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-   -   VOTE! (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=18623)

xoxoxoBruce 08-06-2018 11:17 PM

Sorry, Washington won't allow me to vote. ;)

Griff 08-07-2018 06:25 AM

Trump signs are still up. Zero class by the glatt perspective.

Undertoad 08-07-2018 06:50 AM

I don't vote

fargon 08-07-2018 10:35 AM

If you don't vote, you can't complain.

Undertoad 08-07-2018 10:46 AM

LOL. Sure I can.

fargon 08-07-2018 10:49 AM

We tried but failed miserably. Waaa!!!

Undertoad 08-07-2018 11:16 AM

LOL. If that's the level of your complaint voting won't help.

xoxoxoBruce 08-07-2018 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1012919)
I don't vote

Maybe it's time to reevaluate why. :cool:

Glinda 08-07-2018 11:27 AM

Just took my ballot out to the mailbox. Gotta love vote-by-mail!

Undertoad 08-08-2018 10:59 AM

Quote:

Maybe it's time to reevaluate why.
k

I don't vote because I believe that tribalism is by far our biggest current problem, and fighting it is more important than voting. Declaring myself outside of it by declaring myself a non-voter is a principled stand. Being on no side allows me to more fairly judge and criticize the excesses of all sides.

I don't vote because I am not 100% certain of the best policies to govern us.

I don't vote because I am not a great judge of character.

I don't vote because I am an anti-authoritarian moderate and never find anyone that represents me.

I don't vote because people generally vote by their personality type and I don't think we should be governed by anyone with my ridiculous personality type.

I don't vote because I don't care to stay fully informed about politics in a world where our sense-making establishments are broken and desperate to reach audiences that demand only the affirmation of their own point of view.

then, why should I vote?

It's a civic responsibility.

Some people want me to.

Re-evaluation complete

Clodfobble 08-08-2018 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad
I am an anti-authoritarian moderate

What level of fight would you be willing to put up during an oppressive authoritarian regime? I'm not being glib; I'm truly curious. I feel like digital sabotage would definitely be in your wheelhouse, but would you ever escalate to physical fighting? Would defensive violence be limited to your own home, or on behalf of others as well?

xoxoxoBruce 08-08-2018 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1013011)

I don't vote because I believe that tribalism is by far our biggest current problem, and fighting it is more important than voting. Declaring myself outside of it by declaring myself a non-voter is a principled stand.

No saying you don't vote will make people peg you as a slacker and dismiss your arguments.
Quote:

Being on no side allows me to more fairly judge and criticize the excesses of all sides.
No, you can still vote for the lesser of two evils and be free to criticize all of them.

I think you left out the unwillingness to interact with people in person if avoidable, so not voting accomplishes one instance of that. :eyebrow:

Undertoad 08-08-2018 04:42 PM

No fighting, I am a certified wimp with bad shoulder and hip joints, raised by a pacifist hippie artist.

If 51% want to consolidate government power to enforce their tyranny against the majority - that's one thing. That can be fought. I find it more likely that we all suddenly find ourselves in agreement, and have a government that has very high approval ratings, under a scenario where a minority find themselves unwilling to object and the government becomes authoritarian because it can. That's more likely, and would be nearly impossible for an individual to fight at all.

The only defense is regular, truthful speech and that is why freedom of speech and tolerance of all points of view are essential IMO

xoxoxoBruce 08-08-2018 08:05 PM

Right, the preppers in Idaho are no more an influence than the anti-zombie warriors.
More likely the large majority will get sick of the rancor and agree to anything to stop it... without reading the fine print.

sexobon 08-08-2018 08:07 PM

Not voting - no problem. More power to the more capable. You're in good hands … leave the driving to us.

Undertoad 08-08-2018 08:16 PM

I do, you get to divide up my vote with everyone who votes, for the amount of power in a single vote.

So you get 1/130000000th of a vote more power. That's 0.0000000077 votes more power you get.

