Why do I hate the Bush Administration?
 

PA. GUARDSMEN KILLED IN IRAQ
Five served with Susquehanna County's 109th Infantry

NEW MILFORD, Pa. -- Already reeling from the death of a young soldier last week, several northeastern Pennsylvania communities were dealt a second blow Friday when the Pennsylvania National Guard confirmed that five more soldiers from the region were killed in combat in Iraq...

The five soldiers killed Wednesday were:

* Staff Sgt. Daniel L. Arnold, 27, of Montrose.

* Staff Sgt. George A. Pugliese, 39, of Carbondale.

* Spc. Lee A. Wiegand, 20, of Hallstead.

* Spc. Eric W. Slebodnik, 21, of Greenfield Township .

* Spc. Oliver J. Brown, 19, of Athens...

Guardsman Jason Jemotte of Friendsville, Pa., was burned in a separate incident on Tuesday, said his mother, Rita Gahring.

FU George

Such a waste. :(

I was talking with my friend Lisa whose husband is an E7 in the army with orders for Iraq in October or November. Apparently they don't give the soldiers and their families definite deployment dates, anymore. At some point Lisa's husband will just leave for work and not come home that day because his unit will have been confined to a holding area for x amount of time, waiting to be shipped out.

Apparently this policy was put in place to minimize the ever increasing numbers of soldiers who go AWOL, shoot themselves in the hand or foot, or fabricate psychiatric symptoms when given orders for Iraq. One of the men in Lisa's husband's unit suffers from a medical condition of some sort that causes him to pass out at unexpected moments (no, he's not on drugs). Lisa's husband, himself, has already had two minor heart attacks.

Both men are still scheduled to be deployed in an active combat unit that will be headed straight for Baghdad. The new rules also make it so that a soldier can be stuck in the military for two years or more LONGER than the time he actually enlisted for. For example, if your enlistment is up on October 15, 2005, and your unit has orders to go to Iraq on November 1, 2005 (give or take 3 or 4 crafty months), too bad for you. You will be deployed overseas with your unit in order to maintain the cohesiveness of your company, and you'll stay the full year PLUS whatever vague alloted amount of time after that year is up. Units need to stick together, right?

I'm so glad we have the war in Iraq to keep our minds off the incompetance of FEMA! Thank you Jr.!

mari that is pure and utter bullshit. deployment dates shift around a lot, but they don't just mysteriously confine them and ship them out. propaganda is good though, thanks.

Hey, Lookout! Lisa has no reason to lie to me. You are in the reserves, Lisa's husband is in the regular army. That makes a big difference! Plus, aren't you Air Force?

We used to have this guy on the Cellar, and he was here for a very long time, and after a while we noticed that every time he spoke authoritatively about just about ANY topic, he was completely and totally WRONG.

Practically any fact, any tidbit of passed-along knowledge, was simply INCORRECT. And it became a game with folks who knew what the story was; behind his back we would mention how wrong he consistently was, and we would take notice of it with every new post containing allegedly factual information.

He was a nice guy, and I agreed with many of his opinions. But for some reason he always had to spout a big steaming pile of false into every thread.

Mari,

Point us to one news story with someone purposefully shooting themselves in the hand or foot to avoid going to Iraq. Post a link to a story which explains the new deployment.

Don't just post a snarky reply. That is easy to do, but accomplishes nothing. Instead, for once, post some external proof that what you have said is correct. Not just the name of some person who would not lie to you. I want to see a story in a reputable newspaper that backs up your information on deployment. This is the Internet, and you should be able to find such a thing. It would be a pretty big story in military towns, so some decent Googling should locate something.

And then you can tell us -- please, do tell us -- which regular army takes narcoleptics and people with major heart conditions. And provide some proof of that too.

Well, I found articles about suicides during deployment, but nothing about self-inflicted wounds before deployment.

Here is an interesting article on PTSD from 'Iraqi Freedom'.

