Rice urges calm, calls Koran desecration abhorrent
 

Oh sweet Lord, here we go again.

Can someone please tell these idiots that they are not helping. There are people in a war zone who would probably appreciate not bearing the brunt of the monumental stupidity these guys will show.

"Mischaracterize our intentions"?

I remember the lawyers summation in the movie A Time to Kill.

Someone should tell the guys at Guantanamo "Pretend it's the Bible".

Destroying a Koran isn't tantamount to torture, no matter how you spin it.

Doesn't mean it isn't nasty and stupid, but it isn't torture.

And any Christians who feel that strongly about doing the same to the bible are idolators, so there :-)

But nothing is more evil than destroying an issue of The Economist.

yeah, i have to agree. if i saw someone do that to the Bible - i would consider them stupid... but i don't think i would feel tortured.

but making those poor prisoners endure the sight of a topless american women...
- oh wait, i don't see how that is torture, either.

torture would be someone driving a rusty nail through your scrotem while demanding to know where you hid a nuclear arsenal.

*flashing back to Serpent and The Rainbow*I want to hear you scream...

Whoever you are, please don't mistreat tw.

Is there actually any evidence this happened or is this just some crazy rumour that got out of hand? Would've thought flushing a book would be difficult.

From the article it appears that everyone is assuming it did happen. Whether they tore it apart, just put it in the bowl, etc, is beside the point.

Technically, it is not physical torture. It is incitement. If someone went to downtown Little Rock, threw a bible on the street, unzipped and peed on it, it would probably start a riot.

Whoever is doing the interrogations is crossing a very dangerous line when they go beyond personal abuse to denigrating a prisoners beliefs. Word of that kind of stuff gets out and makes us look bad.

In the movies, it is always the bad guy who is trashing the prisoners religion. When stuff like this is done in real life, the perpetrator looks bad in the eyes of the people in the middle, the swing voters. These are the people who will ultimately win the war one way or another. It's not the diehard insurgents or the rabidly pro-Coalition supporters who will make the difference.

The middle swinging is why the civil rights movement took hold in the South. It's why in less than a decade, segregation went from tradition to bad idea. A lot of this happened when one side overreached. People watched the beatings and bombings, and the people in the middle made up their minds. It's why the Klan are viewed as a hate group and not patriots.

The middle in Iraq and Afghanistan is still soft. The recent elections have resulted in more help being given to the coalition. They were just coming to believe that a coalition-supported democracy could take shape which would also respect their culture.

And then these assholes have to grandstand.

In programming we have a saying, that one 'aw shit' equals 100 'attaboys'. How many small acts of kindness by individual soldiers, how much goodwill built by civil affairs officers has been wiped out by one moron?

We have been trying to keep this war from being viewed as an attack on Islam ever since Bush used the word 'crusade'. Having a soldier deliberately trash a copy of the Koran is not helping.

Damn! I thought I was the only person who saw that movie.

Unfortunately, I went to see it because I had read the book.

It was not a good adaptation.

Day-amm!

Jag's channelling me.

I wondered the same thing. It doesn't really matter if this is quashing a rumor or speaking to something that actually happened. The public reaction tends to be the same with respect to rumor vs. truth.

Yeah, I heard somebody, somewhere disrespected a book. I guess it's time to do my spring looting.

C'mon people...do you honestly think we'll ever coexist with these assholes? That there will ever be a time we aren't at odds with the muslim world? Fat fucking chance of rationalizing that. :Flush:
People in the muslim world do things we don't approve of all the time but we're not burning down our own government buildings or looting the DC stores. That is beyond stupid.
It follows the same thinking as wacking yourself with chains, barbed wire or knives to prove you're more devout. Sure, If I burn down a bigger government building than you do, it proves I am more outraged therefore more devout than thee. Assholes.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapc...protests.reut/

there are far too many instances of "log" and "toilet" appearing in that excerpt for me to contain my 5th grade sense of humor.

From 2003 - U.S. Pledges to Avoid Torture

I think we dipped into the credibility well one too many times.

From an hour ago:

Newsweek says may have erred in Koran report

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Newsweek magazine on Sunday said it may have erred in a May 9 report that said U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay, and apologized to victims of deadly violence sparked by the article.

