Putin needs a cold war, an enemy he can blame for any unpopular moves and shortages at home.
Also to convince as many leaders between him and the Mediterranean as possible that he is from their hood, and will always be close by to be their savior not us. He can coerce them into thinking my friend's enemy is my enemy, when Trump blusters.

Hey UT, I just want to say this at the outset.

Parsing is reading for comprehension, for understanding. It's not a bad thing, despite Trump's epic badness at doing it. Words do matter, and he murders them on the daily.

Now, having parried your attack on the value of "parsing", let's talk about his most recent failures to communicate.

How about President Trump's recent, teleprompted address from the Oval Office. (The urge to start this next sentence with "how do you explain..." is strong but horribly unfair. You obviously have opinions, which I respect, but I know you can't explain him. I won't ask you to.) I'll just point out that (*again*) he said things that were just plain wrong. His wrong statements caused immediate trouble, not like "Covfeve". It is ABSURD of him to say the things he says.

I have opinions too about why he talks like this. He's out of his depth in this role. There are aspects about it that he likes, the power, there's a lot of power, the trappings and the attention, craptons of that too. But there is also responsibility to do the work--ALL THE WORK. And he just can't do it. And his other character flaws, like valuing loyalty over everything else, including competence, prevent--no, cripple--him in his attempts to delegate important responsibilities he won't/can't/is oblivious to execute himself.

And the words, jfc, the words just won't stop. He's absurd, he's a clown.

Did you see his performance at the CDC earlier this week? What was the "emotional appeal" of “As of right now and yesterday, anybody that needs a test [can have one], that’s the important thing, and the tests are all perfect, like the letter was perfect, the transcription was perfect.” The emotional impact I feel is one being in the presence of someone who's relentless self-promotion shines a spotlight on his insecurity. I feel like we should be talking about medical facts and wtf does his letter his call, have to do with fuckall?

He also talked about how his uncle was a super genius and that that's probably why all the doctors at the CDC asked him in surprise about how he knows so much about this?!?!? Here's a quote, so I'm not just putting words in his mouth. “I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it. Every one of these doctors say, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should’ve done that instead of running for president.” Emotional impact: shock, fear, jesus take the wheel, this is the sound of someone who can't stop boasting.

His comments are absurd on their face. This is not the time for absurdity, he already rsvp'ed "no" to the White House Correspondents' Dinner. That's where he should be clowning and self deprecating. Right now, he's on the fucking job. But he's not working.

I am not familiar with "post-modernism", but it's clear that by your description, it's kind of bullshit. And Kellyanne Conway deserves credit in my mind for flinging it into our public discourse when she talked about "alternative facts". Her talk then was bullshit. The idea of "alternative facts" is bullshit. A fact is just one thing, if it's more than one thing, it's not a fact.

...


pausing for casuistry


....

Ok, we good?

UT, you're an apologist for President Trump, free country, takes all types, agree to disagree, etc etc. I hold no animus toward you. I consider you a friend. But when you float the idea that truth and facts and words are more malleable and less concrete than back in the pre-modernist day, you give the reader, and maybe yourself, some kind of cover, a fig leaf to cover President Trump's shame. The shame is there, even if you cover your ears and eyes with the fig leaf. Lord knows the aren't enough fig leaves in the world to cover his absurdity.

Yeah, how about that? I absolutely knew you'd ask about that.

It was a written, teleprompted speech and is therefore entirely appropriate for parsing the shit out of.

What I was objecting to earlier was parsing the shit out of conversational, colloquial speech and even jokes.

Right.

Like the CDC presser. Your thoughts are welcome.

Not to mention the fact that he murdered the words in the Oval Office presentation.

No shit

You don't actually get me at all. It's fine.

like I said
Should I not be trying to parse your words and look for the emotional appeal instead to gain understanding?

Help a brother out, eh?

edited to add:

anyone who tries to defend or justify or explain President Trump's straight-up bizarre remarks has been dealt a shit hand. He is not living up to my standards for performance in the office, he's not even living up to my standards for communicating in English. My standards. But his words affect more than just me. If it wasn't so serious, it'd be comedy.

