Merry F'in Christmas - I want a divorce.
 

said Mrs Lookout. She just doesn't feel passion for me the way she thinks she should... so divorce is the obvious answer.

i am seriously freaking out right now. i truly love her and i could go on for pages... but i have a 4 1/2 year old son who is the bright spot of my life. I can't even imagine not waking up a couple doors down from him without hyperventilating. seriously. i can't even think straight.

just last week i mentioned to someone that i had absolutely everything i've ever dreamed of. A beautiful wife, a healthy son, a decent career, nice house... now i'll have the opportunity to sit in a crappy apartment crying my eyes out missing my wife and son with the gnawing realization that my sales abilities evaporate when i'm under family stress.

fuck.

Holy shit.

I'm not even going to begin to act like I know what to say. All I can say at this point is that, in due time, you WILL get through this. And whatever we can offer you in terms of support, advise, admonitions or whatever is called for is yours for the taking - we'll do what we can to help you navigate your way through this difficult period.

I'm really sorry to hear this - whatever is going on, join with your wife to shield the child - don't deny or pretend, instead, acknowlege but minimize.

Dude! That sucks man... we are with you... the worst of this is the first week or two when you can't imagine your shit hanging together.

You can't imagine it now because it's like getting punched in the gut. Expect to go throught the five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. I was way better after the anger phase...

You will come out of it stronger and wiser. If you think your life was good before, it will be unimaginably better with someone who DOES have that kind of passion for you.

We are here guy, write about what moves you... you have the freedom to do that and our support.

here's my own divorce thread - a lot of people have good advice in it.

Two years later, things are way better now than when I was married. What a dumb loveless marriage! My big regret is that it went on as long as it did.

Lookout, I don't know what to say to you because I want to make things right and I know nothing will do that at this moment. Some of us here in the Cellar, myself included twice, have gone through this particular hell and I know that I, for one, will be here for you. I know how much you love your wife. Now, remember: you deserve to be loved that much in return. My thoughts are with you and your son.

Crap. I'm sorry man. Listen to Tony, he laid it all out here as it went down and gets major props for dealing with it and moving on.

Is there any way you can get custody? After all, she is initiating this.

Damn.


I'm surprised....You have always said good things about her.....not even the usual husbandly gripes.
I suppose something had to happen since you've been on a roll at work with fun trips on the side.

Sometimes living in a garage and struggling to survive brings people together, as equal partners, with a common goal. But then he becomes the breadwinner and she becomes the wife/mother, jealousy rears it's ugly head. He's envious of her relative freedom and she's longing for the social interactions of the business world, but of course they are both wrong in that they don't (want to) see the whole picture.

Sorry, I'm babbling.....any indication of a paramour?....or career? You know, I have to get away from you so that I can (blank).

Realisticly, we here in the Cellar can't do anything for you except offer dubious advice. I say dubious because we can't know all the variables, only generalities.
But that said, there are people here who genuinely care and make an excellent sounding board. We have a sum total of experience that's incredible and can offer at least three possible solutions to any question in a heartbeat.

Besides, I'm nosey as hell, so keep me informed....please. ;)

she has been very successful in her chosen field for 16 years, in fact last year is the first time i ever made more $$$ than her. so this isn't a bored housewife thing.

boyfriend? she says no. but of course she would even if it was true. just kind of the way it works i guess. she says she just wants to be alone, but i know her past. she hasn't been alone (without an SO) ever. so with that knowledge i have to admit that there probably is someone that she is at least interested in, whether or not she has acted on it.

custody? that would be damn near impossible. she is a great mother, so i have nothing to counter the normal child-goes-to-the-mother rule. i could drag out skeletons from before the boy was born, but that would be pointless and only be negative for all of us. i sat in his room from about 3AM on this morning just weeping. i can't imagine a world where i don't hear him talking in his sleep from across the house. as i type i am listening to him hum the "Star Wars" theme and play with his toys.

the fact is that i love her. i am quite often "in love" with her. but not always. i think "in love" is just the warm fuzzy feeling that comes and goes with stress and happiness in life. she thinks we shouldn't be married because she really honestly loves me, but she isn't "in love" anymore. the truth is that we hit a rough stretch around every christmas because she always gets a bit depressed and starts drinking a little bit more... we've always made it through it before. but she always had an open mind about working things out before. now she has already figured out how we will handle little lookout's weekly schedule and things like that. she doesn't have an open mind towards working things out at all.

last night she was telling me that it is obvious there is no passion left because we don't do anything fun anymore. when we are together we just stare at each other... WTF??? we/she has laughed more this year than ever before. we went to europe/mexico/2 cruises/SoCo, etc. we've been averaging 2 nights a week just the two of us sitting out in the backyard by the fireplace laughing and being goofy, making plans, talking about worries. a week ago she booked a week for the three of us and my parents in disneyland. if she really had decided this "some time" ago - why would she have gone and booked a vacation for all of us? it just doesn't add up.

