Has our intelligence dropped to zero already?
 

I've seen some stupid things and decisions that made me want to beat someone, but get ahold of this.

This is the link to a news story that will get most people pissed off at the low intelligence of the prosecutors.

This is the country that we are living in. This is the pendulum swinging waaaaaaaaaay to the right. Unreal.

yeah..... pendulum swinging to the right.... and it seems someone cut the string. *watches it bounce away and fall off the table*

Where do I send money for the kid's bail?

Oh, and for a brain transfusion for the people prosecuting him? Is fiction not protected? (not picking a constitutional fight here) It said "zombies" what's that code for? terrorists?

I don't know. Doesn't tell us much about location.... Send money to abunch of places in kentucky and hope that one reaches him....

I'd like to see the writing myself. 18 year olds are capable of lying, you know. Why was he writing a "story for English class" in his personal "journal?" And his own grandparents are the ones who found it and gave it to police, so either they don't know their grandson at all, or they know him better than we do.

Even if you could
 

What could you discern from reading it yourself? What would you look for? You can't incite to riot in a freakin personal journal, other people gotta hear/see it.

**FICTION ALERT** (This means you AG Gonsalez) If I wrote "Zombies will take over the White House" **End Alert**, does my mail automatically get forwarded to Gitmo?

Is he guilty of a f*cking thoughtcrime?!?! Look, I saw Minority Report, I read 1984, and I understand they're also works of fiction. Some folks seem to think it's real though.

God, it's sad, no, tragic to think that we have to PREEMPT every bad thing that might happen. All that Sysiphean task accomplishes is more worry and more jumping at shadows and more conformity and more innocent people persecuted out of fear.

I will not live in fear.

What does it matter that this side or that is responsible for the elimination of our civil liberties. I can hear it now: "I had to burn the Constitution in order to save it".

Lord, help us.

The grandparents, not the government, snooped in the diary. They were motivated by something. We don't know what motivated them, but it's possible they knew this kid well, and knew that he might pull a Columbine. They were worried enough by what they found in the diary to call the police on their own flesh and blood. Most grandparents wouldn't get their grandkids in trouble with the law unless they absolutely had to.

The police read what was in the diary and decided it was bad. The DA agreed. The boy is claiming he is innocent. Is that really a surprise? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

This is why we have trials. The jury can read the journal, listen to the kid, hear from the english teacher, read what the law says, and make a decision.

You are making a decision after only listening to the kid.

I would look and see if it said something like this:

The zombie horde stumbled through the hallways. "Brains... BRAAAAINS!!"

Or instead something like this:

John the Zombie took out his .357 that he'd gotten from his father's closet and began shooting all the students in the face, starting with Stephen, that fucking bully...

If the kid WERE planning to shoot up the school, and found himself being questioned by police because of his vivid written descriptions of it, the first thing that would pop out of his mouth is, "Uh, yeah, that's just fiction, I was just making some stuff up."

It could be a gross misuse of the court system, or it could be that the kid's a liar. Until I get to read the stuff he wrote, I'm not going to declare one way or the other the pendulum's position in its arc.

I'll just add this to my list of reasons to move to another country.

Current situation in my office:

Person A wrote a report. Person B asked “Can I see your report?” Person A said, “Yes, but then I’d have to kill you.” Person B writes a letter to the head office saying he/she was the victim of a “terrorist threat”. Person A is waiting for his/her day in court to tell Person B what a friggin’ ass-hat he/she is.

I am surrounded by such idiots! What is this world coming to?!

I'm hot about more that just this kid's predicament
 

Hey, if my son snatches his sister’s diary without her permission and reads it, that’s snooping. If he then shows the diary to his brother, then they’re BOTH snooping. No permission=snooping. Even an 18 year old in Kentucky has a right to be secure in his effects. 4th amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches…

I'd buy that for a dollar.

Again, reasonable on it’s face, but the serious crisis here is why we are even having this discussion! More and more instances like this, where we are presented with a “potential” crime, places our national standard of innocent until proven guilty UNDER SIEGE.

No bulwark can resist constant pounding without being eroded. If our ideals are important, they must be protected. This constant drumbeat of criminal, terrorist, fear, fear, fear creates what it shouts about—literally. I know there was a time in our past when is was not a felony to write anything in a journal. But now, apparently those days are gone. Pound, pound, pound, that is the sound of your freedoms being ground away, in the name of preserving them. Where is the drumbeat in the name of civil liberties? Drowned out and shouted down, and we all are the poorer for it.

Get up, stand up,
Don’t give up the fight.

No, I am not. This is not true. I am making some decisions after listening to what was reported, and the kid has something to say in the story and so does the law. For example:

”Even so, police say the nature of the story makes it a felony.”

