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-   -   Justifiable Conquest? (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=12621)

9th Engineer 12-02-2006 07:52 PM

Justifiable Conquest?
 
I've been thinking about this for a while, is it acceptable for a country to offer a failing country aid under the condition that they officially join the stronger country? Remember the girl with the massive tumor? How many other people have no access to health care, and no opportunity for their kids to be educated? Is there some way for countries to help besides pouring money into the pockets of the corrupt governments that don't care one way or another about advancing their country? Perhaps amalgamation with a more powerful country is sometimes the answer. What do you guys think is the best way to bring third world countries into the 20th century?

Aliantha 12-02-2006 08:13 PM

9th, what you've posed in the first part of your post is basically the begining of colonialism which leads to imperialism. Good or bad? The countries that were 'absorbed' by the more advanced country generally tend to say bad. I don't think this is the answer.

I think more people need to be socially conscious of the world happening outside their window.

I don't think there's a way to 'solve' the problems of third world countries, but I do think wealthier nations have a moral obligation to care and in that, to attempt to alleviate the suffering.

Clodfobble 12-02-2006 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer
...is it acceptable for a country to offer a failing country aid under the condition that they officially join the stronger country?.... Is there some way for countries to help besides pouring money into the pockets of the corrupt governments that don't care one way or another about advancing their country?

If the existing government is corrupt, who is going to officially "agree" to join the stronger country? Unless you're talking about staging a coup on the current government in the impoverished nation, which is a different move entirely.

xoxoxoBruce 12-02-2006 09:47 PM

Doctors without borders. :D

DanaC 12-03-2006 03:56 AM

Maybe those developing countries wouldn't be so poor if we wealthy western nations didn't operate such protective policies on trading goods, thereby excluding them from many markets, except those that we choose to let them participate in....by participate I mean work for a dollar a day in one of the west funded sweat shops.

Undertoad 12-03-2006 07:10 AM

Not at all. You can check that by looking at the countries that the west does trade with, and those that it doesn't. We started with Japan 55 years ago... then South Korea... Hong Kong... Taiwan. These countries were the sweat shops of the west 30 years ago; now they are incredible economic marvels that will even outgrow the west. You can't get computer components from anywhere else.

tw 12-03-2006 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad
Not at all. You can check that by looking at the countries that the west does trade with, and those that it doesn't. We started with Japan 55 years ago...

At the same time, Philippines was also a major American trading partner. What happened? It is called selective sampling. We remember success stories and ignore the failures.

9th Engineer 12-03-2006 12:27 PM

There will always be successes and failures, just because not every country we export labor jobs to doesn't turn into an economic powerhouse doesn't mean we're responsible for keeping them down. Quite the opposite perhaps, we gave each of those countries an opportunity for advancement, some took it and others didn't. I think that a population should be forced to take a close look at itself and its future, along with what it is willing to tolerate amongst itself. If it doesn't have a problem with nonexistent medical training programs and industry then it can just continue to wallow in their primative pride. If they decide it's about time for a change, well then I think they should be given the opportunity to educate themselves.

Urbane Guerrilla 12-12-2006 08:47 PM

Every impoverished country out there likely has its politics to blame -- blunders by their executive and legislative branches of government may have the severest of effects on a small, less-than-developed economy, as the public sector is often proportionately very large compared to the private in such a place. Not always the case, but when it is there's trouble waiting to happen.

The real, proven way out is to do the Milton Friedman: political liberty hand in hand with economic liberty.

Spexxvet 12-12-2006 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer
... Is there some way for countries to help besides pouring money into the pockets of the corrupt governments that don't care one way or another about advancing their country? ....

Yes. It's called the United Nations. You may have heard of it.;)

Spexxvet 12-12-2006 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer
.... I think that a population should be forced to take a close look at itself and its future, along with what it is willing to tolerate amongst itself. ...

For most of these people, "the future" is their next meal. They really don't give a big rat's ass about their government, until their government kills them or throws them in jail. When you're focused on the bottom levels of Maslow's heirarchy of needs, you can't worry about "government", and you certainly don't have "primative pride". These aren't rich suburban European-Americans deciding which orthodontist they should use.

rkzenrage 12-14-2006 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer
I've been thinking about this for a while, is it acceptable for a country to offer a failing country aid under the condition that they officially join the stronger country? Remember the girl with the massive tumor? How many other people have no access to health care, and no opportunity for their kids to be educated? Is there some way for countries to help besides pouring money into the pockets of the corrupt governments that don't care one way or another about advancing their country? Perhaps amalgamation with a more powerful country is sometimes the answer. What do you guys think is the best way to bring third world countries into the 20th century?

Sure, offer it, but not by force.
There is not a nation out there where the people of that nation could not remove the current government if they CHOSE to.

Ibby 12-14-2006 04:09 AM

no, its removing the MILITARY that's the problem, or removing the other people that took over from the first people when they turn out to be an even bigger problem...

rkzenrage 12-14-2006 08:31 AM

It is never easy... again; I believe that there is no nation where, if the people want they can remove a government. A populist movement will include enough of the military to remove its power structure as well.
Something that has always bugged me about Mexico, with their infrastructure, their amazing natural resources… it just seems like they (as a nation) don’t want it badly enough.
What is the trend? Go to another nation to make it and send the scraps back instead of building yours up from within, where is the pride, the honor, the taking responsibility for your Nation in that?... no thanks.

9th Engineer 12-14-2006 05:06 PM

The biggest catch point is the possibility that the residents will effectively leach off the more productive nation while not taking the opportunity to advance themselves. This would cause a huge stigma with the original citizens who would rightly feel cheated, and then we'd get into race riots and stuff. The citizens have to want to earn a better life and be part of a higher level of society, not just be given aid.


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