Bottom line, the next POTUS will have to either budget for a lot of PTSD support or quietly screw over another generation of veterans.

.

I keep seeing clips on the news of deployments where the families, media and various politicos gather for a ceremony when they ship out. They are probably reserves though. :confused:

If I tell you the truth, that the Army represses such stories and that servicemen who tell tales out of school face repercussions from their superiors and the fellow members of their own units, you will accuse me of making up liberal lies or evading the question.

Needless to say the army does not recruit older men with health problems. However, a man who makes a military career of it and stays in for 20 years, may indeed develop a health problem. This is the case with Lisa's husband and the other man in his outfit she described. They are both senior NCO's.

I am going to give you something better than a news story. I am going to give you the word straight from the keyboards of active duty members of the army. The following quotes are from a discussion group that I occasionally drop in to read, sponsored by the Army Times. If you click on the link I give, you will see that not every poster was in agreement. The split was maybe 50/50. You asked to see the information to back up what Lisa told me. Here it is. The question was "Has today's Army gone soft?"


the new Army relies on technology rather than guts,disapline, and motivation. Which i believe is the reason there are so many troops going AWOL, deserting and committing suicide.

i am a section sergeant and i can tell the difference between the old army and new. this is pathetic that we allow any and everbody into our corp but we can't discipline them. i was told that dropping a soldier would get me a letter of reprimend or cursing at a soldier with a simple word as A-- i dont get it. these are the same soldiers that come drunk on duty, live in sickcall and never show up on time but yet and still i have to send them to the board according to the new promtion (350) system so they can corrupt my soldiers. I have been for 10 years and at this rate i wont make it to 20. we are taking undisciplined kids to war to turn on us or be killed because of laziness or the i dont care attitude. we need our old army back full force.

ok. What is a good soldier, no matter what branch? Someone who is discplined, in good physical shape, who can lead as well as follow, knows his MOS inside out but is willing to learn more? What is the point? Give the armed forces back to the NCO. Someone who is well trained is a reflection of the training unit and the soldier himself. Stress cards? My God, what is it coming to. I remember when the Pentagon used to change policy so often, you had to keep your head in the reg books in order to keep up with them. Teamwork, professionalism, respect, honor is what I had experienced in the service. When did that change or has it?

I agree go back to the old Army,and tell the politicans to back off!

okay, so now you can't do anything to discipline. You might upset the soldier. I was old army and it was rough but it needed to be. If you went to war you were prepared for any situation, but now, I have doubts. A portion of the people joining are just doing it for money or education. They don't think about what they are actually doing. I say go back to the old ways!


I THINK YOU ARE 100% RIGHT ON THAT. THIS NEW ARMY HAS STRESS CARDS ? FOR WHAT. THEY NEED TO GO BACK TO WHEN THE Sr DRILL and DS were in charge FOR EVERYTHING.

I agree that the Army has gotten soft! I went through basic in 92 we got dropped anytime a drill sergeant felt like it. I spent 4yrs Active duty and 7yrs Reserve/Natl Guard. As I was getting out of Active Duty they were just introducing the "Stress Card" at Fort Benning. I am also a spouse to a Active Duty soldier who has been in 16 1/2 yrs and we are currently at Fort Knox. And believe me if you have read about what is going on here in the Army Times I can tell you that I personally would be telling those parents of the three soldiers that accused the Drill Sergeants of mis conduct that their sons WILL NOT make it in the Army. In fact if they ever get deployed they probably wouldn't make it back alive. They do NOT have the toughness, the independence or the will to work as a team player and if ever captured or fired upon they probably would cry to Mommy! I feel sorry for the soldiers that may one day be in a unit with these three privates that have no business being in the United States Army. I believe Basic Training is to weed out the ones that won't make it in the Army. But now they seem to be taking every Tom, Dick and Harry since all the good ones seem to not have any incentive to stay in past their ETS. I feel we need to give these great soldiers that put their lives on the line something worth staying in the military for. But of course this is just my opinion.

