1/26/2005: Hindu swastika
 

http://cellar.org/2004/hinduswastika.jpg

According to Hindu mythology, Swastika is the sign of prosperity. It wasn't their fault that it came to represent Nazism and thus a kind of evil. And so Hindus have launched a campaign to reclaim the swastika from its Nazi past and reinstate the 5,000-year-old emblem as a symbol of good luck.

Marketing is important, even to religions and schools of thought. But in this case they have a pretty difficult way to go. I'm not sure I could be convinced that this is a symbol of luck and/or prosperity. I don't mind if the Hindus use it differently, but I don't expect them to change our culture's notion of what it is.

All of which is very strange, when you think about it; it's just a symbol, just a mark, just a set of lines. Or is it?

I remember seeing swastikas in the Southwest in rock paintings by the Navahos? or another native american tribe. I thought some damn punk kids had vandalized the place, but found out later I was wrong.

Who named it the "Swastika?" Is that the original name or is that what the Nazi's named it??

Apparently they hired some British royalty to help their marketing effort...

(Pronunciation Key)swas·ti·ka Listen: [ swst-k ]
n.
An ancient cosmic or religious symbol formed by a Greek cross with the ends of the arms bent at right angles in either a clockwise or a counterclockwise direction.
Such a symbol with a clockwise bend to the arms, used as the emblem of the Nazi party and of the German state under Adolf Hitler, officially adopted in 1935.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Sanskrit svastika, sign of good luck, swastika, from svasti, well-being; see (e)su- in Indo-European roots.] :)

But did the Nazis first call that symbol a swastika, or were the Hindus already calling it that?

I don't think it's that strange, since just about everything in our culture is one symbol or another. Even the physical objects we surround ourselves do double duty as symbols (cars, clothes). And symbols have all the power we assign to them. The collective power of social investment in a symbol is what gives it its meaning.

This particular symbol is about as powerful as a symbol gets, not just because of what it stands for, but also for the sheer number of people on this planet that know the symbol. It truly transcends the boundary of any one culture. Which is why this effort by the Hindus is not just insensitive to the rest of the world, but doomed to failure. It's not their symbol anymore.

And then, of course, some may be familiar with the picture of the Edmonton Swastikas, a Canadian girls' hockey team from 1916...

<IMG SRC="http://www.trichotomy.ca/images/edmontonswastikas.jpg" />

Why is it insensitive for a group to try to reclaim their religious emblem of peace and prosperity from a group that turned it into a secular emblem of hate and persecution?

But the whole point is that they are trying to change the world's idea of what the symbol is. It may be hard, but it isn't impossible.

Reminds me of U2 saying on Rattle and Hum that they were stealing "Helter Skelter" back from Manson, who stole it from the Beatles.

When I was a kid in the 70's we would "xerox" things at the library if we needed them for a book report. Now I "photocopy" things at work. I never made a consious effort to switch the words I use to describe that action. It was a successful campaign by Xerox, adopted by much of society, that got me to think differently.

If Xerox can get me to change my language, maybe these guys can get me to think about that symbol differently.

There was a lot of resentment against the Finns during and after World War II when pictures were seen of swastikas painted on aircraft:

http://www.swastika-info.com/en/arti...061679609.html

(Any plane buffs out there? Is that a Brewster Buffalo? I know the US sent a few over to aid the Finns vs the Russians).

Supposedly, the Nazis didhelp the Finns when they were invaded by Russia, but the Finns were using swastikas long before the Nazis came to power.

(edited to add this quote)
Because it's no longer a symbol of peace and well-being. How do you think Jews feel about that picture? People are still very sensitive to that symbol, as witnessed lately with the whole Prince Harry debacle.

Look, I'm no political-correctness policeman, but I think it's important to keep that symbol as it is as a reminder of what happened. It'd be a shame if its meaning got diluted, and besides, how confusing would it be if some part of the world associated it with peace and well-being, and another part of the world associated it with the most famous genocide in human history? Talk about your mixed messages.