Hel-lo. The nature of a story makes it a felony?! This is not what I signed up for—scandalous. It’s a felony to write about stuff in my journal?!

From 1984:
Thoughtcrime - see crimethink
crimethink - To even consider any thought not in line with the principles of Ingsoc. Doubting any of the principles of Ingsoc. All crimes begin with a thought. So, if you control thought, you can control crime. "Thoughtcrime is death. Thoughtcrime does not entail death, Thoughtcrime is death.... The essential crime that contains all others in itself.
Ingsoc - English Socialism. (feel free to substitute American Democracy in this thread)

Is this what we want to support? Striving to control thought in a doomed effort to control crime? Please clarify your position.

Word do not equal actions
 

Well, I guess that specifics like names in your example would be scary, but the young man says no:

"It didn't mention nobody who lives in Clark County, didn't mention (George Rogers Clark High School), didn't mention no principal or cops, nothing,"

Certainly, something like this is easy enough to check. I guess we’ll see, certainly a jury will see. Maybe the kid is really a dumbf*ck and he wrote like you described and then just lied about it to the reporter. 50-50, right? But the kid’s statement here regarding the content of what was written is much more easily verified than the state’s position:

"Investigators say they discovered materials at Poole's home that outline possible acts of violence aimed at students, teachers, and police."

My biggest beef here is that intent=crime. I cannot fully articulate why or how badly that offends me.

For the record, in my book, pre-emptive war is all f*cked up too.

The word is 'swung'. Remember after the Madrid bombing? The FBI arrested a lawyer in Oregon and held him for (if I remember) 9 months in jail. Why? The Spanish police found a partial fingerprint that matched the lawyer's fingerprints. When the FBI (using principles in the Patriot Act) searched his house, they found Spanish messages. They arrested the lawyer on this other 'just as flimsy' evidence.

The FBI is so poorly run internally that it still takes a long time to translate that Spanish. It was his kid's Spanish homework.

How did we solve the problem? How many FBI agents were on the verge of discovered the 11 September attack if not stopped by their supervisors? At least four teams that we know of. So how do we fix this management defect? We made another layer of bureaucracy called Fatherland Security and passed all kinds of laws to give that Fatherland Security the right to violate basic American rights. At what point do we go after the only reasons for security failures - incompetent top management? To an administration dominated by the principles taught in B-schools, management is never the problem. Blame the terrorists, weak laws, people who advocate human rights, money shortages, a military too small, nuclear armed missiles, a universal hatred of Americans ... anything except the incompetent top management that made these problems possible.

Jail a lawyer for nine months because his son was writing secret terrorist messages in Spanish. Same reasons to justify torture of what we now know were innocent people in Guantanamo Bay, Iraq, and Afghanistan - by the administration. This is the 'we fear everything' mentality that has even recreated something from 30+ years ago - the Ugly American.

It's called intolerance - like we have not seen since the 1960s. Intolerance avocated by concepts such as racism and religious extremism. Intolerance of barbers murdered because they shave Iraqi beards in violate of Sharia law. Intolerance of science that teaches scientific principles in direct contradiction to Biblical parables (ie Dover PA):
Origin of Life Debate Key Issue For School Board Candidates

Intolerance starts with those who are most intolerant - the extremist religious who would force their religious beliefs on all others and who would even worry about silly wardrobe malfunctions as if it required an anti-ballistic missile defense system (another idea based on no science and justified by religious fever).

Once we start the disease of intolerance, then it only expands into every aspect of society. So intolerant that even a kid's Spanish homework becomes messages for terrorism. This is what happens when the most intolerant put their people into positions of power. Intolerance then spreads like a plague. Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition.

The man makes a good point. Several actually.

You know what, there's just one thing that bugs me,
 

I http://www.cellar.org/images/smilies/meanface.gif intolerance!

how intolerant of you BigV

Let us not forget the other edge of the sword.

The multi-culties are intolerant of intolerance. They insist on cultural equality and the recognition of the specialness of every person everywhere.

Unless you don't agree with them.

0050217_BBEPhiladelphia
Boeing Black Employees Association affinity group to start in Philadelphia

Boeing Philadelphia employees interested in forming a local chapter of the Boeing Black Employees Association (BBEA) affinity group are asked to contact Donna Irby at 1-3106.

An affinity group is an employee association that meets to participate in common interests. They provide skills development, professional growth, mentoring opportunities and leadership tools to aid in achieving strategic objectives of The Boeing Company, through the Business Strategy, Vision 2016, the Diversity Strategy and the Affirmative Action Plan.

