The Apocalypse Continued...
 

French riots spread outside Paris

EPINAY-SOUS-BOIS, France (Reuters) - Violence erupted in the poor suburbs of northeastern Paris for a ninth consecutive night on Friday as youths set fire to cars and buildings despite a heavy police presence in riot-hit areas.

hmm... Exactly how screwed is Europe?

Yay, first vote into the box.

Riots in slums tend to be self-limiting, rather than the spark that ignites a revolution.

Well, first of all,the article is about France, not all of Europe.

Second of all, two torched buildings and a few cars would be a quiet night in, say, NYC or LA.

I think Europe has a ways to go yet.

Ha! Mari and UG agree on something! You both must be wrong :D

[sarcasm]Bush isnt leading Europe (yet) so they cant be all that screwed. [/sarcasm]

Good start. :eyebrow:

Bird flu is starting to look GOOD.

As UG just reminded me in another thread, he and I both once agreed on something once before. I believe it had to do with the desirability of weapons for self defense.

At any rate, we both managed to get over it.

Perhaps you are being just a tad too apocalyptic when both the right wing nuts and the commie nuts disagree with you. :worried:

Notice what happens when hard line extremists take charge. In Israel, it created the murder of Rabin and a second Intafada. In South Asia, an extremist Indian government took India and Pakistan literally to within hours of a nuclear war. In Paris, well, even when American cities were burning in the 1960s, it did not continue for nine days which suggest how hard line the French government has become.

These are natural and predictable responses when extremists justify their brutality by political rhetoric rather than first learn reality. Even torture is a good thing. Just ask George Jr - extremist who is told by god what to do. Gitmoize Abu Ghraid, and then blame the enlisted men for doing it. Like Pinochet in Chile and Milosevic in the Balkan, even torture is approved by conservative extremists because, "only we know what the truth is and you can't handle it".

Well, better people have said otherwise. The Senate's 90 to 9 vote supporting a McCain amendment - voted for in direct opposition voiced by conservative extremist Cheney - now makes George Jr torture illegal.

Meanwhile, Paris is still burning thanks to extremist hardline conservatives who just know those people must be evil.

Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition ... for the same reasons. Clearly those other people needed to be saved from themselves - even in Paris. We just need to put more troops on the street. BTW, same applies to Baghdad. Extremist conservative rhetoric proves might makes right.

Maybe someone should first ask some simple questions such as what is the problem? Unfortunately, when political rhetoric becomes fact, then violence, including an almost nuclear war, results.

Why is all of this symbolic of some political thing? Are we pretty sure it isn't just a bunch of assholes out fucking shit up because they can? I know it works that way after the NBA finals here in America.

Actually my vote goes in the not screwed bin. I've just been dwelling on media hype for non or minor issues that gets us more government solutions, that are generally worse than the problems they are purported to solve. an example would be Bush getting in front of the media's bird-flu scheme. Now he can funnel your dollars to whichever outfits he wants... List the media scares presently being pimped, every one of them leads to your pocket book. Speaking of government solutions, did I mention that the Feds protect the over-populated Canada goose which could be carrying the flu to a pond near you? You won't be choosing which fear to bet on, Brother Bush will do it for you. If it were Kerry he'd do the same adjusted for party backers.

Actually, I am more amused by news like this instead of thinking it is a sign of the complete breakdown of European security (I still think Europe is pretty screwed, as opposed to totally screwed like the USA). What news like this proves is that all the hypocracy and self-righteousness France may pour on us for our "civil rights problems" and "social inequities shown up by Katrina" is absurd. Right now, they have twice the problem with being over run by Third World Muslims than the US ever had with our African-Americans. They have more illegal Turks and Algerians than we have illegal Mexicans, and the resulting crime waves around the French capitol are far more extreme than our illegals, who only want to stay unnoticed and work. Hooray for France, they are experts at screwing themselves :rolleyes:

But they have legislated the purity of their language, and make fairly decent, if overpriced, wines.

There exists far more here than most Americans realize. But to keep it simple, only one point is presented and one question asked: Is this an isolated regional incident? Of course not. France has some very serious political problems which is why violence extends across France AND why violence remains ongoing for so many days. France has an outright fear of and denial about globalisation. A fear that extends from how individuals are treated all the way to how France perverts world trade in favor of their own agricultural industry.

Ask yourself. Is your (American) political bias is any different?

I agree with you, but I was bringing up this same situation on this forum earlier in the year, re: the article in Vanity Fair about the exploding and explosive condition of unchecked immigration from Muslim countries and how the "real" French are very nervous about the overlaying or replacement of what "culture" the world has associated with France since the Middle Ages. They have a serpent by the tail now, they can't let go of it and they can't get rid of it either.

The Vanity Fair article also pointed out that the recent upswing in anti-Semitism and destruction of Jewish property and synagogues in France, which is giving France a black eye in international organizations which they belong to, is directly attributable to the growing percentage of Muslims there, who will not accept that they live in a secular country now and that kind of hate is not permitted.

IOW symptoms of 'racism' against anyone or anything that is not French. Somehow it is about immigrants who refuse to live a secular life? That's rather naive. These are second and third generation immigrants that have long been angry about being second class citizens. Did the lesson of 1960s American south not demonstrate what happens when some 'second plus' generation citizens are treated also as second class citizens?

I don't see nor hear Muslims demanding that France become a Muslim state. What I do hear is Muslims, Africans (who are neither Muslim nor Arab), and other minorities complaining about being treated as second class "niggers".

Remember France is a nation that blames ills on others such as illegal immigration. BTW, did you notice Americans even in the Cellar make the same complaints about them evil illegal immigrants who are destroying the American way of life? There are lessons to be learned from our peers. Welcome to inevitable globalisation.

What is the complaint from those immigrants in France? Number one complaint is no jobs. So it must be their fault? It must be their insistance on practicing Islam principles? From The Economist of 5 Novermber 2005 Show me where and why this problem has not been simmering; only made worse by French national denial and accusations of Islamic extremism?

Next step - does France blame it on Al Qaeda? Or do the French start admitting this has long been a problem created by a French 'Caste' system. A system where Africans have French citizenship officially - but are second class citizens pragmatically.

just a quick comment on racism in another European country - Switzerland. Switzerland has a sizable number of Turkish "guest" workers. The Turks do everything the Swiss don't want to dirty their hands with and many Swiss view the Turks with contempt. I have heard of no major riots breaking out in Switzerland, however.

I think that this is because the Swiss would simply rid of themselves of the problem completely if such things were to happen. Switzerland was never a colonial power as France was and feels no special obligation to give ANY foreign nationals special consideration.

I'm curious about this segment of the french population "largely confined to grim suburban housing estates". Are these people oppressed because they are Muslim, undereducated or simply not french? :confused:

The term "suburban housing estates" or housing blocks are simply another word for what is called in America "the projects". I am struck by virutally every 'on the street' interview cited by BBC World Service. Quotes from all six random interviews: It gets even more interesting. Sarkozy is a second generation immigrant. And yet his solution would make Urbane Guerilla proud. He advocates confronting riots only with more force. That is simply a formula for escalation. Did we not learn, for example, why 1968 Harlem (NYC) did not go up in flames? Instead of confronting potential violence with force, Mayor Lindsay even personally walked the streets every night. Talking to the people. Learning of the problems. Addressing the issues rather than blindly use force.