But you see, that's where you're wrong. It never stopped being a symbol of peace and well-being. It now has two meanings.

Quite honestly that is their problem, not the problem of the millions of hindus around the world who feel quite differently about it.

Please don't use the royals as an example for anything, it can only hurt your credibility. ;)

But by wanting to squash the feelings of a people who have been using that symbol for longer than a number of the countries in this world have existed, just because someone is offended by it, then you are exactly that.

It's not diluting something to return it to the 5000 +/- meaning it has carried. Quite the opposite I believe.

And as to mixed messages, it's not sending a mixed message. A hindu walking around with a swastika around his neck as a talisman is only doing it for himself.

I don't think this issue is about whether it can be done (which I doubt), so much as it is about whether it should be done. Your analogy to the symbol of 'xerox' falls a tad short, since few (if any) people have an emotional attachment to the word you use for copying papers.

I have sympathy for those Hindus who feel like they've lost an important cultural symbol, and I understand why they want it back. But it's not theirs anymore. To try and change the meaning of that symbol does a disservice to all those that died in the shadow of the swastika. I'm not Jewish, but I can't imagine too many Jews who would be willing to embrace the swastika as a symbol of peace. The only positive I see in this is that the world is reminded that the symbol had a history before Nazism, but I don't think it's got a future beyond that, nor should it, imo.

Have you at least asked a jew?

Well, as you mentioned, it's probably had 5000 meanings in the past. What's important is, what does that symbol mean now, and to whom? Maybe you're right, that the millions of Hindus still use the swastika as a symbol of peace, even now. I honestly don't know. That would surprise the hell out of me though, if true.

No, I'm objecting not because I'm afraid Jews will be offended by Hindus trying to reclaim this as a symbol of peace, but because to do so dishonors those who have died at the hands of a man wearing a swastika.

Actually, I'm objecting precisely because I want people to continue to be offended by the swastika. I want it to stand as a reminder of what we're all capable of if we allow ourselves, like the German people did, to become the tools of a tyrannical government in the service of slaughtering 'inferior' people. Genocide is happening right now, somewhere. Let people everywhere know what the swastika means - and it don't mean peace. Sorry, Hindus.

If anything, anyone who supports the Hindus here is more of a PC policeman than I am! You're more concerned with the cultural sensitivities of the Hindu and their symbol, than about a very important lesson in human history. Bottom line is, the swastika is about learning from our history and not condemning ourselves to repeat the mistakes of our past. Let's not lose that lesson just because Hindus say "it was our symbol first!" (besides, would anyone be surprised if they stole it from another culture?)

Give me a break. Can't you find something better than that to pick on?

What about the disservice that was done to the people that revered it? To say "its not theirs anymore" is awfully cavalier. If someone murdered 6M people under the sign of the cross, I don't think it would be fair to ask Christians to "find something else."

I didn't say it was fair that the Nazis appropriated their symbol in their quest for world domination. What I'm saying is that it's more important, now, for the symbol to stand for that episode in human history, than it is to uphold some ambiguous cultural ownership policy about who owned what symbol first. To do so diminishes the power of the lesson that the swastika stands for now.

There is a significant difference between the Nazi swastika and those used by the Asians.

But first, a little tidbit... the swastika, at least in Buddhist theology, is a symbol of purification and the state one reaches when enlightened. The Nazi's took that symbol and warped it into the genocide of all but their white/blonde/blue-eyed/etc super race. Quite unfortunate, really...

The biggest difference is that the Nazi swastika is rotated 45 degrees so that it looks kind of like a diamond. The traditional swastika is more square-like. You'll notice that the Canadian Swastika team uses the traditional alignment for the swastika.

The question serves to determine your qualification to judge who should be offended by it.

If you're not a jew, it's not up to you in my opinion.

