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-   -   May I have your recommendations for buying a TASER, please? (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=8161)

Tonchi 04-21-2005 12:55 AM

May I have your recommendations for buying a TASER, please?
 
You guys could probably give me some really good advice on this subject. I need to know what I should give my best friend in the way of a Taser or stun gun. She is being stalked by her biological father, of all people, because she refuses to give him money or come back to live with him. She was adopted by her aunt many years ago after being rescued from that man, and she wants nothing to do with him. We believe he plans to kidnap her, and either get ransom money out of her aunt or sell her to his friends. He is shadowing her everywhere, he bragged to another aunt about it. My friend is very small, less than 5 feet, but she has already taken self-defense classes and some karate instruction. She can't take a gun with her to school or the gym and obviously somebody can't be walking with her every minute of the day. What kind of personal defense weapon could she get under these circumstances? It has to be concealable. Your input is greatly appreciated.

wolf 04-21-2005 01:26 AM

How old is she and what state is she in? Actually, don't tell me what state she's in. But you or she will need to research the applicable state's laws regarding personal defense.

I don't believe that the police style line and dart tasers are legal for the general public, so anything that would even be potentially available would be the direct contact type.

I don't know enough about those to offer any useful advice or product recommendations.

Have the local police been contacted about this? Is there any legal recourse that she can take? Protection from Abuse orders often don't work ... but if she has one and he violates it and she uses some means of self defense, no matter what it might be, she may have better standing in court if she gets charged.

Tonchi 04-21-2005 02:01 AM

She's in the Philippines, Wolf. Manila. There is no law there, no justice, and your family is your worst enemy. If you are filthy rich, you can hire somebody to kill your tormenter or persuade him it is not worth his risk, but she does not fall into that category. I checked and people are carrying Tasers, and it is not on the restricted list to mail one to her. The problem she faces is the town is a slum of millions of people, very easy for a pursuer to get lost in the crowd, and even in a car you move only feet per minute so it is easy for somebody to follow you.

Almost forgot, she's 31. But she is very petite. Small but brave, I call her my Little Rambo.

wolf 04-21-2005 02:29 AM

Emigration may be her only viable option.

BrianR 04-21-2005 05:29 AM

I have a friend who is from there...I will ask her if she has any ideas...stay tuned!

Tonchi 04-21-2005 05:40 AM

We had all the paperwork for a student visa, she was accepted in an American college, and they refused to let her out. Thank you Homeland Security for protecting the world from this girl instead of dealing with the people at the American Embassy in Manila who are selling visas for $10,000 to people who will go on welfare once they arrive to join their already illegal families.

Thanks for your offer, Brian. But if your friend is Filipino-born, she will tell you the same things I already know. The country is hopelessly lawless and corrupt. If you have money, you can make your problems go away. If you don't, you have to find a way to protect yourself because nobody else will do it. That's why I am thinking that a Taser might be her best solution, she can't just shoot the creep or the police will come and get her instead.

mrnoodle 04-21-2005 10:13 AM

Couple shots from a can of OC-10 will deter all but the most wigged out PCP-head. I don't recommend a Taser. She'd only get one shot, and if she misses, she's in trouble.

OC-10 is pepper spray for those who might not know. Important to get the stuff designed for people-spraying, and not the bear stuff. I can't remember why at the moment, but it's something I heard at the gun shop. Maybe capsican content.

wolf 04-21-2005 10:35 AM

I don't think that pepperspray can be mailed overseas. (although the thought of a can exploding in the cargo compartment of a jet is somewhat amusing to me)

lookout123 04-21-2005 12:35 PM

wolf - you are sick. sick, i say. and it amuses me too.

i vote for a handgun. you have more than one try and you don't have to come into direct contact. there is a carry option for every situation.

mrnoodle 04-21-2005 01:02 PM

I initially said handgun, too, but the Philippines have extremely restrictive gun laws. They used to issue carry permits, but the president revoked them. Now, Filipinos are limited to two firearms -- a shotgun or .22 rifle and a handgun, both of which must be licensed, and they're not allowed to have them outside the home (even for transport), without a seperate license specifically for that purpose. Even then, they can't be carried as protection in cars. They have no constitutional protection in this regard, so the chances of her gun being taken away are pretty good in the long term. An article I found while googling "Philippines+gun+laws" says that half of the 1 million legal firearms owners failed to renew their licenses, and were ordered to surrender their firearms to the police.

