The Cellar - The British are officially insane...

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The British are officially insane...

This is pretty sad. For the record, I am no fan of the NRA, but this is nuts. From today's NYTimes:

Quote:

British Medical Experts Campaign for Long, Pointy Knife Control
By JOHN SCHWARTZ

Warning: Long, pointy knives may be hazardous to your health.

The authors of an editorial in the latest issue of the British Medical Journal have called for knife reform. The editorial, "Reducing knife crime: We need to ban the sale of long, pointed kitchen knives," notes that the knives are being used to stab people as well as roasts and the odd tin of Spam.

The authors of the essay - Drs. Emma Hern, Will Glazebrook and Mike Beckett of the West Middlesex University Hospital in London - called for laws requiring knife manufacturers to redesign their wares with rounded, blunt tips.

The researchers noted that the rate of violent crime in Britain rose nearly 18 percent from 2003 to 2004, and that in the first two weeks of 2005, 15 killings and 16 nonfatal attacks involved stabbings. In an unusual move for a scholarly work, the researchers cited a January headline from The Daily Express, a London tabloid: "Britain is in the grip of knives terror - third of murder victims are now stabbed to death." Dr. Hern said that "we came up with the idea and tossed it into the pot" to get people talking about crime reduction. "Whether it's a sensible solution to this problem or not, I'm not sure."

In the United States, where people are more likely to debate gun control than knife control, partisans on both sides sounded amused. Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association, asked, "Are they going to have everybody using plastic knives and forks and spoons in their own homes, like they do in airlines?"

Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which supports gun control, joked, "Can sharp stick control be far behind?" He said people in his movement were "envious" of England for having such problems. "In America, we can't even come to an agreement that guns are dangerous and we should make them safer," he said.
[...]

It's a window into the future people. Seriously.

In England you're not even allowed to poke people with a pointed stick in self defense ... they're going to be banning the fresh fruit next. Bananas first. Nasty things, bananas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Nasty things, bananas.

Almost as nasty as pinapples.

The actual medical journal article is much, much scarier than the NYT report.

From the British Medical Journal.

Quote:

BMJ 2005;330:1221-1222 (28 May)
Editorial
Reducing knife crime
We need to ban the sale of long pointed kitchen knives

Violent crime in the United Kingdom is increasing; figures from London show a 17.9% increase from 2003 to 2004, (1) and one easily accessible weapon used in many incidents is the kitchen knife. Unfortunately, no data seem to have been collected to indicate how often kitchen knives are used in stabbings, but our own experience and that of police officers and pathologists we have spoken to indicates that they are used in at least half of all cases. UK government statistics show that 24% of 16 year old boys report carrying knives or other weapons and 19% admitting attacking someone with the intent to harm. (2) Although other weapons—such as baseball bats, screwdrivers, and chains—are also carried, by far the most common weapons are knives. (3) In the United Kingdom in the first two weeks of 2005 alone, 15 murders were attributed to stabbings and 16 other non-fatal attacks. (4)

To tackle this increasing problem, various measures are being considered by the government, particularly targeting the adolescent age group. These include raising the minimum age for purchasing a knife from 16 to 18 years and allowing head teachers the power to search pupils for knives. (5) However, not all crimes are committed with newly purchased knives, and every household and home economics department in schools contains a plethora of readily available weapons. The modern stainless steel kitchen knife has a high quality blade that makes it unnecessary to look further for another lethal weapon.

Most domestic kitchen knives are based on two designs, the dagger variety with a pointed tip—for example, vegetable knife or carving knife—and the blunt round nose variety—for example, bread knife. When using a knife to harm, a blunt nosed knife is unlikely to cause serious injury, as penetrating clothing and skin is difficult with it. Similarly an assault with a knife with a short blade such as a craft knife may cause a dramatic superficial wound but is unlikely to reach deep structures and cause death. A dagger type knife, however, can penetrate deeply. Once resistance from clothing and skin is overcome, little extra force is required to injure vital organs, increasing the chance of a fatality (likened to cutting into a ripe melon). (6)

As knives are so readily available, does a culinary reason exist for so many domestic knives to be of the dagger variety, or are we just sticking to tradition? Knives as we recognise them were made first from copper and bronze between 3000 and 700 bc, and some are very similar in design to those used today. Personal eating knives were first used in Britain in the 14th century and became commonplace during the 1800s when manufacturing processes improved. (7)

Knives were used to spear meat, lifting it from plate to mouth, so pointed tips were vital for this function. Also, with repeated sharpening of a flat blade, a pointed tip inevitably develops. However, now domestic knives do not need sharpening, and numerous other kitchen utensils can be used to spear food. The current practice of eating with forks and blunt ended table knives was introduced in the 18th century to reduce the injuries resulting from arguments in public eating houses. In 1669, King Louis XIV of France noted the association between pointed domestic knives and violence and passed a law demanding that the tips of all table and street knives be ground smooth. (8) Today many households have a block of kitchen knives of which several will be of the long pointed variety.