Growing up on military bases worldwide, I saw many different 'things.' One thing I constantly saw was my father working before dawn until well after dark. The 'new' Army still has the same basic concept in many aspects, ie kickin @$$ and taking names. What has simply changed are the times. Today's kids who join come from more broken homes and more unstable enviroments than any of us ever did. I am not asking for pity or for sympathy for these guys, for I show no discretion when dealing with them.
What I am getting at is that the Army has become more concerned with the overall well-being of soldiers on a day to day basis. Is that such a bad thing? It can be, depending on the individual. You always have had those who verge on the brink of malingering everytime you have to go to the field or NTC. There are also those who everytime you wish to correct and assign extra trainin/duty to, want to look up the reg's and file EO or whatever. It just seems like there are more of those soldiers out there today and that the Army listens to more and more of them. Back when my father was a Drill and before he retired as a First Sergeant, soldiers dared not even hint that they would NOT follow through with the extra duty or disrespect him or his other NCO's. Today's Army is too laid back at times

I PERSONALLY THINK THAT WE HAVE GOTTEN TO SOFT AS FAR AS DISCIPLINE IS CONCERNED. WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE BASICS.
TO MANY NEW SOLDIERS ARE GRADUATING BASIC TRAINING NOT PREPARED FOR THE REGULAR ARMY. THEY ARE UNDISCIPLINED AND NOT IN GOOD ENOUGH PHYSICAL SHAPE TO PASS A PT TEST.
WE SHOULD GO BACK TO THE DAYS WHEN NCO'S HAD CONTROL.

That's 12 paragraphs of cut and paste, and nothing to do with deployment, nothing to do with anyone shooting themselves in the foot (except for you).

The military can't hide a shot hand or foot. The military can't hide these kinds of deployment changes. The Army isn't deploying a narcoleptic to active combat duty. You're full of crap.

They can't? Noone has gone AWOL? It wasn't on the news, so does that mean 0% AWOL? Obviously, some troops are not going to combat. Where the reasons for keeping them for going are, I don't know, but it doesn't have to be posted on the Internet.

Maybe if it was introduced to some Congressional committee there is a record, but I haven't found any figures, which mean that Mari's statement has not been proven or disproven.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, UT. :rolleyes:

Here's what I did. I joined the Army Times Forum (feeling pretty stupid since I'm not in the military), and I asked all those battle scarred veterans to please forgive me my ignorance, but could they please clarify current deployment procedures for me and the reasons for them. If anybody over there actually deigns to reply to me, I will post their responses here - NO MATTER IF THE REPLIES SUPPORT WHAT I POSTED OR NOT. I, too, am curious and am awaiting enlightenment.

PS What do you think the old Sarge who made the comment "there are so many troops going AWOL, deserting and committing suicide" was talking about? Men ordered to do KP? :eyebrow:

if they have a serious diagnosed medical problem, they not worldwide deployable. unfortunately, some people won't allow for proper diagnosis or misrepresent the extent of their issues because they know that if they aren't deployable they are going to have to A) retire, B) separate. if you can't do the job you shouldn't be there to collect the pay. if you are staying in and ignoring severe medical conditions you are putting yourself and fellow soldiers in danger. end of story.

and i work in joint ops mari.

Thanks, Lookout. I couldn't exactly remember what you did. What Lisa says is that Army doctors have diagnosed her husband's heart problem. He had a mild heart attack a couple of years back which was treated at a military hospital. He's not attempting to hide anything about his health. He still has orders to deploy with a combat unit for Iraq.

PS. Hey! How's Little Lookout? Is he doing better, I hope?