we aren't the passionate couple we were 6/7 years ago, but who is passionate ALL the time after the first few years, a child, etc? she still gets flowers and other surprises frequently, cards all the time, etc. so, we don't have to fight the urge to maul eachother whenever we're in the same room like we did in the beginning. isn't that what happens when relationships mature?

i'm really struggling right now with all of this. to make matters worse, i don't really have much of a support network to tap into right now. we're not letting anyone know anything until after Christmas - no point in spoiling it for everyone right? OUR friends are really mostly her friends. i have my three best friends back in illinois, but this is so far out of their arenas that the advice will be nil, and i'm not near them so i can't just go and commiserate. my friends here have all drifted away as our economic situation improved and theirs didn't. those that stuck around have disappeared for other reasons. i am seriously sitting here alone with my grief right now. i talked to the pastor of our church and he is great to talk to, but not someone i'm going to go hang out with to get me through this.

i've never had a problem being alone before, but it has been a long time since i even contemplated the possibility of it. i don't even know how to function as a single individual past the college/bar scene days. i'm one of those weird guys that didn't even daydream about not being burdened with a family. it just never occurred to me to think about it. i've had everything i ever wanted.

i was just having a conversation with someone about a week ago about goals and dreams. he was trying to get me to set some new goals and i was having a hard time. he just looked at me like i was an idiot when i said, "i have everything i've ever dreamed of. a beautiful, loving wife, an amazing child, a great career, a beautiful home, and some measure of financial security." what more is there except for more of the same?

OK, then if this is a recent idea she my be running it up the flag pole. Don't salute. Don't give up. Work on making the holidays as pleasant as you can and maybe it will subside if you can pull it off without making it look like a desperate attempt to win her over.... even though we both know it is.

You mentioned you were making an effort to triple your income this year. Could this be a test of whether she or the business comes first? Those trips you took, maybe you said something about difficulty of arranging your schedule to fit them in that made her think the business had become more important than she is. Yes, I'm grasping.

Extended passion is tricky. Too little and you're bored with me. Too much and you're an animal that treats me like a sex object. But more often than not I think it's a catch all excuse for something they can't (or won't) put their finger on.

It seems you've talked more about losing the boy than losing her. Is that an order of priority? Rank of importance? I ask because a friend of mine in this situation was like, she's leaving..oh well, but his 4-ish son going with her really tore him up. As it worked out, the boy spent the weekends with him and they have a great relationship. He'll graduate from Penn State this spring.

Maybe you should have protested the wet tee shirt contests? :confused:

it is definitely not that my career comes first. that has been a sticking point in the past because i absolutely refused to put in anything ahead of her and my son (in that order).
she is much more career oriented than i am. but this isn't a move to give her more time for her career. she is a self employed cosmetologist and is so successful that she doesn't accept new clients.

i have been speaking about being away from my son, more than her mainly because that is a completely foreign concept to me. i have never been separated from a child (except for business trips). the very thought panics me.

if i can explain it this way: the feeling i get while thinking about being away from her are a piercing pain in my chest and a headache from all the "what if" thoughts. the idea of her moving on without me...what if she moves and realizes i reallydidn't add any value to her life, etc. just spinning thoughts, pain, and sorrow. i don't know how, but i know that will be able to stand up again and move on. i don't know what i would move on to... but i know there is something. ( the problem here is that she has been the driving force that has made me succeed in the areas that i have, so what will drive me in her absence?)


the thought of life without my son is a crushing pain in my chest. i can't breathe when i think about not having him with me. since september of 2000 i haven't had a thought that wasn't about him in some way.

maybe this goes back to my thoughts in a very old thread about "what is our purpose?" i thought then and i do now that my purpose is to make my son a better man than i am.

i don't know, i'm getting all jumbled again and i have to go anyway.

time to go coach 8 4-6 year olds in the soccer game. if i can keep from crying while watching my son run up and down the field i will call it a success.

Not much more that I can add except that I agree with Bruce that this might be a test or call for attention. See if she pursues it after the holidays. If so, consider offering marriage counseling. If it is a call for attention, she might just have issues she wants to bring up. If so, listen.

Whatever happens, taking care of the kid is obviously the number one priority.

The only other thing I could possibly say is good luck. It sounds trite, but I mean it.

cosmetologist….oh shit.
So she spends all day listening to women bitch about their lives and how it’s their husbands fault. Now, with a kid, you’ve settled into a lifestyle, she’s afraid of getting into a rut and she’ll end up like her whining clients.
Or, she’s listening to them lie about how wonderful their lives are and wonders why she’s a working mother/homemaker and not traveling in a sedan chair carried by four hunks.
Does she have any men as clients?