You're looking for a fight and I'm so not interested in that.

So why did he get so many things wrong? He said trade between Europe and American would halt. Then adults from his administration corrected that.

He said all passenger travel between Europe and America would halt. Then adults from his administration said that would not apply to American citizens.

He could not even be honest when reading from a teleprompter?

He ignored a million+ missing test kits. And then later said (a direct quote when pressed by an NBC reporter) that he would not take responsibility for that. What adult does not see a glaring irresponsible mental state?

Eventually one must admit that this president lies daily. Since that is what he did routinely even 30 years ago - as so often reported in NYC local news. We are not talking about a president who works for America, American allies, or the advancement of mankind. His entire life has only been about advancing The Don at the expense of all others. That was obvious even decades ago.

He can murder someone on Fifth Ave and still get elected. He knows how easily some can be brainwashed. That was him even saying so.

He cannot take responsibility. And said so. Meanwhile Truman said "the buck stops here". Where is here? Extremists do not hear - or understand.

Responsibility must lie on those evil Mexican, immigrants, or slanted eye people who are American allies. We should blame them. Since hate can get a president reelected.

No fight. Only facts. Same facts said Fukushima nuclear reactors had melted down. Which was also denied by ignoring facts. Show me one fact that says Trump is presidential material. Clearly not a fight. Facts that an adult would discuss using logic from a pre-frontal cortex.

UT, others requested facts to support your beliefs. Post them and not just empty denials. Two glaring lies cited in a first two paragraphs. Please explain why that is a responsible leader. Would Lincoln have lied like that?

I hear of legislation in Congress to print a $101 counterfeit dollar bill with Trump's picture on it. To cut costs, he intends to have them printed by his good friend Kim of N Korea. It that true or another rumor promoted by his swampland supporters?

The President suggested that there's a chance that injecting disinfectant will do a number on the virus, especially in the lungs, knocks it out in like a minute.

The whole world that saw and heard his remarks was horrified. Even people dumb enough to ingest disinfectant called the health department to fact check what they'd heard.

Then he said he was being sarcastic. Uh huh, riiiiiight. For the record, that was sarcasm.

Then in a fit of pique at being unable to flush this turd down the memory hole, he said he was gonna stop doing these <\goverment funded campaign performances coronavirus response press briefings because the press was asking too many hostile questions. GO GO GO FREE PRESS! #EPICFLOUNCE

But, it was too good to be true. His love of free press, I mean free media coverage compelled him back to the podium and the absurdity continues.

******

How about a quick informal poll? Anyone here think he was being sarcastic at the time he made his remarks about injecting disinfectant? Please post below.

JFC, his absurdity is contagious. The Vice President is infected too.

Pence recently traveled to The Mayo Clinic, but did not wear a mask during his visit, despite being informed well in advance of his visit that everyone in the hospital is to wear a mask to reduce the spread of the coronavirus. Pence said that he did not wear a mask because It is absurd to suggest that wearing a mask inhibits one's ability to do what he said he wanted to do. What a liar.

Even Trump was more honest (what with no filter and all) by saying he just doesn't see it for himself.

The larger issue is the appearance of the reality that both of these men are not leading by example and at a minimum, missing an opportunity do so. Another failure of leadership.

You have the option of running for office yourself to set the example; your amiable phiz would make a gift for the nation's cartoonists, no?

Trump is as inarticulate as all get out. It's a pain to listen to him speak and try to figure out what it is he's actually trying to communicate.

I think he was serious about the concept he was trying to present: Introducing something with known topical antiviral properties into the body.

I think it was naive of him to use the words inject and disinfectant, even if sarcastically, and not realize the general public would associate that with using something like Clorox or Lysol for needle injection.

Can we use a topical disinfectant for injection into the body? Yes, we do that. We can use vinegar (acetic acid), a disinfectant, topically in ear canals to treat infection. We also inject it into the bladder through a catheter to treat infection there. The basic premise is viable.