Of course your friend could buy one in about 10 minutes from a street hood or one of the gangs of bandits that run around in the hills there, if they didn't shoot her first. I guess the government forgot to add "this means you, criminal" to the end of their law.

breakingnews 04-21-2005 01:31 PM

Tasers (made by Taser International) are being by law enforcement used all up and down Asia. The attitude toward stun guns there is very lax compared with here in the U.S., where the folks at Amnesty International have their panties all in a knot because people are getting killed by these weapons. Why they're dying is unknown, but each story I've read about "accidental" deaths seems to suggest Taser misuse.

Anyway, buy your citizens Taser <a href="http://www.taser.com/self_defense/index.htm">here</a>. They're fully legal in Calif., and have restrictions in a handful of other states. I'm not sure about mailing overseas, but the company says more countries are approving Tasers. They've been OKed for use on passenger flights in Korea.

Tonchi 04-21-2005 02:08 PM

Thank you all for your well-considered input so far. Yes, we checked it out and I can buy the Taser or other device here and ship it to the Philippines without penalty, provided it goes by Global Express Mail so that it will stay out of the hands of the Filipino post office (which considers the mail from citizens as their personal shopping cart). She bought some Mace before and carries it in her hand everywhere, even while walking around their family compound, but she has never used it so far and we don't know if that was the best option against somebody who grabs you from behind. Hence the Taser or stun gun, which she might reach backwards and aim at the crotch of anybody trying to wrestle her into a car. We found some that look like cellphones on the net, but she tells me that gangs run up to you in the malls and tear a cellphone out of your hands so that's not the best idea. Nobody really cares if she terminates this guy, but the way it works is the police rush up and arrest the person who defended themselves and they rot in the legal process until a high enough bribe is paid to get them out.

If pepper spray is really the most effective protection, how can I determine the best choice to get for her? Is there a name brand which is better or more reliable? And would she put herself down while using it at close quarters? I have been gassed during protests at the Pentagon and Berkley and that was not even at close range, so I can imagine how it could backfire in a tussle.

The one thing this gal has going for her is she does not give up. Typical Filipinos are completely unnerved by a tiny female who refuses to be subdued and deferential. But a stalker is something else, and he might bring along some friends.

mrnoodle 04-21-2005 02:29 PM

If you go the pepper spray route, they'll ship to the Philippines (at least, I didn't see anything to the contrary on their website).

Counter Assault is the name of the company, and the link goes directly to the personal protection page of the website. I'd recommend the fogger rather than the stream one, personally. The stream version will go further, but people tend to spray too much of it, and the active ingredient gets bound up in the medium and isn't as effective as a fine mist. Just hold your breath, shut your eyes, and give him a 2-3 second burst, Binaca style. Then run. That way you don't get a sneezing fit, and you can watch the attacker whimper and roll around from a safe distance while you call the police.


Kind of rethinking the Taser idea...if she's competent with one, it would most definitely have a more immediate effect...

Tonchi 04-21-2005 05:14 PM

They don't exactly have stores that teach you how to use a Taser in the Philippines. In fact, if a woman walked in and said she wanted to know how they worked, she would probably be ordered to leave by the male clerk. It would also be nice if she could get one and practice on the next squatter who tries to climb over her gate, but like I said, the police would then have an excuse to arrest her instead. The fact is she probably will not find out whether she knows how to use any of these items until she actually does it.