Use it wisely, or don't use it at all. Nobody will notice either way.

It's all rich irony as for years and years and years, people told me I was "throwing my vote away" by voting the way I did. So yeah, you throw it away for me. Do me a service.

sexobon 08-08-2018 08:32 PM

You underestimate the propaganda value.

Fact: If you had voted in the last Presidential election, you would have voted for Trump.

There's nothing you can say or do to disprove that statement; because, you didn't vote. Let's give it some oomph;

Fact: Undertoad, who is seeking the truth, would have voted for Trump in the last election had he voted since Trump was truly the best choice.

Leave the driving to us.

Undertoad 08-08-2018 08:40 PM

Yes and if you were looking to rape a young child, you would have chosen a male.

There's nothing you can say or do to disprove that statement; because, you didn't rape a child.

yr mv

sexobon 08-08-2018 09:01 PM

You equate voting for Trump to raping a child? Is that how you feel, like those who voted for Trump raped you.

If you vote in the next Presidential election, you will vote for Trump.

(Stockholm syndrome)

All like you are just waiting to come out of the woodwork to get true blue Trump reelected.

Undertoad 08-09-2018 06:56 AM

Yes and if you rape a young child next year, you will rape a boy.

dude don't just reframe the analogy again once it is shown to be broken

sexobon 08-09-2018 04:37 PM

Why not

If Trump runs for reelection, you wouldn't vote for anyone else. That means something to people. OTOH, your retort is meaningless as it's not reality based.

You're an enabler; but, more importantly, you provide a rationale for others to become abstaining enablers so that power shifts by changing the level of entitlement by numbers.

Thank you for your un-contribution. Good day.

Undertoad 08-09-2018 04:55 PM

Quote:

you provide a rationale for others to become abstaining enablers so that power shifts by changing the level of entitlement by numbers
So, the real danger is other people start to not vote because I have convinced them?

Jesus, I didn't know I had such power! Can I convince them to suck my dick instead? It takes less time and at least then I would get something for my amaaaaazing influence, which I was previously unaware of!

I would even put up a booth and a curtain if people want to suck me off. Can we make it happen the first Tuesday of November?

sexobon 08-09-2018 05:01 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Attachment 64535

xoxoxoBruce 08-09-2018 05:15 PM

Our government officials are elected by the average American.
You know, someone who has a high-school education and $30,000 in earnings, of which 30% goes to taxes and 30% to housing and health-care costs, and are told repeatedly that people like them, the majority of the population, have no future in a knowledge economy.

henry quirk 08-09-2018 06:38 PM

Toad, I love ya, really, I do, BUT...
 
...you gotta lotta nerve, man.

You give me grief about my anarchic ways, but you can't even be bothered to participate in the operation of the 'representative government' you put so much stock in.

Understand: I don't care if you vote or not (voting is mostly Hobson's Choice). By my standards: you're fine.

By your own... :neutral:

Undertoad 08-09-2018 09:14 PM

Lots of ways to participate man. This is one of them!

Leave the vote to others who are more informed. That's a sensible civic approach, really --

I tellya what, I would vote on local. School board and township, that I'd vote on. Because you could probably even meet the people running, and the issues would be things you were aware of, and that actually mattered. And the vote would be meaningful, it would be less than a 0.000000077th impact.

But I'm not informed about any of that, and I'm a renter. Shrug

Clodfobble 08-09-2018 09:53 PM

Okay, but in the same way that we have a representative democracy because we can't all be informed on all the issues all the time, couldn't you theoretically have a representative voting advisor? Like one person or organization or whatever that you decide you trust, and just do whatever that person/organization tells you to do? Or would you say you inherently can't trust anyone who would pick from either of the two major parties?

Undertoad 08-09-2018 10:51 PM

I did give a vote as a christmas present once.

It's easy to get proxy votes. Simply by standing outside the polling place, and politely asking everyone who enters to vote for your candidate, you can get a ton of votes. You can sway a precinct.