In the "for what its worth" department, since UT mentioned checked the local Colorado Springs papers, I did and found the following:

TROOP NEWS

Military Stress Officer Says Not Suicides, Just US Soldiers “Dying’ To Go Home”

23 October 2003. Al Jazeera

US soldiers who have committed suicide in Iraq were mostly just desperate to return home, and may only have meant to injure themselves.

At least 13 soldiers have committed suicide in Iraq, representing more than 10% of non-combat deaths. More case are being probed, say officials in Washington.

A military combat stress officer Captain Justin Cole, who works at a US military base in Saddam Hussein’s home town of Tikrit, on Thursday said that while a majority of soldiers are dealing well with the stress of being away from home, for some it was proving too much.

He said he had personally dealt with two self-inflicted deaths. One soldier shot himself in the leg after being told he could not go home, hitting an artery.

Another, a woman, shot herself in the stomach. He said he thought neither meant to kill themselves.

“I don’t think the issues on hand were combat issues,” he said. “I think they were missing home, very much wanting to go home and as a result did harm to themselves. Unfortunately they did pass away.”

Cole said he knew of one case where a soldier overdosed on medication and was too far from proper medical treatment to recover and that another blew off his jaw but survived.

At the base at Tikrit, on the walls of the recreation centre, cartoons show a character pleading to go home,

Cole said incidents of suicide or self-inflicted injury affected the morale of all the troops.

“There could also be a type of copycat effect, let’s say if the soldier injures himself and gets to go back home, they (other soldiers) could probably, perhaps, want to injure themselves too.”

Soldiers under stress also had to overcome the stigma of going to seek help, he said.

“For the most part it’s not that acceptable (to seek help). I think soldiers are really trained to as we say ‘suck it up and drive on’. But by the time we see them we have serious issues (to deal with), “Cole said.

AND:

Carson Soldier Faces Charge of Cowardice

Common Dreams News Center October 30, 2003, The Gazette (Colorado
Springs, Colorado), by John Diedrich

A soldier with Fort Carson’s 10th Special Forces Group has been charged with cowardice for allegedly refusing to do his duty in Iraq.

Staff Sgt. Georg Porgany, 32, a Special Forces interrogator, is charged with showing “cowardly conduct as a result of fear, in that he refused to perform his duties,” according to his charge sheet.

Instead of help, Porgany said, one of his superiors told him to “get his head out of his ass and get with the program.”

If convicted in a court-martial, the soldier faces prison time and a dishonorable discharge. He was charged Oct. 14. His first court appearance is Nov. 7 at Fort Carson.

A cowardice charge is extremely rare, military law experts say. Army officials couldn’t say Wednesday the last time it had been filed. Porgany said he is wrongly charged.

The soldier said he experienced a “panic attack” after seeing the mangled body of an Iraqi man and told his superior he was heading for a “nervous breakdown.”

After that, Porgany said he didn’t request to go on missions nor did the unit ask him to go.

Porgany said he asked for help but was denied the care soldiers with “combat stress” are supposed to receive.

An Army psychologist in Iraq said Porgany had a normal reaction to seeing the body and recommended rest and then a return to duty, the soldier said.

Instead, his commander ordered him back to Colorado Springs to face a court-martial for “misbehavior before the enemy.”

“I don’t know how asking for help qualifies as misbehavior,” Porgany said. “Something happens, you ask for help and they throw the book at you and kick you to the curb.”

Army officials declined to talk about the case.

Porgany, an intelligence soldier with the group for two years, left for Iraq on Sept. 26 from Fort Carson. He is not a Green Beret but was attached to a team of Green Berets for this mission.

The unit was working on Sept. 29 out of Samarra, north of Baghdad, when Porgany saw the body of an Iraqi man brought into the Army compound.

Soldiers on a Bradley Fighting Vehicle killed the Iraqi after he was spotted shooting a rocket-propelled grenade, Porgany said.

Porgany had never seen anything like that. Shortly after, he said, he began shaking, couldn’t focus and kept throwing up his food. Porgany said he was terrified he would be killed.