Membership is open to all Boeing employees, all retired employees of The Boeing Company and its subsidiaries, government, customer, contract, vendor personnel assigned full time to support the company without regard to race, color, sex, age, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, gender or gender identity, status as a special disabled or Vietnam era veteran or the presence of a disability.

(February 17-24, 2005)
Content: Philadelphia Communications
Technical: Rotorcraft Web Team

Bet if I tried to start a Caucasian Christian Men’s Association they’d fire me.
Even if I allowed all Boeing employees, all retired employees of The Boeing Company and its subsidiaries, government, customer, contract, vendor personnel assigned full time to support the company without regard to race, color, sex, age, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, gender or gender identity, status as a special disabled or Vietnam era veteran or the presence of a disability to join. They wouldn't tolerate it.:(

Yeah, but are you going to go join the Boeing Black Employees Affinity Group?

My coworkers decided the other night that they wanted to form An Average White Guys Club. I told them that although I suspected they would not be permitted to do so, I would support them wholeheartedly, and that they were welcome to exclude me, as I am an Above-Average White Chick.

I guess we know what the house band would be.

just think about how all of this started.kids who built bombs in their bedrooms ,planned an attack on their school and actually went through with it.wouldn,t you know what your kid was up to?i sure would.the people taking action in this case probably don't even know where their kids are.

Notifying parents is a far cry from locking kids up. No guns or bombs were found. I would like the bar set high for locking up juveniles for something they have written. Even then, it would probably be safer to give them a room to themselves at someplace like Wolf's facility then throw them in with the general population in juvenlie detention.

Let's say something bad happens to the kid while locked up and it is shown that what he wrote was not a 'terrorist threat'. Who do the parents go to? The attitude of the authorities will be 'we went by the book' and 'shit happens'.

By these standards, I doubt Stephen King and George Romero would have survived high school.

edit: Scratch that, it appears that the kid was 18 and is being held in adult detention. That's a lot worse.

Now, if it could be shown that the kid was actively recruiting zombies...

While my son lives in my house, anything and everything is open to search by me or my husband. Period.

As a parent, I wouldn't be going through his room unless I had a reason to. It seems to me that if grandparents found stuff that causes them to be suspicious and go into his journal, and it alarms them to the point they call the cops, and then the cops come and find other stuff that gives them cause to arrest, well then, there has got to be something there.

That being said, when I'm paying rent/mortgage/whatever, I have the right to know exactly what is being brought into and carried out in MY house (in other words, to be secure in my house, papers and effects.)

If my 18 year old (who is still in school) doesn't want me in his business, he needs to move the hell out and be independant. They prosecute parents for the crimes of the kids nowadays. If I'm responsible for his actions, I'm going to be all up in his business. If he don't like it, he's 18, he can get the hell out.

This new tw is awesome!

By these standards, I wouldn't have survived high school.

It was rather in vogue in my school to write elaborate short stories regarding hostile takeovers of the school. Weaponry and James Bond like devices were common components.

Much like my approach to video games where the object is to shoot people in the head, I did this so I didn't HAVE to.

My final project in a class called "anatomy of a revolution" was one of these stories, using the school as a setting, real staff members and fellow students as characters, that detailed a revolutionary takeover of the school, following the pattern described by Crane Brinton in the book we used as a text.

I graduated with honors, rather than a body count.

A court recently ruled that parents couldn't eavesdrop on their kid's phone conversations, didn't they? What I forget is if this was the Supremes or a Circuit Court.

(actually the legal issue involved was that information gathered in this way could not be used in criminal prosecutions, but the effect is the same).

So, every time the cops arrest it's because they have something that proves guilt? In other words, cops never arrest innocent people? That is an incredibly naive statement.

According to the article, there was no 'other stuff'. No bombs, gunpowder, rifles, hand grenades, etc. Just a story.

I'm hoping the ACLU is going to look into this. By the definitions of the law as it was reported, any screenwriter could be arrested for writing an action movie based in a high school.

I don't care what they write, it's not a threat until it's sent or delivered to someone. Handing it in to a teacher as a writing assignment doesn't count either.
If someone is freaked by a kids writings then talk to them, ask pointed questions if necessary to clear the air. But locking them up or throwing them out of school for "just in case", clearly sends the wrong message. :(

Hey xoB, OC, all, what is your read on this next escalation in the preemptive war on terror? I cannot find the original CNN link, but there are plenteous similar repetitions of this story, enough to give me confidence that it has some veracity. Your comments, please.

Boys arrested for stick figure drawings

Wednesday, January 26, 2005 Posted: 7:29 AM EST (1229 GMT) Wednesday, January 26, 2005 Posted: 7:29 AM EST (1229 GMT)


OCALA, Florida (AP) -- Two boys were arrested for making pencil-and-crayon stick figure drawings depicting a 10-year-old classmate being stabbed and hung, police said. The children, charged with a felony, were taken from school in handcuffs.

