I need some help
 

Someone in my office just commented that there are "significantly more wars now than ever before." Is this true? I seem to recall reading tat there are fewer "wars" now...

Got any idea? I can't find any information stating whether or not the number of armed conflicts is increasing or decreasing.

Well, we haven't declared war since WWII, IIRC. As for armed conflicts, I'm not sure.

there are always conflicts, chances are that your co-worker is just more aware of them now.

Kinda what Lookout said. Wars and battles have been going on for all of recorded history. There may have been fewer declared wars (ancient Roman expanions could be considered one giant war against the rest of the planet), but the amount of actual fighting between groups of people all over the world has probably stayed the same. Taking into account the current and ongoing warlord fighting in Africa, guerrillas and rebels in S. America, Islamic fundies in the South Pacific, and the hell-hole that is the Middle East.
:2cents:

If you're talking about army vs. army wars, and not tribal conflicts, regional ethnic cleansings, rebellions, and other smaller scale stuff, there are definitely less, I'd think. The smaller conflicts seem more numerous, but that could be because we have global satellite coverage, and things that might have once gone unnoticed by the public are now far more visible.

Now we have to be concerned with all of them because Urbane Gorilla wants us to play world cop. :crazy:

[flicks Bruce's nose with big black strong gorilla finger, watches nose go boing-boing]

Well, like it or not, seems to me we'll frequently be stuck with it. We don't like having our trade routes screwed with, and large enough conflicts have a way of doing that.

Heaven forbid, Walmart shipments would be delayed by Iran's navy. :eyebrow:

Glad to see that everyone is still agreeable and somewhat playful here. :lol:

I think it's probably more conflicts than ever before, as a result of growing population and dwindling resources, and less tolerance and refinement than before. Contrary to popular belief, our societies aren't changing for the better (languages, culturally, etc).

In addition, I think noodle has it right. We're getting more global news than ever before, so we're hearing more and more about these conflicts. If you were a Briton in the 1400's, you didnt know about the Apache and the Navajo conflicts.

Who's to say that these things, particularly language, were better in previous years?

Language is language and is only good or bad if you're under the influence of prescriptivist grammarians.

Not sure who this is attributable to, "Languages are dialects with an Army and a Navy". I really like that.

Ebonics.

Txtspk.

I rest my case.

Love,

Wolf
Grammar Nazi

You don't have to be a Grammar Nazi to refuse to accept ebonics and txspk. Even I refuse those. When I meet or have to deal with people who talk the "shit" lingo if I don't understand them, I just say: "I totally did not understand anything you said." and leave it to them to attempt English.

Language's function is to convey ideas verbally. If you can't understand someone that you need/want to communicate with then yes that is a "Bad Thing" but it doesn't make the language they speak "Bad" and your language "Superior".

When people cannot communicate and there is sufficient pressure to do so they form a pidgin (they meld their languages until they communicate sufficiently well for the intended purpose). If the members of these two(or more) languages are in contact continually for a generation or more then their offspring will pick up the pidgin and turn it in to a full fledged language.

My point being, simply, that language evolves and standing in the way of this process does nothing but make you appear ignorant. If folks want me to list some sources for my statements here I would be glad to provide you with stacks of references and historical anecdotes.

(Note: this isn't directed at Brianna in particular -- her post made a good jumping off point for my ranting)

Ebonics or African American Vernacular English(AAVE) is as much a language as anything else. AAVE is studied by linguists. It's a dialect of English which itself is a creolisation of languages at several points in recent history.

As far as I know Textspeak is not spoken anywhere in the world. It is an abbreviated form of the written form of spoken languages(primarily english. I've never run into it in any other language.). Textspeak is like !337 just a bastardization of the written form of a language. I'll have to ask around when schools back in session but I don't think there are many linguists that would classify these as languages.

Why be a grammar nazi if you're not writing in a formal setting?

It's a hobby.

:lol2:

Mushmouthese is not a language, it is a symptom of a semi-educated sub-group of society. It is no more african than I am.

And AIDS is studied epidemiologists. What's your point?

Let's not take a nose dive off into the multi-culti pool here.

RE: Ebonics.

The point is, if you speak ebonic be prepared to be discriminated against. If I owned a business and needed someone to answer the phone, I would want someone who spoke English. No "This be Brianna's House of Pleasure. Who you be and who you want?" NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I wouldn't vote for anyone who spoke like that, be friends with anyone who spoke like that, hire anyone who spoke like that or even TAKE SERIOUSLY anyone who spoke like that. Prejudiced white girl? No. I just don't like people who sound like uneducated dolts. That doesn't make me 'stupid'. You can say "he be, she be, we be, they be..." all you want. I'll form my impression of you accordingly.

true dat.