It's an educated guess. Is it really that much of a stretch to guess that Jews will be offended by a scene of people making a swastika out of candles and calling it a symbol of peace? I'm not Jewish, and I'm kind of offended by it, for reasons I've outlined in other comments in this thread.

Anyway, whether or not Jews (or anyone else) are offended by that image is only a minor point, as far as I'm concerned.

Some Jews don't eat Bacon, can we get mmmmmbacon to change his user name to someting less treif? How about mmmmmtofu? or mmmmchicken? Or maybe just mmmm?

Why don't we just kowtow to everyone's personal sensitivity and then kill a bunch of palestinians to show how sensitive we are to people's feelings.

Oh yeah, I mean kill them after we just take their land. My bad.

I believe it is true, I've actually heard this before.

So, suppose the Nazis had used a cross, or a star of David, or a flag with stars and stripes as their symbol? Would it be wrong for Christians, Jews, or Americans to keep using that symbol that means so much to them?

I think of it this way. The swastika has been a symbol used by Hindus for thousands of years, and they didn't stop when the Nazis came along. But there's probably a lot of misunderstanding when non-Hindus see this, so my thinking is that they're trying to tell the world, hey, we use this symbol as well, and when we use it, it doesn't mean we want to kill anybody. Just to help clear up any miscommunication.

I think people can understand context more than you give them credit for. When they see a swastika spray-painted on a tombstone in Georgia, they know it means something a lot different than when it's formed from thousands of candles in India. Just like people know the difference when they hear the "N word" in a rap song vs. me walking down the street yelling it at black people.

Do you think that without swastikas, people will forget about the Holocaust?

I'm thinking the Old Capitol museum in Jackson, MS. has a Swastika in the floor. Built around 1839.

Damn Rednecks. :lol:
I'm with axlrosen, don't underestimate the unwashed masses, they understand.
I don't think any of the gang bikers will be covering their swastika tattoos because the Hindus call for it's return as a symbol of good things.

No, it wouldn't be wrong for them to keep using it. I have no problem with Hindus using the swastika for their own culturally relevant reasons. And if all this is is a campaign to clear up misunderstandings, I have no problem with that either, but that's not the way I read it.

In introducing this, Undertoad said:
I agree. My objection is with the Hindus trying to change my notion of what the symbol means, if indeed that's what they're trying to do.

Maybe I haven't made myself clear enough, but my issue here really isn't with how people will react to the Hindus, whether they are offended or whatever. It has to do with the symbol that the swastika has become, and the importance of the history it represents - a history that really transcends any one culture. The story of the Nazi swastika applies as much to Rwanda in the nineties or Manifest Destiny (as we cleared out those pesky Indians). If what the Hindus are trying to do is transform the swastika into a symbol of peace, I object to that because it renders impotent a powerful symbol of the kind of evil that propels common men and women to participate in the mass killing of a stigmatized group of people.

People will forget about the holocaust anyway, as the generations pass. It's human nature. That's why we need reminders. That's why we build museums and memorials, and teach this stuff to our kids, despite the difficulty of the questions they ask. My question to you (and I'm assuming you're not a Hindu) is, if you had to choose, would you want your kids to grow up thinking the swastika is a symbol of peace, or a symbol of genocide?

By the way, thank you for your thoughtful post.

Well, I can't speak for the rest of the Jewish race, but if Hindu's had it for 2000 years before the Nazis used it, they have every right to have it back. You don't see Christians giving up the cross just because the Klan likes to burn them. Intent counts for a lot. If Prince Harry just happened to be wearing a robe with a Swastika on it given to him by the Dali Lama, I might be caught off guard, but would accept the circumstances.

The German Eagle was also a symbol of the Nazi party, yet we Americans use a very similar symbol in our goverment.

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't went out on that extremely shaky limb that Jews might be offended by a gorup of people wanting to change the popular conception of a swastika to a symbol of peace.