Just think of all the people who have been told it's their civic duty to vote, and do it, but who have no idea who the candidates are.

Griff 08-10-2018 06:34 AM

So you are participating in representative democracy just not voting.

sexobon 08-10-2018 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1013139)
… But I'm not informed about any of that, and I'm a renter. Shrug

You're just a renter of life. Perhaps you don't have much to say that's worth listening to about anything.

Undertoad 08-10-2018 06:47 AM

It's down to the tribalism, people. It's killing us.

A third us believe there will be civil war.

I simply refuse to be a part of that.

Undertoad 08-10-2018 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 1013146)
You're just a renter of life. Perhaps you don't have much to say that's worth listening to about anything.

A) We're all renters of life! That's the gig.

B) Saying this to me in the thread 12 hours after having told me to STFU tells us you are listening hard!

Clodfobble 08-10-2018 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad
It's down to the tribalism, people. It's killing us.

A third us believe there will be civil war.

I simply refuse to be a part of that.

Are we more tribal than we used to be, though? Or just more aware of the other tribes' doings, thanks to connectivity?

Undertoad 08-10-2018 07:49 AM

My theory is that politics is replacing religion as a source of spiritual guidance and a place people are looking for meaning. My theory is that this is really dangerous.

Because overlaid on that is humanity's tribal nature; which tells us, subconsciously, that there must be an enemy to be fought, and finding and outing/fighting that enemy is part of what we will do to survive in the long run.

We see that, in human behavior, there are always enemies and our instinct is to destroy them. It is our destiny. And this has created all the greatest inhumanities of history.

Now, without an obvious enemy, and without a spiritual calming force to guide the behavior that allows us to find agreement, behave, and get along, we are turning on ourselves.

Today everyone believes that the "other side" is reprehensible. Both sides have different sets of facts. Both sides unfairly malign the other. It has started to come to violence. We are looking to ban speech and silently cheering when people get assaulted.

OMG, HARD LIBERALS are DEMANDING BIG CORPORATIONS ACT AS CENSORS! What the hell is happening??? Where ARE we???

Politics has gotten people angry over NFL football. NFL football!! What the HELL. This is the sport where we create fake tribes and go to fake war. It's supposed to be a relief valve, people! How can NFL fuckin' football be making things worse?

It's a shit time we're in. Well, I'm not taking sides. I believe we're all on the same side. To demonstrate that fully, I must say, in the strongest terms, that I'm not a part of this. I am trying to demonstrate a way to be.

henry quirk 08-10-2018 09:10 AM

"Lots of ways to participate man."

In the representative government you promote, only one really counts and you choose to abstain.

If voting is the process through which a citizen 'chooses' (how tax revenue is spent, who will represent him in-town, in-state, in-nation) then you're fallin' down on the job in a LARGE way, toad.

So: shit or get offa the pot...vote and be entitled to to lecture ill-fitting pieces such as myself, or, be a hypocrite and *ahem* shut the fuck up.

Me: I'd like it if you joined me on the Dark Side...we can always use another twisted soul in the Pit, but, if you're gonna walk with the angels, you gotta play the harp.

Simply: I demand at least a little consistency in the opposition. If you can't give me that, then what the hell are you good for?

#

"civil war."

'bout damn time for one.

tw 08-10-2018 09:15 AM

Travel through the back country. Listen to what is heard on so many radio stations. A diatribe of hate is now routine. Alex Jones screams hate since (just like Sen Joe McCarthy), it makes him rich and powerful.

Hate promoted on radio (emotions that target adults who are children) is rampant in rural communities. As many or more stations play that hate more than others that play rock and roll. Hate (emotion) targets adults who are still children Logical thought (ie honest news hyped to the emotional as fake news) is little heard on those talk radio stations.