“Until you are faced with the chance you could die in two minutes, that an RPG could come through the window when you are sleeping, you don’t know how you will react,” he said.

Porgany said he told his team sergeant, a superior, that he was headed for a “nervous breakdown.”

The sergeant told him to “go away and think about what I was saying because I was throwing my career away,” Porgany said.

For the next day, Porgany said he was repeatedly told he had “one more chance to redeem himself.”

Superiors began threatening court-martial, he said.

His superiors labeled him a suicide risk, Porgany said. The soldier said he never thought of suicide and wasn’t a risk.

On Oct. 1, Porgany was sent to another base, where the 10th Special Forces Group’s higher headquarters is located.

While on that base, Porgany said he asked to talk to a chaplain, who suggested he go to a Combat Stress Management Team. He said he referred himself in for care.

He was examined by psychologist Capt. Marc Houck, who wrote in a report that “the soldier reported signs and symptoms consistent with those of a normal combat stress reaction.”

He recommended Porgany rest for a day or so and receive stress-coping skills.

Houck recommended that remaining with his unit would help Porgany’s recovery.

Those steps are typical for a soldier who experiences combat stress, said Col. Rene Robichaux, chief of the Department of Social Work at Brook Army Medical Center in Texas, who wasn’t speaking specifically about Porgany’s case.

Army psychologists are trained to let soldiers know their reactions are normal, Robichaux said.

“It is appropriate to say, ‘This is crazy over here.’ What you are doing and everyone else is doing is bizarre. Being scared is not only normal, it is life-saving. If you are not scared, there is something wrong.’”

Porgany said he returned to the 10th Group after he was examined, was ignored for more than a day and then told he was being sent home to face charges.

The soldier said he had asked three times to stay in Iraq and work through his problem.

Back in Colorado Springs, Porgany said he was ordered to see a psychologist at Fort Carson, again as a suicide risk.

The psychologist wrote that Porgany was not a suicide risk and should be returned to duty without any change.

Porgany said his security clearance has been pulled, and he is forbidden to have a gun.

Porgany questioned what might happen if troubled soldiers are afraid to come forward, noting the three soldiers who were accused of killing their wives last year after coming home from in Afghanistan.

“What is tragic is the message they are sending,” Porgany said. ”In retrospect, maybe I shouldn’t have said anything, but that is the wrong answer.”

Copyright 2003 The Gazette, Colorado Springs, CO

The expected suicide rate is about 11 per 100,000.

my dad was in the navy in the 50s. He and my mom had just been married, and he had taken the bus from Norfolk to Texas to pick her up so they could move to Norfolk together. They had just gotten back into town (on the bus, with everything they owned in 2 suitcases) and had rented an apartment when dad said "I need to check in at the base." Ya know, leave was over, etc. Well, he got to base and his CO told him he was almost late, to get aboard X ship by Xhundred hours, he was going to north Africa for 6 months to 2 years. He had to borrow the change to call the house phone at their new apartment to tell mom he wasn't coming back from checking in.

Talk about no warning. So mom, pregnant by the way, got on a bus bound for home. Dad's ship got 50 miles off the coast and blew an engine, forcing them to scrap the mission and come back to Norfolk. He got back and called bus stations all the way along the route until he found the one my mom was at. Their landlord drove my dad halfway to Texas to pick up my mom.

Happily ever after, etc. etc. But surprise deployments are nothing new.

What a romantic story, Mr. Noodle! No, surprise deployments go with the territory if you are in the military. The part that intrigues me is Lisa's report that they make a surprise round-up of everyone and keep them pretty much confined for what ever length of time in a holding area before shipping them out. Still trying to track down other verification of this. Lisa really doesn't seem like the sort who would lie, though.

Neither did your ax murderer.