I’d speculate that 5 years into motherhood she’s having doubts about herself, you, the future and her choices. Wondering what if, maybe panicking a little about what will be.

Does she have any friends, with their heads screwed on tight, that can council her? Someone she can talk to about what she’s thinking? It’s a pretty good bet she won’t tell you exactly what’s on her mind even if she can figure it out herself. Often it’s nagging doubts that can’t be expressed exactly so they can’t be addressed.

Don’t give up…don’t do anything to make it worse….hide some cash…..keep us posted. :fingerx:

her friends... that has been a complaint for years - that she doesn't have any really good friends. she has been hanging out with 2 girls from work for about a year. one just got married but gushes constantly how "lookout is the ideal husband". the other is a nasty little backbiter who will knife everyone every chance she gets. they both go out a lot and party though. for a year or so she would meet with some of the ladies from church for a Bible study. as boring as those chicks were i have to admit, that she has never had her head screwed on tighter than she was then. she quit that earlier this year, right about the time she started hanging out with the work chicks more, started smoking again, and drinking a little more. there is some history of substance abuse so i'm really just hoping and praying that we aren't back there.

5 years into motherhood... i'm sure that is part of it. the thing that really gets me there though is that earlier this year we sat down and decided that we wanted another one. we agreed to try - just paying attention to timing, etc. nothing so far as fertility clinic stuff. even a month ago, we were still actively following her cycle. again, not activities i would expect if this is something she had decided upon "some time" ago.

male clients? hot chick with outgoing personality who does hair... yeah, she has more than a few.

she doesn't want the stay at home thing, that much i know. when i got to the point that my income could carry us with some comfort i made the offer. it is hard for her to even keep a normal schedule - she loves what she does. end of story. she'll die doing hair.


as i sit back and think on it, if i'm honest about it i'm able to blow through most of her "reasoning" for this decision as pure smokescreen. my gut right now is telling me that she hooked up with someone when she got toasted with the girls last week. rather than deal with feeling guilty and fessing up she is just going to end the marriage -"for my benefit" so i can find someone who loves me the way i love her. that sounds like a huge leap from what you all have read, but with all the little pieces here and our ancient past... it makes sense. sad thing is, that if she just came home and said "i cheated, i'm sorry" i would deal with it and get on with life. but she absolutely refuses to ever be in a position of weakness so that isn't likely. ah, well - it's just my instinct talking anyway.

i don't know if i mentioned it but we are going to see a councelor on Friday. she is just doing it to humor me though. she had the appointment booked just for herself before she dropped the bombshell on me. this is a guy that we met with a year or so ago to help us with communication skills. she walked away from her sessions with him really feeling good about life and came to grips with some of her past issues. if she can keep some semblance of an open mind here it could be a good thing. or i could just be deluding myself.

Lookout, I don't have anything useful to add here, but I just want to let you know how sorry I am. I really hope that going to the counsellor will help you two find your way back to each other. My own biggest fear is losing a loved one. I can only imagine what you must be feeling with the prospect of losing your wife and custody of your son.

I've watched a few people go through divorce. They all make it to the other side. It will suck for a while, but it will get better. But, hopefully you two can avert it.

Good luck, and hang in there.

all i want back is the life i was thankful for a month ago. is that too much to ask? seriously. i don't need to be rich, famous, good looking, or the smartest guy on the planet. i just want back what i had.

All of this sounds a little too frighteningly familiar.

Lookout...good luck. Please do float the counseling balloon, it can be highly useful. Failing that, please always remember that *you* are a valuable human being, and take care of yourself fiercely.

Well shit, that's a motherfucker of a curve ball, I can't begin to imagine how you feel or possibly have any advice to offer but I just wanted to say good luck, really. I really hope you can work it out, you're a bright guy and I'm sure equally tenacious, good luck.

Lookout, I'm so incredibly sorry to hear this. Even going to counseling just "to humor you" is a start, IMHO. You'll obviously have many other things on your mind for quite awhile, but make sure you keep checking back with us occasionally for your own sanity--a virtual support net is better than none.

Sucks like a pail of leeches.

There is something missing from this picture.

Hang tight, don't be rash.

Ya Gotta Believe! If you feel it's a waste of time, for whatever reason, it will be.
Go in there and do your honest best to make it work. Get the councelor on your side to help convince her that you're sincerely willing to work on any issues she has.
You know what you've got to lose. And no coulda/shoulda/woulda down the road. Go baby! :thumb:

Is it possible that working on a second child freaked her out? She may have started getting visions of mini-vans and PTA meetings. Don't give up on her without a fight. She may just need to open her eyes to what she has.

