I don't ride SEPTA anymore, but my fiance does. If SEPTA shuts down here in the city on Thursday, needless to say, it will be a major pain in the ass. From what I've heard and seen so far, it doesn't appear that the Union has much sympathy going for them. Health care costs are going up for everybody, so they'll have to eat it like the rest of us. Not to mention, it would appear that the wounds from 1998 have not completely healed for some. Besides the health care issue, is there anything else they're fighting over?

The health care issue- co-pay levels, specifically- seem to be the main issue, and it's certainly the only one which has gotten any press. Methinks that the main thing the TWU and SEPTA are fighting over is who gets the most face time on TV.

And for <b>this</b> they're striking?
Z

Re: SEPTA Strike
 

KYW radio characterized the talks as productive and moving forward. Is that not the case? Are those characterizations the propaganda from the negotiators or is it an accurate insider's press leak?

Re: Re: SEPTA Strike
 

[quote]Originally posted by tw

Quote:

KYW radio characterized the talks as productive and moving forward. Is that not the case? Are those characterizations the propaganda from the negotiators or is it an accurate insider's press leak?

It sounds true. The union guy said they'd let the public know whether they strike or not around 8 or 9pm. It's now 10:15, so hopefully things are going well.

And if not, break the union. Period. Screw 'em...I don't know of any other transit system that has struck as frequently as SEPTA. Besides, this city is a tad too unionized anyway.

Re: Re: SEPTA Strike
 

Again, from what I understand the only sticking point at this point is the issue of health care. Specifically, it seems that the level of co-payments and deductables are a problem. To quote from the <U>Philadelphia Inquirer</u> article on the subject:

Speaking for myself, I agree with the union that a $250-$500 deductable per year (that's the amount of money that a covered person must pay out-of-pocket before insurance kicks in) is pretty steep, especially in the context of monthly co-payments of between $40-$153. I suppose the entire nub of the problem is negotiating some level of co-pay and deductable which both the union and management find acceptable. But, as we are seeing, that's <b>much</b> easier said than done.

At least there's not as much grandstanding as in '98,
Z

Re: SEPTA Strike
 

SEPTA never had strikes when managed by people who come from mass transit. When real management arrived, they found a system where even new parking for the regional rails was stifled because of cost controls. As Giancomi(sp) stated, every new parking spot is guaranteed new customers. But the previous MBA mentalities of cost accountants and political appointees could not understand.

Having addressed SEPTAs problems rather than blaming the union; no strikes. This is not the exception. Strikes in all industries are typically created by anti-American, anti-innovation, MBA mentalities. And so we have the symptoms of another mass transit management (the current management does not come from where the work gets done) that 1) has quashed all future growth plans, 2) institutes cost controls that only increase costs, and 3) blames unions for their problems.

How many strikes against Ford in the past 20 years now that Ford Motor is managed by car guys instead of MBA mentalities? None. No strikes in 24 years because top management comes from where the work gets done. How many strikes in 20 years against Chrysler? One, for eight hours in Kokomo IN. They struck because they demanded more work.

How many strikes against the MBA dominated GM? 30? 50? 70? A strike two years ago (summer) that shutdown all GM vehicle manufacturing - because GM management are MBAs - people who don't come from where the work gets done - people who use cost controls and therefore increase the cost of a GM car higher than Daimler Benz products - people who then blame the unions for their higher costs. Again: an adversarial management creates the adversarial union.

The same unions works for Ford, Chrysler, and GM - but only the MBA dominated GM has strikes because they are an anti-American company; therefore are quick to blame the unions rather than themselves - top management. GM and Septa have the strikes they deserve - just look at their top management.

Screw the union?
 

As much as I miss SEPTA (i.e., about as much as I miss slush and ice), union-bashing isn't the answer... because management creates the union, through bad hires, worse practices and unreasonable expectations. In every case of a union abusing its power, I can show you management that's a worse grade of human being. (And yes, that most certainly applies to even the most reprehensible laborers on the planet -- i.e., baseball players.)

-- No man who works for another can be said to be overpaid.
Babe Ruth

Re: Screw the union?
 

Unions were a noble idea 100 years ago. And I'm not saying that this situation is completely the union's fault. But...

Dealing with unions today is almost like trying to diffuse a bomb. Every trade has a union, so in some cases, you have many unions (and issues) to deal with. But from what I've seen with the union issues here in Philadelphia over the last 6 months. The company is the strict mother, while the union is the bratty child.