Worse still, another lesson from 1968. You would be surprised how many peers actually (and quietly) hold very racist opinions. Opinions that are not exposed until events such as 1968 riots or the current French crisis occur.

Unfortunately many still see all this in terms of Mosques or some underlying violence inherent in Islam. But that is repeatedly not what street interviews say. Those street interviews are exactly what one would expect if the second class citizenship is institutionalized and the people had no Martin Luther King or Gandhi to lead them to a non-violent solution.

Rosa Parks could have resulted in a violent backlash. Instead it was lead by Martin Luther King into a non-violent solution. Therein lays a challenge for all sides in France. The French civil disorder spreading across their country is a story about more than just two sides.

I agree with TW.

In the 19th century Baron Haussman destroyed the old short and narrow streets of Paris, and built the “Grands boulevards”.
He built a lot of modern infrastructures like sewers etc …
Some advantages were that Paris became cleaner, the traffic more convenient. Another advantage was that with such wide streets, the police could control popular riots more easily !

All along the “Grands boulevards” he built high buildings. I like how people were living there. The ground floor and the highest floors were reserved for the low class citizens (there was no lift, and the ground floor isn’t always safe). Middle and high classes stayed in the middle floors. (Very high classes were living in particular buildings). So low, middle and high class were living, meeting and melting together.

At the beginning of the 20th century France was suffering from immigration : Italians “Rital”, Polish “Polacs”, Spanish. Extreme rights already wanted to expulse them, they were responsible of unemployment, lost of French culture… Few of us remember that. We just enjoy Emile Zola novels (Italian), Picasso (Spanish), Platini, Koppa (soccers players, sons of Italians and Polish immigrants) etc…

During the first World War, France used African soldiers coming from French colonies (PS : children of “Tirailleurs sénégalais” are always waiting for their income).
After WW2 France needed immigration to rebuilt the country, it was the full employment. So came north African, and black African workers. France quickly built suburbs with high modern and dehumanised buildings.
At the beginnings living in these suburbs was nice with all kinds of people : native French and immigrants. But finally those buildings badly grew old. Only the low class citizens and immigrants stayed there. Hopeless territories for hopeless people.

France thus built ghettos which suffer from lack of links between social classes.

Immigrants are the first who suffer from unemployment (they often are less skilled and at equal level suffer from racism). Second generation immigrants are still not French and no more African, Algerian etc… They’re looking for their identity and the society really doesn’t help them.
They want to work like everybody, be able to buy everything that TV boasts them. They just want to stop unfairness, racial, economical. (before, former immigrants were also less impatient and more resigned, but they could work)

I really disagree with those behaviours (made by second or and third-generation immigrants, mostly North African Arabs, or by native French people) : destroying other people cars and public structures. They can’t see any other solution.

Our anticrime interior minister and deep psychopate, (son of Hungarian immigrant) Nicolas Sarkozy’s first decision in 2003 was to revoke a police captain who tried to help communication between police and the young population of suburbs.
He never stopped pouring oil on fire.
- Calling young immigrants, the "thugs".
- Wanting to use the “Kärcher” to clean them !!!
- Rising a French Islamic fanatic as an enemy, despite nobody has ever heard of him before.

Hopeless people’s anger can easily be used. Riots really began last week when SOMEBODY (who ???) dropped a tear gas grenade (coming from police munition) in a mosque !!!

During the first gulf war, Arabian, Islamic immigrants stayed quiet in France. They don’t want to set their religion and way of life in France. (Excepted some seldom fanatics)

There are real social problems but medias are building political and religious theories to explain them, and still more divide people.

PS 1 : There are not a lot of Turkish immigrants in France (more in Germany)
PS 2 : Medias are building political and religious theories but I still believe in conspiracy theory. Sarkozy, Bush, Blair… idem

I agree with tw also.

My French teacher in high school - 25 years ago - told a story about a time she was visiting a French family. The maid came in and everyone at the table went silent and stared uncomfortably at my teacher. After the maid left, they sighed in relief. The maid was black, and the family had the stereotype that all Americans hate all blacks. They expected her to be angry and upset.

When my teacher told the story, she made an interesting point about it: it would have been inconceivable for the black woman to be anything much higher than a servant. That turns the story full circle - of an American society trying to heal from its deep racism problem, and French society that apparently had a racism problem under the surface and did not recognize it for what it was.

Also, for what it's worth, it seems to be partly a policing problem, right? For a long time the police would not engage the suburbs/projects; wouldn't even GO there, and would let even rather major crimes go unpunished. I think the lesson is partly that you can't allow that to happen; you have to police all people and not just the "low hanging fruit".

If you were a cop, and had the choice of fighting violent crime in cultures you don't understand, or spending all day writing traffic tickets, what would you do? It would take a lot of motivation to fight violent crime. A lot more if the culture is completely foreign to you.

Thus the police asking for people's papers and generally hassling them, racially profiling, because that's easy and safe, but not actually going after the hardasses, fighting and solving crime.

Barg, we will find it quite humorous and sad if you try to pin this on Bush and Blair. If the violence continues, your voters will demand all politicians be Sarkozys.

YES, increase the problem in order to bring his own solution, that Sarkozy's policy. (Or perhaps he was just too much influenced by Urban Guerrilla ! :p )

But Sarkozy seems to be too extremist for French people. Weeks ago he was still the best candidate for the next presidency. Now, our prime minister De Villepin who looks more moderate hold the pole position. He looks moderate but he's keeping Sarkozy in his governement...
We're even better than US : We'll only have the choice between two members of the same political party ! French left wing is KO.

You're right, it's a policing problem, but instead of taking preventive humanist measures, too many politicians fight against each other in steril political speeches when it's too late (that's what I wanted to say in "building political theories to explain them"), and put another social pressure to contain people.
We've been waiting for years our suburbs blast.

it would have been inconceivable for my parents (white) to be anything much higher than a servant and a workman.
I don't think French people are SO racist. The main problems are unemployment, education, difference of cultures (of social classes or of immigration).

Speaking with foreign people living in France, French way of thinking is quite negative. We haven't got US "self made man" spirit.

I would just like to clarify my participation in that thread, which I was not able to do as it developed because I was in the hospital. I also did not give the title to that thread, but I read it as "ironic" rather than racist.

Illegal and legal immigrants from Mexico and are now a huge percentage of the population in California, and Fresno county has a higher percentage of them than any other place north of LA. We are waist-deep in them, and they just keep coming. They are not in any way evil, nor as a group are they conniving to destroy ANYBODY'S way of life. I have the right to talk about it because for 12 years I have had more to do with Mexicans than the so-called "white" community; they are my friends, dates, co-workers, bosses, classmates, and my teachers. Mexicans who know me like to tease me that I am more Mexican in attitude than they are. I speak to them all around me during the day and spend all night writing in Spanish and monitoring a bilingual forum. I only watch Spanish TV programs and my radios are all tuned to Spanish pop music stations, so most of the time I know nothing about network TV. I adore Mexico and find the people from there to be warm and interesting.