The 9- and 10-year-old boys were arrested Monday and charged with making a written threat to kill or harm another person. They were also suspended from school.

One drawing showed the two boys standing on either side of the other boy and "holding knives pointed through" his body, according to a police report. The figures were identified by written names or initials.

Another drawing showed a stick figure hanging, tears falling from his eyes, with two other stick figures standing below him. Other pieces of scrap paper listed misspelled profanities and the initials of the boy who was allegedly threatened.

The boys' parents said they thought the children should be punished by the school and families, not the legal system.

Things are only going to get much worse before they get better.

From Fox News, April 7, 2005:

These damn articles are so short on the details. This is the first I've heard that he was trying to recruit others. I wish I knew the details around that. Was he just writing about his hopes of recruiting others or did he actually approach others and speak to them about his plot to murder fellow students? Huge difference.

With the lack of details here, I think it's right to err on the side of the grandparents who turned him in. They know him best, and they turned him in to the cops. They must have had a good reason.

This is from Fox "We make Pravda look accurate" News. Anyway, it's not illegal to fantasize about killing everyone in school, nor even to write about it. Ask Joss Whedon...

Of course not, silly. Just the average has. :haha:

It's back where it was. At least it looks that way. They re-normed the test.

Video captures police handcuffing 5-year-old girl
 

So, see, now our FEAR of 5 year old kindergarten girls has escalated to the level of CALLING THE F*CKING COPS AND HAVING HER HANDCUFFED????

yeah. somebody's intelligence is zero, fuckin A.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ne...nG=Search+News

http://www.wpbfnews.com/news/4407473/detail.html

(sorry AP--whole story with credit)

Video Captures Police Handcuffing 5-Year-Old Girl

POSTED: 3:12 pm EDT April 22, 2005
UPDATED: 5:44 pm EDT April 22, 2005

ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. -- An attorney says he plans legal action against St. Petersburg police officers who handcuffed an unruly 5-year-old girl after she acted up in her kindergarten class.

Girl Handcuffed By Police

Three police officers handcuffed a 5-year-old girl after she acted out in her kindergarten class.

A video camera was rolling March 14 as part of a classroom self-improvement exercise. The camera captured images of the girl tearing papers off a bulletin board, climbing on a table and punching an assistant principal before police were called to Fairmount Park Elementary.

Then it shows the child appearing to calm down before three officers approach, pin her arms behind her back and put on handcuffs as she screamed, "No!"

Largo lawyer John Trevena let the news media see the tape this week after he got it from police.

The attorney said it's incomprehensible that the police officers would bend a child over a table and forcibly handcuff her.

Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Ok, I had a couple of deep breaths, kicked the cat, really, I'm fine.

Question: Where are the adults in this situation? I've been around my share of childhood tantrums. Hell, I've BEEN the child in those tantrums. I'm just askin, why do we need to call the cops and have the little girl put in handcuffs? *the urge to shout is building strongly again*******

Why? Why is force our only answer? Hey, did you always get what you deserved, from the powers that be? Maybe you got more than what you deserved, like this little girl's getting in spades. That is fucked up in every possible way..

What will the officer say? She was a physical threat to me? She was a danger to others in the area? It was for her own protection?

Goddammit. I gotta sign off now. I'm gonna blow.

Oh my God.

Look, I know that a webpoll is worth only 10% of what you paid for it, but WTF?????

At least they didn't tazer her. :shocking:

Anyone see the poor under feed? laywer?

Here's the video
 

Here is a link to the classroom where the tantrum started and here is a link to the assistant principal's office where she was arrested.

It appears that they already cleared the classroom when the incident started. I'm not a professional, but something appears to me to be wrong with the girl. This seemed to me to go beyond simple 'bad behavior'.

If you listen, when the cops show up, he says,

"Do you remember me? I'm the one your mom told to put handcuffs on you."

And they did.

I think that teacher needs a raise. And I think Jyeesha (or however you spell it) is a special ed student.

Amazing. I agree that the teacher needs a raise.

I think the school district needs to look over it's behavioral control policy.

From the scene in the classroom I started to gather that the teacher was NOT allowed to touch the kid. This was confirmed by some of the commentary during the scene in the principal's office. I expect that since they have her on video tape grabbing the kid, even though it was to protect her, she'll get some kind of official reprimand somewhere along the line.

I would have had the little beast in a baskethold before she could spit. Heck, I do that to full grown out of control nuts when necessary. Kids are a piece of cake, although they do tend to be more squirmy.