The weekly news magazine said in its May 23 edition that the original source of the allegation was not sure where he saw the assertion that at least one copy of the Koran was flushed down a toilet in an attempt to get detainees to talk.

"We regret that we got any part of our story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in its midst," Editor Mark Whitaker wrote in the magazine's latest issue, due to appear on U.S. newsstands on Monday.

Not we. You. You certainly have. And now, once again.

Whether this is true or not, we're fucked either way. If it happened, the folks that did it are total pieces of shit, and we've pissed on the Muslims again (though I wouldn't call desecrating the Qu'ran torture). If it didn't happen, we're still gonna get the evil eye, primarily b/c of Abu Ghraib.

Of course, if everyone would just give up organized religion...

bruce, you don't think Christians would be rioting in the same circumstances? Philippino christians fucking crucify themselves.

Hell, I'm all for giving Muslims a bunch of Bibles to fuck up...why not?

Absolutely not. Possibly a protest, more likely a pray-in, but burning buildings, looting, killing...no way in this country and I doubt in the Philippines either.
Especially on unsubstantiated rumors and I doubt it even if was televised live.
It seems the Koran is more venerated than it's contents. If they paid more attention to the contents they wouldn't be rioting, burning, looting, et al. :mad:

From what I've read, the Qu'ran is more sacred to Muslims than the Bible is to many Christians. It's considered the untainted written word of God. Still...I don't think desecrating it compares to waterboarding, Abu Ghraib, etc.

From my experience and understanding I'd wonder how much was genuine outrage and how much just might possibly be people taking advantage of the protest to do a little looting. But of course that gets in the way of the oh-so-easy muslims are savages theory doesn't it? 10 people died in Afghanistan - at the hands of police. Considering a few hundred died at the hands of police a few days earlier in Uzbekistan one might suggest that the police might be the problem rather than the protesters. Even in Afghanistan protest in most regions were peaceful. In Pakistan most protets consisted simply of marching around with banners and stamping on the US flag.

But lets not let the facts get in the way, right?

Newsweek says, "Blame the Defense Department."

So the original complaint came from a lawyer taking allegations from his Yemeni al Qaeda prisoner.

Does he think he's any more credible after everything else that's come out of that hellhole? I don't know whether it happened or not but shit, they need to hire better PR people. Consider what the Koran says about suicide. Consider how devout most of these people are. Consider: 'mass suicide'.

Saw "Kingdom of Heaven" over the weekend. Visually cool, but the characters weren't so great. They were trying to make sure that the "voice of reason" character was present in the Christian camp, the Muslim camp, and to a lesser extent, the Jewish side. What ended up happening instead was a whole range of people who were indistinguishable from one another save for the style of their headgear.

The scene where the Muslims breach the wall but can't make it through was shot from overhead and showed a mass of ant-like people hung up at the breach and unable to move in any direction...kind of a visual interpretation of the whole fight for Jerusalem over the years.

Not sure where I was going with this. No point, really. But they figuratively flushed the bible and the koran a long time ago, at least from a moral standpoint...why are we giving two hoots about physically destroying them? And when is America going to stop walking on eggshells when it comes to politically correct garbage? We have no problem with deliberately and/or wantonly offending every religious faith on the planet -- just turn on MTV for 10 minutes to see an example.

Even more importantly, would it kill our own media to have an occasional outbreak of pro-American bias? Anyone who dares say anything positive is immediately branded a Bush apologist and a shill for Rupert Murdoch. There are too many fronts in this war as it is without making more on our own soil.

Bleh. I really did have a point, I think.

From MSNBC: The firestorm of anger continued Monday over Newsweek's handling of a story that alleged U.S. interrogators desecrated the Quran as Muslim leaders and the Bush administration both blasted the magazine’s partial retraction of the piece.

Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan said that U.S. pressure was behind the magazine's shift while presidential spokesman Scott McClellan called it "puzzling" that "while Newsweek now acknowledges that they got the facts wrong, they refuse to retract the story." U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called the story "appalling."