Are you expert or even remotely educated in Linguistics, Cognitive Science/Psychology or anything in that realm? Language shifts all of the time. If your great-grandparents heard the way you speak they would be appalled. Does that make them better than you? Does that make the English you speak the language of a semi-educated sub-group of society?

Let me revise my previous statement that you've taken issue with. AAVE is studied as a language by linguists.

So what? Somebody put a crucifix in a jar of piss once and called it "art."

That makes sense. Who said you shouldn't hire the best person for the job?


That's pretty fucking sad. What would you say if I said the same things about morbidly obese individuals?

Then you proceed to contradict this assertion.

So, someone speaking Ebonics in any situation is an uneducated dolt. Even someone who is highly educated but when they are communicating with their family and friends speaks Ebonics so as to be easily understood and accepted to the in-group?

It seems that your impression is already formed.

I won't be responding to this thread anymore. One thing I've learned is that, along with Politics and Religion, Language is something you don't talk about in polite society.

Quitter.

I just said I won't reply but this isn't really the same thread of discourse.

Yes, you put anything in an artistic context and it is arguably "art". However it is not "Art" as in "Fine Art" e.g. Le bassin aux Nympheas, Les Demoiselles d'Avignon, etc.

someone who feels they need to intentionally mispronounce words and butcher grammar to fit in with those around them may need to rethink the people they allow to surround them.

To the people they are communicating with it's not mispronunciation nor bad grammer it's their group's dialect of English.

But if they claim to be "American" and speak "English" why can't they speak the same American English as the rest of us? I understand regional accents, and regional dialect when certain items exist in one area but not another (e.g. grits), but I don't agree with bastardization of language just to create your own special "dialect".

yes it is. it was an intentional choice to speak in that manner. we are not speaking about a group of immigrants that has entered the US and mixed their primary language and english (spanglish, creole). we are talking about people who chose to speak in a specific manner in order to stand out and mark their "differentness". this isn't a language that survived from the days of the slave trade and grew into what it is today. this way of speaking is highly connected and influenced by the hiphop culture.

AAVE speakers have been isolated from mainstream society for the largest part of the last several hundred years. Their speech has aggregated a lot more things like "grits" than other white southern english speakers. An accent is by definition a dialect, IIRC. They didn't intentionally change their speech patterns to create their own dialect/language.

I'll point to this article again for those that would like a decent short description of how AAVE/Ebonics was formed.

Here is a surprisingly long list of englishes.

Too funny for words.

:lol:

Actually, for that type of business, that could be quite appropriate. Having the phone answered with your slogan by your very own pimp daddy would give you a solid corporate identity.

It is often all in how it's said vs. what is said. I've attended conferences and seen PhDs who were born and raised in Brooklyn. Brilliant men, but they sound like cabbies, so you really have to listen more closely to the message to take them seriously.

Ok. It's a language. It's a language associated with ignorance, lack of education, lack of couth, and lack of class. You want to speak like a stupid hick? Go ahead. You want to speak like a stupid, know-nothing ebonic-speaker? Go ahead. It's a free country. Just don't get upset when I treat you like a moron, don't hire you, or dismiss your opinions as unlearned. PEOPLE MAKE IMPRESSIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE BASED ON A LOT OF THINGS! Speech is one of them. You don't have to like it, but it's there. Pretending like it shouldn't be an issue doesn't keep it from being an issue. You think it's "fucking sad" that I wouldn't associate with an ebonic-speaker? I think it's sad that you would. Vive la difference!

Mine would be a "Maison Derriere"--a nice place with no pimps, just a hooker with a heart of gold.

I think that you have just contradicted yourself.

If your beloved AAVE is language, then piss christ is art, and there is no distinction between fine and foul.

Multiculturalism is teh l337!!!!!!11!!eleven

Actually, I have taken multiple college-level linguistic courses and have studied (although am not yet fluent in) over 5 languages. I also have over 8 college-level courses in Psychology, Educational Psychology, Cognitive Learning, and Cultural Anthropology.

This is true. Language has shifted, and at certain points in history, it has shifted more quickly than others. Usually languages that utilise print as a medium shift more slowly than strictly oral languages. But that does not mean that it is getting *better* as it shifts.

This is also true. Why would they be apalled, do you think?

Does that make them better people? No. Does it mean they were actually using a fuller, better structured and less slang based version of the language? Absolutely.

It means that the verbage, vocabulary and grammar used "nowadays" is less rich, and generally is not "as good" as it was even 50 years ago. Most linguists agree that the English of Shakespeare's time was probably the peak of the language, and especially American English is now in decline.

Serbo-Croatian, however, is actually splitting into two separate languages, Serbian and Croatian. It's rather like British English and American English, only they are independantly becoming more rich, we're seeing additions to the language, instead of bastardizations and laziness inherant in the dialects of American English we are seeing recently.