And yes, I have had to do this with kids. Usually not that young, though.

NO. The incident must have started when the class was full, and the two video clips I saw were both in the vice principal's office. The substitue/teacher in training couldn't handle the situation with the little girl, she was sent to the vice principal's office.

Bad behavior? Yes. But the girl is FIVE YEARS OLD. Who is the adult here? When you send your child to kindergarten, don't you expect the teachers and the administrators (or the nurse or the librarian or the gym teacher or the school secretary or somebody) to have had some experience with little kids? How to soothe a kid that's having a tantrum?

I have a young child. I asked him how he felt when he was sent to the principal's office. His answer: scared. That sounds about right. Try to think of it from the five year old's point of view. You have no power. Things don't go your way. Mommy's gonna be mad. Hell yeah you're scared.

Now that bad behavior, that acting out, that "hitting" the principal, that's not good. It's not good for the girl, the adults, or anyone else around. But how can that behavior stop? By definition, the kid's lost control at that moment. Who does the responsibility for control fall to then. Come on, think. I bet you can get this one right. Yeah. The adult.

Remember when your young'uns were colicky, inconsolable? Hey, some power struggle over something in which you were completely right and the kiddie was completely wrong. Like this classroom situation. When you and child had this conflict, how did you settle it? How would you de-escalate the situation? Could you try distraction? Persuasion? Calming words? When the kid's scared, you know they're not at their most malleable or reasonable. How do you get them to do what you want? You have to soothe the fears, duh. I didn't see much of that in these two videos.

For that I fault the adults.

Wrong.

The male cop says to the vice principal:

"I see you took my advice."

The camera is on Jaieesha, she is sitting quietly at the table. The male cop says to her:

"Jaieesha. You have to calm down and you have to do it right now. Ok? Remember me? I'm the one you told your mom put the handcuffs on you. Aight."

Yep. And leg restraints (shackles). And she was put in the back of the squad car.

Really? Explain these wild statements. I love a good fantasy story.

I am amazed that you would consider rewarding such incompetence with a raise. Did she do her job? Did she control the situation? Shit. Did she teach anybody anything? A raise?! phbtbbtbbtbtbt.
Damn straight. Because if the existing policy is to CALL THE POLICE AND HAVE THEM ARREST, HANDCUFF AND SHACKLE FIVE YEAR OLD GIRLS who have tantrums, the policy, and I'm being generous here, is b-r-o-k-e-n.

Hey OC, your sig talks about personal responsibility.

"Up to a point a man's life is shaped by environment, heredity, and movements and changes in the world about him. Then there comes a time when it lies within his grasp to shape the clay of his life into the sort of thing he wishes to be. Only the weak blame parents, their race, their times, lack of good fortune, or the quirks of fate. Everyone has it within his power to say, 'This I am today, that I will be tomorrow' "
- Louis L'Amour

Would you say that that point in a person's life when the dominant shaping forces change from environmental factors to internal factors is near five years old? Maybe teenagers? Fully growed adults, though, for sure, right? But all parties surrender their self responsibility. And of all them, only the little girl can be excused. Actually, the cops don't shirk their responsibility. But their reaction is utterly over the top. Did you see that part where the girl's sitting at the table and the cop tells her to settle down and do it right now? Ok, achieved. Where's the reason to cuff her?

*crickets chirping* *sound of pin dropping* *deafening silence*

Right. I thought so. There is no reason, no good reasonable reason.

But the spokesman for the police department , Bill Profit, agrees with you:

Bill Profit:
"There is no minimum age for criminal culpability."

News flash! A five year old is NOT criminally culpable for a tantrum in class like this. He's toeing the company line, sure, but I want people in these positions, and in postions like the officers, to use judgement, not just dogma.

Remember that 911 call from the moron in the drive through? That dispatcher, SHE exercised some adult judgement to not dispatch the cops to enforce a cheeseburger. Her humor and intelligence prevail. Why was that absent here?

This is wrong wrong wrong. When there's a problem with my kid in class, he may have to go to the principal's office. This little girl did. When my kid's having a problem at school, call me. The school did. When my kid's freakin out, calm him down. There were a couple of false starts here, but not sustained.

But when my five year old child is in this kind of awful situation, do not call the cops. Don't arrest him. Don't handcuff him. Don't shackle him. Don't park him in the back of the squad car. Don't do these things and expect to have your job on the following Monday, because if you do, your galactic fucking incompetence endangers ALL the children you're around. You're a failure and a menace. Get out of my face and get out of my school

I hate to even post, but when I was in school. One trip to office would sufice, because you got your butt busted + again when you got home.:smack:

I hold the right to reserve judgement till more is known about this case. As of now I have only read the article that was posted which leaves many questions:

1. Why was the kid living with his grandparents? What happened to his parents?
2. Had he been acting suspicious, had they caught him with drugs, was he taking antidepresents or some perscribed drug for emotional problems.
3. What is this kid's personality like? Is he a loner that gets depressed alot? Are the other kids at school picking on him and putting him down and that's why wrote what he did in his diary?

