Polyamorous Relationships...
 

I've been married for 12 years.

He's had a few girlfriends, and I've had a few boyfriends... and we're currently in a relationship between three couples. The six of us hang out just about every weekend... it's not just sex - and actually, the sex is only an occasional thing. There's a lot of contact between everyone (except the male-to-male thing, all the guys are straight). There's gaming and food and laughter all around, and all our kids play together... (which is good, cuz they keep each other out of the adults' hair just about completely.)

This is better than our attempt at the triad thing... But I can't fully discount that type of relationship, either. Just didn't work with <i>her</i>.

Anyway... opinions?

Opinion on what? (no sarcasm intended)

Well, do you think it's ridiculous?
Do you think it's wrong?
Do you think that this is the way it should be?
Is our culture too restricting?
Or on the flip side, given the fact that there's a helluva lot of poly people out there, is our culture too lenient?

...yanno. What do you think?

I like the cellarites. You guys are generally intelligent, witty, and thoughtful people.

I like the fact that I have a quasi-open relationship, but i don't like the way I can't talk about any of it at work for fear of offending people, and I haven't got all that wide a circle of friends - i.e. those outside the poly relationship really would feel any conversation about it would be TMI, savvy?.

I think that the less boundaries exist in relationships, the stronger they must be to survive. so, the survival of your relationship with your husband through the various phases of poligamy or poliamorousenessensteinerman attest to the strength of your bond. I'm quite curious about the group dynamic, and wish we had the kind of friends that we were close enough to that that kind of thing could go on.....not for the sex thing so much as the friendship bond that must exist to support that. We have basically one couple friend that we get together with 2 or 3 evenings per month. they'll come over, and we'll all get drunk, so they sleep over....but in their own bedroom ;)... I guess it would be pretty cool to raise my kids among a mini villiage like I imagine from your description. Do you run into any trouble with jealousy, elf? When there IS sex, is it an all 6 at once in the same place thing, or do you pair or 'tri' off? or is it "hey, I'm horny, who wants some?" buffet kind of thing?

If it works for everyone involved, including the kids, then I have no problem with it.

I know that it would never work for me. I would be too jealous and insecure if my wife was sleeping with someone else.

I would also be concerned that it might screw the kids up later in life, but I can't say how exactly that would happen.

I'm actually a little surprised that it is working for you. Because I can't imagine it working. With so many people involved, I would imagine emotions could really start mess with people, and things would fall apart.

But, as I said, if it works for everyone, then more power to you guys.

I'm not sure where to start so I'll just share some thoughts and see where it goes.

That you have posted this makes me wonder if something about it isn't starting to bother you - just a hunch, tho. If so, let's have it.

I'd be fairly uncomfortable if the kids knew about the sexual aspect of the GTGs. My opinion is that kids should be taught monogamy and abstention (but not kicked out of the house for breaches of either).

I don't know how you guys get around the problem of having your partner excited by someone else. It would bother me to see my wife more excited about some other dude than me. It would bother me that she has needs I couldn't fulfil. I think that is probably a bigger problem for men.

What is your husband's position on this lifestyle?

More importantly, are you and your husband on the same page with respect to continuing this lifestyle?

Is the problem with "her" your problem or your husband's problem? Or is that the problem?

Since y'all only get together now and then, how is the sex by yourselves? Is the opinion on that mutual?

At some point, y'all are going to be limited to your mates and not have the option of other partners. How will the relationship function then?

I agree--I know for me it would never work. If it works for you that's great, but I kinda don't get why people get married if they want to pursue this sort of thing. Marriage implies the whole monogamy thing--isn't it easier to stay single? I would also be a bit concerned about the kids. Have you discussed it with them?

It's not really my bag, but if it makes you all happy, then it's a good thing.

I agree that bringing it up here might mean you are having some doubts about the situation, as in your comfortableness with it. The #1 person you should be talking with is your husband, as far as how does he answer the questions you just posed to us. Then, the #2-5 peoples should be the ones in your group. (sans kids) Again, how do they answer those questions. If everyone keeps the communication lines open, then this might be a fun and rewarding experience for all involved. Screw what other people think if they find out. You might learn something that you didn't know turned you or your partner on, or a place on him (or you) that is particularly sensitive from a multi-partner encounter. I would love to participate in such a group, (NOT an invite for a PM :)) but finding other ADULTS who are secure enough in their relationships, self confidence, and communication skills is practically impossible.
As for the kids, I guess that is up to you, their ages are an important fact left out here. If they are old enough to be asking more complex questions than 'where do babies come from', I personally would only honestly answer the questions they asked based on your experience, and not offer any more info. I would also follow group sex type questions (along with related ones) with the caveat that although LOTS of people participate in these activities, LOTS of others feel that this type of behavior is unacceptable. Because of that, there is an aura of unnaturalness surrounding anything other than 1 man on top, 1 woman underneath type intercourse. Tell them your opinions, and (importantly!) how you came to them.

See, I don't get that. The hubby and I have a strong relationship, yes... but nowadays you can pretty much consider ANY decade-old relationship 'strong'. We've got all the same bumps in the road as anyone else does. I suppose the only difficulty is that you have nothing to really base expectations on. Such as... let's say your spouse is due to leave town for a week on business. How do you feel about it? Generally, you know what's normal... Do you get jealous that they're travelling? Do you get lonley, are you anxious that they'll <i>meet</i> someone? It's kind of expected to feel these things and you know it's normal. That last one sure surprised me when the situation came up. I was truly thrilled that my hubby found a comfortable spot in an old friend's arms when he was away. BUT then I got a kind of weird jealous-thing when she sent him little gifts (CDs she had made up with songs on them that made him smile) after he had come home. Understandable or overreaction? I don't know. I ended up brushing that off as overreaction.