Isn't there anyone else here thinking "the swastika as a symbol of peace??? you're kidding, right?"

Yes, I get it. That's their old symbol. It just strikes me as horribly naive that they think the rest of the world will want to adopt their symbol over the much more significant meaning it has taken on since the thousands of years they've used it. Actually, there probably is a sizable portion of the world's population that would adopt it, if simply to make the badness go away. After all, that's what we do, repress repress repress!

Note to magilla
 

Yes, it IS a Brewster Buffalo. Thank you for asking.

Brian, plane buff

Since there's no link, we're debating UT's take on the situation and really aren't sure what the Hindu's intentions are. It maybe they just want to use the swastika without the world recoiling in horror as they did with the prince. We witnessed the reaction to the prince but we don't know what kind of heat the hindus get over it. :confused:

But yes, I know the western world recoils in horror and that's why I made a defensive statement here. :)

Yes, I think we're all actually mostly in agreement here - we just weren't sure what this campaign is trying to do. So I Googled around and found that this campaign actually is in response to the aftermath of Prince Harry's outfit. People are calling for a Europe-wide ban on displaying swastikas, and Hindus are trying to educate people that the symbol has other meanings than Nazism.

"You find it in houses, temples and in portraits of Hindu gods. A swastika is even painted on the head of a baby who's just had his first hair-cutting sacrament."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4188141.stm

That's good work ax, thanks!

Is it ok if I want to fly my Confederate flag?*

*I don't have one, I just want to know if it's ok. I may get one. You never know what you might buy on QVC after a few 7&7's.

I was not aware that the Confederate flag was used for anything prior to its use as the Confederate flag that would provide a rationale for flying it other than support for the Confederacy. Enlighten me.

Some people feel it's a symbol of slavery. Or, support of slavery.

Multiple meanings for graphic symbols based on context is a pretty valuable thing to learn. Its literacy. And thousands of years of peaceful and continued use of this mark by non western groups is good to know. Evil will always find or appropriate symbols to aid in their marketing plans.

I'm sensing an attempt at humor here, but since I don't know if it is poor humor or ignorance we'll try this.

Which one?

Stars and Bars the first governmental flag of the CSA
http://americancivilwar.com/south/conflag/stars_ba.gif

Second governmental flag:
http://americancivilwar.com/south/conflag/confed2.gif

Third governmental flag:
http://americancivilwar.com/south/conflag/confed3.gif

Confederate Battle Flag:
http://americancivilwar.com/south/conflag/confed_b.gif

Confederate Naval Jack: mistaken as the flag of the CSA
http://americancivilwar.com/south/conflag/scross.gif

"Bonnie Blue" the one you never hear about:
http://americancivilwar.com/south/co...nnie_blue.jpeg

Well, TS, I suppose since it's me, it would have to be both, wouldn't it?

I like the Bonnie Blue. Simple, yet magestic.

Lighten up or get laid or something, will you?

Nothing about the Dallas Cowboys is majestic. Except, perhaps, Quitsy Carter's cocaine budget.

Not knowing which flag is meant, unless otherwise specified, is deliberate ignorance.

Obviously I meant the Confederate Battle Flag! Sheesh! The one they fly around here in certain neighborhoods during certain anniversary's of certain battles! The battle of Chickamauga, etc.

NOBODY flies the damn Bonnie Blue for crissakes! Not in Ohio, anyway. You fella's continue to fight the good fight, though. Be deadly serious. It's good for your cardiac health. And chicks really dig it.

Just to be clear, I was saying that Troubleshooter pretending he didn't know which flag you were talking about was deliberate ignorance. Though perhaps I should have called it feigned ignorance. Everyone knows which flag is meant by "Confederate Flag". Bringing up other flags is just an attempt (successful in this case) to deflect a conversation into minutia.

Oh. :blush: I am really trying not to be so sensitive. I think TS either hates me or he has a wicked crush on me coz he's always trying to make me look bad and I've nothing but the UTMOST respect for him and his snarky ways!

