1/30/2006: Caning
 

http://cellar.org/2006/caning.jpg

Another day, another image of a man getting off on being inhumane and mean to a woman. In this case it's official policy though. It's Indonesia, where they have Islamic Sharia law, which takes its rules from the Quran. This woman is charged with the offense of staying in the same house as her boyfriend. She's taken in front of the Mosque and beaten for all to watch.

...and then.....the bukake

um...why is the "cane-er" wearing a mask?

And, what punishment does the boyfriend get? Oh, yeah, right. Nothing.

It looks as if a woman, on the right, is speaking into a microphone. One can only imagine what she is saying to the crowd.

i wonder if she's expected to kill herself now? Or, do they gang rape her first?

Canadas gonna love this.

So is this disturbing because it is punishment for something we don't consider a crime?
...because only the woman is punished?
...or because it is a public punishment?

Yes...

In Christian history, women have had their heads chopped off for far less crimes than being in a house with another man.

I'm thinking Henry VIII type people who eventually - as we all know - start their own religions etc to get around rules which they find unfavourable.

I have a pet theory that Abrahamaic religions have a life cycle, based on centuries since founding...

I'm not sure what we will do when Mormonism gets to that point. Isn't that the most recent offshoot to a) claim a new prophet and b) survive?

Everything goes in cycles HM. It's called 'The Circle of Life'. Haven't you watched 'The Lion King'? ;)

At first I thought that this post was about corporal punishment and then I tought: "You are too fucked up, what is your problem? It MUST be about decorative chair seat patterns, etc. and I thought I'd share a snapshot of an antique rush pattern that I have." So I clicked the link.

Her boyfriend is a complete balless ahole. I wonder what he was thinking about knowing what the punishment would be?

Dogma.

Probably, "Ah, we'll never get caught," just like she was. I mean, what sort of ball-less ahole risks unprotected sex, knowing what the punishment could be? Tons of 'em! And I even bet she'd rather be caned than be an unwed mother in her country.

maybe she was thinking, "I'm going to be in big trouble if someone finds out about this, but if I don't submit I will be hit/raped so I'll take my chances"

maybe he was thinking, "This woman has been tempting me for a long time now. She must want me even though it's against the rules, and after all, she did say no one would find out"

maybe neither of them were thinking? Maybe they're in love and he's already been punished? Maybe he's yet to be punished? Maybe she was trying to avoid an even worse situation elsewhere?

I don't think there are any black and whites in these sorts of cases. It's almost impossible for those of us from western societies to understand how some of these ancient societies really work or why the citizens of these countries allow these things to happen.

BTW, the emancipation of women in western societies is still a very new concept in the grand scheme of things.

This is the sort of bullshit that Makes President Bush a hero of mine. All theocrats should be whacked.

Yep I'm definintely advocating a purge of Muslim leaders worldwide. :rar: :rar:

Two generations ago it was a common cry by conservative and liberal parents alike that if you, 'spare the rod you'll spoil the child'.

If this was a quote from the bible (may not be but I think it is), then what makes one religious book more right when both are advocating corporal punishment? The only difference is that in this case, it's a grown woman who surely would have been consious of the consequences where-as with children, sometimes their understanding of consequence is questionable.

Please explain to me why Muslim leaders should be purged world wide? Surely you meant fundamentalists or extremists right?

Of course I don't condone a public beating. The point I'm actually trying to make is that from our perspective, what's right and wrong is different. Just as from a Muslim perspective, a lot of what many Christians do or believe is wrong.

What gives us the right to judge?

And nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. All part of the same joke.

It looks staged to me. I lived and worked in Sumatra back in 76. Also married a lady there. Never saw a caning, but heard tales about, No one lives after 100 licks because they split the cane and it takes a bite out each lick. Also don't get sent to jail if you have no friends, kin because food is not included. My wife had a white get-up like the one above, only worn for special prayer things. So maybe the lady is praying he dosen't beat the crap out of her? Whatda I know?

No one said it was 100 strokes, and it is over clothing.

But people in fact do survive 100 strokes. They better have friends to bandage them up though.

Human rights trumps tradition.

And every western or Christian society is totally free of sin as far as human rights are concerned?

You'll have to line up behind the theocrats in his fan club.

I wondered about that pure-white outfit, too. I'll bet each girl gets one on her tenth birthday from mom, "Honey, this is your very special white outfit. You'll wear it for your wedding, special prayers, and if you are ever caned in public."

I'm thinkin' it must be an old habit. I have vague recollections of admonitions against it in the old testament. Maybe it was the new testament. Who can say?

Judging makes us feel good and right about ourselves. It helps us to bond as a group by uniting against "them".