What facts did Newsweek get wrong? They'd seen multiple reports of the event, and then got confirmation from one of their sources. Once the furor started, their source backed off the claim, and Newsweek reported that.

Technically, none...although one could argue that Newsweek should not have taken this to be confirmation of the event:

Whitaker wrote that the magazine’s information came from “a knowledgeable U.S. government source,” and writers Michael Isikoff and John Barry had sought comment from two Defense Department officials. One declined to respond, and the other challenged another part of the story but did not dispute the Quran charge, Whitaker said.

IMO, they should have gotten confirmation from at least one more source.

Actually, the whole rioting to be able to loot notion you bring up reinforces the the idea that Muslims = Savages.

Obviously, in large measure they do not.

I remember the big anti WTO riots in melbourne in 2000, the area around the building it was being held in and half the CBD was full of protesters, the vast majority of whom were peaceful. The serious action was throwing eggs at cars and sit-down roadblocks. Then there was the fringe who threw bricks at police, broke windows and generally used it as an excuse to get away with doing criminal damage. I don't think that all of us involved should be judged by their actions, same applies here.

Any large gathering of people is prone to become a mob, sadly. Individual thought tends to go out the window when you're with 10,000 of your closest friends and bitterest enemies. Look at soccer matches, rock concerts, evangelical tent revivals, Mardi Gras, Nazi rallies in the '30s, etc. etc. If you could somehow pull any individual out of one of those gatherings and put them in a room alone (while they continue acting the same way), you'd usually have a case for wolf's floor at the hospital.

Nah, the reason I think some people are savages is because they wake up throwing rocks and firing guns in the air, they throw rocks and fire guns in the air all day, and before they go to bed, they throw rocks, burn effigies, fire guns in the air and tape bombs to their women before their shopping trips. Probably load em up with rocks to throw too.

Well, at Kent State the people who got shot probably weren't the ones who threw the rocks.

By being in or near a protest, you basically run the risk of injury, sometimes at the hands of law enforcement personnel. The odds of them being held accountable are not good. Some of those rules we learned in grade school - sometimes the entire class suffers for the actions of a few people, sometimes the person being attacked is the one who is caught and punished, still apply once we become adults.

You (generic you) are also judged by who you associate with as well. Self-policing can go a long way towards changing people's opinions. If you don't want people to think you're nothing but a bunch rock throwing thugs then when one of you picks up a rock, you stop him.

This policy works on many, many levels and would go a long way towards reducing the opportunities that law enforcement have to intervene. Reduce those opportunities and the LE won't have a legitimate excuse to step in and crack skulls.

And you don't think the fundies feel the same way about the bible? :eyebrow:

Remember we're talking about the extremists. It's always the extremists because they're the ones in the news. We can't talk about the others because we don't know what they feel or even what they do. It's not on the news.

Nah...that seems rather different to me. Muslims as a whole seem to care way more about their religion than Christians do.

You've never had the pleasure of meeting a REAL Christian. :lol2:

Have you ever had the pleasure of living in the South? I have. :)

You could argue that the Qur'an is slightly more analogous to Jesus than to the Bible, actually: according to itself, the Qur'an is the revealed word of god (there's actually a whole theological debate that I can't recall the main points of as to if the Qur'an is the Word of God or God or which came first or something, but let's ignore that) in its unmodified, original form.

Ignoring the Christological debate, too, let's just say that Jesus is significantly more than 'just another prophet' in the eyes of Christianity. Taught both through actions and sayings, both of which were recorded in the bible. He didn't write it, some other guy down the line did. So the Christian progression goes God -> Jesus -> main guys -> Bible -> everyone; the Muslim version goes God -> Qur'an -> Muhammad -> everyone.

Muhammad lived his life in accordance with the Qur'an and was/is said to be the best example of how to be a Muslim, which would be roughly analogous to the apostles or saints or some other individual. The Bible would be closer to the Sunnah of the Prophet (recorded sayings/actions of Muhammad) than the Qur'an, in this interpretation.

You could also just say that Islam doesn't have as many holy objects/symbols/people, so the religious fervor is more concentrated.