These are things only a police profiler or phsychiatrist can answer and hopefully they will come out in court. We can't pass judgement without all the facts. The police can search and seizure without a warrent if they can prove in a court of law that they had probable doubt that a situation existed. After all is said and done can we afford to take any more risks with our kids lives. If your a parent think if your childs death could have been prevented by another parent or gaurdian actually taking intrest in thier childs well fare instead of letting them watch TV and play video games on the internet with out knowing what in the hell thier kid is actually up to but expecting the media and internet to babysit for them.

Hold the phone, Big. Just stop for a second, and take a deep breath from your indignace for a moment.

The video clips you linked were (1) classroom and (2) principals office. They are clearly marked as such.

You cannot tell if that classroom is a special ed classroom or a regular classroom. You cannot tell that from the video nor from the commentary. You don't know if she's special needs or not. If she isn't, she needs to be.

Perhaps that was her regular teacher, (I've seen no indication in the news story it was a sub or teacher in training) and Jaieesha lost it. Let me point out this one teeny little fact.

As a teacher, YOU CANNOT TOUCH THESE CHILDREN. You can't. That's one reason why the video tape was moved from the classroom to the principals office. Because they wanted proof (you can hear them discussing it on the tape) that the teacher did not touch the child, other than removing her from the table, which is a dangerous situation for the child. The teacher keeps saying "You cannot touch me" while Jaieesha is hitting her.

The teacher was, and under strict guidelines CANNOT TOUCH THAT CHILD.

Yes, but.. we know the cops have seen little 5 year old Jaieesha before because she remembers the cops!! We know the mother had been called 45 minutes prior to the arrival of the cops. We know the mother wasn't there. It's obvious that Jaieesha has issues that go beyond a normal child's "tantrum".

I bet your son, being raised by a responsible (and normally level-headed) parent, would have a tantrum, get sent home, get disciplined, and that would be it. This child had a tantrum OVER AN HOUR LONG. That is NOT a normal "tantrum". That's a special needs child that needs help that a school cannot provide.

I agree 100%, but lets keep in mind our school's rule. THEY CANNOT TOUCH THE CHILD. They cannot restrain the child. They cannot put her in a lock or a hold, or anything else, because they are the school, and if they do, it spells LAWSUIT for the school district. I promise you. No district wants a lawsuit, so they have very very strict guidelines. Ask your son's school. They won't touch him either. They will call you and keep him from hurting himself and others as much as possible WITHOUT touching him.

When it's MY CHILD, I would either (a) restrain or (b) beat the snot out of him until he figures out that isn't going to fly with me. The school can't do EITHER, Big. They just CAN'T.

As a teacher, I'd do just what the teachers in the video did. By the time we saw Jaieesha in the classroom, it was too late. The cajoling and the persuation had already happened, and she was out of control. And she was loving her power. Let's review: if it's a regular classroom (which I sincerely doubt) she's managed to disrupt it enough to clear it out. She's got all eyes on her, she has multiple teachers there, she's getting alot of attention.

Later, in the principles office, she was tearing shit off the walls for Christ's sake. The teacher kept telling her no, using hand signals (another reason I think this was special needs...they are trained to use gestures as reinforcement) and she was playing a game with ripping the pictures off the wall. Darting, faking, she was having a damn good time.

Once a child reaches the point where they know they aren't going to be punished at school, they will act up in school. And it doesn't appear the threat of her mother was too bad, either....and was followed up with mom not showing up for over 45 minutes. Yeah. Great parenting.

I've listened again and I don't hear it that way.

Come on, Big, don't be like that.

Damn straight. and a big ass one, too. She followed district and school policies and showed a patience and tolerance for that bullshit far better than *I* would have. She did her job AND more.


To be continued:

Big.... this was NOT a normal tantrum for a 5 year old child. Dude. Over an HOUR?? This was not a "tantrum". This was Jaieesha showing the if she ISN'T in a special needs classroom, she NEEDS to be. I don't want my 5-year old child in the classroom with her, because she's obviously got issues with control and violence. She's been involved with the police before, this is "acting out", not "tantrum". This is NOT normal 5 year old behavior, even in a "tantrum" situation.

All you're seeing is the big bad policemen handcuffing her. On the tape, she doesn't go sit in the corner until she hears that the cops have shown up. THEN she goes and sits down (prolly tired as hell) and tries to look all innocent. It appears she respects the police officers and NO ONE ELSE.