Perhaps the pointed kitchen knife has a culinary purpose that we have failed to appreciate? We contacted 10 chefs in the UK who are well known from their media activities and chefs working in the kitchens of five leading London restaurants. Some commented that a point is useful in the fine preparation of some meat and vegetables, but that this could be done with a short pointed knife (less than 5 cm in length). None gave a reason why the long pointed knife was essential. Domestic knife manufacturers (Harrison-Fisher Knife Company, England, personal communication, 2005) admit that their designs are based on traditional shapes and could give no functional reason why long pointed knives are needed. The average life of a kitchen knife is estimated to be about 10 years.

Many assaults are impulsive, often triggered by alcohol or misuse of other drugs, and the long pointed kitchen knife is an easily available potentially lethal weapon particularly in the domestic setting. Government action to ban the sale of such knives would drastically reduce their availability over the course of a few years. In addition, such legislation would make it harder to justify carrying such knives and prosecution easier.

The Home Office is looking for ways to reduce knife crime. We suggest that banning the sale of long pointed knives is a sensible and practical measure that would have this effect.

Emma Hern, specialist registrar in emergency medicine, Will Glazebrook, specialist registrar in emergency medicine Mike Beckett, consultant in emergency medicine
West Middlesex University Hospital, London TW7 6AF

References
1. Metropolitan Police Service. Latest crime figures for London. www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/ (accessed 20 Jan 2005).

2. Beinart S, Anderson B, Lee S, Utting D: Youth at risk? A national survey of risk factors, protective factors and problem behaviour among young people in England, Scotland and Wales. London, Communities that Care, 2002, JRF Findings 432.

3. Townsend M, Barnett A. Children of five who carry knives in class. Observer 2003, November 23. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...091441,00.html (accessed 21 Apr 2005)

4. BBC News Online (manual search). http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgibin/s...ws&q=stabbings (accessed 20 Jan 2005).

5. Home Office. Off the streets and out of schools: Home Secretary's fight against knives. Press Release 389/2004. 15 December 2004. www.homeoffice.gov.uk/n_story.asp?item_id=1188 (accessed 30 Mar 2005).

6. Sadler D. Injuries of medico-legal importance. Lecture notes for LLB in Forensic Medicine, University of Dundee. http://www.Dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi...sdws.htm#stabs (accessed 20 Jan 05).

7. The Sheffield cutlery industry. http://freespace.virgin.net/a.data/T...%20Cutlery.htm (accessed 20 Jan 2005).

8. Knives. http://www.eat-online.net/english/ed...ils/knives.htm (accessed 20 Jan 2005).

:stickpoke :stickpoke :stickpoke

Bad boys, bad boys, wat'cha gonna do...

:lol:

Sweet Mary! That's hilarious! The things some people will do to get into the news.
What about point-ed sticks?

I'm totally against banning knives.

Instead, what if they required knives to have large rounded rubber balls on the end, that could easily be removed by typing in a combination prior to using them to chop meat? It would probably also be a good idea to make people wait 15 days before buying a pointy knife, so that they aren't purchased and used in rage. Also, we would clearly want to limit the ability of collectors to purchase rare and antique pointy knifes at auctions and large knife shows, since there's no way to know who that guy dropping $50,000 on an original 1820's Snowden-made Bowie Knife really is.

This things make more sense. But we shouldn't ban pointy knifes, because when pointy knives become illegal, only criminals will have pointy knives.

-sm

I'm in favor of broad licensing and felony checks for awl purchases. Nobody *needs* to buy an awl so quickly, and they are only really used by professionals.

And ice picks. Who really uses an ice pick except criminals anyways?

Ok this is however you look at it, fucking stupid. However.

Quote:

In England you're not even allowed to poke people with a pointed stick in self defense ...