I don't think unions are necessarily needed anymore. The conditions that people work in today are 1000 times better than they were in 1900. (Now, when Verizon workers struck against them, I went with that one. Forced overtime? Pfft!) Truth be told, I don't think non-union drivers would do much worse than union drivers (they'd both suck ;-) ). If anything, a non-union driver has more to lose than a union member (who will cry to his union at the drop of a hat). That non-union might actually be better than a union driver, because there is more at stake.

Unions not needed?
 

I'm reminded of the old "the Devil's biggest trick is to make people believe He doesn't exist" line. Given that we now live in a society where responsibility to shareholders supercedes responsibility to employees, the need for collective bargaining has never been higher.

Are unions a panacea? Hell no, and they are increasingly less relevant to a modern workforce, given that we'l hold 8 jobs on average in our lives, instead of 3. (A number that I'm coming close to doubling at age 31, depending on how far you count back.) I've never worked for a union shop, and given what I do, probably never will; my leverage is created by my essential Free Agent nature.

But if you've chosen a career with limited use outside of your present company, and if said company has behaved poorly enough in the past to create a union, the chances of it continuing to behave in that fashion are a lock. So whether or not the non-union public likes them isn't relevant. They aren't there to make anyone *but* their members happy... and in general, making people who are lower on the food chain happy is a good thing, both for the karma of a nation with non-static classes and the economy.

After all, the last thing anyone would want is for our nation to be led by idiotic children of priviledge, right?

Re: Unions not needed?
 

In an increasingly smarter society (sounds crazy, but more and more people ARE college-educated), logic would say that we should be smart enough to know what is right for workers today. Granted, I said LOGICALLY...but this IS the United States.

Quote:

But if you've chosen a career with limited use outside of your present company, and if said company has behaved poorly enough in the past to create a union, the chances of it continuing to behave in that fashion are a lock. So whether or not the non-union public likes them isn't relevant. They aren't there to make anyone *but* their members happy... and in general, making people who are lower on the food chain happy is a good thing, both for the karma of a nation with non-static classes and the economy.

A lot of the manufacturing jobs are being sent out of this country. The new jobs are low-paying service sector jobs where any attempts at unionizing would easily be thwarted.

If you look at where at lot of the union jobs are now, they are in industries where their services are really essential--teachers, police, transit workers, etc. If these people went on strike, many problems would result...for example, what if the teachers had went on strike. Then, a little boy who was out of school because of the strike is hit by a car trying to cross a street. As crazy as this may sound, technically, the school system and the union could be at fault because they were negligent in fulfilling their job to educate the child. (Yeah, that's a stretch, but it could happen.)

If SEPTA were to go on strike, people could lose their livelihood. We pay taxes to the city of Philadelphia in part to fund the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority. We give them that money and in return, we expect a service to be fulfilled. That is, to take people to and from work, the Sports Complex, school, etc. In addition, we look to SEPTA to know where service is needed, how often it is needed, and how much it will cost for that service...and well as maintaining its facilities and employee base. At the same time, when you are in a "public" job providing a valuable service to the people, then the pressure to do a good job should certainly be there. Perhaps because of the fact that SEPTA is essentially a monopoly (although a public one), there is no real sense of urgency.

So, if a problem arises with that service, then of course, we have a right to know why. And we see it...SEPTA and the union are arguing over health costs, among other things. And while the amount that SEPTA employees pay DOES seem a bit high, it's a rising cost nevertheless. If you don't like what you have to pay, then either a) get your own insurance, which you could probably get cheaper, or b) find another job.

Sure, I want everyone to be happy. I want the TWU to be happy. I want SEPTA to be happy. I want the city of Philadelphia to be happy. I want my fiance to be happy as she rides the El every morning. I am trying to understand the anger of the union, but to me, it looks like they are crybabies. The battles that the unions wage these days seem rather ridiculous and petty.

My $ .05 on that one. I'm sorry, but I just find it ludicrious that the nation's 5th largest city (and 4th largest public transit system) has to endure a possible strike every 3 years...that is just ridiculous.

(end venting)

Quote:

After all, the last thing anyone would want is for our nation to be led by idiotic children of priviledge, right?

*snicker* The poster child is sitting in the Oval Office already...

Re: Re: Unions not needed?
 

"Are being sent out of this country?" My friend, you're about 20 years late on that one. See all those abandoned factory buildings in North Philly? Count most of those as ones where the jobs were sent first down to the American south, and then overseas, in each case because labor costs were much lower in the new location.

The argument is frequently made that unions drove the manufacturers out of the US by raising the cost of doing business too high via higher wages. And the argument has merit. This, however, does not make the entire concept of moving jobs out of the US, decimating neighborhoods and whole cities in the process, any less reprehensible.