All they want to do is have a chance to work and raise a family, and they are often excellent parents. There is not a higher percentage of criminals and abusers in the Hispanic population than there is in the US population as a whole, but they have an unfortunate tendency to end up in the spotlight. For one thing, they have no experience or confidence in navigating through the social and legal system of this country, and they tend to "get in trouble" at a rate 4 times higher than other groups. 80% of the court cases in Fresno County have to do with Hispanics. The schools and hospitals are filled with them at a very high percentage compared with only 10 years ago. THIS is what has already cratered the social services in my area. THAT is what disturbs me, not that some hated group has conspired to do this to me and "us". This is simple arithmatic, not a conspiracy or an invasion. If the per-capita income and education level of any given area DECREASES steadily year after year, which is happening to us here, the resulting degradation to the quality of life is inevitable. Taxes are way down, utilization of services has more than doubled, you do the math. It is not racism to report the facts. After filling every other part of our lives, they are now filling our jails. Immigrants are more likely to kill each other, they are more likely to be involved in gangs, they drive without insurance and hit things frequently, and they get tangled up in bad life choices which drag them down. This is not because they are sub-normal or evil people! Far from it. As a group they are no worse than the rest of us, but they are too new to the kind of life and regulations which we take for granted and they slip up a lot. Then they do not take care of the problems so they keep coming back to bite them. They do a LOT of things "all wrong" by our standards, but it's a learning process. The good news is that by the 2nd generation they no longer have too many babies, they start getting to college in greater numbers, they have their own businesses, things start leveling out.

So do not mistake my position in the Illegal Immigrants thread, that's all. I hate the situation and I think it is being "handled" all wrong, if you can say it is being handled at all, but I am not for throwing them all out of the country. Too many of my friends would be gone if you did that.

France is facing the same thing with the Muslims as we have with the Hispanics in this country. The difference between France and the USA just might be because Hispanics are not perceived as having any theocratic or radical-religious leanings. In the post above, I had no intention of analyzing "race relations" so much as pointing out the hypocrisy of other countries coming down on the USA when they have many social wounds of their own festering. Racial inequality is inevitable, no matter what the country or its level of development. Even in Africa, where EVERYBODY is "black", they are busy discriminating and trying to wipe each other out based on any perceived difference you can imagine, this is NOT just OUR personal defect! I perceive a real fear in France that the Muslims WILL try to take over and enforce some kind of cultural and governmental change, if their numbers continue to increase and "if they are given the chance", and this probably has something to do with the police response. Fear like that is not something the "civilized countries" want to admit.

Europe is pretty screwed.

Some parts are pretty when they're not screwed, though.


bwah!

Tonchi then moved on to describe what also happened to Miami after the Marianna boat lift. For a while, the entire economy of Miami depressed as its absorbed mass numbers of Cuba refugees. Incomes dropped. Crime increased. Government services became burdened. And then Miami because prosperous.

Appreciate what an immigrant really is. It is a resource. How good a resource? All depends upon how much the host country wants to welcome that resource.

History has demonstrated that a nation's most productive people are its third generation immigrants. But if those future resources of a country become so frustrated as to even riot, well, the country better first look at itself.

I will sometimes sit in a coffee shop working on, for example, a Maxwell Equation or something as complex looking. What has repeatedly occurred, it is often a waiter or bus boy - an immigrant - who will ask questions - who actually has some education in this advanced math. American eyes too often will call math hard. You tell me who still has an interest in learning? Who has the curiosity that defined the patriotic America? It only demonstrates again why immigrants are always the future of long term growth and prosperity. Tonchi only demonstrates that what happened in Miami also is happening in CA.

Tonchi personally knows five people who fled Castro's Cuba. Tonchi visited Miami both before and after the Cuban influx, and can personally speak about the economic revitalization of that area. Tonchi admires Emilio Estefan and Kike Santander, who practically single-handedly made "Latin" music part of mainstream America in recent years. But TW needs to check out some facts before he draws broad assumptions about Cubans in Miami. The people who led the economic boom were the PROFESSIONALS AND EDUCATED PEOPLE who fled Cuba. They arrived beginning in the early 60's, and men who had been doctors in their native countries were willing to work as janitors. Those families rose to the top again within one generation. Cristina Saralegui's family were publishers in Cuba and they became publishers again in the US. TW is referencing the "MARIEL BOATLIFT" phenomenon which came later, when Castro deliberately emptied the prisons and insane asylums of the dregs of Cuba and sent them in a wave to the US. Boats were actually forced to take these scum or they could not leave. It was not a "rush to freedom", it was a Communist regime seizing a window of opportunity to get rid of the trash which they didn't have the resources to support. These criminals and other undesirables hit Florida and busily went about doing what got them into prison in Cuba in the first place, and to this day Florida has not been able to deport them or deal with them as normal refugees or immigrants, giving them almost a Guantanamo status. They also dispersed quickly to other states, causing a mini "Cuban Crime Wave" until law enforcement realized what was happening and began to deal with it. TW would do well to find out how even other Cuban refugees did not embrace the "Marielitos" and didn't appreciate how they negatively impacted the gains other Cubans had been accomplishing in previous years. Tonchi also personally knows two girls who came over with the Mariel Boatlift. They were scum in Cuba and they are scum in Miami; these girls led an attack on Latin star Paulina Rubio at an awards program, disgracing our fan club and other decent Latinos on national television. Don't make assumptions or give a knee-jerk reaction to "Cubans" in Florida, because you are giving credit across the board and it is not due to all. And definitely do not use the word Mariel around any professionals you meet in Miami, because it is an insult. Even immigrants and refugees have groups they discriminate against ;)

For the differences in the Cuban community which I have mentioned above, California IS NOT the same dynamic as Miami. For one thing, it is a heck of a lot easier to get into California by land, but we do not have the "catch and release" principles running our INS here. In Florida, any Cuban who makes it ashore in the US may stay; if they intercept your boat on the water, you get sent back. Mexicans do not have the same privileges. They are fair game on both sides of the border, but nevertheless many of them come and go constantly, taking money and consumer goods back to relatives which remain in Mexico. Money earned by Mexicans working in the USA and sent home is now the largest income source in their country, having passed petroleum and tourism. I don't intend to discuss the despicable "Plantation Economy" of Fresno County and much of California which encourages importation of cheap and degraded labor. It would take a Federal Commission and 10 years of investigation to make any inroads to stopping that, and besides, I already said elsewhere that I believe it will go around and come back to bite us in the ass if we don't address the problems which our society is creating here and everywhere there is an uneducated and unskilled underbelly.

Yes, I believe that California will be a different and not automatically worse place because of the immigrants. They will contribute a new vitality, but only when they get out from under the Plantation Economy which brought most of them here in the first place. They have nothing in common with the Cubans except dialects of the same language (except for the Mixtecs, but that is a different problem). The Mexicans who came here were lucky to have a 4th grade education, they were not doctors and upper/middle-class people fleeing political oppression. Everything they have achieved was gained HERE, they have really intended to improve themselves and their lives and that is the epitome of the American Dream. In doing that, they have also improved the lives of uncounted millions of Mexicans, who are enjoying the benefits back home and adding to the economy there. Yes, California will ultimately benefit, but we still have hanging over our heads the FACT that the number of people in the state has doubled in the last 25-30 years. Right now we simply can't take care of them, and THAT problem is getting worse instead of better. Everybody suffers as a result. That is why I believe we have to seal our borders and control entry to this country, and screw all the conspicuous consumers who think they need maids and gardeners and below-minimum-wage janitors at Walmart. It's not racism to say "this has got to stop now", we don't need 10 million more Norwegians any more than we can absorb 10 million more Mexicans.