THIS ISN'T FUCKING TRUE WE'VE FUCKING GONE THOUGH THIS ABOUT A FUCKING MONTH AGO. We cannot arbitarily shoot people or carry firearms but you can kill in self defence and home defence as long as you're not over the top about it. End of fucking story. You can do it with legally purchased firearms, knives, golf clubs, cricket bats, outdated loaves of bread, piping, furniture, personal electronic equipment or the prestigious Oxford Dictionary and the only way you'll get in trouble with the law is if you keep going at it once they're down or they're already running away.

There are legally purchasable firearms in England?

Help me out here.

Can you post a link to information about what's available and what you have to go through to get it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

...
cannot arbitarily shoot people or carry firearms but you can kill in self defence and home defence as long as you're not over the top about it
...
You can do it with legally purchased firearms, knives, golf clubs, cricket bats, outdated loaves of bread, piping, furniture, personal electronic equipment or the prestigious Oxford Dictionary

Is it legal to do it with the American Heritage Dictionary? :smashfrea

I don't know the details here but I think if you belong to a club and are over 17 you can own a shotgun, it's very common in the country. Most classes of firearms, anything fully-automatic, semi-auto pistols etcetc are totally illegal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Can you post a link to information about what's available and what you have to go through to get it?

Here. And here's something too.

his is just ludicrous...

Emphasis mine...

DOMESTIC FIREARM LEGISLATION

Licencing Requirements: Anyone acquiring or in possession of a rifle or a shotgun must have a certificate issued by the chief of police in the area in which they live. The police must be satisfied that no good reason exists for refusing the grant of a certificate, and that the applicant is not a person prohibited from possessing firearms. Individuals sentenced to any form of custody for a period of three years or more are prohibited from possessing firearms for life. Those sentenced to three months but less than three years are subject to a five-year prohibition from the time of release. (3)

Any smoothbore barreled firearm with a barrel length of at least 24 inches, and which has no magazine or a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges, and is not a revolver gun and has no barrel with a calibre of more than 2 inches, requires a shotgun certificate. All remaining types of firearms require an Firearms Acquisition Certificate (FAC), though many also require the authority of the Secretary of State. An applicant must show "good reason" for each firearm he or she wishes to possess. Generally accepted reasons include target shooting, pest control, deer-stalking and collecting. Applications for other reasons must generally be supported by evidence of the stated "good reason". Applicants must nominate two referees to support their application. Ammunition must also be authorized by the FAC, and maximum permitted quantities for acquisition and possession are stated on the FAC. A Firearm Certificate is valid for five years. Applicants must be at least 14 years of age to possess firearms or 17 to acquire firearms other than as a gift. There are currently about 171,000 FACs on issue in Great Britain. (3)

Registration Requirements: Every police force has a firearms licensing department whose task is to administer the issue of firearm and shotgun certificates. Information is kept on the identity and addresses of certificate holders, the number and description of firearms (including serial numbers) and shotguns held, quantities of ammunition permitted, and arrangements for keeping firearms and shotguns securely.

Shotgun certificates, covered by section 2 of the 1968 Act and section 2 of the 1988 Act, permit the holder to possess any number of shotguns, which can include pump-action and self-loading weapons which have a magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges but excluding large magazine smooth bore guns. The certificate specifies the description of the shotguns including, if known, the identification numbers of the guns.

Records are kept locally of firearms owners and firearms. Any dealer or other person who sells any type of firearm or shotgun is required to notify the police of the sale. In this way the police certification departments have records of the types and serial numbers of all the guns legally held on firearm and shotgun certificates. (4)

Training Requirements: An applicant for an FAC for target shooting must be a member of a firearms club approved by the Home Office, and have completed a 3-month probation.

Storage Requirements: Storage Requirements: Holders of firearm and shotgun certificates are required to keep their weapons securely. The police will inspect the applicant's storage to make sure that it is secure. Usually, the police require separate lockable safes for the guns and ammunition, securely affixed to the residence of the applicant.

Ammunition: Possession of ammunition for firearms requires a firearm certificate (FAC), and the same requirement applies to hold the ammunition securely, i.e. in a locked cabinet. Any change of address must be notified to the appropriate police forces as the licensing authorities. A change of storage location would also have to be notified, as holders of firearms certificates have to satisfy the police as to their security arrangements, and a change of location would change those arrangements.