Trump, not having an aptitude for medicine, doesn't understand how this premise is limited in scope of application (he referenced the lungs) and the microorganisms it's used against (primarily bacteria).

So unless someone is prepared to run for the highest office, they shouldn't complain or criticise the current holders of said office?

All perfectly understandable - if he was some Joe in a pub espousing this shit to his mates: he is the President of the USA - his words carry weight in the world and have an impact. This is life and death stuff. He should stfu with his half understood musings and let the Doctors lead.

he never stops talking about fake news, but he is one of the prime vectors for misinformation in the world today

I struggled to understand the appeal of Bush to voters, back in the day, but I could, if I tilted my head a little and squinted a bit, kind of see what they were seeing.

I look at Trump, and I really, really struggle to see what it is that his followers like. It is beyond baffling. Every other sentence he utters is a bare faced lie, often contradicting the previous barefaced lie he just delivered with a straight face. Not like a lie another politician might speak, which has some kind of credibility and needs to be uncovered - just a straight to the camera, bald as you like, absolute lie that sits glowing in the sun for all to see.

He shows zero leadership - he can't muster the slightest hint of the statesman, General, or public servant even when handed the perfect opportunity to do so. He accepts zero responsibility for anything, openly casts blame on his underlings and throws his friends under the bus without a second's hesitation.

Faced with a death toll in the tens of thousands, he projects partisan triumphalism and crows about how well he is doing while showing zero empathy for those lost or bereaved.

All the while stirring up civil discontent and protest over lockdown restrictions.

How is he both the head of the government and the rallying call against government all at the same time?

I can only assume at this stage that for most of his still loyal supporters this is the sunk cost fallacy in action.

There is a subset boiling with resentment who want the libs to pay. There is a subset who want a "strongman". There are rich folks who want to continue the GOP experiment with tax free living in a highly stratified society. There are the religious (abortion) and religious nuts (end-times). There are Red Team players who see center-right Biden and think of Communism.

What happened is by soaking in our own propaganda we lost the Cold War we won. We've been at war so long we have no vision for civilization. We've trained ourselves to believe government is bad at everything and we've elected our own proof. We need to repeat a year to catch up with the class.:dunce: Unfortunately, this is that year and repeating it is gonna suck.

My father's a lukewarm supporter-in-denial. He's the type who 1.) can't admit he's been conned, and 2.) hates Hillary with the fiery passion of a thousand red-hot suns. Ever since the Clinton presidency, just absolutely hates her. He's particularly obsessed with the title of her first book, "It Takes a Village," which he sees as a promise of Venezuelan socialism that is as firm or firmer than Hitler's promises in "Mein Kampf," which he often compares it to.

He largely avoids talking about politics these days, which is how I know he knows in his heart that Trump is an indefensible disaster--never in my life have I not heard my father talk politics. The two themes he sticks with, when he does talk, are "I don't care about what he says, I only care about what he does," and "Hillary would have been worse."

I honestly don't think anybody would be worse, regardless of political persuasion.

It really is so strange to see people who clearly love their nation and have pride in the traditional values and virtues of that nation, choose someone so lacking in those values and virtues. I'd understand it more if he was a self made man - that at least would speak to the ethic of hard work and independence that always seemed such a strong component of the American culture - but he's an appalling business man who has left ruined participants to his crazy schemes in his wake.

He doesn't work hard, or even seemingly smart. He is petulant and more concerned about his image than anything else going on around him - and lacks any self awareness about his own limitations. He has no regard for loyalty either to his wife or his friends while demanding absolute loyalty from those around him. He doesnt have the capacity to accept that anybody else has more expertise than he does on anything.

He manifestly has no concept of how ordinary people live - and even less sympathy for them, yet has somehow been accepted as a man of the people.

Most politicians have at least a streak of narcissism, and some much more than a streak - this man takes it to an astonishing level.