This is not what France is facing, however. One of the few things Reagan said that I agreed with was when he told the story about how a person from ANY country - no matter what color, religion, or background - could BE an American. We are an entire nation of immigrants, it is our strength and not our weakness. But Reagan said you can't go to Italy and become an Italian or to France and become French the same way. The problem in France is so painful because they are facing a crisis of their national identity if the Muslim immigration continues unchecked. They can't be "absorbed", and that is what keeps them second-class or worse there. It's not a matter of "there is no more room for you", it's a lot deeper rejection than that. That is why the resentment is boiling over and why the reaction to it is so violent. It's going to be very difficult for them to resolve this. It's not a matter of passing a few civil rights laws to make the minorities happy anymore.

Yeah !

Finally De Villepin decides to restore financial support to SOME associations in suburbs (those which deal with education and housing help). It was suppressed or reduced these last years despite they guarantee important social links.

Nothing in order to finance again “emploi jeunes”, former little jobs, now suppressed, which were helping a lot of associations.

He also wants to increase scholarships, and to allow apprenticeship since fourteen years old for children with great school difficulties (it was already possible before and reduced to 16).

It’s fantastic : suddenly they find solutions ! Why did they do the opposite before ? Hoping we’ll see these promises.

But :

Now a law will allow our prefects to order curfews in every French territory which need that. It wasn't even decided in may 1968.................

Problem (never solved before or created) - > Solution (police control) - > lost of freedom allowed.

Caption : youngsters : the state is a mother for you

A lot of "Muslim immigration" have already been "absorbed" in France before unemployment problems. And you could have difficulties to distinguish them among native French people. Most of young "Muslim" 2nd generation immigrants don't care about their religion. They want to work, have French way of life, even drink Coca Cola. Girls coming from North African immigration are dressed like Britney Spears despite medias show 2 girls per year wearing a tchador.
France is proud to be a non-religious state that can merge different cultures.

But you're right, the problem will increase because more and more African rather risk their life in order to come in Europe (Italy, Spain, France, Germany, England) than starving in their own country.
It's a result of our former and actual selfishness, when Occidental countries exploit their colonies, keeping dictators in power in order to exploit their natural resources instead of helping these countries to develop themselves in respecting their own culture.

Endorsed above is a fundamental that promotes racism in nations. Any nation that cannot absorb immigrants is doomed to decay and racist citizens. That is history that also demonstrated this trend: the most productive members of a population are its third generation immigrants.

What Tonchi is saying is that some European nations must die off because they cannot do what America did. Italy, for example, is a nation seriously short of productive workers. Immigrants are desperately needed and should so easily become Italians. To say, for one minute, that only this type of person is Italian and that others must conform to this image; that's racist. My friend has Korean daughters - who speak with southern belle accents. Clearly they cannot be southern. Just look at the eyes. Clearly they cannot be southern American belles. Just look at the eyes. And yet that is what American is. What was typically American yesterday must not be the typical American of tomorrow. American means not being what was previously a typical American. Italian means not being what the typical Italian was 20 years ago. It is why productive nations - and their populations - change with the times.

I disagree with Tonchi's comment about Miami. What he said is not even what the historical summaries document. Yes- the Mariel boatlift did include many hard core criminals. But it also included many times more productive people who were criminals only according to Castro politics.

Somehow Tonchi assumes only professionals - ie doctors - can be productive. Miami found among the Mariel boat people a massive number of productive Americans. That is history by looking at everyone - not just the scum people that Tonchi knew. Mariel boat refugees were not made productive because of police enforcement. They were productive because they were Cubans - humans who would start all over again from scratch to become employed and productive residents. They wanted what most people in the world want. Apparently the most important statement about immigrants was misunderstood. A nation's most productive people are its third generation immigrants. Same for Miami immigrants, as for CA immigrants, and as for French immigrants. Unfortunately too many only complain about today - the classic MBA response - without considering long term consequences. Long term consequences are only what we should be looking at. What would be the source of another wave of CA prosperity? All those plantation workers whose offspring will be raised on those same principles of hard work, temperance, freedom, responsibility, and the 'American dream' are, historically, the best source of a productive America.

Again, what is the greatest source of a nation's success? Its third generation immigrants. Time to stop complaining about them. Time to start dealing productively with them.

If Tonchi has a problem with too many immigrants, then why did I not see a single post from him about the mental midget president who maintain agricultural subsidies (a screw the world attitude), protect anti-American industries such as steel, corporate welfare, etc - all so that illegal immigrants must come to America for those jobs?

Perfect example of a hypocrite would be one who complains about illegal immigration and yet does not immediate start complaining why so many immigrants must come here. Where is that complaint against US government subsidies - corporate welfare - to US Sugar and other industries who need those illegals? If a problem exists, that is where the complaints should start.

Two countries that will not come to grips with the reasons for illegal immigration - US and France - are THE two countries also accused of perverting the Doha round of the WTO trade talks. Of course, if you have a responsible viewpoint on illegal immigration, then you know specifically of the premature breakup of those Doha round talks recently in Mexico. A breakup directly traceable to France and the George Jr "we know better than everyone else" attitude.

Meanwhile the mass flow of immigrants in CA and Miami will be and are examples of what has made America (and other nations) great. This even demonstrated by the Roman Empire. Those who have a problem with immigration should be attacking incumbent politicians tomorrow for creating the problem by perverting globalisation.



BTW, if you don't know who to vote for tomorrow, then vote against the incumbent. Otherwise the incumbents have a history of becoming corrupt faster.

My cousins husband(doctor) had a clinic in Ft Lauderdale. They treated a lot of children and would run hundreds through at back to school time. Most of the patients were expat cubans.
I asked him if he had a lot of people handling all the paperwork for insurance, welfare and state aid? He said 96 or 97% paid cash. :biggrinba

I do not ENDORSE any such principle. I made an observation about the most fundamental difference between the USA and the European nations.

No, I didn't say Italy or any other nation MUST DIE OFF for that or any other reason. Italy has not been prosperous for a very long time, but I know nothing about their economy. I do know that they are constantly kicking out boatloads of Albanians, so they must not "need" the laborers as much as you believe they do.