The word is credibility. Did they throw Korans down the toilet? Well don't think of them as books. Think of pocket books that when open can easily fit in your palm. In Arabic media, an equivalent to the O'Reilly Factor interviewed two former prisoners from Guantanamo. Both said they saw Korans thrown down the toilet. Furthermore, I was hearing these accusation being made at least one one year ago in international broadcasts. Somehow, the accusation was only recently picked up by, for example, a famous sportsman now turned commentator in Pakistan. It was not just Newsweek that had been making these accusations.

Look. Those men were held for years in Guantanamo and then released - not even accued of any crimes. The same people who held those two men illegally (the US Government) will be considered honest when saying the Koran was not thrown down the toilet? They lied about the prisoners being al Qaeda. These men also said they were tortured. This is reported to be ordered from the White House that simply decided to change the definition of torture.

Credibility was only one of many things lost when torture was authorized in the highest levels of the American government. Where are all those who, in the Cellar, said that torture is a legitamite tool for interrogation. Why are they suddenly so silent? Why are they not out here avidly defending the credibility of a White House that authorized torture, denied it, and now tries to claim the Koran was not abused. Or has the definition of 'toilet' also changed?

Credibility is even that low among one of Americans stronger supporters.
This comic published in Indian newspapers shows a worried Uncle Sam throwing copies of Newsweek down the toilet. Its all about credibility. The US does not even have one fluent Arabic speaker on the White House staff. But somehow they just know that the Arabic nations will trust them? American credibility therefore is even difficult in India.

These are exactly the lessons of Vietnam. When top management routinely lies (ie the US President), then lying is routine all down into the ranks. But these are the good guys. Therefore we have the right to not investigate murders.

As Gen Janise Karpenski of Abu Ghraid fame noted, her troops did not come to Iraq carrying dog collars and leashes. Those things appeared when Gen Miller arrived from Guantanamo to Gitmoize Abu Ghraid. But we don't want to embarrass the US. So we blame the little people. Clearly those Afghan prisoners must have been guilty of something. Otherwise god would not have let them die.

Sarcastic? We also had to burn the village to save it. But then that was thirty years ago. We don't need no lessons from history. We have a bible to use as toilet paper. Remember, even the definition of toilet has now changed. Maybe those prisoners did not die? Maybe they were just recycled. Good Morning Richard Nixon, Vietnam, and six dead in Ohio - when a president lies.

Too many in The Cellar, I fear, were not at least 16 when Richard Nixon was doing the same things. This is Vietnam all over again - complete with some Americans who refuse to admit such *evil* has happened only because Americans would not do such things. Nonsense. That is the lesson of history. The president even authorized torture. Even those who committed My Lai could not be prosecuted because, well, the president back then was a crook. Lets face it. There is no difference between a gook and a dirty Arab. Clearly it is not right to soil the reputation of some Americans over a few dead (and probably innocent) Arabs.

FISHing. Fighting In Someone's House. Throw in the grenade. Then go in to find out if it is an insurgent or a family that was killed. Full Metal Jacket or Platoon - movies based upon reality. Doesn't matter. When everyone over there is the enemy, then these are legitimate tactics. They are only gooks in Arab robes. Don't fool yourself. That is our nation's attitude when we go to war without waiting for the smoking gun.

What I hear from the rank and file Bush supporters and many that aren't is, "Good, the bastards deserve it." and "Cut off their balls if it will save one of our boys."
I don't know if Bush convinced them or they convinced Bush that it's the right thing to do. Maybe they're on the same wavelength. :confused:

And you obviously didn't learn a damn thing about it except where to eat. :p
Did you ever go to the gospel sing alongs at Mc Donalds?
You don't have to leave PA to find people that consult their savior in every decision, every day.

Yeah, boy, haven't I gotten you to watch Reverend Pastor and General Overseer Geno??

I know that, but I've found them to be far more prevalent in the South and Midwest.

There was no need to go to the gospel singalongs, given the people I lived around during my first year in college.