People like that he says what he wants or what he means - except he rolls back on it in a heartbeat and tries to gaslight the nation into thinking he never said it - because he clearly possesses not a single actual conviction beyond self admiration

It sounds like this wouldn't have been discussed, but do you think your father will vote for a Trump re-election or will he stay home because he secretly knows Trump is horrible?

My SOB is better than the other team's SOB, so I'll vote for my SOB.

I don't think anything could cause him to vote for a Dem; like you said, it's vote for the Republican or don't show up. But if by some asinine stupidity Biden made Hilary his VP, he'd definitely show up to vote against that.

This. Right here.

What's cool is, now I feel the same way about them.

Yeah, not a great dynamic.

It is what it is.

When I say "them", of course, I am referring to the subset you were referring to.

There are lots of conservatives I don't wish ill upon. But the ones you describe, well...

how beautiful that your father has decided to abstain from something he was enthusiastic about, in order to have a better relationship with his daughter

So he was suggesting that medical researchers consider the idea of putting something inside the body to treat disease?

If you ignore enough words, then he was suggesting that researches should consider the concept of medication. That might be adorable from a toddler, but chronologically he isn't one.

As you ignore fewer of the words he said, it gets stupider and more dangerous from there.

If you ignore enough of my words, then you are suggesting an altered meaning to what I said.

Altered how? You said that the idea of internal medical treatment was valid, but the specific things to inject, mechanisms of injection, things that can be treated that way, and location of application were wrong.

To get to the point where what he said wasn't dangerous, you have to ignore enough to make what he said meaninglessly trivial.

All I know is that one dumbass was removed from his local decision loop by the chloroquinine thing.

Anyone still stupid enough to take Trump seriously won't be a big loss when they inject Lysol or Draino or whatnot.

Ha! More like "in order to not lose a debate to his daughter, who has gotten much better at arguing than when she was a child."

I addressed what I quoted, the question of whether or not Trump was being sarcastic at the time of his statement. I pointed out that the concept of something being used for external (topical) treatment also being used for internal treatment has precedence and that Trump seemed to have been serious about that much. I never said Trump's public speculation about it in regard to coronavirus wasn't inappropriate; or, even dangerous. That's something you read into it, perhaps after Dani's subsequent post introduced that matter. I haven't replied to it.

Some people are just too stupid to live, regardless.

were there no times that he won, after you improved in skill?

Silly bunny, one does not win against clodfobble. The best you can hope for is she's called away by something more pressing. ;)

Every now and again, as heated as they sometimes got, I miss political arguments/discussions with my dad.

I do wonder what he would have made of all this. And then I think, with his COPD the current situation would have been terrifying. And trying to self isolate in a hoarders house - unable to spend most of his day out and about as he preferred to do. Maybe its a boon he didn't have to see what is happening right now.

I can't image what he would have thought of Trump - I think he'd have found him too boorish and dishonest.

I suspect he'd have liked Boris though.

Fair enough; if all you were doing was saying that he wasn't being sarcastic, then we're in agreement. Please treat the 'you' in my initial response as a generic 'you'.

Maybe that's what these toy soldiers were trying to say?

Realistically he "wins" by dragging me into a political argument in the first place. My real improved skill is just politely nodding and ignoring absurdities.

Ouch.

From that NY Post article: Prayers to god also are a possible treatment. Trump did not recommend that. So he must be Satan. To deny us a cure.

There was a lot of fuss in the media about Boris Johnson being Britain's Trump... Aside from the hair and some occasional gormlessness, I struggle to see the similarity.

Apparently you educate the rich over there?

Do he intentionally ignore facts and science to make contrary decisions? Then he is simply another Trump. But then he so ignored reality as to even get Covid-19 sick. And then finally admitted a problem exists.

Of course he does not show as much contempt and hate for his fellow countrymen. Not like Trump does.

As much as it pains me to defend Boris on any score: yes, he was slow to take the country into lockdown and the level of testing was insufficient; but he was absolutely already taking this seriously prior to getting Covid-19.