Prohibited Firearms: Military weapons have been prohibited since 1988. Following the public inquiry into the Dunblane massacre on March 13th, 1996, when 16 primary school children and their teacher were murdered by a member of a local gun club (6), a new law was passed, which banned 95% of handguns and required that the remainder (.22 calibre) be stored at gun clubs. Several months later a total ban on handguns was implemented accompanied with a buy back. More than 100,000 handguns were surrendered. Further proposals are being considered. (10)

A few years back, a guy made a post in state newspaper. After one of many stabbings in Jackson,MS. Anyway it was a spoof. He was advocating saftey locks on knives. "Please do this for the kids sake, protect our children." I'll see if I can find it. It was great!

Yes, Jag, we did touch on the self-defense issue before. Now obviously, I'm not on the ground there, and have to rely on other sources for informtion.

Like these:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../07/do0702.xml

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_repo...cpr-26n2-1.pdf

http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?n...rticle&sid=700

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=33945

http://www.illusionfree.com/weblog/i...13_fight_back/

(I also usually recommend reading The Seven Myths of Gun Control.)

Quote:

Any smoothbore barreled firearm with a barrel length of at least 24 inches, and which has no magazine or a non-detachable magazine incapable of holding more than two cartridges, and is not a revolver gun and has no barrel with a calibre of more than 2 inches, requires a shotgun certificate.

WTF. :eek:

I think it says that you can have a small cannon on your battlements, but you have to register it.

There are also older mass hunting shotguns called punt guns although I don't know what they call them in England.

They were basically mini cannons you loaded with fistfulls of shot and blasted away at birds on the water.

Oh yeah! The ones that could take out an entire flock of ducks!

Thems the ones. They would mount them on the front of a rowboat and row quietly to the flock and blast the shit out them with no warning.

Granted they were usually doing it for food instead of sport back then.

There is an excellent description of one of those (The Twombly?) in one of Michener's books ... Chesapeake, I think (which I read for a course in Historical Geography of the US, along with Centennial).

Just thought I'd add it is legal In UK for anyone to drive a tank on public roads as long as the gun is disabled. There's a yellow Abbot Tank that used to be driven around London just for fun. Now try and tell me you can do that in the US. NRA or no NRA

But you can't run with scissors..or at least that's what I was told in kindergarten.

Yes Brits are officially insane. Thats' why they've come up with Monty Python, Red Dwarf, Hitchhiker's Guide.., Mr. Bean, Blackadder and offshoots, The Life and Times of Reggie Perrin, Fawlty Towers...to name a few. Maybe they don't travel well but they like them.

wolf, those are opinion pieces, not the law. Secondly, the telegraph is a right wing paper, this became in issue when the tories tried to furge it and claimed you could get thrown in jail for protecting your home (false). I fail to see any facts in that article that state you cannot protect yourself because IT ISN'T FUCKING TRUE. I mean jesus fucking christ the WND article even manages to overlook the minor fact that poor old farmer shot the kid in the back while he was running away, hardly fucking self defence. You can read all the opinion articles you want, the law is clear. How about instead of spin you read the facts, try this.
To quote:

Quote:

Householders who injure or even kill intruders are unlikely to be prosecuted - providing they were acting "honestly and instinctively", new guidelines say.

Quote:

As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and fear felt, the more force can be used lawfully in self-defence, it said, adding that householders do not have to wait to be attacked before defending themselves.

So what if... the attacker who is now running away has stolen property in his hands? Is it ever ok to shoot him then?

Possibly in Texas, where you are allowed to defend property rather than just life. Please consult an attorney in your own jurisdiction.

it is always ok if after you shoot them in the back, you flip 'em over shoot 'em in the front drag 'em around the house for a bit and makeit look like a nice big fight.

in CO you can shoot them if they have broken into your house, are an immediate threat to someone's life, or if they are committing arson. Only arson, no other personal property crime. No backshooting, either. yell at em and make em turn around first.

Great Britain confiscated tons and tons of shotguns and other items from its subjects and destroyed them. Heirloom-quality stuff, too, not the kind you would rob a liquor store with. Sorry to see that it didn't solve the crime problem. Too bad, as well, that all the law-abiding British gun owners were essentially robbed by their government in the name of useless posturing for the anti-gun crowd.

And now, knives. If any of you guys need your steak cut, send it over and I'll do it for you. At least until beef consumption is banned. And if you all get sick of being oppressed by your government, we've cleared a substantial swath of land for you in the middle east. Ripe for colonization by disaffected Brits. Worked for us 300 years ago, you might try it.

Floridians (as of December, I believe) will be able to respond to a 'life-threatening situation' in any location with retaliatory fire. Whether or not that's a good thing has yet to be determined.

Anything that decreases jeb's minions is a good thing. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by headsplice

Floridians (as of December, I believe) will be able to respond to a 'life-threatening situation' in any location with retaliatory fire. Whether or not that's a good thing has yet to be determined.

THAT sounds like legally-sanctioned open season on the staff of abortion clinics :mg:

"Floridians (as of December, I believe) will be able to respond to a 'life-threatening situation' in any location with retaliatory fire. Whether or not that's a good thing has yet to be determined."

Florida's been a "shall issue concealed-carry permits" state since 1987, so they've had something like this in effect for eighteen years. It's caused a dramatic, longterm drop in crime in Florida, too, so we can expect this new measure to be a good thing. There are those who are desperate never to acknowledge this, out of either an appalling fear of guns or an even more appalling love for crime and genocide, but the facts are on the side of the NRA, the GOA, the JPFO, and the real genocide opponents worldwide: arm the good guys extensively, and the bad guys fail. Which is what's wanted, isn't it?

The JPFO's argument that if you're truly antigenocide you are progun has never been refuted, rebutted, or debunked, and it's been out there since 1994.

Are you sure you're a Californian?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

Are you sure you're a Californian?

Birth certificate says "Fort Ord," which is just north of Monterey.

Hey, just because Sacramento is unenlightened (even the Governator could pull up his socks on the issue) doesn't mean I suffer from the same problem. :cool: Thirty-eight other states of the Union have experienced the joy of dramatic and permanent declines in the crime rate from freeing up concealed carry alone. California is not one of them. Get enough progun people into the front lines here and we could really repair this state.

Fort Ord? So you're an army brat like Marichiko. :haha:

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Fort Ord? So you're an army brat like Marichiko. :haha:

Be nice! :biggrin:

Actually concealed carry is my answer to terrorism etc... Nothing like armed citizens to keep the bad guys wondering.

Mmm... though in that instance it requires a considerable measure of just sheer luck to successfully counter a homicide-bomber with pistol fire. In Israel, that's only happened about twice, and they've had practice. There's been one instance at least in Iraq, but that was with a .50-cal sniper rifle in a battle and it rather raised the shooter's eyebrows at the time. One expects a man body-shot with a single bullet to fall down, not to blow into a cloud of pink mist.

Bruce, permit me to advise you against trying too hard to look like an asshole early on. If you are indeed a genuine, spherical asshole, it will become evident in due course. Give it time to transpire. If you are not a spherical asshole (one no matter what angle you look from) perhaps you'd rather not convey an unfortunate first impression. Ball's in your court.

UG - your entrance into some recent threads has managed to make me look like a raging liberal. wow. i've got ask though - do you believe all the shite you are spouting or are you just trolling?

Hmm. How raging are you?

I've been around here before, though there's been a long pause. Got to amble over to Cyber Soap Box too, sometime soon, and see what's doing.

I've been around the world, in installments -- the ends of the belt, as it were, meet about the east longitude of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. I'm pushing fifty. I read, I study -- and all this has added up to the views I'm "spouting," and motivates me to send certain people scuttling, scourged. Politically, I am of the right-Libertarian persuasion; libertarianism strikes me as the better political philosophy, but I often agree with Republicans, particularly in their strength -- foreign policy.

you haven't spouted much big L libertarianism in these parts from what i've seen. you are talking about an interventionist, nationbuilding ideology. if that is what you believe then good for you, but don't fool yourself into believing that is libertarianism.

and just to be clear - if you think you have sent anyone away feeling scourged or chastened you might want to go back and reread your interactions.

Read what I've written replying to Jaguar -- a scourgebunny if ever there was one. He's cold meat.

From what I understand of libertarianism (I'm a small L, btw), it is simply too important to brook interference from slavemongers, collectivists, and other boobies.

Diego Garcia ? Hmm. Not many people know where that is. Unless of course they were posted there in the US military. As the saying goes "never let a Diego by"
As for shooting suicide bombers I thought we had that all clear now. As with the stupid Brazilian guy who insisted on contniuing to run. You shoot them in the head.
Tazers I fear would ignite the detonator resulting in said pink mist.

Lookout. Will my soogy $20 bill help if I imerse it the brake fluid / bleach mixture I still have outside the back door?