You say she had some substance abuse issues in the past and has started to drink more now. Is it possible that she is once again having difficulties with that? Would you pick up on it if she had started using her drug of choice again? It might explain why she is making this irrational choice that is so grevious all around. I'm sorry to read your news Lookout. These things are always painful, no matter what. Your situation seems especially so. Hang in there, big guy.

dude. don't give up. Don't let her give up. make sure she know you won;t give up. yell and scream, kick , fight, accuse, do everything you can to keep her. and if that doesn;t work, put a hit out on her.

laugh, dammit.

You and your son will get through this eventually if you must, but I hope you don't have to. Make the most of this time that you'll be together before Christmas, doing whatever you can to get her to think twice about a divorce. If you end up living apart, it may be much harder to get her to consider not divorcing.
Nobody can ever say that I didn't have good reason to divorce my husband (the father of my kids), and I love my current husband, but in hindsight, I wish I had taken a different road. I believe the main reason I went through with the divorce was because of someone I'd became involved with (at work) pushing me so hard to go through with it, to cut off communication with my husband and to only focus on why I should divorce him.
And although it kind of contridicts what I just said about making the most of this time, there is one thing about most women that I believe is true - I'm just not sure if I can word it correctly. It's about the "thrill of the chase". She knows you want her, that she can have you. If the time comes when you must seperate, maybe it would be a benefit to you, for her to believe that you're just fine, and that it would actually require work on her part to "get" you.
Cellar ladies...help me out here.....and if it's not good advice, speak up! I want to help, not make things worse by any means!
Good luck. Agreeing to counseling means there's hope, even if she's not serious about it at first. The only other thing that I know for a fact is that my son is MUCH happier now that me and the ex get along great. He was miserable when we continued to fight and bad-mouth each other after the divorce.

Listen to some B.B. King, especially "The Thrill is Gone".

But seriously, I'm in a similiar situation, lookout. I wasn't really aware of the so-called "stages" (I'm pretty sure I'm in the acceptance stage right now but I did go through all those stages, funny it also reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where Homer finds out he's dying). Here's the best advice you'll get. Whatever you do, look forward. Don't look back and dwell on the things you had (if it truly is over). Regret is one of the worse human emotions causes us to come to a stop in progression.

I was with my wife for 6 years (married 2 years of that). We were together since I was 16, so I can understand how hard it is to be alone after not having been for a while. Find a friend (the new friends I've made plus my parents has helped a lot). If you don't have one, make one (hard concept I know, I've made a lot of friends in the past 2 months than most in my life since I found out she was leaving and left).

Most importantly of all, have fun (once/if you're single)! Don't look for anyone for a relationship. Just look for people to have fun together with.

Lookout,

I can understand what you are going through. My wife recently told me she had an affair, and she is not sure whether she wants to try at a marraige again. This kind of loss is devastating. It is worse than if she died.

I also thought things were OK in my relationship (not great, but I was making an effort)...they were not. There is nothing you can do to make her stay - but I recomend some conseling. I spent many nights crying because I thought I would never see my wife again - and I do love her. I think she is wonderful. Obviosly the feeling was not mutual.

I am still in the middle of my crisis - so I will tell you all how it turns out.

I would also like to add that the biggest problem for me is the affair changed my entire world view. It shatttered what truths I thought existed. My wife could not only love me, but another man. I htought I was special to her, and we were special. That is no longer true. I still feel very insecure about everything.

The world does not seem "fair" anymore - my rose-colored glasses are off, and I see the world for the ugly thing it is: a place that is full of hatred and deceipt. Perhaps I will return to my normal self eventually, but it does hurt, eh?

You make an interesting observation, Hemlock. There are people who do seem to figure out a way to love and hold special more than one person, but it is damn difficult.

Does/did your wife claim to love both you and the object of the affair?

In the last few weeks she has said she loves us both....she has also said she does not know how she feels about him...I think she may be trying to not hurt my feelings by lying to me. But she is very confused wither way.

She has also said she is "in love" with him, and not "in love" with me. I read that as saying she does not like being around me lately, but she enjoys being around him. Well, I have been a jerk lately...my wife did have an affair. I see him as someone who says "yes" to whatever she says, but I question more - because of teh relationship we have. Perhaps I have questioned too much.

Either way, she is still my best friend - and I am hers. I just hope we can make it more than that again.

Don't you hate that the answer is to give up? I am experiencing the same thing. So your relationship is not perfect. Why is that a reason to give up? Why not work at it to make it the relationship you want? Why do you want to quit? Are her parents divorced? Stats show that kids from broken homes see divorce as a "solution" when a "problem" comes up in marraige. But all marraiges have their problems...it is up to the people involved to work through them, and talk.

Just my two cents...I think she is chickening out. But you better not tell her that...