I stand by my assertion that the FOUNDATION for the Cuban reshaping of Miami was already in place before the Marielitos got there. Castro did NOT ship his political prisoners (criminals only according to Castro politics). Castro's motive was to harrass and overburden the US with the flotsam and garbage of Cuba, he literally ordered the emptying of the prisons and mental institutions, and only permitted boats to leave during that amnesty period if he filled them FIRST with people who the soldiers brought to the docks. I read the account of one captain that he had to go and return THREE TIMES with such cargo until he was permitted to leave with his family. What was the percentage of "honest" or "worthwhile" people who left as opposed to the scum? I have no idea. What I do know, from first-hand accounts by my Cuban friends, is that by the time of Mariel (which is the name of a port which all the boats were required to embark from) any Cubans with money or connections or abilities had already made it out if they wanted to. Those who remained behind were mostly family members and friends of people in the first wave. My friend Rolando still got tears in his eyes while telling how his father had taken them all the way to the boat which was smuggling him and his sister to Florida when Castro first came into power, and then refused to leave with them. Some people just could not make the wrenching change, they stayed, but most family members were desperate to join the others in Florida. Castro held those people hostage, even though the bribes were paid, until he could ship the bottom of the barrel off with them. A lot of money was extorted from earlier refugees in order to have their families together again and Castro wiped out the prison population and other inconvenient and destitute people in the bargain. Not bad for a few month's work. Hope the history books you read made that clear.

I did not assume any such thing. See my comments above. I said that the cream of Cuba rose again to be the cream of the USA. The same thing applied to the educated and highly talented Jews who fled Europe when the Nazi cloud loomed on the horizon. You should not make the assumption that more bodies create more productivity, because they don't. A lot of "shaking out" had to take place after Uncle Sam clamped the lid on Mariel finally. I unfortunately know TWO girls who behave like gutter trash, they happen to be Cuban and brag about how they came over as children from Mariel. They appear to be unfortunately true to the stereotype. But even so, the true story lies in the fact that many decent people, motivated and eager, made here to join their families and had a strong helping hand to integrate them into the American lifestyle and economy. That is why they were productive. They were not "alone".


You haven't been reading my posts, I see. I've been too busy posting about the mental midget president who is destroying our prestige throughout the entire world, erasing our Constitutional rights, and sending our unequipped and outnumbered young men to be slaughtered like sheep far from home. THEN I will get to work on the problems with Big Agriculture and the Bracero economy. Gimme time ;)

Totally agree with you. But are you prepared to live packed like sardines with the other billion people around the world who think that if they can just get across the US border everything will be better from then on? I loved "Blade Runner, the Movie", I will not love the reality if it arrives in California within my lifetime. But we can discuss that later, I believe we agree in most of the basics and can have a fine time with this topic since we are fellow Kalifornians

Oooo, no. Don't think so. Rome is a completely different situation. Rome made the peoples of their conquered territories CITIZENS OF ROME so that they would have a stake in the administration of their countries without having massive troop contingents stationed everywhere to keep order when they were needed to move onward into new fields of conquest. They would have been stretched impossibly thin, you see. Now THAT sounds familiar, doesn't it? By your logic, perhaps we should have made all the IRAQIS citizens of the United States :lol:


I'm also voting against all of Ahnuld's phony propositions. He has collected enough money from special interests by now to have balanced the State budget if it had been applied to the treasury instead of withdrawing another $10 Million to run his "special election". Talk about "business as usual" :mad:

Italy has been a very productive and prosperous country. Why is it part of the G-7? Because Italy is prosperous. Italy's growth rate is about 2.8% - quite good. But Italy has fallen slightly on the competitiveness scale. Of the 25 EU nations, Britain, France, Germany, Netherlands, and the Scandinavian countries are higher. And this is one of Italy's serious problems. Northern Italy needs workers desperately. They have illegal immigration problems like Germany, France, the US, etc. But when your news becomes abridged, then one would assume only Albanians are their illegal immigrants. Albanians are only a part of Italy’s immigrants.

Italy, just like the US, needs those illegal immigrants and probably more. But when political extremists hype their fears, then suddenly a rare criminal immigrant becomes the example of all illegal immigrants.

The US also needs those immigrants. Those immigrants need jobs that politics subsidizes to keep in the US. Yes, many Mexicans send money home. And they would prefer to do those jobs back home. So why is US Sugar, et al not moving to Mexico? Your government pays for 50% of your sugar so that US Sugar will not make jobs where jobs are most needed. Classic pork and corruption - sometimes called corporate welfare.

There is no way around that fact. We need those illegal immigrants. Extremist politics hypes myths such as illegals who would bankrupt the Social Security fund. Ironically, illegals make that fund even wealthier and more stable as previously and accurately posted by others - was it Rich Levy?

Any rate, a country that expects its immigrants to conform to the standards of the host is racist. Immigration means immigrants are assimilated by the host country AND the country changes to be assimilated by its immigrants. Anything less contributes to racism.

The only problem we have with illegal immigration is that WE will not address this reason for its problem. We even increase the price of steel 400% just to protect companies too anti-American to stay in America. That George Jr illegal tariff increase. Therein lies but another example of why illegal immigration exists. It’s called 'addressing the problem at its source'. 'Curing symptoms' is what political rhetoric does when it blames the immigrants for wanting jobs.

BTW, what happened to 'cordial' relations that George Jr was going to have with Mexican leaders? George Jr, as a classic MBA, also could not come to grips with this a major reason for illegal immigration. For all his boasts about free trade, George Jr instead has taken anti-free trade and anti-Mexican agendas. He refused to do what Mexico needed to help solve the illegal immigration problems.

Listen to what happens when George Jr meets with Brazilians. It is the George Jr, enemy of globalisation, that may sour those meetings. To appreciate a major reason for illegal immigration - why we so need those people - then understand how both George Jr and France undermined and terminated a Cancun Meeting of the WTO Doha round three days early.

Did you even know about those WTO talks? Did you even know who contentious most of the world becomes with US and French trade restrictions? Why not? How can one have an opinion on illegal immigration and yet not know how anti-globalisations policies by France and the US only aggravate illegal immigration?

It just too financially profitable for many politicians to protect reasons that encourage illegal immigration. Immigrants need the jobs. And we need people to perform those jobs. Politics and 'purchased politicians’ will not even permit those jobs to go where they are needed. So we instead blame the illegals.

How myopic. Exactly what happens when Rush Limbaugh logic is applied. Why do we need them here to do the jobs? Rush spinning must avoid that question. We have a leadership problem - not an illegal immigrant problem.

I have to admit I have not read all of the above.
That said, I think I'm going to surprise most people by saying I think it's time to bring out the French Foreign Legion troops stationed in north africa and send them in to these hellholes with simple orders to detain all rioters, use deadly force if they resist and then promptly deport them and their families all back to wherever they came from without right of appeal and permanently blacklist them from re-entry.

What it comes down to is this, there are some immigrant communities that work, and some that don't. You can tell those that do, they learn the language, open businesses and their kids all speak the native tongue perfectly and often do better than average in school. Example: the indian community in most of the UK or the Vietnamese community in melbourne. Stereotype? Maybe, but overall, it's true.

These days though you seem to have a new class of migrants, I've heard the appropriate term is transmigrants, they're there, they make no effort to integrate, learn the language, culture or vales of where they have moved and resent being there. They are there purely for economic reasons. This has to be dealt with.

The first thing is to wake the fuck up about it. We live in an age where any kind of serious political debate about immigration is stymied very effectively by saying that anyone who has an issue with any kind of immigration is a racist, end of story. If you want to know who is the most racist group in the UK is, I'd start looking more closely at the caribbean/west african community, because sure, there may be some racism left in middle england but if I walked down the street in milton keynes talking about how all the nigger women were were stealing the white men, I'd be lynched yet I've heard exactly that more than once, races reversed, on the public busses in london and much worse. That needs to be address in open, frank, public discussion. The double standard has to go.