Come to think of it, the slimeball would probably drop from shock if she was the one who attacked HIM; he probably remembers how he could bounce her off the walls when she was younger and has no idea how much she has changed since then.

Beestie 04-21-2005 05:47 PM

CRC brake cleaner. One shot in the face and down he goes. Don't get the green can - it has to be the red can. They come in small "toolbox" sizes - the 16oz can is too big. I got this info from someone I believe to be reliable. And you can always come up with a lame excuse for why you are carrying it around. I used to live close enough to the Phillipines to know that it is a lawless jungle - esp. for females. Good luck to your friend.

But, I think she at least needs to follow wolf's advice and at least make a gesture to the authorities - even it its useless, they can't say she didn't try.

http://www.iboats.com/mall/image/ven...ig/38014_0.jpg

BigV 04-21-2005 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie
CRC brake cleaner. One shot in the face and down he goes. Don't get the green can - it has to be the red can. They come in small "toolbox" sizes - the 16oz can is too big. I got this info from someone I believe to be reliable. And you can always come up with a lame excuse for why you are carrying it around. I used to live close enough to the Phillipines to know that it is a lawless jungle - esp. for females. Good luck to your friend.

But, I think she at least needs to follow wolf's advice and at least make a gesture to the authorities - even it its useless, they can't say she didn't try.

http://www.iboats.com/mall/image/ven...ig/38014_0.jpg

I second this very inventive solution. From personal experience.

I was changing the brakes and had the drum off the car once and in the process of cleaning the cruddy, muddy, greasy blech off the parts, I managed to spray myself in the eyes. I was cleaning a bearing race and the part made a neat U-turn of the stream of chemicals right into my face. I never saw a neater trick in the cartoons to return an attackers fire. Damn. Anyway, my shade tree mechanical comedy show was immediately preempted by several minutes with the garden hose in my face. This shit will do the trick, it's cheap, innocuous, shoots a long strong stream, and effective. Except for the effective part, I suggest you go to the local auto parts store and buy a can a try it out for your self. You don't even need the little coffee stirrer nozzle to get the right effect.

Tonchi 04-21-2005 06:15 PM

Cool! Thanks for the hint, Beestie, I'll definitely pass that on. She could stash a can of that in every room of the house and in her car and the police couldn't say anything.

As for "reporting him to the authorities", such as they are, I told her to go to the Barangay chairman of her district. It appears that it's not going to help, because she was told that until he actually lays hands on her there is no proof of bad intentions, and besides, he was seen in an apparently friendly chat with one of her other aunts outside their gate. Told you that your family is often your worst enemy over there, and it was not her aunt's mother who died in that creep's house. No doubt her aunt will tell her she behaved in a very shameful manner if she actually manages to get the best of her tormenter.

I wish we could be talking about immigration options instead, even in her household everybody agrees that it's the only way for my friend to have any kind of life :(

BrianR 04-22-2005 09:30 AM

if she also carries a cigarette lighter in addition to the CRC, I'd go for it. It allows two levels of response. I've done this with wasp killer and it's damn effective. Psychologically, the fear of fire is deeply rooted in all living things except moths. Failing that, having the hair scorched off one's head, eyebrows and all, will humiliate the male for a good long time. Not much worse than that in Asia. Good luck.

Brian the Magnificent (just wondered what that would look like in print)

Catwoman 04-22-2005 09:51 AM

I often think there's a simple solution to any problem. But when it comes to this... survival... you do what you have to. I don't really have anything to add.

BigV 04-22-2005 12:44 PM

brake cleaner + lighter = http://images.google.com/images?q=wd40%20flamethrower

more personal experience

jaguar 04-22-2005 01:04 PM

deoderant works just as well and is about as innocious as you can get.
but it's not exactly something you whip out. However if someone comes towards you a 1m fireball is a good deterrant.