I tried counseling with my ex for a year and a half, and we remained married for 3 years after we started... all that trying to save the relationship was a massive waste of time and energy. Looking back it would have been way better for me if we had just ended it.

But everyone's situation is different and I know people who "worked hard" on their marriage and saved it.

I just finished reading Nick Hornby's HOW TO BE GOOD and it seems to fit this thread. Interesting look at marriage and divorce.

I've got a book too. "Screw The Bitch" from Loompanics Unlimited. Amazon has it. It's an uphill battle to get centered again after having the future snatched away. It's too easy to be bitter and paranoid. Time heals all (non-fatal) wounds, but the scars remain.
:(

I guess what I was trying to say in my earlier post was that sometimes a relationship loses something when it's no longer a challenge...
All of the "you'll be okay" advice is right, but I just really hope your marital trouble doesn't end in divorce. Of course you can't stop it sometimes, but I have a lot of admiration for hearing that you're already willing to forgive an affair, if that's the case. Shit happens, life happens, and forgiving a mistake, or forgiving infidelity even if she doesn't regret it, shows that you're willing to work on whatever it is that is wrong. Sometimes it not only saves a marriage, but makes it better. Maybe she needs to figure out that the passion that couples feel at first simply does not last forever. When my husband and I met 3 1/2 years ago, we would stay in bed all week-end, for the last couple years we've been in a "routine". Sometimes it's only a 2-3 times a month routine. Sometimes, I even feel like I love him more than I'm "in love" with him, but I'm 46 years old, been through a few relationships, and know it would be this way with anyone. I'm going to continue to hope really hard for the two of you...

Any lively conversation and happy roll in the hay can provide us with such a rush that, after a couple of successive sparkling new encounters, free of the baggage of a longer relationship, we may very well feel like we are "in love" with the other person. The human animal is wired that way. It is Nature's way of ensuring that we spread our superior genetics (well, mine are superior, anyway, and I'm sure all of yours are as well) around as widely as possible. New=Heightened *Everything* on the biochemical level.

Unfortunately, we're also creatures of consciousness, and as such, of *conscience*. For my own part, I know intuitively, deeply, for certain that the truest measure of love must include an ample helping of respect, perseverence and common sacrifice. These are fundamental things that build the foundations of an enduring relationship, long after the biochemical boil has eased back to a slow simmer.

How are we to balance our gut level desire to boil with our intellectual yearning for a long term simmer? Beats the living shit out of me. I'll let you know if I *ever* am able to beat this thing and win instead of just describing it.

Wow...I'm sorry, lookout. And laebedahs, and hemlock. I don't have anything to add, but you're in my thoughts. It's a spreading disease -- a friend of mine just moved out on his wife and kids after revealing that he's been sleeping with someone he met on a business trip for the last year.

what the hell is the matter with people? It's like an entire generation has decided that the only thing that matters in life is pleasing itself, and to hell with everyone else. We've created a booming market for "therapists" who charge exorbitant amounts of money to tell us how great we really are inside, and how we need to make ourselves happy and such, but personal responsibility has flown the coop.

For those of you who are being cheated on, you have my utmost sympathy and best wishes. For those of you who are cheating, and haven't told anyone, pull your effing head out of your ass before you destroy someone else's life. I know it doesn't seem like much compared to your genitals getting rubbed by someone other than your S.O., but really, monogamy isn't really all THAT bad.

Oh, and lookout? She's seeing someone. And you know it. [bitterness alert]the number of unabused, heterosexual women in this world who leave their spouses without having an alternate already waiting in the wings can be listed on a single sheet of paper.[/voice of experience] You'll get the truth out of her if you keep at it. Step one is to dry up the tears. She relishes the power she holds over you.

I gotta stop. I'm really sorry, guys (and/or women). No one deserves to get trampled like that.

lookout, i'm really sorry this is happening to you. i've been through a divorce and it wasn't pretty. no matter how bad things seem like they can't get worse, they can. not to be the pessimist here, but with the shit that i went through in the last 4 years has been, well, bleak. i CAN say that things do get better. hopefully you won't travel down the path that i did as well as others and things work out. your efforts to save your marriage are warranted here. no matter what, keep your chin up, stand tall, and be proud of who you are. NO ONE can take that from you.

Oh fuck! All I can say is it takes two to make a relationship so if she has decided to throw in the towel, you're better off getting used to the idea than trying to change her mind. If she is indecisive (and the willingness to go to counseling may show that) then fight your corner.
Good luck.

Well, half of all marriages end in divorce.

BUT

The other half end in death. :whofart:

Pollyanna. :p

My family has just endured a divorce, sounding similar to the one you say you are going through. The husband and wife team i would honestly have said were the most romantic and in love couple i have ever known.. so in love, always picnicing.. holding hands, just so sweet. Then one day he just left her for another woman. completely out of the blue.. and our whole family is still in shock.