You should talk to some of the old ladies at the Italian Market in south Philly. The ones that dress in black and have the mole with 2 hairs growing out of it.
Then between Philly and Pittsburgh except Harrisburgh, state college and Griftopia, we have Alabama. :D

Just like in Vietnam. Two years ago, these numbers would be appalling. Today they are 'second page' news stories. Today nine Americans were killed in Iraq. Yesterday's number was five. Same numbers from 1960s Vietnam. Eventually, numbers like 20 and 80 dead per day will become situation normal. Just more lessons from history when the US unilaterally attacks another sovereign nation without a 'smoking gun'.

Another lesson from history. We will let these death numbers increase for maybe six or more years. After all, American attack Vietnam in 1965. But it took more than 5 years for a real anti-war movement to start. It took a Tet Offensive some 7 years later to really bring most Americans to start asking questions. But here we are again, 30+ years later. Too many who did not live through Vietnam now have the 'blood and guts', 'kill the enemy', 'might is right' attitude.

Yesterday, George Jr said we are winning the war. Just like Johnson and Nixon repeatedly said 30+ years ago. History just repeating itself. See that light at the end of the tunnel? Today we call it an exit strategy? Both are called fiction.

Its easier to waste good Americans rather than accept reality. After all, that is exactly what those 1960 neocons (back then called Hawks) advocated. Status quo is good. Means justifies the ends. Ends justifies the means. All nonsense so that we will not admit who the enemy really is. We have met the enemy; and he is us. 14 more dead in that past two days - well after "Misson Accomplished" was declared.

Bianry World verses Ternary World
 

Newsweek wrote a short article relating how Gen Miller was associated with prisoner abuse. A minor paragraph quoted a military source about tossing Korans down a toilet. Other military and government sources did not deny or object to that story. Neither did the White House. Later, this got accelerated by a Pakistani cricket athlete into riots. Newsweek retracts the article. That proves the Koran was not tossed down a toilet?

All true if using binary logic. The world is not binary. The world is ternary. Because Newsweek retracted the article is proof to extremists that it did not happen. But in a ternary world, a Newsweek retraction just means not enough evidence has been obtained. It says nothing about the event. An event that most likely occurred cannot be proved sufficient for Newsweek publication.

These type of accusations are repeated by other ex-prisoners and by at least one former translator. This from The Economist of 21 May 2005: Why? Evidence of this and others abuses even caused Southern Command to investigate? Meanwhile Central Command could not be bothered to investigate proven murders in Afghanistan.

Don't forget the women who claimed to spread menstrual blood on a prisoner's face knowing full well that this is an attack on religious beliefs. Why would a Koran in the toilet be any different?

Those Korans were most likely thrown in the toilet. Actions consistent with America's attitude in Guantanamo and Abu Ghriad - where General Miller took charge. Sufficient evidence to meet the credibility criteria of CBN, Rush Limbaugh, or Fox News. But not enough evidence to be published in Newsweek and other more responsible publications.

There is more than enough evidence to indicate Korans were thrown down the toilet. Not enough evidence to be published in responsible publications. How many Korans were thrown down the toilet? How many Arabs were tortured to death by Americans? They are gooks. They don't matter. Reason enough to ignore such questions. Good Morning Vietnam.

Those living in a binary world - and this is convenient to extremists - would point to a Newsweek retraction and say it did not happen. Those living in a ternary world are asking what else did Americans do after torture was authorized.

It's no different at all. Both actions are harmless.

However, you do end up pissing off your plumber and laundry guy.

I find it sadly ironic that here are dozens of us chiming in on this "messing with the Koran" and upsetting Muslims, but no-one is the least upset that these fanatics are kidnapping, torturing and killing civilians in Iraq. No Western media source expresses outrage over these heinous, cowardly crimes, which happen almost daily, but when a report surfaces about how America is treating its prisoners, in what appear to be relatively isolated events, the whole world goes absolutely bananas. Crowds gather and cause death and destruction over these desecrations, but the kidnappees are just forgotten about as not worth getting all lathered up about. The usual hypocrisy, I see.

I suspect the number of captives "tortured to death" by Americans pales with the numbers tortured for prolonged periods by Saddam and his henchmen, and the kidnappers that exist today. Hmmm, I would rather have 50 bibles cut up and flushed than to have one nutball cut my head off with a knife...

What you find "ironic", I find "untrue". To each his own, I guess.
Events with photographs are isolated, not events.