The alternative, seeing something form someone else's point of view, is sometimes harrowing for people.

But, yeah, who does give us the right to judge? Depending on who you ask, it is usually their "god". :(

It's a paradox. You can't have good without bad. If there's no bad, then what is good? nothing! The only difference is perspective.

At least the Puritans would strip them to the waist first. ;)

I think that might be the 7th Day Adventists.

**********

Thanks to religioustolerance.org, I now know the following:

Mormon Church Founded: 1830. Joseph Smith had his first vision at age 13, in 1820.

7th Day Adventist Church Founded: 1863

Jehovah Witness Founded (Zion Watch Tower Tract Society): 1884

Unitarian Universalist Church Founded: 1961 (Unitarians and Universalists merged. Unitarian church was formed in 1638 in Transylvania. The first Universalist Church in the U.S. was formed in 1785, however there had been Universalist Churches in England as early as the 17th Century).

Looks like the UUs win on a technicality for youngest, but the JWs are really the winners. Of course I left out/ignored a lot of sects.

Great. I go back and check the site and of course NOW I find this lovely completed table of all this information.

What about the Moonies, Wolf? Sun Yoon Moon or whatever the fat little crook is named.


Never mind, in opening your chart I see they have him listed as the most recent cult leader. Rather strange to see the Moonies listed as Christians, though :neutral:

the lady in the back with the mic is freestyling.....i heard she's about to get a big record deal she's got the streets goin crazy

Why don't she just refuse the beating? She is not bound in shackles. What would they do... lock her up? I would choose that before I'd let some masked asshole flog me in public. IMO this is just more evidence that these people are a bunch of brainwashed idiots. Thank God for the USA.

i glad i live in the good ol' USA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My head nearly exploded on reading this.

Public punishment.
Corporal punishment.
Laws based on religious texts.

We're so fortunate to have a president in power who sides with groups willing to fight these awful ideals.

Interesting that she is wearing white, which we in the west associate with purity and virginity like in wedding dresses or little kids doing the first communion thing at church. Perhaps it is just white so that after the beating the crowd can see the blood soak through.

I quit being associated with any religion when I was about 17 or so. I got tired of all the BS rules. I got tired of all the stupid long church services, no meat on Friday, holy days of obligation, the stations of the cross, having to go to church in the morning on December 25th instead of opening my christmas presents instead like most of my friends. I got tired of atonement theology, being told that my sins were to blame for jesus getting killed like he did and all his suffering. I think what did it for me was that I had asthma as a kid and used to get soar throats alot. One Sunday, my parents insisted I go with them to mass because it was the feast of st. Blaise, the patron saint of throats. My mom insisted that if I would just go to church and have the priest splash holy water on my neck I would be cured of asthma and soar throats. And then there was the time that I misplaced my watch and my grandmother insisted that I should sit right down and pray to st. Anthony.

I think it was Karl Marx who said that religion was the opium of the masses.

opium is also the opium of the masses.

Permit me a small soapbox.

It's disheartening to read many of the replies here. The problem isn't with Islam or Judaism or Christianity, the problem is with man. We are naturally inclined toward evil. Isaiah said, 'the heart is desperately wicked, who can understand it?'

Even in our well-meaning attempts to please Allah or Jehovah or God we contaminate religion with our own sinfulness. That is how the Jews put Jesus on the cross. That is how the crusades happened. That is how a group of radical fundamentalists justfied bringing the World Trade Center towers down. That is how Chris is led to pray to a patron saint to help him find his watch. And that is how this woman is publicly beaten.

I object to the idea that moral right or wrong vary from one culture or religion to another. Now what is acceptable behavior varies, but moral law does not. Everyone is pre-programmed to know that Adolf Hitler was not a nice man. There is absolute truth, and it is specified clearly in the Bible.

The answer to our sinfulness is outside ourselves. It doesn't revolve around us being good and following rules, but in throwing ourselves at the feet of someone who has the authority and the gumption to forgive our sins past, present, and future. Jesus, as the holy son of God, has both the authority (he is God's son) and the gumption (he loves us).

God must punish sin to satisfy his holiness. He would not be a good God if he left sin unpunished. Think for a moment about the parents of a child who was raped and murdered. They need God to exact justice. This is an extreme example I know, but what would it say about God if he turned a blind eye to something like that? Well all sin is that offensive to God (who is holy).

The real mystery is that Jesus, in dying on the cross, took the *penalty* for all our sin. God is now free to lavish his love on us and satisfy his holy justice (Jesus after all bore the punishment for all of us) at the same time, to those who will 'repent' (come seeking mercy).