Perhaps (and keep in mind we don't have the history of this situation, thanks to the attorney who posted the video but gave up no prior history of the school, her behavior or whatever..) this is the only attention she gets. She freaks until the cops show up, then it's all good.

I would say dominant forces are between birth and 5-ish. And this little girl OBVIOUSLY has issues. Whether it's a physical problem (ADHD, bipolar, aspergers) or just a behavioral one (parents don't discipline, don't care, don't wanna care) this child has a very long, hard road ahead of her.

I think the teachers and administrators did their job. They could not control the child, and so called the police to control the child. Teachers are not babysitters. They are educators. When you can't touch a child, or restrain them, calling the police is your only opotion. Why don't you understand that??

I don't think some of this is her fault, but I don't think this behavior is excused. This was willfull behavior. She was fully aware this was not correct behavior. And didn't care.

I want to be clear. I think handcuffing her *at that point* was necessary because they were going to take her away to the police station, and if *I* was a cop, I would not want a violent 5 year old in the back seat of my squad car unrestrained. She could be flailing around back there and hurt herself. Better to handcuff her in the building and put her in the car than try to handcuff in the car.

You're speaking from the standpoint of an emotional parent. Step back and look at the administrators and the police pov. It makes sense.

Well, yeah, I don't think there was criminal activity here. I think that's a dumb statement.

I agree with you here.

Yes, the school did just right. They tried to calm. But keep the rule in mind here. THEY CANNOT TOUCH YOUR CHILD. All they can use is words, and as we saw, that did fuckall. They called the parent. Parent never showed, even after 45 minutes. So they took the next step and called the police. Absolutely right.

What else are they going to do? The parent didn't show. After 45 minutes. Hello?? What is the school supposed to do? Spend all day dealing with this child's behavior and send them home on the bus? I don't think so. The parent here is the one who could have avoided this situation. Hey, note to Jaieesha's mom: when the school calls and tells you your child is having a meltdown and is in the principals office, GO GET THE CHILD.

If I was the school, and the mom didn't show up in 45 minutes, hell yeah, my next step is the cops.

Once the cops arrived, the school was done with the situation. Once the cops arrived, it was the cops responsible for the situation. The teachers and administrators don't make the call if she's handcuffed or arrested. The cops do.

Wrong wrong wrong. You have thought out the situation, followed district and school policy, and you'll do it again like that last time.

Call your kid's school. Ask them what their policy is.

I've gotta pick up a speed reading course. This all started out with a teenage kid writing about killing his classmates then changed in a second to be about the 5 year old girl who got handcuffed. It all boils down to the parents. I was beaten with a belt and a switch( a small young sapling reed or stick for non southerners). These kids today are give time outs. They are told they can't be disciplined by spankings(by the way in my day corpral punishment was in school and we'd rather get spanked by the principal than have to go home and have our parents spank us). Time outs have become the biggest BS in history. How can you discipline a child by telling them to go to thier room when they have access to cable TV, video games and the internet. We should be making them have time out on the front stoop or the back yard. Make them plant a tree or some flowers. This go to your room crap is for the birds. I guess after my long "tantrum" I should come to my point. The parents are what make or break these kids. Relying on others to raise our children and discipline them and just think we can sit back and feed and cloth them with out molding them into model citizens who respect not just those with badges but all adults. Have you actually been into a highschooll lately the freshman are bullying the Seniors....when the hell did this come about. Seniors used to bully freshman now it seems the freshman are too scared that the same laws that we say protect our kids will actually make them be the bad guys now for fighting back. This PC society has weakened the infostructure of what America was founded on. How many kids today even know what the American Constitution is let alone know where it is or what's written in it? Ok that's enough of my "soap box" for now.

What I don't get is why she wasn't treated as a behavioral emergency, and taken to the nearest psych hospital.

"Go Wolf." this seems to be the heart of problem. Call your kid's school. Ask them what their policy is.

Maybe a little "cool hand luke" is needed at home?

That's how it is around here.

That was a different time, when neighbors knew each other, and when neighbors could beat your ass when they saw you doing stupid shit and then take you home to your mama and then SHE'D beat your ass, too, for making the neighbor take the time out of her day to discipline you.

My 17 year old is too big to beat now, so I restrict him from the computer and the phone and the radio. That didn't used to work, because he didn't care and would go to sleep for the day. Now that he's got a girlfriend, he gets pissed. It's punishment now. (evil laugh)

My 12 year old still gets the time outs in the corner of the living room, not his room where he can go play...he sits there, back to the TV. He's not allowed to speak unless he raises his hand. For him, that's punishment enough, unless he REALLY messes up, then he gets a 3 swat beating. He goes through cycles...he'll gradually increase the messup ratio until the beating, then he'll be fine for a few more months, then another beating....