Nothing new. Over 60% of Americans also knew smoking cigarettes increased health. Because emotional propaganda proved it to be true. Logic (intelligent thought) becomes irrelevant when sound byte emotions are promoted more often.

Why did Saddam have WMDs? Same emotional diatribes proved it. Because it was promoted emotionally - not justified by facts. The emotion called hate is easily and now widely promoted in rural communities.

tw 08-10-2018 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry quirk (Post 1013152)
... if you're gonna walk with the angels, you gotta play the harp.

It explains why John Lennon screamed, "I got callouses on my fingers" when still alive.

henry quirk 08-10-2018 09:22 AM

"I believe we're all on the same side."

We're not, we never have been.

Roughly, there are two sides...

WE vs I

MANY vs ONE

Not possible to be on both sides of the field.

Abstaining from the conflict doesn't insulate or absolve you.

Clodfobble 08-10-2018 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad
My theory is that politics is replacing religion as a source of spiritual guidance and a place people are looking for meaning. My theory is that this is really dangerous.

I think you would really like a book called Homo Deus by Yuval Noah Harari. (Not because it would change your mind, because it's about all this same stuff you're talking about.)

Undertoad 08-10-2018 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry quirk (Post 1013155)
WE vs I

MANY vs ONE

Not possible to be on both sides of the field.

Why did you write your post in English?

Undertoad 08-10-2018 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 1013157)
Homo Deus by Yuval Noah Harari

The Amazon summary sounds awesome, I will consider it, thanks!

Undertoad 08-10-2018 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 1013154)
It explains why John Lennon screamed, "I got callouses on my fingers" when still alive.

blisters on me fingers

glatt 08-10-2018 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1013161)
blisters on me fingers

Thank you

henry quirk 08-10-2018 12:34 PM

"Why did you write your post in English?"
 
cuz I'm tryin' to convince a hypocrite to not be a hypocrite (coulda been french, spanish, esperanto, or the idiosyncratic marks I use when I write for myself...I used english cuz I'm communicatin' with you, which, I see is a waste of my time).

As you were.

xoxoxoBruce 08-10-2018 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1013161)
blisters on me fingers

Yelled RINGO STARR

Undertoad 08-10-2018 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry quirk (Post 1013164)
I'm communicatin' with you, which, I see is a waste of my time).

The hell? I asked you one question, is that the limit of your tolerance for discussion?

tw 08-10-2018 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 1013166)
Yelled RINGO STARR

He did not play guitar. He had an easy life. He only beat drums. He did not even have to play both a left and right handed guitar. And he had rings that prevented calluses.

But then all those Brits sound alike. Could be.

sexobon 08-10-2018 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 1013148)
… Saying this to me in the thread 12 hours after having told me to STFU tells us you are listening hard!

I said GOOD DAY. That was yesterday. New day, new beginning for me. Now towards the end of the day I see it's still the same old, same old from you. The truths you recognize are the ones that get you out of responsibility. That's why you've gone as far as you can go, both personally and professionally. No soup for you. Come back one year. We'll see if my hypothesis is correct.

Meanwhile, do continue to try to impress yourself.

Undertoad 08-10-2018 04:52 PM

Oh my goodness with the personal! Well, I've taken you officially OFF the guest list for my dick-sucking booth then. I hope you can live with that.

sexobon 08-10-2018 04:58 PM

The Cellar: And the bleat goes on...and the bleat goes on...

henry quirk 08-10-2018 07:07 PM

"He did not play guitar. He had an easy life. He only beat drums. He did not even have to play both a left and right handed guitar. And he had rings that prevented calluses."