There was not the same level of denial as there was with Trump, and the science at the time was conflicted on the pros and cons of full lockdown versus advice for certain parts of the population, or anybody with symptons to self-isolate.

They were slow off the mark, and there have been some almighty fuck ups around sourcing adequate PPE - but the degree of action the govenment has undertaken is pretty staggering, and the level of support being offered to businesses and individuals affected by the lockdown to try to make sure the economy stands a chance of recovery and people aren't forced out of lockdown by economic need is beyond anything I would ever have imagined possible - it's still not enough, and there are gaps in that support, but it's a hell of a start.

I know at least 6 people who live near me who are on the furlough scheme, with the government covering the cost of 80% of their wages so the companies they work for don't have to let them go.

There are things they have done, or not done, that I think have cost us, but I think things could have been much, much worse - and for the most part they have done enough to retain the good will of much of the country - even from people like me who are their natural opposition.

The worst of their offences really predate this crisis - they were slow to recognise the danger before it started to build in the UK - but once they did they really went for it. Unfortunately, the biggest fuck up was in not sorting out the testing and the PPE before the pandemic actually struck us, by which tine sourcing such things became a serious problem. They also systematically defunded the health service in real terms and further fragmented it with public-private partnerships for a decade - so it was not in its most robust state when this thing kicked off.

i only hope that in the years following this crisis, when the question of austerity to lower the debt levels raises its head people remember the front line public workers whose wages they are electing to freeze, and the 'minimum wage heroes' keeping the supermarket shelves stocked who still need to claim some benefits because their wage isnt enough to live on.

For now - as frustrating as the PPE and testing fuckups are - I am broadly on board with how the government is handling this.

Threat was well understood in January. But at highest levels of government - Johnson - the denial was rabid. He ignored five Cobra meetings - five weeks of preparation in January and February. He even kept shaking hands. Insisting this was only another flu.

Unknown is if he even used the word hoax like Trump did.

British passengers on the Diamond Princess, by this time, made it obvious how serious this threat. And still he did nothing until mid March. And only paid any serious attention about the time he got sick.

He also denies science on global warming. And even lied about Brexit. The only reason he is PM, Corbyn is like Bernie Sanders - just as bad - is not talented at the art of lying.

When you say they were slow off the mark, it was not science and adults. They were accurately throwing out warnings with numbers in January. But like Trump, his emotions (not logical thought) resulted in obstructions.

Once he was sick and was no longer in the decision seat, then things were fully permitted to solve this pandemic problem.

Meanwhile in nations run by leaders who make decisions from facts (ie Germany), preparations were in place in time. Merkel listened to facts - and not to emotions and political rhetoric.

Notice when the threat was understood - January. Notice when I bought my face masks. January. Problem was so many people before me already saw it coming. Masks were hard to find in the beginning of January. Due to so many who accurately saw the threat.

Johnson's response was "let it go through the population."

We now know another example of what a lying president will do to enrich himself at the expense of all Americans. And why anti-American extremists love him because he will 'wreck shit'.

What culpability? No facts justify those Trump lies. Even the Defense Department cannot find this evidence that Trump says he has. Sound like Saddam's WMDs?

This is how wars get invented. Then the extremists will gleefully murder another 5000 American servicemen on a lie?

Wars do not happen when nations work together with massive economic and financial ties. TPP was a spectacular plan to pull China into free markets by forcing them to address problems such as ownership requirements and technology sharing. And to form a powerful economic (and later military) alliance in that region that could even address the South China Sea problem (ie Sprately and Parcel Islands that UT, last I read, still denies.) All that is too complicate for a "30 second attention span". He wants to harm any potential friend or trading partner and even America's closest military allies to advance himself. Since, as he has done his entire life, he wants to stiff anyone only to enrich himself.

He even has a long history of not paying contractors. And would not feel guilty about murdering someone on Fifth Ave.

Wag the dog. It worked for Hitler. It works for Trump.