So overall, yeah, I think it is a reflection of the society in question. :)

From Grants link, confirming Brianna's point about their choice to be different:

edit: It occurs to me that this reflects the whole "African-American as a distinctive cultural subgroup" mindset as opposed to American folks who happen to be black.

Art is creation and expression. It is not essential for everyday life. There are very extensive discussions of art vs. Art. I'm not sufficiently versed in art and art criticism to discuss it thoroughly.

However, art and language are very different things. Artistic merit is usually determined by conformance to a desireable style or audience perception. Language, by definition, shows consistent internal logic and structure. You can observe the speech of a group and then methodologically determine beyond doubt it's status as a language(or not a language), and whether it is a creole or a pidgin. You can classify the observed speech in a heirarchy of other languages. Linguistic analysis is concrete.

Language can also be art. Shakespeare, Chaucer, Alighieri, ad nauseum. Language as art is different to all people and there is very little universal agreement on the true masters. Is Def Poetry art? Are newspaper headlines and clever advertising tag-lines?

Intelligence and education are usually determined by conformity to a desirable style of speaking and the perception the listener has of the speaker.

To answer the two above questions: NO and, NO.

A little experiment for you, grant. Start posting in ebonics. See what happens. Double-dog dare you.

Do you think if they were accepted in to mainstream society they would have a need to subvert the mainstream language? They didn't choose to be brought here, they didn't choose to be marginalized. So it's partly the fault of those who brought them here. And partly the fault of mainstream society for maintaining the pressures that engendered the subversion. Yes, they partly choose to maintain the AAVE language but pretty much everyone tries to maintain their cultural identity which language plays a huge part of.

I classify dialects as legitimate entirely on whether they're adding or taking away. Adding vocabulary and slang is one thing. These are words that don't exist elsewhere, and presumably there wasn't a word that effectively conveyed the same meaning before. But refusing to conjugate verbs is doing nothing but simplifying the language and communicating less information. "He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.

Here'syo' post, Brianna.

The entertaining but trivial argument about what constitutes language an' da entirely different subject o' making value judgments as ta da worthiness o' one language over da other has been amusing ta watch.

Y'all jet on an beat each other up over NOTHING! I'll just sit back here an' laugh at yo' pointless exercise. Ya' dig?

Ok, BigV. Now, was that ebonics or Uncle Remus? Or, both?

Oh, and the challenge is to "start posting"--meaning more than one. So, you'll keep posting like that, right, BigV?

I'm in a group setting once a week. There are all sorts of people in this group. One woman refers to her boyfriend as, "mah niggah." No one says anything about this, probably because the woman is black. I wonder what would happen if I referred to MY boyfriend like that...

And is not necessarily worse.

For the same reason many people are turned off by AAVE. It's different. It calls itself english but isn't the same english. My grandparents say things like, "I can't understand what kids are talking about these days", about what you would probably call mainstream english. Quite a few words have been added to mainstream english in the last 30 years alone. In the last 500 we've only LOST a handful. Many of these words have no equivalent in past dialects of english. Things as simple as Hip, Dig, Honky and Bogus.

Linguistic diversity is now being destroyed because of all of the standardization. We're heading back to another Tower of Babel situation.

Absolutely not. What you call a less slang based language was actually using the slang of THAT day. It goes in cycles. The longer a language is in existence the more rich it becomes. Did you know that most words left in English from Old English(spoken ~5th century to 1066) are 4-5 letters or less. Did all that borrowing of words cause our language to become less expressive and rich?

I suggest you take some Linguistics courses. Courses on the study of language itself not on particular languages. You'll learn that no natural language is structured better than any other language.

See...I'm talking about Descriptive Linguistics not English Pedant Linguistics. Apples and Oranges.

Can you define what differentiates additions and bastardizations and inherent laziness? It all looks like your average everyday language shifts and changes to me.

try something for me, please? read the big bold numbers across the top of your calendar. does your calendar say 1795? 1895? 1995? mine says 2005.

is america perfect? hell no. will it ever be? hell no. are there racists out there? yep. and there always will be. but the vast majority of americans are not going about their day looking for ways to marginalize minorities. unfortunately, when a group of people decides to take on an a behavior for the sole purpose of being different than the mainstream then they are, in effect, marginalizing themselves.

an african being kidnapped, thrown on a ship, and being sold into slavery has absolutely NOTHING to do with the high school sophomore who chooses to say "i be, you be, he be". nothing. to believe that there is a tie between the two is just pointless delusion.

I'm having fun. It's not any more pointless than WoW (I just hit 60 on my first toon).

Why isn't grant posting in ebonics?

