The Cellar - Non-Inflammatory Religion Question

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Non-Inflammatory Religion Question

I'm just curious about something in Christianity, and I was hoping one of you could straighten me out. See, there are two ideas that seem to be part of the religion, and that seem contradictory to me. Here goes...

Everything that happens is part of God's plan, and/or is God's direct will.
Satan exerts an influence on the world that directly opposes God.

How do those two fit together? Or am I just confusing facts or mixing denominations or something?

You are beginning to expose the truth; god did not create man, but man created god. Man is imperfect and fucks up some of his stories. That's why a lot of religion doesn't make sense.

Re: Non-Inflammatory Religion Question

Quote:

Originally posted by henry fitch
How do those two fit together? Or am I just confusing facts or mixing denominations or something?

You appear to be mixing denominations.

Quote:

Everything that happens is part of God's plan, and/or is God's direct will.

This sounds like predestination or Calvinism. Essentially, when you are born, it has already been decided whether you are going to heaven or hell. I was raised semi-Catholic. Their view is that we have free will and should choose to do good to be in God's good graces. If you fuck up, you have to confess your sins and make penance to God to be forgiven.

I'm not sure of the other Christian denominations, although Orthodoxy's view should be similar to Catholicism.

Quote:

Satan exerts an influence on the world that directly opposes God.

Again, Catholic view: Satan is a fallen angel, banished from heaven by St. Matthew (IIRC). We are tempted by Satan, and when we do bad, we are turning away from God and giving into Satan.

I personally don't subscribe to this view of Satan, but that's another matter. :)

I"M going to a 'roast a christian' thing soon, i've already got a reasonably long list of questions but i may as well call on the cynical pool that is cellar and see what questions you guys can turn up. Theological not nit-picking stuff, ie fundamental flaws.

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
I"M going to a 'roast a christian' thing soon, i've already got a reasonably long list of questions but i may as well call on the cynical pool that is cellar and see what questions you guys can turn up. Theological not nit-picking stuff, ie fundamental flaws.

When the time comes, you look me up...seriously. :)

One of the posters on kuro5hin.org posted a link the other day to an essay he wrote about religion. It's really damned good.

http://www.scorbett.ca/writings/religion/

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
I"M going to a 'roast a christian' thing soon, ...

Good. I'd want to know what a Christian tastes like. Chicken?

Predestination and Free Willy

Syc, that was St. Michael, the Archangel, who banished Satan from Heaven. St. Matthew was one of the apostles, and writer of one of the books of the New Testament. I'm not sure if he ever met Satan. ;)

You're right about Calvin's theological writings on Predestination and Free Will, which John Calvin considered reconcilable.

Quote:

When the will of a natural man is said to be subject to the power of the devil, so as to be directed by it, the meaning is, not that it resists and is compelled to a reluctant submission, as masters compel slaves to an unwilling performance of their commands; but that, being fascinated by the fallacies of Satan, it necessarily submits itself to all his directions. For those whom the Lord does not favor with the government of His Spirit, He abandons in righteous judgment to the influence of Satan. . . .

When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things have ever been, and perpetually remain, before His eyes, so that to His knowledge nothing is future or past, but all things are present: and present in such a manner that He does not merely conceive of them from ideas formed in His mind, as things remembered by us appear present to our minds, but really beholds and sees them as if actually placed before Him. And this foreknowledge extends to the whole world and to all the creatures. Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He hath determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others.

I think Predesdination and Free Will is what henry fitch is trying to reconcile. These are not so much denominational differences, as theological doctrines, or as dhamsaic would say, made-up stories to rationalize pre-existing beliefs. :)

Re: Predestination and Free Willy

Quote:

Originally posted by Nic Name
Syc, that was St. Michael, the Archangel, who banished Satan from Heaven. St. Mathew was one of the apostles, and writer of one of the books of the New Testament. I'm not sure if he ever met Satan. ;)

Thanks Nic. I figured I was wrong on that, and I knew that it wasn't St. Gabriel.

Quote:

I think Predesdination and Free Will is what henry fitch is trying to reconcile. These are not so much denominational differences, as thelogical doctrines, or as dhamsaic would say, made up stories to rationalize pre-existing beliefs. :)

I used denominations b/c I believe there are a few denominations that still believe in predestination. The Society of Friends comes to mind, though I am unsure.

Ironically, I was driving on Huguenot Ave. in Staten Island last night. :) (More on syc's NYC trip later.)