I have now seen the wife go from being a strong, beautiful woman (someone who i held as a role model) to a twig thin, emotional wreck. she had pinned her hopes and dreams on this one man and he took it all away. It taught me never to let that happen to me, no matter what partnership your in you have to be true to yourself.. because you never know what is going to come around the corner.

Lookout i hope you stay healthy through all this.. it will be hard but i believe you are a fun, excitng, loving, talented and smart man.. and weather you work it out with your wife or not - you must stay true to who YOU are, and look after your health with utmost priority.

keep on truckin :)

We don't know that for certain. And maybe I'm just naive, too trusting, and just trying to hope not.

(On the other hand, when a break up is because of just one person, there's the chance that after a short time, they'll have to come to the realization that that other person is just another imperfect human being like the rest of us, and not some super special catch.)

A woman at work - 22 yrs old, a really cute, smart, outgoing, laughs a lot, likeable, hard working, very nice & pleasant lady - is married with two small children, both her and husband have good jobs, was looking pretty "down" last week. Turns out they're divorcing.
I was not expecting that - it actually gave me that "punch in the gut" like I felt when I read lookout's post. Having experienced that punch before yourself, you never quite forget it.

So what is the biggest disapointment for these married folks that think they want to bail? Life isn't an ABC soap opera - always surprises, living on the edge, and heart pumping passion ALL OF THE TIME!
And most of us are guilty of not trying harder to keep that fire going for our partner, but if we do put effort into it, you discover that it can keep getting better. Age has its advantages!
In real-life, Brett and I spend much more time talking than getting psychical. We talk about... everything, news, racing, theories we hear on TV - History Channel, Sci Fi, etc. or just talking about our lives before we met.
I'm afraid some of these poeple divorcing aren't looking at the big picture. The most compelling, ususally impulsive choice (made in the heat of passion!) isn't always the right one, and isn't always the decision that they'll end up wanting to live with.

(I sort of feel like we're talking about, but not to, lookout, while he's sitting here waving "Yo! I'm still here!"
Again - Good Luck Lookout. You know all of us just want to help - but at that time when there's nothing "right" we can say. Hang in there. please check in when you can.
Hugs to you, Jr and Mrs. L.

And another thing.

Take yourself out of the equation as to why this is happening. This is not your fault. Repeat: this is not your fault. She is making the decision to jump off the plane at 50,000 feet and it is she who, therefore, is responsible for the mess you now find yourself in. It is a popular defense to find some way to blame it on the other party just to transfer the guilt to them - don't fall for it. You did your share. You did your part. Her feelings changed.

Self-doubt will cripple you with guilt if you let it - don't. The only thing that's different now is how she feels. The only person responsible for the change is her. You have basically just been sucker-punched in broad daylight by a family member and should respond accordingly.

There will be a time for self-examination but not now.

Where did all this come from? My best buddy's wife was cheating on him for years. He was never unfaithful to her. Funny, up until the time he discovered the infidelity, he was "the best husband." But, from the time he found her out until the divorce was final, he was everything wrong in the book and it was his inadaquacies that "caused" her to stray. Rather than address her marital dissatisfaction while they were married, she She feigned happiness to cover her tracks. Meanwhile, she's seeing her very wealthy and very married boss.

She tried to transfer responsibility to him by bringing up every reason in the book - he doesn't make enough money, he isn't this, he isn't that, blah, blah, blah. He never understood why she never told him any of this during the 20 years they were married and raised two kids.

Losing his marriage and family was devastating enough. But the self-doubt she planted and watered almost daily nearly finished him off completely. Good thing he had lots of friends to set things back to right in his head.

People who cheat are traitors.
People who cheat while pretending to be happy in the relationship are a big step below traitors.
People who stab you in the back while smiling at you who then make you think it was all your fault are just slightly better people than child abusers.

Some marriages aren't meant to be and slowly dissolve. But its the ones that end "out-of-the-middle-of-nowhere" that have the biggest potential to be emotional death knells to the blindsided partner. If she was "fine until yesterday" then, as far as I'm concerned, you are off the hook responsibility-wise and should bear no guilt for what happened.

But, the attack is coming so get ready for it.

And when it does, we'll be right here to set things right.

She's got her Cosmo-readin', man-hatin', gum chewin, New Jersey accent spewin', dingbat friends of hers backin' her up but you [cracks knuckles] have the entire Cellar backin you up. Man, that just ain't fair. :)

B, I admire this post, good work by you.

Excellent. I had to read it more than once to fully absorb and appreciate it - it's just the best advice I've ever read. It sums up of the truth of the situation. Lookout - any time you start to wonder "What did I do? / didn't do?", STOP and re-read this post! Better yet, print it and carry it around.