Beestie 04-22-2005 01:32 PM

Honestly, the lighter is a cool idea and all, but in an abduction situation I would seriously discourage trying it. She'll be damn lucky if she has time to retrieve the can, figure out which way its aimed, rotate accordingly and squeeze off a stream without having to use up another hand (her only free one), fumble for bic lighter (small and hard to pick out of a crowded purse), orient it correctly, ignite it and line the two up in the direction of the attacker and squeeze of a fireball.

Keep it simple.

One shot of BrakeCleen in the face - aim for the upper lip and not the eyes. The point is to induce unconciousness. If you only hit his eyes, he's still awake and can lunge forward and still grab you but if any of that stuff gets in his lungs, he'll drop like a wet dishrag and be out cold for a good while. Besides, if you hit his upper lip some will probably get in his eyes anyway but you could easily hit his eyes and completely miss his nose.

Its not lethal - he'll wake up after a while with a migraine.

Other than playing around in the garage, I'd pass on the deodorant idea - not all of them work as flamethrowers and I don't think any of them would incapacitate an abductor - none of them contain solvents in sufficient concentrations.

Tonchi 04-22-2005 05:04 PM

You guys have given us some great input, and now we have a shopping list for this weekend. Special thanks to BigV for taste-testing one of the solutions!

As tempting as the flamethrower sounds (in her opinion, it would be a very appropriate finale for the guy who was responsible for her mother's death and very nearly her own), when you are always in crowd of thousands of people, even shoulder-to-shoulder, it really would not be possible to execute. And she would instantly be branded as a terrorist and arrested and then we would never get her a visa. We think the best way to go is with the brake cleaner in the car and house and a pepper spray in her purse, then a palm-sized stun gun goes everywhere with her, even to bed. All of those items can be used more than once, and at close quarters without taking out half the pedestrians around her. We have also spoken to one of the local ambulating beauticians, who has a cell phone, about casing the house occasionally to see if he is hanging around the gates. My friend has spent too much of her life locked up inside those gates already, and she wants her life back.

BigV 04-22-2005 05:09 PM

:blush: :blush: Uhhh... thanks. Just for the record, I was truthful in my post, but I am not the only one. From here:
I cleaned up the oil pan, finding some more chain bits and random chunks of sprocket teeth (I'm sure glad I did this). While I cleaned, Scotty removed the bottom end bearings, finding a few with some slight scores and one just worn thru the silver coating. But overall, they didn't look too bad and the crank looked beautiful. I ran out for some STP oil treatment to use as prelub and installed the new connecting rod bearings while Scotty finished lapping the exhaust valves. We did experience a slight disaster when Scott bravely used his eye to keep an errant squirt of brake cleaner from getting on Bob's tools. That prompted a quick trip to an eye bath station. He was really hurting, that stuff really stings.

lookout123 04-22-2005 05:11 PM

if the guy is that much of a threat, and nobody really cares if he were to meet his demise... surely in a relatively lawless society it should be fairly easy to find someone who specializes in "disappearing" people, for a nominal charge. i'm just sayin'.

Tonchi 04-22-2005 05:31 PM

You are absolutely right, and in fact we think the reason this creep has a sudden fatherly interest in her again is because some people he ran afoul of have a contract out on him. He could either be planning to get money for ransom in order to pay off his pursuers or to try to extort money from my friend in order to be able to hide. If this guy "disappeared" it would make more than one person happy, but the fact is that my friend would not willingly harm any life form. She is a very decent person, although she has learned that being decent does not mean you are weak and helpless and men can do whatever they want to you. Wishing somebody dead is one thing and making it happen is something different where she is not going to go. I guess what it all comes down to is she's repulsed by what she sees the Filipinos are like, which is no small part of the problem she has being stuck there.

lookout123 04-22-2005 05:38 PM

well, if she can get to mexico, she can just walk across the damn border into the states and be one of the millions of illegals who...

Beestie 04-22-2005 07:35 PM

One thing I don't get is this. Earlier you indicated that the "wealthy" filipinos could buy some fake docs for 10 grand and easily get off the island. I gathered that your point is that there is no way she or her family could afford that. So, if they are not able to scrape 10k together then why would anyone kidnap her for ransom?