Only the least educated actually think he addressed a Covid-19 problem. When he even called his own science advisors as wrong. Because what they say does not promote Trump. As a result, American has some of the highest Covid-19 death rates (UK's are higher). They believe him only because he said he did something. Anti-Americans do not even demand reasons why with numbers; automatically believe Trump lies.

Meanwhile, people who work for America - Inspector Generals - are under attack by a leader who makes Nixon look honest. Because Inspector Generals identify government corruption, waste, fraud, and liars. Trump believes all that is good. He used such techniques his entire life. He even lies daily. He cannot have any Inspector General say he lied. Since they work for America - and not Trump.

Did the Economist really print that quoted bit there? It's got more typos and mistakes than I would expect from the Economist.

"calling then "fake news""

"Markets signed in relief."

An extra space followed by a comma instead of a semicolon?

Does "all alleged" mean that everyone alleged it; or, that it's completely an allegation rather than partially an allegation?

It's looking like the Economist is a whacko extremist organization out to subvert the American English language.

Twump.

Only English Nazis care about the irrelevant. And only extremist would worry about typs ,;- then about what is relevant.

Patriotic Americans are angry about so many Inspector Generals being fired. The emotional (who therefore voted for Trump because they also believe in what Timothy McVeight believed) want to waste the world by even worrying about spelling.

Twump lies.

And cheats. And steals. And stiffs contractors. And praises despots. And successfully let Kim build nuclear weapons and missiles. And attacks all other Presidents (which has never happened before). And spends money like a drunken sailor. And destroyed relations with all other and closest American allies. And hates immigrants - a most productive part of the American economy. And has never once run a successful company. And routinely cheats on his taxes. And praises Putin. And ethnically cleansed the Kurds. And is so blacklisted that only one bank in the world will take his business - Deutsche Bank. And created a recession even before Covid-19. And can only go on Fake Fox News because he lies are so flagrant. And praises Nazi, KKK, White Supremacist, and other hate groups. And has a 30 second attention span. And will not expedite virus testing that is do desperately needed and remains in shortage. And fires Inspector Generals because they investigate fraud, corruption, waste, and criminal activities. And has many if not most topic government positions vacant - occupied by interim people - so to avoid Congressional approval. And told American highest top secrets to the Russian ambassador and foreign minister only to impress them - in the Oval Office no less (putting at risk what may have been British spies). And destroys jobs. And was fully involved with Ukrainian corruption. And had children of immigrants separated from their parents even without any means of reuniting them. And refused to assign ambassadors to Mexico, Turkey, Columbia, Ireland, Egypt, Sweden, Ivory Coast, Thailand, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Germany, Chad, Australia, Pakistan, Tanzania, Jordan, and other nations (it requires him to work). And was only ten minutes for doing something that has never happened before - a surprise attack on another democracy - in the tradition of Pearl Harbor. And for no purpose other than his ego. And would have committed impeachable crimes had any subordinate done what he ordered them to do (repeatedly demonstrated in the Mueller report). And has used his position to enrich his family - did not even divest himself of properties or their management. And has a history of taking sex from non-compliant women. And who spends one out of every three days at his resorts. And cannot read beyond a few paragraphs. And tried to impose jingoistic hate of China to destroy world trade. And makes Nixon look like an honest man. And is well known for cheating on all his wives - who he trades in like a used car every ten years. And can kill someone on Fifth Ave and still be elected - in the tradition of Al Capone.

Just a few of his daily corrupt activities that come to mind.

Oh. And he also lies daily.

No wonder some people, with a Timothy McVeigh attitude, so love him. And voted for him.

Twump smoke and mirrors.

We Need to Talk About Donald
 

Seriously, like what the almighty fuck?

How is it that the people who shout loudest about Freedom have elected, protected and legitimised a dictator in the making? And I don't use that word lightly - this is not me yelling 'fascist' at a police officer or government official.


I am genuinely worried about America right now.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think he will be allowed to cement his position enough to actually achieve a real dictatorship: I don't think Americans will let that happen. But I worry for the damage he may have done by the time he's through.