Ya gotta point there, Wolf! OUCH! :3_eyes:

But, come on, what are the odds that I meet TWO sociopaths in such a short amount of time? There CAN'T be that many of them out there! can there? :worried:

I was watching some damn dirty hippy rock and roll tv program once upon a time wherein Gregg Allman was talking about his late brother Duane. It seems that Duane's draft notice had come, and so they were getting plastered, trying to think of a way to get him out of it. They put a cast on his leg, thinking that this would get him a 4F, but when they went down to the draft board, they were told he would still be drafted after it healed up.

Undeterred, they went back home, drank more, painted a target on the cast, and Duane then shot himself in the foot through the cast (apparently, he'd been too drunk to hit his casted foot when he tried it the first time, hence the target), which then filled up with blood. They then went back to the draft board. According to Gregg, Duane got the deferment after that...for being insane.

Probably a BS story, but told by Gregg himself.

Insanely talented.

dudes and dudettes--do I really NEED a concrete reason to hate this MF'r? I think not. I've not read your thread, enlightening though it may be, but I do know what I hate. Bush is like porn. You may not be able to define him but you know him when you are ass raped by him.

And it was an Ohio orgasm. ;)

Hate by itself is only an emotion. A massive dislike for a politican should be based in facts. Those facts are even provided by a conservative international publication - because George Jr continues to act as was obvious 4+ years ago. Add facts to that hate - and justifiable hate is based upon logical reasoning.
85% of All Problems ...

BTW pictures are attached to those facts:

As promised, here are the results I got from posting the question on The Army Times board (isn't it cute how they put a new user in "basic training"?) The guys didn't even bother to respond which for some reason does not surprise me. I did get a couple of replies from Army wives:

Marichiko
Basic Training
Posted Sun 02 October 2005 15:31

I still live near Ft. Carson and one of my friend's husband is an E7 with orders for Iraq. Now here's what I don't understand. She says the time of his deployment is pretty vague - he could go this month or next. She says that after a certain date the guys are ordered to have all their stuff, turned in (personal belongings, etc) ready to be shipped over to Iraq. Then she says any time after that date, he could go into work and without warning be placed in a holding area with the rest of his outfit and he won't be able to leave the holding area until they are actually shipped out. She says the Army now does this because otherwise some guys will just go AWOL or pretend to be nut cases or shoot themselves in the hand to avoid deployment.

Well, that's not how it worked all those years ago when my Dad had orders for 'Nam. So is that really how troops are deployed these days or is my friend exagerating? I don't want her to think I'm questioning her word, but...

Sorry if this is a stupid question and thanks for your patience.


melrumschlag
Basic Training
Posted Sun 02 October 2005 17:03
We're at Carson as well, and my husband left in March. They were given a time frame of when they would be leaving, but it constantly changed. When he got home one Thursday, he said they'd most likely be leaving that following Monday, but they'd get 36-48 hrs notice, sure enough Friday they got that "offical" call to be at the troop at X hrs ready to leave.

Does that answer your question?


Marichiko
Basic Training
Posted Sun 02 October 2005 22:57
Thank you! Partly. I was curious about the info that troops were suddenly swooped up into holding areas predeployment for fear of a rash of awols or self-inflicted injuries otherwise.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sun 07 August 2005

melrumschlag
Basic Training
Posted Mon 03 October 2005 05:07
I suppose it could be possible, but in all honesty when my husband left both times they didn't do anything like that.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Tue 27 September 2005

Marichiko
Basic Training
Posted Mon 03 October 2005 09:21
Well, yeah. That's what I really wondered about. I guess I can see people going AWOL from basic or something because they discover they got in over their heads, but it seems to me that by time a soldier is ready to be deployed overseas, he's not going to pull something like that. After all, you go into the military to serve your country and it hardly should come as a big shock if you are called on to fight in a war.


orchidj5
"Cowboy Thunder"

Posted Mon 03 October 2005 12:00

my husband also deployed from carson but our circumstances are a bit different-he's wyoming gaurd-im a civilian contractor on post-they were allowed to see family members for the last time on a sunday evening-could stay off post with them if they wanted-but then had to return on monday and were "locked down"-not allowed off post and limited communications for about 48 hours before they left-it wasnt to prevent injuries or AWOLS but to encourage the families to go back to Wyoming-or in my case home to Denver-so we wouldnt be hanging around waiting til they were told it was time to go-kinda stupid the way they treat reservists vs active duty on that count

Thanks Mar.