Well done, Beestie. :thumb:
Good point. No matter what his shortcomings have been in the past, if she hasn't at least brought them up for discussion, they are moot.

I hear people talking about how they, or their friends, were blindsided, and lament the past xx years being taken away. But that's not true..... nothing chages the past. It's the future, that you've been planning, working toward, looking forward to, that's being snatched away. You've been suddenly voted off the island and have to start over toward a new goal. That always sucks.

First of all, I hope the entire thing was just some temporary bout of insanity on Mrs. L's part. I hope the entire thing has already blown over, but if not:

YAY, Beestie! Great words of wisdom in your post! I, too, have been there. My last relationship of 6 years ended with the most amazing dissonance and betrayal. In my case, I had unwittingly become involved with a very slick con artist who seemed so real at the time. One morning I woke up and he had left for someone else along with over 20,000 of my money unaccounted for. It makes a girl's head spin, and I suspect it would any guy's, too, if he were subjected to the same treatment.

I consider you my worthy opponent on many other matters, Lookout, but in this matter, if that's what it comes down to, I am 100% on your side! I'm a girl, too, and me the other members of the female persuasion around here can give you lots of insight into how a woman's mind can work and give you plenty of support and deadly ammo, should you need it.

I so hope you won't need it! But if you do, count me on your side on this one. Its just wrong!

The only question I have - and perhaps it shows my ignorance of human behavior - is why do people engage in such destructive behaviors?

We as humans can think, and although sometimes we do not, we have the power to overcome our more "primitive" instincts.

No idea here. I guess people are just jerks, and unwilling to change.

And sometimes they are very selfish.

Lookout? How are you doing?

Not necessarily. I posted this thread awhile back. I never did see a counselor (though we have in the past). I have mentioned this before, but I frequently battle depression, and am currently on Zoloft for it. As it turns out, occasionally when it gets bad, I tend to blame hubby for what I perceive to be all the 'bad' stuff in my life at the time. Shortly after posting said thread, I realized that I was in a lower than usual low, and instead of a counselor, I upped my meds for awhile, and checked out a bunch of books about marriage from the library. I never mentioned to him anything that I wrote in that post, thankfully. I keep a mental list of all of the things that are great about him and us so that when I start to question things, I can whip it out and counter every gripe I *think* I have with a fact. So far this has kept me from doing something really stupid, like actually moving out, or cheating etc.

Where I am going with this is maybe the same type of thing is happening with her. She is feeling really shitty (un-diagnosed depression?), doesn't know why, and due to the way the world works, blames the person closest to her for her problems. I am probably WAY off base, but at least for me, one of the signals that I am in a low is I start to question my marriage. Fortunately I have never cheated on my husband when I was busy blaming him for all my bad feelings, which is why I say to noodle, cheating may not be the reason for her 'crazy' behavior.

Check out that thread, there was some really SUPER advice there. I actually feel kind of stupid that so many cellarites had so much good to say, and I was just mental at the time and thought I wanted a divorce...

I truely hope that she figures out WHY she feels the way she does, and that it is something that can be fixed. Be it getting a less jaded group of friends, on medication, whatever. We are here in your corner while you battle this horrible situation. Hug the little one a lot. It should help.

Don't That's why. ;)

not doing well at all. she went to the first counseling session on her own and came back with good words. she promised that she will be 100% committed to seeing if this will work. the problem is that she has already decided that it can't work, so she has only committed to seeing it to that end. i will see the guy on tuesday for my session, so we'll see how it goes.

we just had a heartbreaking 90 minute conversation about the issue and it is absolutely apparent that her mind is made up even if she is saying she is willing to try. what she isn't saying is that she WANTS it to work.

we have spent the last 4 nights laughing and joking and talking and her telling me how much she loves me... like a happily married couple. until tonight she has been my best friend and lover with hope for the future - from 4-midnight. she wakes up in the morning cold and distant.

immediately following her session, she stopped even the returning the "i love you" we always exchanged.

she swears up and down and sideways that there is no one else - i remain skeptical. she is throwing out the "you don't make enough money" bit. i make a fair living and it is increasing - but she still won't quit working, so i know that isn't the real issue. she says i am a great friend, she doesn't love me anymore, and can't remember when she ever did.

the hard part is that if i start pulling my defenses together to protect myself for what seems a likely divorce, then i will have put up walls that guarantee a divorce is inevitable. i'm not ready to throw in the towel

it has only been 7 years, and i cannot even imagine a life without her in it. i'm circling the drain into despair and hopelessness.

i know if we do divorce in order to get my fair share of the stuff it will be a battle which will forever poison our relationship - which is only important for little lookout's sake.

i've that i can sleep though. Ambien is a magical little pill. take it while standing over your bed- you aren't going anywhere. wake up six hours later well rested. tht has got me back on my workout routine at least. so, i've got that going for me. otherwise i would spend my nights replaying every conversation we've had, every kiss, every shag, everyday filled with pain where we just held each other.
http://cellar.org/attachment.php?att...tid=6761&stc=1

Damn, Lookout, just damn! When I was on the cusp of my divorce from a 20 year marriage, I went into this divorce support group trying to find answers. The counselor said the very fact that I was there meant that my marriage was over. He said that in his experience, once one member of the marriage stated that they wanted out in no uncertain terms, very few couples managed to put things back together.

