Fox again
 

Fox made the comment Friday during a public appearance in Puerto Vallarta, saying: "There's no doubt that Mexican men and women — full of dignity, willpower and a capacity for work — are doing the work that not even blacks want to do in the United States."

Well, yeah, the negros have been getting lazy and shiftless and preferring to do things like go to college ...

*peeks into room* :bolt:

Wow.

I'd say Fox was right on the money. I don't understand the big deal. *shrugs*

it's Fox... I'm not at all suprised that the insipid bastards that employ anne coulter would make such a comment. although they do have a show coming up that is about peak oil production.. now THAT blew my mind! I'm going to have to break down and watch that one just to see which way they end up spinning it.

Fox as in the President of Mexico and not the news network.

*pssst* hey cowhead - we're not talking about Foxnews - it is Vicente Fox - the top dog in mexico.

(sets watch)

ToTo we're not in KS. anymore.

I think we should send Mr. Fox a big fat bill for all the "dignity, willpower and work" of his illegal aliens that the US taxpayers are currently footing. :mad2:

How exactly are they costing us? I'm curious to hear your answer.

*looking blankly* uh oops.. well that guy.. and uh... sorry out of the loop of late.. sorry

and ps. play nice with the Kansas Jokes.. I've heard them all.. no really ALL OF THEM! (although if someone wants to start another thread to insult eachothers states.. feel free! I'll have fun)

By using public services that they aren't paying for: schools and health care mostly.

What about the cost savings on the products/services we use and the SS that many of them pay but don't use (b/c they're using someone else's #)?

Rare. Mostly they are working pure under the table jobs. The stolen SS#s are for when they get questioned on the street.

That depends on the source, it would seem.

From Fox News: Although hiring undocumented workers is illegal, the law is rarely enforced. Three out of four foreigners that enter the United States do so illegally and half are paid under the table, so they don't pay taxes.

On a more local level, from the Illinois Coalition for Immigrant and Refugee Rights, regarding undocumented immigrants in Chicago: Although 70% of undocumented immigrant workers pay taxes, they often don't collect tax refunds owed them.

Yeah, I figured that's where you were going with that.

There are two sources of "income" from illegals: Those who work for below minimum wage (cash workers) and those who use fake SS #s to take "normal" jobs that pay no less than minimum wage. The cash workers don't pay SS.

So, where does the "income" go from those two places? For the cash workers, the wage differential b/w cash and minimum wage + taxes goes into the pocket of the employer but, in competitive situations, can be passed through in the form of cheaper strawberries. For the illegals using fake SS #s, the SS money is sitting in a mythical vault somewhere in DC.

So, in your hometown, illegals are flooding the school system and the health care system and the DMV and a host of other public services. Your property taxes are skyrocketing because the social infrastructure must expand to accomodate the extra demand created by the illegals - new schools, higher budgets for social programs, more money for uninsured patient health care, etc., etc., etc.

So, given what happens to the income created by the cash-worker illegals (lines the pocket of the employer or cheaper strawberries) and the income by the fake SS minimum wage or higher illegals (vault under the white house), it should be fairly obvious that the feel-good notion of "cost-savings" does absolutely nothing to address the burden that they create.

Estimates put it at $7 Billion per year that illegals dump into SS coffers.

See my previous post, Beestie. I personally don't think that the scenarios you presented (schools, DMV, etc.) are all that prevalent.

Big deal, that's not even covering the cost of two months of operations in the middle east. :stickpoke

At least it's $7 billion more than we expected to have.

$7Billion in SS coffers? how does that pay for the schools in Arizona? California? Texas?

How about the medical care? When the hospital treats yet another illegal, and gets no money in return, can they send the claim to the SS system?

How about the law enforcement costs? who is paying for that? finding a house with 50-200 illegals crammed inside of it sounds good on the news, but who pays for everything that follows?

what about the cost when illegals get into traffic accidents and then split because they don't want to get caught?

i don't know what it is like in Philly, but I can walk outside of my office right now and find an illegal standing out there waving a flag looking for day work within 3 minutes walk. They are everywhere and they are expensive.

keep in mind that most of the money they make while here, doesn't get spent in our economy, it goes right back to Mexico.

hell, i say open the gates for legal immigration, but do something real to stop this illegal BS. make the penalties painful for both employer and illegal - if the risk is significantly higher than the possible reward, they will quit coming.

I wonder how much the deflationary effect on the labour market is worth...

Go to any of the chicken towns here in MS. and look around. Think your best shot for a great job at wal mart in Laurel,MS. is if you can speak mex. Go to Piggly Wiggly, a super market in this small town on payday & see them at W. union sending money. Legal great. Illegal nope. imho.

Lookout, I don't doubt that there are some instances where people are getting hosed, particularly in traffic accident situations. However:

--The dollar amounts I've seen on what illegals "cost" varies...quite widely.
--Any numbers thrown around regarding illegals are half-assed at best, IMO. After all, we're talking about illegals. Who knows what the real numbers are.
--A cost-benefit analysis could very well show that the benefits of illegals outweigh the costs.
--Of the big immigrant states, Arizona seems to be the most sensitive to issues involving illegals (California is probably a close second).