Secondly, there needs to be proactive measures to stop large enclaves of single ethnic minorities moving into one area, it creates what are essentially, closed colonies, guaranteeing problems in the future.

Thirdly there needs to be a stop to ridiculous kowtowing to 'multiculturalism'. I love multiculturalism, melbourne, my home town has one of the most amazing multicultural societies in the world but when someone tells me I shouldn't be kissing my girlfriend on the bus because it might offend the two devout muslim women sitting opposite, it's gone too far. It's not about assimilation, it's about integration. If you don't like the value system of the country you've moved to, go home.

Fourthly, once you've kicked the shit out of every rioter that thinks his personal disaffection gives him some kind of god-given right to destroy property and take life it's time to not only break the ghettos up but invest some serious money in them, in the schools, in job creation programs and in culturally-aware policing. Then, maybe, you'd deal with the problem.

This isn't like immigration in the past TW, and you have to face up to that.

jaguar for president :thumb:

The real Jaguar is going to be mad when he finds his account has been broken into and taken for this...!

Indians in UK have really improved its cuisine!! But can you imagine the French embracing such a thing?

I feel kind of dirty.

ur sexc. a/s/l?

Get a couple more years on yah and you'll be an actual conservative.

I still believe in socialized healthcare, social security, income tax brackets, corporate manslaughter & strong environmental laws before you get any ideas.

No, he's a facist fighting, rational progressive!

Unfortunately, Jaguar, you have described immigration of the past AND problems created when the intolerant fear to assimilate or integrate those immigrants. Assimilate and integrate are the same thing when it comes to the bottom line. I see nothing in your post that defines current immigration different from immigration of generations and millenium past. But I do read so many of the same biases that caused immigration problems in generations past. Feel free to post better and specific examples. But somehow we and France must immigrate people as America did in the 1800s and early 1900s. That is the reality of the world.

Clearly those rioters are the only reasons for these problems. Therefore massive strongarming and bullets will solve the problems. Well more police only expanded the outbreaks into cities from Normandy, to the Perennes, to the Med coast, and to the border with Germany. Outbreaks even in Belgium. Clearly we need more force - rather than address why things have been getting this bad for so many decades.

The home country has some standards that need be maintained. One is a common language. Another is that no religion should ever demand political action (outside of basic human rights and religious freedoms). But problems are created - integration / assimilation does not happen - when racist attitudes are problematic especially at the individual level.

Notice comments from Frenchmen literally on the other side of the tracks. They claimed they had no problem with those other people. But where on their side of the tracks were those other people? Racism exists when communities do not share the same streets. Integration and assimilation does not exist when it is only their side of town and our side.

Is that overt racism? No. But Jaguar is talking about overt racism when he claims it does not exist. He also posts as if I was discussing overt racism.

When confronted with specific examples, then we see so many who deny they are racist and yet don't even know any of 'those people'. If your circle of friends does not include those people, then why are you not routinely asking why? Circles that don't include the 'others' are not overtly racist. We just don't associate with them. Is that racist? Yes.

Is it natural to hate everyone who is different? Yes. Of course. It is naturally inbreed in how humans think. Those who don't logically acknowledge that racism naturally exists in everyone and then don't overtly confront that racist tendancy, are therefore passive racists. To not be a racist, one must intentionally cross that divide between 'them and us'. And that applies to both them and us. That is how immigrants assimilate into a nation as a nation assimilates into that new immigrant culture.

Confronting passive racism may even mean hiring a minority that is less qualified because your organization is too myopic; desperately needs multicultural attitudes.

jaguar - do you intentionally cross class and race lines especially when you are not comfortable doing so? If not, then you are part of a racism problem - a passive racist. People that a progressive country with immigrants cannot tolerate.

What has obviously contributed for over a decade into inevitable France wide riots? Passive racism. "We don't have any problem with them." Then are 'they' also shopping in the same stores? Then 'they' are also properly represented (in proportinal numbers) in your employment? At what point do the citizen of France address their own passive racism?

Why is multiculturalism a topic? Passive racism exists in us all if we all don't confront it every day.

I'm sorry, if I don't engage in positive discrimination (which is still, be definition, racial discrimination) rather than say, treating everyone equally I'm a racist? That's almost admirably warped. Thankyou for making my point perfectly - question the situation, you're a racist.

Now personally I can say I do have friends from diverse backgrounds, young black muslims, irish catholics, first/second/third generation algerians, chinese, indians and sri lankans, kenyans, italians, iraqis and others but unless I actively chose not to engage with people on the basis of race your accusations are frankly, insulting. I don't count these people amongst my friends because I think I should, I do it because I interact with people I want to, regardless of colour or creed.

Yes, there probably is some latent, passive racism in plenty of people here but guess what: you have culturally accepted, very overt racism inside minority communities here, I think that's a much bigger problem right now, why don't you? What are you suggesting? That white people (and lets be blunt here, the incumbent majority in europe is white so I'm not going to pussyfoot about it) have an obligation to go out on a limb and somehow try and go out of their way to make friends with communities that often want nothing to do with them or they are to blame when those same minorities start trying to kill their police forces and burn down business? That double standard is half the problem. Who's the passive racist now?

In France right now you're dealing with hardcore criminals who have a stated goal of burning police officers to death before they will stop burning cars and shops, how do you suggest we stop that? Today. Not some long winded social policy that may or may not have an impact in 20 years. Should we just pick a couple of random officers and string them up as a sacrifice on the altar of multiculturalism? I'm sorry, I don't care who people are but they need to obey the law, if they aren't, they need to be bought into line with force if necessary. I don't see people standing up for football hooligan's rights to trash city centers after matches, why should this bunch of thugs get away with it? They're socially disadvantaged? Boo fucking hoo, try engaging with the society you live in, that might be a good start. I listed to an interview with a bunch of them today, most of them didn't seem to want anything except going back to morocco because, and I quote "there are too many jews here, I hate this place". They also said the London Bombings were great. These are not constructive immigrants, why should they be allowed in the country exactly?

As I said and you conveniently ignored, force isn't a long term solution but it is a short term one while you implement a long term one. And as I also stated above and you also conveniently ignored that should revolve around massive investment in culturally-aware policing, education and job creation. If you do give carrot without giving a stick you also reinforce the idea that rioting is a way of getting what you want. I also said that you need to integrate communities to stop creating these closed ghettos, which you then repeated as your own point in more fluffy language.

This is different, if I'm wrong, prove me so but I don't believe immigrants came to America in the same spirit as many immigrants do today. Today they feel forced by economics but dislike where they move to, have no interest in becoming part of that place or interacting with it. That is fundamentally different. It's not all, it's not all in any one group and probably not some in all groups but it's there and it's a very big problem.

Assimilation is not the same as immigration, assimilation means to absorb and make similar, integration is simply intermixing and combining, it's not semantics, it's fundamental to how you handle immigration. I don't think assimilation is the answer, usually both the locals and the newbies mix and learn from each other over time but then the concept of immigrants who actively resist integrating is new to me, i don't know the answer to that.