Simplistic, yes, and inevitable in a capialist framework,
Z

Re: Re: Re: Unions not needed?
 

What is LAs second largest industry? The largest is entertainment. Second would be aerospace? Electronics? Computers? No. Textiles. Low tech textiles? No textiles were a high tech industry - but not in Philly. Those Philly textile plants are monuments to industries that did not innovate. What happened to a T-shirt that does not require seams up the side? It was developed where a textile industry innovated - new equipment - new methods.

The unions did not drive the industry out. The industry stagnated. They cost controlled using the same obsolete technology equipment. In fact most of the now missing Philly industries are products of cost controls. For example, where was the Sony Trinitron developed? Philly. What happened to all those great RCA Victor products? Cost controls. Ever try Campbell's greasy soup vs Progresso - which is what Campbells should have created?

Unions did not create those losses. The unions simply demanded parity for work performed. Had management not stifled innovations, then those jobs would have been saved.

In a graduate class, a Boeing employee from Seattle, and in Philly for a few years - was appauled at how myopic the local Boeing was. How difficult it was, compared to west coast Boeing, to accomplish anything. We now see the result - Osprey - which will be canceled because of serious managment problem in that Philadelphia Boeing facility - including lies and coverups concerning failure rates.

85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. That applies to rows of abandoned N Philly industries.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Unions not needed?
 

Not to be West Coast much longer. I've heard Chicago and Dallas being thrown up, but I wonder if they're eyeing their former MD digs in St. Louis...

Whoever gets it is landing a coup...

Ancient History; Same People; Same Problem
 

Old History. Same people. Same problem. We just forget what we read 6 years ago. Do you remember this?

From the Philadelphia Inquirer 17 April 1995 page 1:
" [Undercofler] protected Gambaccini from all the pressure to spend the [SEPTA] money in a political way rather than the proper way.
That pressure has increased in 1991, when the legislature added four seats to the SEPTA board to be filled by Democratic and Republican leaders in each house. The 11 other board members are appointed by the governor, the mayor of Philly, and elected officials in Montgomery, Delaware, Chester, and Bucks Counties.
The pressure intensified in 1993, when Undercofler left the board. That year, Western Penna politicains mounted a campaign to get SEPTA to award a huge contract for new subway cars for the Market-Frankford line to a Pittsburgh company - even though the firm was not the low bidder.
The contract award was delayed 9 months while state legislators lobbied for AEG Westinghouse... SEPTA was forced to hold hearings, do additional studies and hire an outside lawyer - at a cost of $90,000 - to offer an opinion. {Typical of politician who need lawyers to solve technical problems}
In the end, the board did what the law required: It gave the $285 million contract to the low bidder, ABB Traction of Elmira Heights NY.
"That's what he has to put up with. ... The battle over those railcars was very political. A lot of money was wasted. A lot of time was wasted. I think highly of Gambaccini. What gets in Gambaccini's way, in my view, is politics."
...During the strike, Harry Lombardo, president of the TWU Local 234, railed against "fat cats" on the SEPTA board, called one SEPTA manager "a $100k-a-year pimp" and said the agency was squandering millions through sweetheart contracts.
But Lombardo never attacked Gambaccini or Roberts. And that was no accident, he said.
"I respect what they've done. I have a lot of empathy for them." Lombardo said. "Why do you think I didn't bang Howard and Lou through this entire process?" "

About 2 weeks ago, I sent this letter to the TWU:

To whom it may concern:

I am writing your union in regards to a possible strike that could shut down the city division of SEPTA.

I realize that one of the main purposes of a union is to protect workers. However, I feel that a strike by Local 234 would actually hurt its members. If the local strikes, hundreds of thousands of lives in the city of Philadelphia and the suburbs (including mine) would be greatly disrupted. Some people may choose permanent alternatives to using SEPTA. If those people quit riding SEPTA, then SEPTA would lose money and would be forced to cut jobs and service. Along these lines, many may point the finger at the union for a strike. This may cause others to be wary of joining a union in the future.

I hope that your union and SEPTA will be able to come to terms by Wednesday night. Although nobody likes to lose out, compromise is always the best solution. In the end, a strike would make commuters the real losers.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

T L Blastenbrei
Philadelphia

And this reply came today:


Dear Mr. T L Blastenbrei,

Thank you for your letter to Local 234 TWU. As you know we have settled our contract with SEPTA and did so without a strike. Our members work hard to provide quality and safe service to our passengers. Local 234 understands quite well how important mass transit is to this region. We are glad we came to an agreement without a strike.

Again, Thank you for your comments

Mick Ostrowski for Local 234

I found it interesting that I got this AFTER the strike threat...