Taking those into account, I wonder if the real issue is perception.

As far as Philadelphia, from what I know and have seen, we have a growing number of illegal Mexicans in South Philly, but I don't think they constitute a real problem.

kind of makes sense that you don't see a real problem, don't you think? you don't see them. not many of them anyway. when is the last time did the philadelphia news report a drop house with 150 illegals stuck inside?

they really are here. they really do effect medical, legal, education, and government costs. they really do just hang out on the streets waving flags waiting for daywork. they really do wire the money they make back south of the border.

they only argument we hear down here is "if we didn't have undocumented workers we would have to pay $25 for a cheeseburger." BS. i'm willing to chance it. hunt the bastards down, toss 'em out. drastically increase the number of legal immigration slots available. shoot the little fuckers that still decide to walk across the border. pile the bodies up as a message - do it the legal way or don't bother.

yes, i really do mean it. why bother pretending we worry about border security when anybody can walk right across the border, but it is unPC to say anything about it.

No...I think the real difference here is our political philosophies. We're just seeing the issue from two different sides.

The only thing I don't agree with you on is sentence #2. See my previous post.

A point was brought up the other day, and I don't recall seeing it mentioned here yet.

It's not that there are jobs that people won't do, it's just that there are some wages that people won't work for.

In a country where 50 bucks will pay your bills for a month, 2 dollars an hour is wonderful. Living 20 people in a trailer, and there are whole parks of them here, allows you to send 90% of your money back to Mexico.

Paying 2 dollars an hour removes any motivation for a company to pay competitive wages, even after fines. All you have to do is target the companies and the problem will solve itself for the most part.

I agree with you to a point. But I do think that there are also jobs that many people just won't do because they're "above it."

True, but those aren't the people we're talking about. As time goes by, and inflation inflates, expected wages, regardless of the job, will rise. Undocumented laborers, and the illicit wages they incite, can cause instability.

I agree for the most part. There seems to be a growing aversion to hard work in this country. I've seen immigrants doing more things like dishwashing, janitorial services, etc., which didn't seem as prevalent in the 1990s.

Possibly. But if instability is a real concern (and it doesn't seem to be at the moment), I think it would be caused by something like outsourcing rather than illegals.

You mentioned targeting companies. What do you think would happen if that were done?

I don't like it, but I'm realistic about it ... if the gov't cracked down hard on illegals working ... we'd see more businesses move their manufacturing operations off shore.

i worked in manufacturing and i never ran across an illegal immigrant, that i am aware of.

we see them in construction, restaurants, farming, landscaping, most physical labor jobs - but not usually in factories, in my experience.

Goddamn, Wolf! You just might have redeemed yourself in the Book of Sycamore with your pragmatism. :)

You haven't been to the chicken factories in Southern Delaware, my friend. :)

Tyson food in MS. is full of them. I'll go make a photo of a place soon. Some Mex. ? got big bucks in law deal and bought the place. They set out pine seedlings, rake pine straw for sale to land scape cos. And work in all the stinking chicken plants.

That's not manufacturing and it's not going offshore. ;)

If those jobs that Americans don't want to do were in Mexico, then the Mexicans would have no reason to move to the US. This point is constantly put before Lookout123. As usual, he just ignores it. And yet wolf has exactly stated the point.

Why not then let US sugar industries move to Mexico? Because as long as labor intensive jobs such as sugar growing remain in the US, then the US government pays for 50% of the cost of that sugar on your table. Those who profit are those who receive corporate welfare. Sugar grown in the US is subsidized that much. In LA, that state even paid for the construction of a surgar reprocessing plant. (Some states instead subsidized professional ball players). Corporate welfare again - for an industry that would move to where the workers are if free market conditions applied. Problem is cutting off welfare from industries that spend so much on buying politicians. Sugar being one of the largest legal politician purchasers in this nation.

How to stop the illegal immigrant problem? Stop subsidizing sugar and a few other 'made rich by the government' agricultural industries. Then the labor intensive jobs move to where the people are who want to do those jobs. Unfortunately, the US government instead pays many labor intensive industries to remain in the US where labor is no longer available to do those jobs.

Lookout123 instead foolishly thinks putting the 82nd Airborne on the borders (and other brute force methods) will stop the problem. Bull crappin' Bible. A major reason for illegal immigration is that many industries massively subsidized by the American government then need illegals to perform work. People are only going where the jobs are because free market forces no longer apply.

What two nations are most anti-free trade when it comes to agriculture? The US and France. Even numerous WTO rulings on agriculture are against the US because of so much corporate welfare to big American industries such as US Sugar. Administering Sugar Imports

Funny. Even the WTO wants to solve the US illegal immigrant problem. Cut off government subsidizes. Eliminate tarrifs designed only to enrich and protect big sugar industry fat cats. Then jobs currently filled by illegal immigrants will instead move to where those immigrants reside. No more corporate welfare. Massive reduction in the illegal immigrant problem. Lookout123 is silenced. Three problems solved by one solution.

The reason sugar is subsidized is that it is a necessary commodity in war time.
Therefore in the interest of the country not to have it under the control of a foreign power during say...the Spanish American War. :)