Tonchi 04-22-2005 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie
One thing I don't get is this. Earlier you indicated that the "wealthy" filipinos could buy some fake docs for 10 grand and easily get off the island. I gathered that your point is that there is no way she or her family could afford that. So, if they are not able to scrape 10k together then why would anyone kidnap her for ransom?

She COULD have gotten a visa that way. We had an agreement with a lady who runs a "travel agency" that for $5,000 she would guarantee the visa. The way they do it is you pay the "travel agent" and they make out all your papers. When you go to the embassy for your interview, they are expecting you and mark your name and send you to a specific consul who has already been paid off. He grants the papers and you go home to celebrate.

But when I saw the way the lady was doing the papers (showing that my friend owned a non-existent company, etc. to prove she had ties in the Phils.), I cancelled the agreement and we went for a student visa instead. We had all the papers and approvals on our end, but in the time between when we started and the time when she submitted the petition the Philippines had paid off the terrorists in Iraq to rescue one of their citizens to the tune of $6 million (not one penny for schools but millions for extortion) and dropped out of the farsically-named Coalition of the Willing. So to get even, Homeland Security decreed that all visas to leave the Philippines would automatically be rejected and no reason was to be given to the applicant. They were ordered to tell the applicants "you do not qualify" and send them away (but keeping your fees of course). You can apply once a month if you want to spend the money, but they will never tell you why you are being rejected. This was actually put on the government website here.

The embassy used to give detailed explanations to those who got rejected, so they would know what they were not doing correctly in order to qualify, but no longer. Hence the doubling of the bribe needed to pocket that visa. In fact, that same day another relative told my friend that she had been a fool to back out of the "travel agency" deal and that she herself could recommend a consul who approved all the people SHE knew. Still in shock, my friend sat there and was regaled with stories about how the money was laundered to get it to the obliging consul.

It's not that the aunt who adopted her CAN'T pay that bribe. She could, but it is not in her self interest so she won't. It was her plan that my friend should continue to live with herself and her sisters, as a spinster for the rest of her days, waiting on these women hand and foot, being their driver, and nursing them through their final illness. This was "what God intended for you to be", and they consider her very egotistical, ungrateful and selfish to want to leave them. You do not try to reason with these people, they are not even on the same planet that we are.

So what we DID do was actually start a company. We are selling CDs and other fan items for the club we both belong to on the internet. When we have paid off the inventory costs and cleared $2,000, we plan to turn it over to a Filipino lawyer in San Francisco who specializes in resolving "impossible" immigration cases. We broke even on our books last month, and within days "Voldemort" showed up. It seems like no matter which way you turn in that country, there is somebody trying to block your way.

As to who this creep would plan to extort the ransom? Thanks to one of those brain-dead aunts, he thinks his daughter has a rich American benefactor. So if the aunt who adopted her won't give him money, he probably thinks he can get it out of me. It does not have to make sense, that's the way they think over there. US$500 is a FORTUNE to them. And I don't even want to tell you what else he might do with her if he got another offer.

Beestie 04-22-2005 11:08 PM

Gotcha. That's a very unfortunate situation and I wish you and your friend the best of luck. I'm not supposing that I have all the answers but Canada might be a better option than the US at this point. Getting into the US from Canada is considerably easier and Canada isn't a bad place to wait it out.

OnyxCougar 04-22-2005 11:37 PM

Sounds like anywhere else is better than there. Good luck.

On a similar (but much less violent) note, Kelove is coming home may 4.

mrnoodle 05-04-2005 11:48 AM

This wasn't worth a new thread, but it's good for a snicker

wolf 05-04-2005 12:00 PM

That is good indeed. It's important research, though. We've had one taser death (2 days after use, and there was cocaine involved) and another guy who had to spend a week on a Cardiac Care Unit to keep him from dying in our hospital. Anecdotally it seems a good call to blame the cocaine.