You are welcome. ;)

OH LET ME COUNT THE WAYS!

The magazine cover jogged my memory of a conversation I had with my father in law on the way back from the Chiefs game on Sunday. He is a staunch Christian and a classic Republican, but even *he* was complaining about how the current administration has allowed itself to be co-opted by the Right, be they Christian or other special interests.

I would have bet my left nut that he was totally cool with Dubya and company, so it was quite the awakening when I found out that he is as leery of their pandering as I am.

Here's an interesting Daily Kos diary on what the Miers nomination is doing to Bush's base.

From that link; Horseshit! He will live in luxury and security for the rest of his life. He can't make a grave mistake because he doesn't need them any more. :p

I agree. Some would say that he cares about his legacy, and dissention from his ranks could certainly hurt even his perception of his legacy - becoming a lame duck just one year into his second term - but I'm not sure he even cares about that anymore.

Call me a whacko liberal! Actually, come to think of it, some of you do already, so I may as well post the following:

I have made quite the study of so-called "socialized psychopaths" since my encounter with the ax murderer. It is my firm belief that Jr. is a member of their ranks. I posted this idea of mine before Katrina ever happened, and with the passing of each day, it seems that Jr's actions only lend more credance to my theory.

Watch Jr. answer questions that haven't been scripted for him ahead of time like in the last presidential debates. Those wierd split second pauses were not because Jr. was wired for sound, but rather because he was during a rapid mental inventory of what would be the appropriate human response before making his reply.

The legendary lag times between when Jr. is notified of a situation and when he actually responds to it, is not due to stupidity on his part - at least not the kind of stupidity that most people mean.

"Mr. President, an airliner just flew into the WTC!"

Jr. (thinking to himself): "Yeah, and so? All my money is in Swiss accounts and offshore banks. None of my money laundering people have offices in the WTC, they're all back in Texas. No one that I have any use for or who can't be easily replaced was flying anywhere today, so why are they bothering me about some idiotic plane wreck?" (Goes back to reading children's story)

"Mr. President, the levees just broke in New Orleans!"

Jr. (thinking to himself): Hmmm... I wonder what's on for dinner tonight. I hope that Laura told that idiot chef that I like my steaks medium rare NOT medium! I wonder if he'll fix that wild rice stuff, too? New Orleans, let's see oil refineries, shipping... Hey! Bet oil prices will go up! That ought to make for a nice little unexpected bundle this year! Wonder which account I should hide my profits in? Better give old Dick a call and see what he suggests..."

Mari - having now thought a little bit more about the subject a light bulb has gone off. things that i take for granted as making sense can indeed seem nefarious if you are indeed looking for the devil inside every Bush.

Do you remember the old saying "loose lips sink ships"? maybe the posters? the reality is that we are fighting an intelligent adaptable enemy. they know which US military units are designed for what type of mission. If they know when a specific unit is leaving a specific area they can make plans around that information. what the military has found in recent years is that sometimes the most sensitive info that can assist the enemy is sitting right out in the open. a flurry of phone calls, conversations in a city about the upcoming deployment, mentions of units and departures on bulletin boards...

savvy?