All I have to do with the 8 year old is look at her mad and yell and send her to her room and she's a mess.

Amen! Teachers are not babysitters. They are educators.

I know that the 8 year old is having trouble at school, because he needs a different classroom setting than "regular" ed, but the schools only alternative is special ed, which is the severely handicapped or severe behavioral disorders like Jaieesha (and worse). That would be worse than regular, so he's in regular. Still not what he needs, but the only other option is homeschooling, which I can't afford to do. This lifetime.

I'm not quite sure where that came from, but YEAH!!

;) Welcome to the cellar, by the way. UNC!

I agree, BigV, that it was unreasonable for the girl to be handcuffed.

Unfortunately, due to our lawsuit happy country most, if not all, reasonable options are closed. Unless the girl is mentally handicapped, I suspect a timeout would have settled her down. But what do you do if the child refuses the timeout? You can't spank her. In some places you can't even touch her.

The fact that the girl had the temper tantrum in the first place indicates to me that she is not disciplined at home. So what do you do when parents won't discipline their children, and teachers can't?

For christs sake! I haven't read the whole thread so I apologise now if any of this is out of context, but "time out"?? This notion of punishment is cruel, ineffective and gives kids completely the wrong idea. If I did something my parents didn't like and I was made to stand in the corner of a room I would think them ridiculous, not listen to what they have to say. Bear in mind the kid-in-need-of-discipline obviously didn't consider his actions to be wrong, or he wouldn't have done it. Parents need to instill a proper sense of right, wrong and rationality in kids so they can UNDERSTAND why they mustn't do something, then they won't do it again! If they don't understand, they'll keep doing it. If they do understand and still keep doing it, there's no hope, give up, and let them ruin their lives. They'll either remain so until they die, or hit a sudden realisation at some point causing them to take responsibility for their actions.

It's a difficult subject I know but parents acting stupidly by reacting or making them do stupid things will not help a child to think of them as a trustworthy authority on life, just another 'silly adult'.

To be quite frank, if one does not possess the ability to be rational and get it right (and thus effective in their discipline), they shouldn't be having children.

Just to add that I'm all in favour of a sharp wrap (not beating) at younger ages to stun an irrepresible child and show them who's boss.

I'm glad this is coming out into the open. Because we've completely taken away any power from authority figures in school, the kids are running the place. They learn by their 3rd week in class that the adults in the building are terrified to do anything to them for fear of lawsuits. Unless, of course, it's a hot-button issue like drugs, in which case a kid with a Flintstone vitamin can be locked away for life.

This little girl knew she owned the teacher, and had no reason to stop misbehaving until she just tired out. Of course, if the teacher had swatted that little butt a couple times in the early part of the incident, the video would only have been 20 seconds long. And the teacher would go to jail for abuse. Of course, the child would know that it's unacceptable to throw a screaming fit, but hysterical school boards and anti-discipline advocates translate that as, "teaching her that violence is the answer."

The cops are the only recourse these poor teachers have when "time-out" fails to work. At last count, I believe it fails 100% of the time.

I'm as angry as BigV is, but I'm angry at a system that is less concerned about children than it is about lawsuits from special interest groups.


Edit: just read the first bleatings about how badly the child was "damaged" by having police put handcuffs on her when she was sitting so sweetly at the table, not hurting anyone. :doh: if she continues to act like that without being disciplined, she better get used to the sensation of cold metal on the wrists.

Now you are just pulling shit out of your ass.

The only thing a child learns from being hit is that "might makes right."

My children have never been spanked or hit in any way, and they don't act like this. My kids know what is expected of them, they know what our family values are, we strive to enforce rules as consisitently as we can, because that's the key. There are lots of ways to punish a child without getting physical. Taking away privileges is the best way I've found. My daughter, who is the same age as the kid in this video was one of a handful of students recognized in her school as a "peacemaker," so I'm not just a proud parent speaking with bias. She's an extremely well behaved kid who has never been spanked once, and never will be.

True discipline is a hell of a lot more than hitting a kid, and hitting is totally unnecessary. In fact, I would say (biased view coming) that people who hit their kids are too lazy to actually discipline them correctly and effectively. The hitting feels like you are being "tough" but doesn't actually convey any useful information to the kid. In fact, I think hitting probably does more harm than good in most cases.

I don't know the details of this case, but I think Wolf may be on to something that the child is a special needs kid.

P.S. If any teacher laid a hand on my kids, they would feel what it is like to be hit themselves.

"Time Out" only works for children who have a conscience.