So you see any religion (even what passes for Christianity) that relies upon self effort (trying to live by rules to be better) is pointless. We can never be good enough, and we will eventually have to pay for our sins. The only religion I know of that doesn't rely on self is faith in Christ. That is the difference.

Soapbox speech complete.

As an aside, it is also amusing to observe that religious tolerance extends to all religions, except of course, Christianity. What is it about Jesus that still offends people today?

All the proselytizing?

Jesus does not offend me. (But a lot of certain) Christians offend me. Jesus taught no doctrine yet his cult loves to muck his message up with it.

Philip Yancey's THE JESUS I NEVER KNEW is a good example of one Christian trying to get this across.

Not me, I'm equally intollerant of all religions! :lol:

Actually, I wasn't trying to turn the thread towards a debate of theology but more so to say that I think for the most part all religions are stupid because of images like the one at the start of this thread. From what I get out of the picture of the lady who is about to get her ass whipped is that this particular religion's "holy law" says this lady is in deep shit for something that comes most naturally like being attracted to a person of the opposite sex which, humerously enough can be attributed to what god wants in the first place (don't foget that god also is supposed to hate homos, they tell us that in some other part of the holy books that all these religions claim are the one true word).

And incidentally the holy books and rules are mostly written by a bunch of men with beards a long time ago; ever notice how you never hear about any prophets being women, they are always men and the only women who get righteous get killed, kind of like Joan of Arc did. It doesn't seem to matter that it isn't very fair that the men who defame women mostly get off scott free and that women, who the holy books all claim to hold in such high esteem also get to have a good ass whipping or a good stoning or wear a scarlet A around their neck or have their family kill them to avenge the family honor.

I guess Yoko was right; "women is the nigger of the world." :sniff:

The more I think about this, the more I realize I'm not familiar with any religion that operates this way. Christianity still requires you to "be good" and to follow the rules, just as does Islam as well as the slew of other major religions. Unless you subscribe to the "I'm going to profusely apologize on my death bed" ideal, my understanding is that it isn't as simple as this.

Some branches of Christianity even require you to be active in the word of god, to convert others, to even punish others so that you may be without sin. Many sects of Islam require its followers to not remain idle. These people still consider their answer to sin to be outside themselves, they just happen to see the answer in the "saving" of others. Preaching, beating, genocide. Saving others, acting out god's wishes, religious cleansing. All the same, really, to the people that do it.

"All the proselytizing?"

Proselytizing = making someone conform to the rituals associated with a religion. An earnest Gentile convert to Judaism would proselytize to become accepted into their fold. No such need for proselytizing in Christianity (there is no male or female, Jew or Greek, free or slave).

Evangelizing (from the greek evangelizo) = to spread the good news. Why do Christians evangelize? They are firmly convinced they had found the way to salvation. If you had the cure to cancer but told no one, what kind of person would you be. That plus Christians are commanded to spread the good news by, of all people, Jesus: "Go and make disciples of all nations." (Matt. 28:19f.)

If you thought you could save that woman by beating her, and you didn't, what kind of person would you be.

Yes, but I'm not beating her. ;)

a.) "Christianity still requires you to 'be good' and to follow the rules"

It's not about reliance on self. Christians try to please God by minding their own personal walk. There is no expectation unbelievers act like Christians, however we are called to act as "salt and light" to a lost world. LOOK AT HOW JESUS DID IT: He was truthful and confronted people about their sin, but was compassionate at the same time. This message is lost on all of us in varying degrees. Our hearts are spring-loaded to be self righteous, judgmental, "you're going to hell if you don't ____ (fill in the blank)" hypocrites.

Now 'being good' and 'following the rules' are not requirements to get into the kingdom of heaven (it is only that Christ saves you), but one must wonder if she has made a true profession of faith if there is no changed life. If God intervenes in your life you are going to become more like Christ over time. Read Romans ch. 6-7 to see what I mean.

b.) "Unless you subscribe to the 'I'm going to profusely apologize on my death bed' ideal, my understanding is that it isn't as simple as this."

Is a death bed confession truly a sign of repentance, or a desire instead to avoid the consequences of a life lived selfishly? More often than not I would argue the latter.

When you put your hope in Christ it is a future hope. You are in effect saying, on judgement day I will look to Christ for help. I will be found guilty, but Christ will take the sentencing (try and get your head around this--he already did!) and I will walk out of the court room a free man.

c.) "Some branches of Christianity even require you to..."

A lot of things are done under the name of Christianity that are man's contamination of the original elements of true saving faith. Keep in mind Jesus' first miracle in the book of Mark was casting out a demon-posessed man who was in church (what was a demon possessed man doing in church?)!