I'm one step ahead of you, Lookout! That's why I didn't really push the issue on the Army Times Board. If I were still connected with a member of the active duty military or on active duty myself, and someone came along asking all kinds of wierd questions about troop deployments, I'd be extremely cautious. Beyond a doubt, not making the times of troop deployments known is a good way of confusing the enemy. Whether it also serves to confuse a significant percentage of soldiers who would rather not go remains an open question. The lock down bit is what really gets me. Both times a million years ago when my Dad got sent to 'Nam, my Mom and I saw his plane off out of Peterson Airfield. I can remember being a little kid and crying buckets of tears and forlornly waving at the departing plane as if my Dad could still see me. The one reservist's wife confirmed that the men really do get put on lock down. What on earth for?

most likely because they are not told for certain where they are going or exactly when until after the lock down period begins.

also, having a bit of time to wind yourself up while you are still in the US is a good idea. if you are still able to see the wife and kids you're mind is still in that mode. once they are separated one can get down to the business at hand.

Lookout, the first part of your reply is the best answer I've heard yet. I have been honestly puzzled by the lockdown thing every since Lisa told me about it, since it is completely foreign to what I experienced with my Dad growing up as an Army brat, lo those many years ago.

Lisa is very vehement about it being done to prevent troops from wriggling out of going over at the last minute. In reading the discussions over at Army Times and considering what you have said, my feeling at this point is that lockdown probably was set up to serve a variety of purposes. It keeps troop movements at least somewhat under wraps and may also serve to keep down pre-deployment attrition in the ranks. How serious a problem this attrition actually is remains an open question in my mind at this point. There seems to be no definitive answer, either way.

Never having served in the military, much less gone into a combat situation, I don't have the faintest idea about the second part of your response. You've been there, so I'll take your word on it.

"Call me a whacko liberal! Actually, come to think of it, some of you do already, so I may as well post the following: "

Ha! You wacko liberal you :PP

Thank God for wacko liberals, and save us from the Right.

It also prevents protesters from gathering at deployments.
In this day and age the troops are home one day and in danger the next day. Having a day or two to put on their war face ( :rar: ), makes sense.

Or, it could be this. Or it could just be snarky.

Okay, he's a psychopath with pre-senile dementia. Need I remind anyone of all those executions he presided over as governor of Texas or how he made fun of that woman on death row who made a plea for clemency?

My other theory is that he's a psychopath who has started secretly drinking again. His complexion has taken on a suspiciously ruddy hue, of late.

By the way, I've been meaning to ask. What's "snarky" exactly?

cheap shot, mean, smart-ass, uncharitable

From Jay Leno of 3 October 2005:
> Well the big rumor is President Bush has started drinking again.
> Do you know what that means? All decisions up to this point ...
> he was sober!

LOL, TW! Now there's a terrifying thought! I think I may just have to go pour myself a drink! :lol:

Make mine a bourbon. Imagine, drinking to George Jr's health. Snarky?

Yes, snarky.

I definitely think the situation calls for fine Kentucky corn likker! Make mine a double snarky! ;)

If we don't have extremists on both ends of the Great Pendulum of Societal Standards, we have no hope of it ever ending up somewhere in the middle.

Actually that pendulum is a clapper. A ding on one end and a dong on the other.....in the middle, blessed silence. :biggrin:

Oh, NO, Bruce! Not THAT! PLEASE!

Anything but the "silent majority"!

AAAAAAAaaccccccCCCCCCCKKKK! :eek:

Here's an (old, I believe) interview of Bush by an Irish reporter, in RealVideo, and a new article by that reporter on the experience.

Cheeky bitch. :lol2:

Obviously, our media is MUCH tamer, as I have seen nothing whatsoever of this interview, despite the reference in the article as to rebroadcasting on CNN. Too bad.

:lol: I immediately begin to drink !

As I believe in conspiracy theories ("The Great Secret" by David Icke, "yellow book n°5"), I think such people like George Junior are brought up to be psychopathes and rule the world in that way.
It's difficult to imagine they could act on purpose.
Where Third Reich failed, our presumed democracies are going to succeed in reducing freedom and strengthen control.

I empty the bottle to forget this delirium ! ;)