And, confidential to TS-the above was a little joke, honey. A joke. ;)

I love minutia. Minutia makes the world go 'round.

I was sort of paralleling the whole point about the differences in the various swastikas with the, rather common, mistake about the flags, no attempt at a threadjack.

I'm what you would call, to borrow a phrase from E. E. Doc Smith, a "high tension thinker. I run wide open throttle most of the time. Sometimes it's a benefit, sometimes it's a pain in the ass. See LJ's anxiety thread...

An idea just occured to me.

Wouldn't banning the swastika be a form of religious persecution or discrimination?

One has to wonder how many temples there are in europe where the symbol is displayed...

And the next paragraph readsWhich is definitely not true. It's the Buddist swastika that faces left.
But thanks for finding that story in that it explains a lot. :thumbsup:

In that light, it all sounds pretty reasonable. Except for the part about a Europe-wide ban on displaying swastikas. File that under Useless Policies to Placate the Public.

I'm not Jewish but I think it would a shame if people didn't associate it with the Natzis' so we'd remember the terrible things they did.

The germans don't call the swastika "swastika" but "Hakenkreuz" which means "cross with hooks" when they think of the nazi-symbol... so they have 2 different names with 2 meanings for the same symbol. This, I think, makes it lot easier to make a difference...

Well actually the holocaust was more linked to the SS so the Jews can use that as a symbol of remembrance/reminder. Considering the number of holocaust museums and memorials around the world it's unlikely anyone will soon forget.
So many peoples used variations of the swastika as important symbols in their culture it wouldn't be fair to to say they suddenly have to abandon it because it offends a few. certainly people are smart enough to take it in context.
Oh...and welcome to the Cellar, Javelin. :)

I think Swastika is the original name. The German name is "Hakenkreuz" (hooked cross).

I'm all for the reclaiming.

I am actually very concerned by the trend of Germany, and Europe in general to outlaw the Swastika, or other signs and symbols of the NSDAP.

Reminds me far to much of Winston Smith carefully correcting the news.

It also makes it easier for the Holocaust deniers to deny things, if their existance is wiped away, piece by piece.

Absolutely. That's why some of the most valuable exhibits in the holocaust museums are the documents that verify a Nazi conspiracy to systematically murder Jews, gypsies, and other 'undesirables'. I notice those are some of the most prominently displayed items.

I really don't understand how people can deny the holocaust happened.

They want to be able to hate Jews without being associated with mass murder, which they can't do without denying the mass murder in the first place.

so all the pictures and testimonies and people who survived and soldiers who liberated are ?? faking? lying? delusional?

See this thread. :alien: They think it's a conspiracy to trick people into sympathising with Jews.

Here is a link of a link of a link...

http://www.crystalinks.com/swastika.html

eradication of ignorance through education
 

Don’t get me wrong , yes the swastika to many people not just Jews , is a reminder of the horror of the holocaust, but its true meaning is not what the majority perceive it to be. In fact it is actually a symbol of peace, creation and oneness with a higher consciousness. Although this has been the general meaning of the symbol for thousands of years in eastern Asia, as well as in parts of Europe, northern Africa and North America, it has become bastardized and distorted by the Nazis, as a symbol of genocide, death, darkness and pure evil.

I don’t want to change people’s views of the swastika I just want to highlight that there is a whole history of the swastika before Nazism. Before people become judgmental about the symbol’s use in today’s religions, they should educate themselves on its true meaning, a meaning that is completely opposite to the warped views of Hitler.

Therefore if one is offended by the use of the symbol for religious purposes one can be able to understand that the swastika symbolizes a completely different meaning than what the tyrannical Nazi party used it to represent.

You're right moksha, most people will upon seeing any variation of a swastika immediately think of the Nazis. But if they think a little before reacting negatively, everybody wins.
Welcome to the Cellar. :thumbsup: