NOAA Weather
 

I see they have got in swing of things now. :rar:
weather . WTF are people thinking? :headshake

Y'know, this is the only country I know of where the inhabitants try to make ignorance a virtue.

Read your own sig. (Or have I completely misinterpreted your statement? I hope so.)

I guess I was just wondering why english isn't the norm for the usa. As in CA. where they had to print vote ballots in something like 23 languages. WTF I know, just a dumb redneck :smack: BTW so nice of you to judge me.

English is the norm. That's why the normal page is in English, and the experimental one is in Spanish.

For now. :eyebrow:

HM. By golly I had almost figured that experimental part out, but why spanish? As much money as wally world & others owe China, why not Chinese?

I guess no one bothered to notice that the page was for Jackson, MS. Hell according to most folks, we've not learned to talk english yet.

That's why I left wiggle room in my statement. I can only judge you by what you say.
In most places, learning 2-3 languages is the norm for literate individuals. Somehow, in the US, knowing more than the required one language is considered a bad thing -- somehow disloyal. What does that say about us? Are we so cock-sure that we have the answer for everything that we can ignore the rest of the world?
- Pie

Refusing to speak English is the bad thing.

We laud the multilingual here, last I checked.

Ask the waitstaff in any major european city. They'll tell you, throughly.

:handup: Vouch for that. I've met most of them.

This thread reminds me of a lame joke:

What do you call a person who speaks 3 languages?
Tri-lingual

What do you call a person who speaks 2 languages?
Bi-lingual

What do you call a person who speaks one language?
American

Like we give a shit what a bunch of snooty servers with superiority complexes think. I don't much care what the waitstaff thinks of me personally here, why would I care there?

because they handle your food before you eat it.

I once could read, speak a fair amount of German, some Indonesian and a little dab of Farsi,sp? Iran. But really in US. As in south. Your not exposed to anything to learn. When I was in school, I don't think they even taught spanish. Couldn't find a teacher? :) Say in Frankfurt, you catch a train. In ten or twelve hours you might pass though six or eight languages. Oh well

How do you think I would be treated if I moved to France and demanded they speak English? How about Mexico? Or Russia?
I'm talking about dealing with the government, official business?
I look at countries like Canada and see that multi languages do more harm than good.
If an individual is or wants to be multilingual thats great but to force it on a nation only leads to animosity and apprehension.
I've seen people that came to the US and didn't learn English. They would pick up enough to barely function and live in a neighborhood with similar immigrants for social interaction. They demanded their children speak English so the kids could have the opportunity to succeed and live anywhere.
How many different languages have come here in 200 years? Should every American learn them all to make these people welcome? I don't think so.

The biggest plus to Canada's approach is keeping their country together as a single unit, instead of breaking it in two and creating strong cultural boundaries. I think Canadians would tell you that their cultural diversity is a plus.

That is hilarious. :lol:

Oh - what - it wasn't meant to be a joke? Oh, sorry.

Look, there's no shame in being too lazy to learn a different language - we don't need to, as Europeans cater for us. But feeling you have to excuse it by saying 'I don't give a shit what they think' or 'how would they like it if I did bla bla bla' is just plain stoopid.

I think Bruce is serious and I agree with him.

Allowing for multiple languages allows for groups to become insular, it makes discrimination easier as well as making it easier for the gov't to pit group against group.

There will always be someone you can't understand because they speak a different language. With greater exposure to multiple languages, the next generation could become more open to and adept at foreign languages. Why enforce ignorance? Why encourage it? Opening Muslim textbooks does not make one a Muslim - let them learn, and make their own mind's up. If a group of people is going to be separatist or insular, they'll find a way of doing it, be it through language or bank accounts.

:thumbsup: Eloquently stated.
English is the national language of the United States of America. Immigrants should be encouraged to learn this language, to better co-exist with the rest of us.
By the same logic, perhaps we Americans should learn other languages, familiarize ourselves with other cultures, in order to better co-exist with them?

Busterb, what do you think?
- Pie

Don't we? I took latin, spanish and french in school - as well as at least one class actually called 'world cultures'. Was my school unique?
Admittedly, I'd struggle to conjugate a verb in french at this point because I haven't used it at all in a long, long time, and you forget after a while. But everything is in english around here. ::shrug::

No, it wasn't unique. I took Spanish and German. Russian, Italian, Latin, Greek and French were also offered. World Cultures was a joke, or at least my teacher was a joke.
But the point I was trying to make is that there are folks who would get rid of foreign language requirements, fire all the language teachers, 'cause "We are all Americans who should speak English and only English!"

I'm fairly fluent with Spanish and have very very basic German. Next summer when I've graduated I'm going to spend ~3 months living in Germany to practice.

From what I hear I'll have to convince Germans to speak to me in German instead of English.

I don't care about anyone else. I'll embrace any culture and their language.

Cool! Wohin in Deutschland werden Sie gehen? Some people leave their heart in San Francisco; I left mine in München. :beer:

By golly I had almost figured that experimental part out, but why spanish?

Someone hasn't checked, lately, to see what language the people working in the fields in Mississippi speak!

Language in an academic sense is ok, but outside of that it is a barrier.

If everyone spoke the same language it would be much easier to find ostensibley legitimate things to hate each other for.

what a load of crap. people who are multilingual are not spat upon. they are too be commended. i've never heard anyone say that we should ONLY speak english in this country, but rather you should be able to speak AT LEAST english.

why is it chic to ridicule americans who only speak english? because they can't speak spanish? they are in an english speaking culture, why should they have to learn a second or third language so they can communicate to someone in their own country?

americans who only speak one language (english) in america = lazy, stupid, ethnocentric

mexicans who only speak one language (spanish) in america = poor, misunderstood, disadvantaged... WTF?

I believe the start of this was that the government dare offer the weather in Spanish. If your English version is available, what do you care? How are you slighted or inconvienced in any way? What are you really so afraid of?

The Latino boom in our city has increased the amount of Spanish language signage and services, and enhanced my existence through mercados, interesting radio stations, and excellent food!

Travelers of all origins can/may choose to be insular assholes but they'd miss what's great about exploring new places and people. My experience has been that no matter how ignorant, (I speak one language and often do that poorly) if you act with respect you'll be met with it.

And as a former food service worker, the ugly customer thing is pretty lively English on English, as well. Jag's caution is well stated.

Depends on how much money was spent on it I guess. Reading about how much California spends printing ballots in all the various languages helped me form my opinion on the matter of a national language, not fear.

In order to vote, you must be a US Citizen. People born in the US are citizens by default, and should be able to speak English. Naturalized citizens must show proficiency in English as part of their citizenship requirements.

There is no reason to print ballots in multiple languages.

I have to decide between München, Berlin and Stüttgart. Any advice?

Yes, we value our immigrant bootstraps, right?

So is it cost effective to have informed citizens, informed voters? ...realizing that legal immigrants, US citizens might have various levels of English language fluency at any moment, is it worth the money to make sure they can better understand the issues they are voting on, or maybe know what immunizations to get for their kids in public school? Its sounds to me like a question of equal access.

I support the public funding of ballot translations not only on the grounds of access but also on the grounds of a good investment in a more informed group of voters. I dont think it discourages the learning of English, even if those kids will still need to translate for grandma. It helps engage new immigrants more immediately in a larger community.

We also have a lot of Hmong citizens around here that are exempt from the English proficiency requirement- such that it is, mostly due to their old age and dedication to the US during Vietnam. Hmong translations are found for most public documents.

Sure, people who come to the US from Mexico should learn to speak English. I don't think anyone has an issue with that. I just find it interesting that Americans who go overseas DEMAND that people in other countries speak English--that's why we're often called lazy, stupid and ethnocentric. I've done a fair amount of traveling, and it blows my mind how often I see Americans get frustrated and/or pissed off because someone in France, Russia or China can't speak English. When I was in Germany I once saw saw an American question a merchant as to why he didn't take AMERICAN DOLLARS. I wanted to hide under a rock.

Should people who move to other countries learn the language? YUP, regardless of who they are and where they're coming from.

There are a lot of requirements to be able to vote.

Speaking English isn't one of them.

What about a deaf person? Required? Oh, read English. Blind person? Disenfranchised? Special cases you say? What about understanding? Comprehension? What level of knowledge is required?

I think this whole thing STINKS of "I'm in, now let's slam the door, before I have to share with those icky others".

We have so many people for whom English fluency is not the reason they don't vote, it's a shame. Why then should we place obstacles in the way of people who do care enough to vote?

This is self correcting by the way. There is no one involved enough and cares enough to vote in this country that also thinks that they should not learn English. Somebody that motivated is gonna learn some English too.

This is true, but not at the expence of having more lazy bastards on the Gov. pay rolls. Do you by chance think that when I was working overseas, I had an interpreter working with me? The boss had one, but he was busy grave robbing. :mg: While in Sumarta, We had one guy that each morning he would teach you a new word and you him. Our driver carried me to family weddings & to his hut. I also had to convert to Islam to marry. Think maybe I became familiar enough with their ways?

No. This is wrong.
Yes, this is right. But only if both want to and only as far as both parties want to.

Anyone here grow up in the US with a home language other than English?

My son, he's deaf. Doesn't speak English. Home language SEE sign and ASL

Pie. "No, it wasn't unique. I took Spanish and German. Russian, Italian, Latin, Greek and French were also offered". One thing for sure you didn't go to school in the south in the 50s and 60s.
One thing that crosses my mind is how long before some egghead in DC, thinks we need new road signs? in 25 flavors.
Of course the international road sigs are a 1/2 ass flop. And metric system, god how can a dumb american handle units of 10 OMG.
Some places you go overseas they just give you an international DL., if you have a current one. Not Germany. In army we had to take the same test as anyone. Working with blueprints overseas, you can forget the inches & feet.

Is your son illiterate, or do you expect him to be so when older?

I have some cousins from Ontario that would like to confer with you....in the alley. :eyebrow:

why is it chic to ridicule americans who only speak english?

More importantly, I was actually trying to figure out why anyone would be upset to see NOAA weather in Spanish. Is there really anything wrong with that?

I guess nothing but the fact that they can't even get it right in english. :smack:

No, he is not. Naturally I do not expect him to become illiterate later.

As a matter of fact, ElderSonofV has been accepted into the Honors Program at Gallaudet University, including a Merit scholarship and a Presidential scholarship. We are extremely proud of him.

But literacy is not a function of English fluency.

The English, the whole English, and nothing but the English, is at best, short sighted. Like any monoculture, there are great opportunities for economies of scale, but with proportionally great risks. Language is a medium of exchange of ideas, infomation. Having one medium only necessarily inhibits that exchange.

Your car's engine communicates it's power to the wheels through the transmission. But you don't just drive around in your favorite gear, do you? What about shifting? Your retirement fund grows your future wealth through your investment choices. You would choose only XYZ, Inc, though, would you? What about diversification? Your body is nourished by what your put in it, and your mind by what you put in it. You wouldn't eat only one food or read only the cellar, right? :)

Variety is the spice of life. Diversity is good. Vive le difference!

Two words...

Lost in the translation...

That's not the case at all. I haven't met one person that thinks learning a second or third or more languages is a bad thing.

My problem is that fact that people live in a country whose Primary Language is English, yet they don't take the time to learn it. It *should not* be my responsibility to pay for translators in civic departments (including health and welfare divisions) and 23 languages in voting booths, and the cost of printing things in multiple languages.

It has nothing to do with me knowing or not knowing another language. It has *everything* to do with an individual who resides in this country should have a functioning level of competency in the language used by the government.

The fact that we *do* have information and forms available in several languages is a courtesy and should not be confused with obligation.

Look, we live in a democracy and not all vote, we live in country under the rule of law and we have criminals...

Do you think making English "the Law" will make things better? Should we put speed bumps on the freeway to keep the speeders in check? Should all buildings be steel or brick to foil the arsonists?

And why even bother with all the different ways we get our information? What a waste! Let's just have the gov't print up the ballots and the voter instructions and everything we need to know (in english) and just shitcan the rest. That'll show da bums! :smack:

My problem is that fact that people live in a country whose Primary Language is English, yet they don't take the time to learn it.

Who are these hoards of slackers you have a problem with? I see tons of English language learners each week of all levels. Might there be other reasons besides time that their fluency is lacking? Does that matter to you? Should we just leave them ill informed? Would that impact us negatively? Should we help them at all? What about helping fund English classes? Is that out, too? I think translational, educational help is a courtesy and in all of our best interests. If you want participatory goverment you need to facilitate participation. You need to share information and communicate clearly.

Remind me: What public education services do your children, those with special needs receive? Are they tax funded by the likes of me- someone with no children at all? I assume that your kids need government funded services and arent just slackers. I dont view those expenses as a courtesy. I actually believe that investing in the access to and education of your kids is a good, financial and ethical investment on my part. I think it will make them productive and better citizens. And if your kids need communication assistance to participate as better citizens, I would think that a good investment , too.

There are so many other legitimate areas of waste in government spending of my money. What about the 72 milllion dollar pay bonus we just gave Brown and Root, inc. AKA Halliburton the non bid contractor who is still under investigation for shady accounting, overcharging? Where is that outrage?

I was gonna remove my cap in respect and clap politely, but I think I'll just say FUCKIN' A!! :thumbsup:

To risk sounding like a 'Me Too' I have to echo BigV and say "Right fucking on"

Brown & Root (Halliburton) is different...they're doing God's work for W. Or is that W's work for God? Whatever.

As for 23 translations for CA voters, it's the voters duty to know what they're voting on before they ever get to the polls. They should know what proposition xx is about and whether they are yay or nay before election day. Providing a translation of a couple of sentences and expecting them to make informed choices is silly....hell, give them a dart and show them the board....the results are the same. :cool:

Please forgive my weighing in on the subject, but I am a first generation immigrant who came here when I was 5 years old along with my 3 year old sister, and our parents.

A foreign language is a double edged sword. It can be used to introduce your American neighbors to the finer contributions of your former culture to Humanity, and it can be used to make them feel uncomfortable by locking them out of a conversation in your native tongue.

The best way to discern when you are using one blade or the other is to imagine yourself a guest in another person's house. What would you do? Would it be polite to engage only one of their family's members just because they speak your language and it feels good to you to do so? What about the other ones, left standing there with nothing to say? That is rude. It should not be done. Mind your manners.

On the other hand, if you've been invited to a Scottish man's house, and he is introducing you to haggis, it is perfectly proper to tell him of a cajun dish called "paunce", which is very similar, and from there it makes for an interesting conversation between two persons, one of scottish, and another of french extraction, as to the many ties between the scots and the french, particularly during the Reformation and times thereafter. This is a good thing.

It is altogether a different thing for the french person to stand up, announce to the people in the house that this is a shameful scottish ripoff, and proceed to question the scotsman's ownership and stewardship of the house and proceed to rearrange the furniture.

An immigrant such as myself, is here by the grace and generosity of the culture that admits him. He is a guest who is being admitted into the family. The family has a right to its own culture. By accepting foreigners into the family, it does not abridge that right. It is saying to the immigrant, come, be one of us, learn our language and our ways, be family. And by all means, bring us the best of where you came from, treat us to your food, your celebrations, your dance and music, your art, and your literature. But NEVER insult or degrade our culture and nation. Never express ingratitude to your hosts. They have paid you their highest compliment, and you are honor bound to respect that.

Does that mean that you cannot criticize American culture? Of course not. But what it does mean is that you do not stand outside of it lobbing stones at it. No, you criticize it (and praise it) like a family member would. Not for what benefits your former country, or your former culture, but strictly from the point of view of what benefits your new country, America, the country you swore to place above all others when you took the oath. Doing anything else betrays that oath.

That oath binds your children as well. I teach my children to learn and love this culture transmitted through its language and I also encourage them to learn about the one I came from. But I make no bones about what I would think if any of them were so much as to lift a hand against this country. They would be betraying me just as much as they'd be betraying America.

No immigrant ethnic group has a right to demand this country spend its blood and treasure in the interest of it's former nationality. Not Israel, Cuba, Ireland, China, Mexico, Japan, whatever. Once you take the oath, that allegiance is over. Permanently. There may be times where those interests coincide, but the minute they don't, consistent with respecting established treaties, we should stop.

All that said, it is a wonderful thing to speak more than one language. It increases your intelligence and general culture. It allows you to be a friendly American face to another part of the world and its tourists to our own. It allows your children and your children's children to speak the language they'll need to contribute to the society that has given them a home.

Finally, from a practical standpoint, efficiency demands that one language be shared among all immigrants to this country. It would bring us to our knees as a nation if in the misnomer of diversity, we were to have to print everything in many languages. This is just common sense.

When an immigrant comes to live here he must learn the language. By all means, speak what you want to whoever you want, but show some basic manners. To be a part of the American family you must learn its customs and that can only be done in English. Any speaker of two or more languages will tell you that even in the closest of translations, there are many shadings and subtexts of words that don't translate properly. English is a must. Professionally and socially. You hamstring yourself and your progeny otherwise.

Yes, free classes should be given for this. It is in all our best interests. Personally, I believe those free classes should be given in public schools in the evening by previous immigrants from that same group. Think of it as a public service akin to military service. A small price to pay for the boon of American citizenship. Set up a vetting board for each language composed of English-fluent former teachers in that groups language, to pick the volunteers. Standardize the textbook and the course days so anyone can step in and teach any class. Stagger the classes so if any student misses a few classes, they can just pick up where they left off in another school. Standardize a minimum competency test to be taken at the end of 2 years. If the person fails, they have 6 months to retake it. If they fail again, they are sent back to their former country (unless fear of death is an issue) until they can pass it by showing up at an immigration office at the border and taking it again.

I'm sorry. If you can't be bothered to learn the language, you are showing severe disrespect to your hosts and the offer being made to you. There are others dying to get here who can. Go home and rethink what it means to apply for citizenship in another country.

And that, like the man said, is telling it the way I see it. And remember, I'm an immigrant myself, from a non-English speaking culture. One I'm very proud of culturally, but not politically.

Welcome, Philosopher, in every sense of that word. Great first post.

An outstanding proposal.

That was awesome, Philosopher. Will you tell us what country you're originally from, or would you rather not?

*applauds*

Good news: Philosopher, your eloquence/post ratio is 1.000.

Bad News: It can only go down from here.

Good News: Welcome!

Mmmmm Uncle's Sam's meatballs taste really good... fair point though. Welcome, lover of thoughts.

well that breaks the often downward spiral of new posters.

[quote=warch]
Yes, I'm sure there are, and they include laziness. Why learn English when you don't have to? And you DON'T have to, in places like California, Arizona, and Texas (all places I have lived, by the way).

Should we leave them ill-informed? HUH? THEY came HERE VOLUNTARILY. Why do we have to educate them to speak our language?? Why is that my responsibility??

If they are citizens, and therefore can hold a job, then they can afford a class to further their english instruction. But, as it has been pointed out, to become a citizen requires at least a working knowledge of English. I'm speaking primarily of the hordes of illegals that can't or won't learn English.

Why should I pay for that??? THEY came HERE VOLUNTARILY. Now, if a philanthropic group of private individuals wants to fund classes, more power to them. But the government doing so is wrong, IMO.

If they can't communicate in our language, they aren't going to be participating in our language. That's the whole point. Again, I'm saying ESL classes should not be government funded. Private funding is a whole nother issue.

This school year: none. He was tested and confirmed to have problems, but they didn't have a special needs program that was appropriate. So he was placed in a regular setting, and disrupted the class all year. Your tax dollars at work.

Neither child recieves anything other than regular public school education.

That's great, and I appreciate your view on that, however, my children getting a public school education has nothing to do with the governemnt spending untold millions of dollars on printing forms in multiple languages and interpreters and higher salaries for bilingual employees.

I'm EQUALLY outraged at that waste. The difference here is that you justify the waste of funds on voluntary immigrants (and voluntary illegals) but not corporate politics. I don't believe either are justifiable.

Thank You, Philosopher, for being eloquent and for sharing your relevant view in a polite, non threatening and thoughtful manner.

And welcome to the Cellar.... :)