BrianR 05-04-2005 05:38 PM

I have to side with PETA on this. I don't see the advantage of using pigs. We have so many criminals, after all. What did the pig ever do to deserve that?

Deaths from Taser use should never happen because the Taser should not have to be used. A police officer says Stop! you stop. that's it. Period. Don't run, fight or argue.
If you are placed under arrest, don't struggle, cooperate. It's easier that way. If a police officer wants to arrest you, he (or she) will. It may take several more officers to do it, but they will do it. One way or another.

And drugs shouldn't be a factor because you shouldn't use drugs at all. Drugs are bad, mmmkay? If you use drugs and then have to be detained, you deserve whatever happens to you, including dying. The drugs can do that all by themselves, you don't need police to kill you. If one is willing to flirt with the Grim Reaper by using illegal drugs, they shouldn't be surprised when it flirts right back.

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

xoxoxoBruce 05-04-2005 09:25 PM

Quote:

It was her plan that my friend should continue to live with herself and her sisters, as a spinster for the rest of her days, waiting on these women hand and foot, being their driver, and nursing them through their final illness.
Sounds like a good plan.
All she has to do is make sure she's in the will then arrange the "final illness". :eyebrow:

wolf 05-05-2005 01:39 AM

With respect the taser deaths ... every single police officer or correctional officer who is certified to use the taser has been shot with the taser.

Sometimes more than once.

There are not a lot of dead police officers.

Something other than the taser deployment is killing these people. QED.

Tonchi 05-05-2005 02:42 AM

Update on the security precautions! The only brake cleaner available seems to be the Chinese counterfeit gunk, in a can as big as a construction worker's thermos bottle. She finally found something of quality in an expat store. Her aunt wants to know why she needs so much brake cleaner, but we ain't talking ;) The pepper spray and stunner goes in the next care package.

As for Bruce's comment about "final illness", you have no idea how cogent that is. Two things usually happen to elderly people in the Phils, and neither is pleasant, which is why they plan ahead to have somebody bound to them inextricably as caretakers. First scenario is that after years of either viciously abusing or irrationally spoiling their children, one of them tricks the parent into signing a power of attorney. Then the next thing the old people know, somebody is evicting them from the house which the son or daughter sold after cleaning out all the bank accounts. That happened to at least 2 of my friend's grandfather's siblings. The other endgame is that the elderly parent has a spouse who basically cuts them off from care, even feeding, once they get too feeble to stand up and fight. Usually by that time a lover has been moved into the house, or the stronger spouse has taken up with a live-in servant who was hired to care for the sick spouse. Together, the lovers eliminate the spouse by neglect, then seize all the assets, cutting off any of the children who might be protesting. Then the servant/lover quickly does away with the old reprobate and ends up with EVERYTHING, sometimes accomplished by moving in their entire family to take over the house and crowd out the original owner and master. As the world turns, the Philippines is not a healthy place to grow old. But you know what? The arrogant and cruel behavior of those people over many years is what makes even their own children plan for years to get rid of them. It is almost like they guarantee that because of their behavior at the top of the food chain, they will ultimately be devoured.

russotto 05-05-2005 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianR
I have to side with PETA on this. I don't see the advantage of using pigs. We have so many criminals, after all. What did the pig ever do to deserve that?

Better we should use police officers.

Quote:

Deaths from Taser use should never happen because the Taser should not have to be used. A police officer says Stop! you stop. that's it. Period. Don't run, fight or argue.
If I think the cop is going to beat the shit out of me anyway, I'm going to take my chances. Better to take the beating after an attempt to escape than, during the beating, to regret NOT trying to escape.

mrnoodle 05-05-2005 12:20 PM

Your beating will be far, far worse if you endanger the lives of the officers and innocent bystanders by making them chase you. Once you've demonstrated that a nice "Please stop and put your hands up" isn't enough to convince you, they have to decrease the niceness of their asking.

or something.


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