Now look at them yo-yo's that's the way you do it
You play the guitar on the MTV
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and chicks for free

Now that ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Lemme tell ya them guys ain't dumb
Maybe get a blister on your little finger
Maybe get a blister on your thumb

We got to install microwave ovens custom kitchen deliveries
We got to move these refrigerators we gotta move these color TV's

See the little faggot with the earring and the make up
Yeah buddy that's his own hair
That little faggot got his own jet airplane
That little faggot he's a millionaire

We got to install microwave ovens custom kitchen deliveries
We got to move these refrigerators we gotta move these color TV's

I shoulda learned to play the guitar
I shoulda learned to play them drums
Look at that mama she got it stickin' in the camera man
We could have some fun
And he's up there, what's that?
Hawaiian noises?
Bangin' on the bongos like a chimpanzee
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Get your money for nothin' get your chicks for free

We got to install microwave ovens custom kitchen deliveries
We got to move these refrigerators we gotta move these color TV's

Listen here
Now that ain't workin' that's the way to do it
Play the guitar on the MTV
That ain't workin' that's the way you do it
Money for nothin' and chicks for free

Money for nothin' chicks for free
Money for nothin' chicks for free
Money for nothin' chicks for free
Money for nothin' chicks for free
Money for nothin' chicks for free
Money for nothin' chicks for free

Easy, easy money for nothin' chicks for free) (I want my, I want my MTV)
(Money for nothin' chicks for free)

henry quirk 08-10-2018 07:45 PM

"is that the limit of your tolerance for discussion?"
 
Do I strike you as particularly tolerant, of anyone, or anything, at any time?

Here's the thing, toad: all this...

I don't vote because I believe that tribalism is by far our biggest current problem, and fighting it is more important than voting. Declaring myself outside of it by declaring myself a non-voter is a principled stand. Being on no side allows me to more fairly judge and criticize the excesses of all sides.

I don't vote because I am not 100% certain of the best policies to govern us.

I don't vote because I am not a great judge of character.

I don't vote because I am an anti-authoritarian moderate and never find anyone that represents me.

I don't vote because people generally vote by their personality type and I don't think we should be governed by anyone with my ridiculous personality type.

I don't vote because I don't care to stay fully informed about politics in a world where our sense-making establishments are broken and desperate to reach audiences that demand only the affirmation of their own point of view.


...is poop.

Again: you can't make a show of the glories of democracy and respresentative government and then opt out.

Well, yeah, you can but that just makes you a hypocrite (not principled or thoughtful or insightful or an example to be followed).

As you like.

Undertoad 08-10-2018 08:57 PM

Both you two are alternating between unable to speak to me at all, and screaming at me full volume. Let's have you two battle over the question of how shitty I am and why. I think that will be entertaining. I'll just sit and watch, now.

henry quirk 08-10-2018 09:06 PM

Sexobon, I think toad is shitty to the nth degree...
 
...you agree?

sexobon 08-10-2018 09:32 PM

He suffers from hypengyophobia and one of the symptoms is diarrhea of the mouth (he's got more excuses than Carter has liver pills). It's usually just monotonous; unless, he gets talkative while stoned. Then it can be entertaining.

xoxoxoBruce 08-10-2018 09:41 PM

And his mama wears combat boots. :lol2:

henry quirk 08-11-2018 11:58 AM

"hypengyophobia"
 
No.

He's just a *chickenshit, and that's a matter of character, not a disorder.










*an assessment issued without **rancor

**cuz I can be pretty friggin' ***rancorous without even thinkin' about it

***which is a matter of 'my' character

sexobon 08-11-2018 12:42 PM

I recognize that he has had some chickenshit ideas. I also recognize that good people can have bad ideas. I tend to separate the person from the idea and look at their ideas across a wide range of subjects. I don't paint them with a broad brush until they're consistently bad across the board.

In the political arena, I don't dispute your characterization and I'll consider all proposed etiologies.

We should be charging UT for this; but, he's providing the venue so I figure it's a wash.

xoxoxoBruce 08-11-2018 02:26 PM

The best thing about the secret ballot is if you fuck up and vote for the wrong guy nobody knows.

sexobon 08-11-2018 02:58 PM

Still, this is a very serious matter and should be considered with great … Oh look! :eyeball::eyeball: BEAR CAM!


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