Not what you want to hear, I know. The accusation that you don't make enough money is a low blow. It sounds to me as if you are making a pretty good living, but what really matters is that your worth as a husband, a lover, a friend, and a father cannot be measured in terms of dollars and cents. Yeah, money is nice, but its only the icing on the cake of the good man you truely are.

And you are a good guy, Lookout. We have violently disagreed on many things on this board, but the one thing I have always admired about you is that you didn't let it get overly personal. I have always felt that at the end of the day, we could shake hands and agree to disagree.

That's another heart crushing blow for her to say she doesn't love you anymore, and, in fact, never loved you. Those words make me think she's got someone else. She's deluding herself, making her actions all better in her mind, and sacrificing you and your son on the alter of some "truer" love. She'll eventually discover how messed up this is, but by then you'll most likely be happily re-married to someone else.

I'm sorry for your pain, Lookout. I wish I had words to make it better. Only time does that and time takes time.

I afraid you're gonna have to wrap your heart in alligator hide in order to fight for yourself and your son. :(

If you do your part, then you will have done what is necessary to move on knowing you have tried. Just remember that a large percentage of marriages end in divorce. This means there are a lot of people out there who have gone through the same thing, and half of them are women.

If it does come time to move on, you will find an available pool of women to share experiences with. For a lot of reasons, the few second marriages I know of seem more centered, possibly because the partners are more mature when they start them.

I agree with Mari, Lookout, that we've had our differences of opinion but you seem like a decent guy who is willing to at consider other points of view. I hope this works out for you, whether with your wife or a future companion.

why is it that there is only one thing that i've ever truly valued enough to dedicate all of my energy to succeed at... and that is the one thing that i apparently have failed at?

You have not failed. She is quitting.

A) i'm not giving up yet. i have faith that all things can be resolved.

B) i know that if this ends in divorce that i will survive. i know there are other fish in the sea. i know it is entirely possible that i will find another to my liking. my feeling though, is "why bother"?

before we met, i was a serial dater. that was about the only think i was really, really good at during that time. i'm not talking just sex - i had a few dating relationships where i was the one they called to go to "upscale" locations and we never ended up in the sack. it was a lifestyle. one that i enjoyed. (the thought of it revolts me, now).

all that changed the moment i met her. i had already had one date that day, and had another planned for that night. i met her and my life instantly changed. i felt it happen and knew it for what it was. 5 minutes later called my date for that night and canceled. i never believed in love at first sight or anything like that before then. i certainly wasn't looking for it. but for 7 years i have not had a thought or a decision that she didn't factor into somehow. a wonderful friend, excellent conversationalist, intelligent, well traveled, adventurous, wild, and the single best lover i have ever had, bar none.

the thought of ever finding someone that compares to that experience... i don't know.

Lookout, a relationship, especially a marriage takes TWO partners! If one doesn't want to make the effort to make the thing work, it won't work. You can be in there endlessly giving 100%, but if your partner is giving 0%, its impossible. That is not YOUR fault!

The reasons you have told us that your wife gives for wanting to a divorce are simply not valid. You obviously make enough money. If your wife was never in love with you, she should never have married you. I think she is being dishonest on this count. She is simply making up a lie in order to justify her egregious actions.

A woman does not marry a man she is NOT in love with - OK, a fortune hunter or someone who just wants to coast might, but other than that, we women tend to be very picky about such things. We hold out for the man we will fall in love with.

I have seen you post here about trying to make your relationship work. I have seen your concern and love for your son. I have seen your interactions with members of this forum. By everything I am able to tell about you, you are a decent, caring man.

Suppose you opened up a stock broker's office with a partner. Your partner never comes into work. When he does show up, he hasn't bothered to study the market or read any of the financial analysis or even notice if the economy is going up or down. As a result he makes bad decisions. Eventually your company begins to lose money because of this, despite your best efforts. Is the failure of your company YOUR fault? NO!

Don't beat yourself up this way, Lookout!

Sometimes no matter how bright your suit of lights or how hard you try, the bull wins. :( There is no shame if you did your best, 'cause there ain't no manual.