Hence the term "sola fide" (only faith), one of the prominent cries of the protestant reformation. There is such a need in our hearts to have rituals and rules. Again, a tendency toward self-governance. It is not about us, it is about what God does to rescue us from ourselves.

Let he, who be without sin, cast the first stone.

maybe that explains the mask?

...oops, wrong religion.

Okay, so it is safe to assume you are talking about people that are spiritual versus religious, correct?

Sorry but that's one idea I don't buy into.

I also have a problem with people telling me to read a certain passage out of the bible or the queran or some ancient holy text. That has about as much impact on me as if they said, "hey read the 3rd chapter of The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Universe and it will all be much clearer!"

As for christian intolerance, don't the jewish and muslim religions accept the fact that jesus was one of the prophets? They just don't think that he was "the one." Anyway, I know that Nemo was the one, I saw the movies! ;)

Seems like christians used to interpret the bible and tell us that all those unbelievers were going to get torn to pieces in the end by devils from the underworld for all their sins and unrepenting, the whole hellfire and brimstone thing. All those unbelievers who perished in disasters like the tsunami? Toast. They had their chance!

Anyway, back to the image of the day... Wouldn't that be cool if someone would just Photoshop in Ken Lay's face on that of the woman? "Mr. Lay, the jury has found you guilty for all you did to wipe out all those Enron employee's life savings and you are going to finally get just what you deserve! Bend over!" :lol:

I officially volunteer to be the one that gets to whack Bush the Theocrat, then. Or am I the only one who's noticed that this is the way our government seems to be heading? Oh, wait...its alright for us to be a Theocracy since we believe in the One True God. Sorry.

Oh, and for the NSA guys who are reading this...I mean "whack" as in "to hit with a cane", as in the picture which leads off this thread. I do not mean "whack" as in to do away with in any way, shape or form.

Moonies are ostensibly Christian, with some added wierd beliefs regarding the divinity of Rev. Moon. It will be interesting to see whether the cult survives him.

In Christianity there is a difference between saying the words ("I accept Jesus as my personal savior," or similar) and saying them with sincerity and absolute truth. The intent behind the words is the key to salvation.

Salvation Army is a religion?

Yep. They do more than just run homeless shelters, thrift stores, and ring bells at Christmastime.

One of my college roommates was S.A.

I never quite figured them out, but they are good, dedicated people.

hmm
 

All sorts of stuff was done by all sorts of religions, a long long time ago. TODAY, most seem to be enlightened. Some refuse.

Whenever somebody brings up the "a long, long time ago..." argument I just want to slap them. Yes, a long, long time ago things were different. For example, we didn't have penicillin! Or, sterile instruments! See, as human beings we are supposed to grow, become more enlightened, embrace learning and humanity. Just because a woman used to have her flippin head lopped off for sneezing in public and now is MERELY caned for ______ (fill in the blank) does not mean we have come a long way. I am pretty certain this part of the world, with it's religious overtone, is well documented as misogynist. It doesn't exactly make me want to run out and date a Muslim guy.*

*something my niece did. Then, after she converted (required) she married him. NOW she is repenting in leisure. She's repenting a LOT. The police are usually involved.

Brianna, you misinterpret.
 

My point was in response to the person who was claiming atrocities were done in the name of Christianity a mere couple hundred years ago.

My belief (hey, as a Christian, perhaps it's biased. I'm trying not to be.) is:

In today's enlightened world....

* Humans do some pretty bad stuff, irrespective of one's religion. This includes people who are Christian, Muslim, insert-religion-here.

* Christians do not commit atrocities *in the name of Christ*.

* Muslim extremists (Not all who follow Islam. Extremists. Let's be clear.) DO commit what most would call atrocities, *in the name of Islam* (bigV will disagree).

So Brianna, my point was comparing activities in religion hundreds of years ago, with today. And today, Islam has some serious issues, whereas Christianity, in my opinion, doesn't engage in these atrocities.

That's my opinion.

Why, it's Fun Trivia Time!
3,600 killings and assassinations over the past 30 years. Muslim or Christian?

Your answer, along with many other instances.

"Enlightened World", indeed.

I was agreeing with ya, mlandman. I was talking about the blue-boxed text above your comment. Islam is a comparatively young religion. It appears determined to make it's own mistakes rather than learn from others.

Ultimately, I don't think most conflicts have much to do with religion in the end. They are more about property, power, wealth and mind control than anything else. In the end, no matter which religion is dominant, the head guy is still the one with the most money, toys and women.

When Christian leaders attempt to convince their followers to vote for representatives that want to make laws that regulate certain religious beliefs/behaviors then yes, I think I used the right word - proselytize . I'd be fine if all you folks would be satisfied with singing the praises of Jesus (just not on my doorstep-go tell someone who hasn't heard it already).