When waves of immigrants came to the US, mostly they went to where their own kind were. Irish went to the Irish neighborhoods, Italians went to Italian neighborhoods and so on. Even the Swedish, Norwegian and German farmers went to farm areas populated by similar groups. It was often to seek the help of a family member or someone from their village that had come before and might even be sponsoring them.

When they were congregated in their “ghettos” they were often at odds with and sometimes battled, outsiders. Over time, the kids at school or people at workplaces started to get to know each other and become more tolerant but it took a couple generations.

When people started moving out of the old ‘hoods to Levittown (suburbs) things really started to coalesce, probably because they had something in common…….crabgrass. ;)

And therein lies your mistake. You somehow know these people do not want to have anything to do with France? That is absurd and is only a party line from government officials who are part of the problem; not part of the solution. The street interviews say this government line, that apparently Jaguar reiterates, is wrong.

Those are second and third generation immigrants who complain for decades they have been treated as outsiders. Are you now going to tell them to go home if they don't like it? Is that not what those racists in America's deep south would say to 'niggers'? Of course it is. Are you telling these Arab and African immigrants that they should go home if they don't like it? Jaguar. They are home. They were born in France.

BTW, some of what I am saying has only been repeated by member of the French National Football (soccer) team.

What should these marginalized people have done? The situation today is same as its was 10 years ago. Ten years ago, immigrants dealt peacefully with this situation - and you did not even know about the anger and discrimination. Why not? Now you tell them that they are wrong for no longer doing what was not working? Part of the problem here is that Jaguar did not even know how tense things were getting ten years ago. So instead of discussing the problem, Jaguar addresses the symptoms: calls them thugs and criminals. Well if that were true, then the riots would not be in (last count) 254 cities in France and expanding into Belgium. Or most all immigrants must be thugs and criminals. Which is it?

Yes, violence is not a good solution. Yes, desperately needed was a Martin Luther King to lead a peaceful solution. But Dr King's and Ghandhi's are rare people. Therefore what is happening in France is, unfortunately, inevitable. Some racists are defined or exposed by a denial of the why; to complain only about the riots while ignoring the underlying long term cause. If one does not start by dealing with the riots, then yes, a racist attitude is suspect.

Yes when I went through those 1968 riots, suddenly many hereto unknown racist teachers exposed their true feathers. As one specifically told my friend in a private repremand, "Why do you a jew give a damn about those niggers". Until those riots, we would have never known. To this racist teacher, it was only about the violence - not about the reasons for the violence.

Using your definition of assimilation and integration - in nations that have immigrants - both words must define the same thing. Both things must happen simultaneously as if they were the same thing. And that was my point albeit misunderstood. When it comes to immigrants, assimilation and integration must be the same thing even though - as you have demonstrated - the definitons are slightly different.

Argue all you want with contradictions stated above. That only if you want to argue. But to understand the point, then find and understand a condition where assimilation and integration become the same. A concept where immigrants become that 'so productive' part of a nation. A problem that France - and other European nations - must learn.

Yes the violence and rioting are wrong. However it was also inevitable. Like it or not, due to attitudes that the government is has now exposed, the riots were inevitable. Good people are now becoming criminal types for reasons that should have never existed. AND for reasons that other western nations should be looking at within their own borders. France is not an exception in Europe. Hatred of Turks in Austria is also severe. Europe does have pockets of severe immigrant racism - and I am not just talking about the Balkans either.

To talk about the French riots as wrong is to ignore a far bigger and more important problem. Part of it involves a expression called 'passive' racism. An assumption that *they* don't want to associate with others is a typically racist assumption. An assumption that many have and that most don't know about until things like these riots start exposing those biases.

I can tell you from personal experience, it took those 1968 riots for us to see how racist some around us really were. Otherwise we would never have known. You are now seeing same in the responses from some French government officials.

Don't forget, those first and second generation immigrants in the ghetto are not the same people who were the second and third generation - that moved out - maybe into the suburbs. The point was a nation's most productive people tend to be the third generation immigrants. People who are born in that country.

A problem in France: those second and third generation immigrants complain they do not have such opportunities. Complaints so widespread that violence was at least 254 French cities and towns. By numbers, the complaints are too widespread to not be legitimate.

It's not based on the party line it's based on interviews I've heard over the last few days (and quoted above, there's that selective blindness again), posters I've seen, newsletters I've seen and personal experience. I live on the front line of all this, I watch it every goddamn day. If their first allegiance is to Morocco or Jamacia then no, they're not home, by choice.

Firstly, not "most or all" immigrants are rioting. Those that are are criminals. They are breaking the law, shooting at the police, destroying property and killing people. If that is not criminal behaviour I would love you to tell me what is, if it is, I'd love you to tell me why it should be allowed and not stopped the same way it would if it was anyone else. I would also still like you to tell me how you would stop the riots today.

And for the third fucking time, I'll quote myself, I hope the big block overcomes your selective blindness:

Well I thought you were an intelligent person until you started using words only found in the vocabulary of those who never know; who cannot really learn the facts. Apparently your biases rather than facts are the only big block. This made obvious because you must use profanity rather than facts to justify conclusions.

Denial of fact is demonstrated by a sentence that started "And for the third...". If your really knew the facts, then you knew the underlying ‘whys’ and therefore would never need profanity. To post something intelligent and with credibility, then repost using logic - not using words routine from the intellectually challenged.

The right wing "beat the crap out of everyone who does not agree" claims these riots are only due to "scum". The word "scum" is repeatedly quoted by international news sources when they describe certain government officials in denial - the party line.

Those who warned of these underlying problems have warned that institutional discrimination and segregation has long been a problem in France. Many 'passive' racists even insist that immigrants only conform only to French standards. That means not even using English or American words. Such words are not acceptable to French culture. Other cultures are not acceptable to these Frenchman who insist that France should never conform to or embrace other cultures.

Some numbers. The unemployment rates among Africans and Arabs are three times higher than the national average - per BBC. Other sources say the unemployment rates are 4 times higher. Among technical school graduates of African and Arab descent, the unemployment rate is 5 times higher than the national average. But widespread discrimination does not exist? Explain that contradiction?

But again, the myopic would claim all this disorder is only a few criminal types so as to ignore above facts and numbers. Why are numbers so one sided - and yet ignored? Why do those numbers only demonstrate how widespread the 'institutional' and 'passive' discrimination must be? Those numbers are damning. Reasons for two weeks of public violence are consistent with the numbers - that all Frenchman should have long ago understood, confronted, and demanded change. Those unemployment numbers could only exist with widespread discrimination - a symptom of racist attitudes and public disorder.

Look at those numbers. They are damning facts in contradiction to what Jaguar has posted.

When the hell were you last in France? Everyone uses anglicisms.

Now remind me, which part of, and now I quote myself for the fourth fucking time:
do you have a problem with because well fuck me with a rake, that comment of mine seems to suggest strategies for dealing with exactly the problems you're pontificating about.

This 'passive racism' you seem to think is the root of all this is hard to dismantle when you're confronted with open racism from the people involved and don't deny it exists, I have and continue to every day see it and hear it and hear the same from people living in France. Faced with open hostility most people tend to be a little stand-offish. Strange.