My point here is that in the past they WERE pushed to this behavior and they embraced this behavior. Now it's a part of their culture and getting people to speak like you want them to because YOU say so is nearly impossible.

I agree that they are self-marginalizing now. There are many opportunities for anyone in this country as long as they'll fit through societal filters. But despite the best efforts of black leaders the message of being able to achieve and valuing achievement hasn't penetrated the black community very well yet.

The other thing is our perspective in the U.S. is pretty unique on some things. For instance, do you have any idea how many languages and dialects are present in an area the size of the United States in other parts of the world? There are probably as many dialects in natives of Switzerland as there are in the entire U.S. In germanic countries they try and get everyone to learn Hoch-Deutsch so that all germanics can communicate in a common language. This is similar to what we do with Standard American English.

It's not appropriate to the audience for one thing. For the other I don't speak AAVE, although I can understand pretty much all of it I've ever heard.

Ah, yes. We have to be "down" with the "homies" to speak this delicious bit of Americana. I understand. I'm with a group once a week. A lot of them speak...something...I don't know what it is, and I can't understand it. One of the BIG words that is tossed about in this group is "niggah". That one I do understand, in my whitebread manner. It's used in a variety of ways by these folks. One woman refers to her boyfriend as "mah niggah", but she probably gets away with it because she is black.

I'd get shot for 'nigga'. I've run into a group of pretty ghetto kids at school that _hate_ the in-group 'nigga'ing they believe it engenders disrespect so they prefer to use the tried and true 'brotha' which is the same thing without the negative connotations.

The good vibes are starting to get around more and more. Hopefully in a couple hundred years we'll have a few more things ironed out.

You're school friends might be a little more EDUCATED than the people in my particular group. See? Education brings about enlightenment which is then expressed by people having and using BETTER COMMUNICATION. Wow.

"He be going" in AAVE can equal "He is going," "He will go," "He went," "He often goes," and more in standard English, depending on the context.

Prime example. I think the biggest problem for me is when people try to substitute Ebonics for situations when Proper American English is more appropriate - high school ENGLISH essays, etc.

What was that phone number again?
I can't do it. I just can't.

Right, Steve. "Your"---Grammar Nazi! I made a typo--a mistake. Wow. You never do when posting. You'RE a Grammar Nazi. I'll remember that.

And you'll NEVER get the number to Brianna's House of Pleasure, either! Ya wank.

BS. that was the message that was shouted and pounded into skulls throughout the early and mid 1900's - and it worked. black americans valued education, hard work, and perseverence and they achieved what others thought to be unachievable. there was a change in the late '70's through the '90's. instead of work hard and become apart of the american mainstream culture many chose to differentiate themselves and become separate. fine that is there choice, albeit a bad choice. now having bad grammar and runaway mispronunciation is a sign of being a part of something separate from mainstream america and it is valued by the participants. there are consequences to this choice - one being that many will refuse to take you seriously.

imagine how far Martin Luther King, Jr and Malcolm, among others, would have been received if instead of "I have a dream..." we heard "I be dreamin dat my lit'l niggas not be judged on da cola o day skin"

as far as the multiple languages in europe bit... having been there last week i can tell you that there are more than i can count. so what? those each have a historical basis. geography once dictated the language. each area had its own and people didn't travel as we do today. that means that there are many many languages within relatively small geographical areas. there is a historical cause. that is not the case in america. ebonics hasn't been handed down for centuries. it is a relatively new bastardization of english.

You've given an example. I'm not quite sure what you mean with your example, other than different languages are different. I agree that when you're being educated in an SAE system using an alternate language is not appropriate.

A few improved their station, most didn't. New efforts need to be made. I don't want to argue this particular aspect. It's been done to death.

Obviously,so what is your point?

AAVE has a historic basis starting about 500-600 years ago. Where's the lack of historic cause? The reason AAVE is so widespread now is that for the last 200 years people have been pretty mobile. Now with media outlets as pervasive as they are today it spreads even more and has a better chance of sticking around.

It's funny because using bastardization meaning "to debase or corrupt" is a relatively new change in SAE.

Now you're going to come back and say they make a choice to be different. The more I think about this issue the more it becomes apparent that they really don't want to be a part of American mainstream, I've never heard these people beg to be homogenous. Yeah, they complain and fight and grumble about being kept down but, do they really want to be let up? It seems the ones that want up and are willing to work for it have the ability. Let them make their choice, that's the great thing about being human -- there are always choices.

you are saying that most black americans are no better off than their predecessors 50 + years ago. that is just ignorance. enough said.

and the idea that people who are utilizing ebonics don't want to be "let up"... what a load of crap. these are the same people complaining about being held down. you can't be held down if you aren't trying to stand up to begin with.