As for the higher standard America is held to, would you have it any other way? Would you like it if these stories came out, and people said, "Oh, well, that's America. What do you expect?" Would you prefer for people to ignore it because they have no reasonable expectation that we would take steps to stop it from happening?

I hold my country to a higher standard than others. As should every citizen of every country.

To you a Koran down the toilet or women's menstrual blood on a face is harmless. Tell that to the many people who died in Afghanistan riots because of harmless actions. Firing all those policemen and soldiers in Iraq was also harmless. Clearly violating the teachings of Sze Tzu (500 BC) are just harmless actions.

So how do you explain the nine dead American soldiers and Marine today because Bremmer did something harmless? The Iraqi insurgency, made possible by and then created by American actions, was just something harmless by Bremmer? Clearly it was just as harmless to 'burn the village to save it'. Clearly those lines not to be crossed, as taught by history, are only arbitrary. We can move them at any time because we are righteous Christian Americans?

It is harmless to change our standards of conduct when convenient. Tell that to today's nine dead American soldiers and Marine. Tell it to so many dead Afghanistan civilians. Tell it to the many Americans who will die due to 'no respect' for another people and their culture.

Harmless. What the White House also called it when they changed standards to authorized torture. At what point do we stop moving this line that separates us from Saddam or Hitler?

It shows once again that they will be the enemy regardless. There will always be something about the US to rally the forces of Islam around because they need that.
The communists and every tin horned dictator have always needed an enemy to focus the attention of their minions away from their own problems and toward the group good, fighting fill in blank.
Christians seem to settle for "evil" or "the devil" when there's no enemy more apparent. :(

Well, at least wealthier. ;)

Tell that to the many people who died in Afghanistan riots because of harmless actions.

Nobody died because a Koran was flushed down a toilet. We don't even know if it really happened. What killed those people was religious extremism.

One can always depend on Christopher Hitchens to explain things

Mark Steyn points out who really started it and why:

It shows once again that we will be the enemy regardless. There will always be something about the rest of the world to rally the forces of fearmongering war profiteers around because they need that.
The Neocon pseudo-patriots and every cuckholded administration have always needed an enemy to focus the attention of their minions away from their own problems and toward the group good, fighting fill in blank.
Every religion in the world seem[s] to settle for "evil" or "the devil" when there's no enemy more apparent. :(

xoB, thank you for letting me use your thoughts as a starting point for my post. With these few edits, I haven't changed the truth of the post at all. Especially the first sentence. It takes two, brotha, it takes two.

Your broad generalizations can be supported by actual incidents. As can my equally broad generalizations. And like all broad generalizations, the broader they are the less precisely they apply. The behavior of the mobs in Afghanistan is criminal. Just that. Well, maybe you can throw in a fig leaf of religious indignation. But if the same behavior was demonstrated by Christians, would you say the same of them? I doubt it.

Islam didn't riot, people did. To tar all of Islam like this based on the actions of a small number of people relative to the the population of believers is misinformed or lazy or deluded and I have never seen evidence of any of those traits in your writing. So must naturally conclude that you've made a mistake, which I wish to correct:

Islam is not the enemy of the US.

Agreed?

Huzzah!:standing ovation: :raucous unending applause:

And so you have avoided the bottom line question. Why do you avoid this question? Throwing the Koran down a toilet is simply another example of harmless - when only an American perspective matters. After all, they are only gooks. Right? Their perspective is completely irrelevant. Korans down the toilet are harmless. FISHing is acceptable. Hanging people from the ceiling with hands tied behind their backs is harmless. Murdering prisoners and then not even doing an investigation is harmless. Torturing prisoners in Guantanamo and Abu Ghriad is harmless.

At what point do we stop moving this line that separates us from Saddam or Hitler? In Vietnam, we never stopped moving that line to justify a massacre of hundreds in My Lai. So acceptable that soldiers who reported the massacre were investigated. Now that you regard a Koran in the toilet as harmless. Now that you regard menstrual blood on the face as harmless. At what point, UT, do you think we should stop moving this line?

The ends justify the means? Good Morning Vietnam ... all over again.