Noone is denying there are serious problems, I mean christ this has happened every 10 years or so for a while but the situation is hardly black and white. Particularly with unemployment. In many of these areas there are very few if any businesses, French employment law makes it difficult to hire people and in the same way society works everywhere else, those with contacts and friends inside companies are going to have a leg up in getting in. That isn't racism, that's how people work. As for graduates (although you avoid the term so I'd like a source on that) the problem is always going to be pronounced for the reasons above. Is there some racism involved? Certainly, but there is racism on both sides of the fence and both need to be addressed equally severely, anything less merely breeds more resentment. Take a look at the stuff spewed out by sites like Ligali. If I said half of that stuff, I'd be arrested.

But that isn't going to solve the problem, what is, and what I said before is to try and break up the ghettos, properly educate the kids and create jobs for the young men and women with nothing better to do than turn to crime, a problem that crosses racial boundaries both here and in France, you cannot over-emphasise the economic center to most of this. Only then you'll have a long term solution. What it comes down to is that I've never seen an integrated society with large socioeconomic disparity and I've never seen an unintegrated one with socioeconomic disparity.

How you deal with people who openly and actively hate the country they've moved to though is another question, if they feel like that and are so keen to let it be known it's time to send them back where they came from. I'm sorry, but if people don't want to be here, I don't see why we should keep them, be they violent rioters, terrorists or hate-preaching islamic scholars.


Now, please, finally, answer each of these questions:

Are people who riot, kill people, burn cars and shops and shoot at police criminals or not?

If they are, should they be dealt with the same way as other criminals? If not, why not?

True but the immigrants that came here and settled into their respective "ghettos", had their own economy and created their own opportunities.

But this could be a symptom of something we've seen in this country and discussed recently. Waiting for somebody (government) to come to their aid while sitting on their asses complaining rather than working toward a solution. :confused:

I have to agree with Jag, that people that resort to this kind of mayhem are criminals. No matter what the frustration level is or if they never broke a law before......now they are criminals.

holy crap. never before have i read a post from jag and said "rock the fuck on my righteous brother! " without exception to each and every point. i generally have had deep appreciation for Jag's viewpoint while in complete disagreement - but today 11/11/2005 Jag and I are of one mind. either he will have to slit his throat because he has become a conservative or i'll be sharpening my blade, please let us know which course of action is most appropriate.



PS - i really miss living in the cellar with you all.

tw - i love your consistency man. i just don't agree with you.

Jaguar is saying more than that. Jaguar is saying French rioting is only by criminals. He is saying this violence is not a result of decades of discrimination. He is saying as the French minister is saying - they are all scum. Jaguar is also invited to correct this - how I read his posts.

What did comments from French minister Sarkozy create? It triggered riots all across France when he blamed the victims for discrimination. Suddenly these minorities are “scum” as Jaguar would maintain? How can that be? Suddenly there is a massive increase in criminal types? Nonsense.

Nothing posted says the violence is acceptable. Jaguar either ignores or denies underlying reasons for the riots. But again, quote this sentence to properly respond to my posts. "Nothing posted says the riots are acceptable." To not include that sentence in any reply is to completely misrepresent everything I have posted here.

To say all those rioters are scum or criminals is to say same about vast cross sections of America's own black communities. Are you also saying that massive numbers of America's blacks are also scum? You cannot have a double standard. Did America suffer race riots because blacks were scum - or because of widespread discrimination, lack of jobs, and denial of opportunity?

There is no proper way of addressing French riots without citing its root cause. Posted were damning numbers. Unemployment rates of 3 and 4 times higher among those who, somehow, are not being discriminated against? African and Arab technical graduates have a 5 times higher unemployment rate. Again, posted are damning and not quoted numbers. Does one reply and simply ignore those numbers? Instead these people are scum and criminals? How do you just ignore numbers that suggest nationwide institutionalized racism?

Which is it? Is the root cause criminals and scum? Or is the root cause institutionalized racism? Somehow you instead have me saying that government should come to their aid. You would post what I never said? Stick only to what was posted, without jumping to conclusions or assumptions.

Provided are underlying facts and numbers. Jaguar simply provided his opinions without facts. Do you just ignore those numbers? Which is it? Which one is the root cause? Criminal types, or a nationwide denial of widespread racial discrimination of people born in France? Which is the fundamental problem that has caused all those riots?

maybe i have a terminal misunderstanding of reality, so feel free to point it out.

when i was down on my luck, partly due to choices, partly due to circumstances... my wife was on bedrest for a problem pregnancy, one month i made $600 GROSS income i was already delinquent on my mortgage, had surrendered one of my vehicles, was 30+days late on every single bill, i met with the "hardship coordinator" for the local power company to hear i wasn't eligible for assistance, was laughed out of the public assistance office, and was literally selling blood to pay for groceries... would i have been justified if i had vandalized, looted, or otherwise harmed another citizen, or would i have been a criminal?

i think i would have been a criminal. background is irrelevant. current decisions are within one's control. good bad or ugly we each control our own actions and there is no excuse for harming another individual's person or property, short of open warfare.

Do you have some kind in intellectual disability?
No, I'm serious. How can you get the semantics of what I've posted so badly wrong?
Which part of the following series of statements is incorrect?
Burning cars is a crime.
Burning shops is a crime.
Shooting at police is a crime.
Committing a crime makes you a criminal.
Thus, Rioters are criminals. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Now based on a considerable amount of anecdotal evidence I'd say most of the rioters were well aquatinted with the wrong side of the law before these riots but that's beside the point.

The cause is neither institutionalized racism alone or criminal elements. The cause is a complex mix of socioeconomic and cultural factors which do, unquestionably, and as I've said all the way though, need to be dealt with. That however does not excuse rioting, which is still crime and should be dealt with as it would anyone else. Anything less is racism. Violence is never an acceptable answer.

As for your number, I did reply. Read it. It's not black and white. I'm getting sick of repeating myself. Maybe it seems to goddamn crystal clear over there because, hey, you have no idea what it's like on the ground.

Lastly I have never used the word scum, I never said the root of the riots was not social factors though I debate which and to what degree. If anyone is putting words in people's mouths and jumping to conclusions it's you, you want to quote me, do it properly. And answer my questions.

Here's some examples of me, and I quote, "Ignoring the underlying reasons for the riots"

Part of the reaction is censorship:

No wonder Bargalunan (and many Frenchmen in my experience) believe in conspiracy theories. In France, there really ARE people trying to stop you from learning the truth.

When the French get all their information from blogs, Mr Dassier will lament the loss of the control that he once enforced over the official, politically-incorrect facts. I understand that blogging is really going full force in France. One sees why.

wow.....On the upside, it's not government censorship, it's an ass who thinks he should dictate the news, market forces will eventually remove or reform him and his misguided organization.

jag-I think you are tops. Really, I do; which is why I understand that you care very little for me: that said: Jag--your freak flag is flying. We've all been there:
US=BAD Europe=GOOD.

you support french right wing shit when it appeals to you. You hate americans without even knowing us. Yeah. You'll soon be a force to contend with.

Hey I've got nothing against you, I react to insults from anyone equally. As for Americans, sure, there's plenty I dislike but hardly all by a long shot, plenty of europeans I dislike too. However I fail to find the connection in all that.

maybe i missed something here, but i thought jag was being less of a eurocentric elitist jackass than usual. :stickpoke




:corn:

hey, I did too.