Group dynamics are fun. All six of us are very very different types of people:
The women are as follows: dom femme through and through (we'll call her 'J') the quasi-sub-esque type (me) and the mousy, can't assert authority over a six-year-old type ('R').
The menfolk pretty much compliment each respective wife. R's hubby (B) is veryvery forward and dominating, my hubby (P) is very dominating in certain situations, but laid back in others, and J's hubby (S) is able to shift his moods to pretty much suit hers. I don't know if all that makes sense to you... and I realize that I'm explaining the whole thing on a sex-based chart... but I think it's the easiest way to describe us all.
The common thread is gaming. We all are gamers, and we play everything from cards to D&D. The kids all pretty much get along, there's usually the four kids floating around (two belonging to me and P, the other two to S and J) though sometimes B's kids are around. His ex has them most of the time. I think we'd have to be over there a lot more often than we are to figure that the kids are gaining any village-rearing advantages. In any case, they're happy that we go down to visit every weekend, and oh, but you should hear the whinings of disappointment any time there's a cancellation...

Verrrry rarely. I used to think that I was kind of broken. Why didn't I feel jealous when he talked about this one or that one, or when he was away... ? I get more jealousy issues when he's got to be at work and I don't - if I'm not working, he should be with <i>meee!</i>. On the other hand, I feel good when he's off playing.

Heh. Always comes down to sex, eh? I happen to like sex, so I certainly think it does. :)
Basically anything goes. R needs a hat to wear whenever she's 'in the mood' because she will nevernever assert herself enough to initiate, and B and J are just about always in the mood. So sometimes there are pairings-off where couples have just shifted around, and sometimes there's a pile of people on the basement floor. Sometimes there's a smaller pile of people and there's a couple off elsewhere. Depends on lots of stuff. . .

Nah. I posted the question for a few reasons... I'm an attention whore sometimes, and I kind of jumped on the opportunity to have <i>my</i> lifestyle be ON TOPIC for once, and not a tangent or thread-jacking.

Mostly, though, is that I don't really get to talk to people about it much. Within my circle, it's just the way it is, and outside of it, it's usually inappropriate to mention.

Besides, it's my birthday and I can be an attention whore on my birthday, can't I? :p

I'll be back in awhile...

Well, Happy Birthday!!!

http://www.cellar.org/images/newsmilies/do_it.gifhttp://www.cellar.org/images/newsmilies/do_it.gifhttp://www.cellar.org/images/newsmilies/do_it.gif

I think I got the count right :)

happy birthday to you!

how did this first begin??

Mrs. Elspode and I have some experience in this area, both in our previous marriages to others, and in our current relationship. There's no pat answer to "is poly good or bad", because every single situation is different.

In general, we have not discovered it to be a real great thing. Every poly relationship we have had or known of in our community has ended badly, save two, and we've known of *a lot* of them over the years. Not only have they ended badly, but they have usually ended worse than any one-to-one coupling we've ever known of.

Our last one was about three years back. We held out great hope for it as we both are heartily in support of the concept in principle. However, while the lady from the other couple was very compatible with me and my Mrs., the gent was not clicking with my wife at all. The greater comfort level and attraction between myself and Mrs. X quickly caused terrible strain, and so we dissolved the whole scene before causing any more harm to the friendship we all had.

The friendship ended up going by the wayside anyway due to a different matter involving the Mr. of the other couple, and we remain friends with the Mrs. However, the other couple got involved with a second couple several months later, and with the result that the Mr. of the couple we had been involved with left his Mrs. for the other couple's Mrs. (ya'll following me so far?). Part of the reason we dissolved our arrangement with them was because we saw high potential for their relationship coming undone over it, and our fears turned out to be true. We didn't wish to contribute to it any more than we had, and so that figured into our considerations.

We had been aware that the other couple's relationship was not as strong as it should have been when we were with them. I do believe in one thing for sure...you *must* be absolutely secure with your own relationship before you dive into something like this. Even as secure as Mrs. Elspode and I are together most of the time, our experience caused a lot of setback to our relationship...irrational jealousies, fears and other nasties (none of which actually related to the sexual component, strangely enough) arose, and are only now being put down again.

Both of our first marriages suffered from similar things, hers more than mine (my first wife and I dallied with consent, but not a great deal. My current Mrs. was much more involved in the Poly lifestyle before she met me...and subsequently left her husband to be with me, after a few months of us being a poly triad).

So...you can see from my brief description that it *can* be very, very difficult to do this. But, when it works, it is terribly cool and very fulfilling.

So far, so good. I suppose that a good amount of the reason that it's working so far is that none of us live too very close to each other. We really only all get together once a week, we've usually got plans as to what we're doing socially, and then we let the rest of it all come together however it works that weekend. None of us are jealous people. P is probably the most jealous of us all, but maybe that's only my perception because I don't see the others as much, I don't know them as well. Sometimes I think it works BECAUSE there's six of us. We're our own support group when it comes to dealing with eachother.

As for the kiddigans, well, I don't really know. They're really one of my stumbling blocks. I'm never sure how much they understand, and I'm always leery of overinforming the poor things. My girl-child is eleven, but she's definately younger than that on maturity level, and my son is nine, going on thirteen. I've never lied to them, and I figure I'll just keep answering whatever questions come up as they ask em. I can only hope that I haven't screwed them up worse than ... normal. Here's hoping the whole thing simply teaches them that normal ain't the end-all-be-all in life.

I suspect that just like kids of monogamous parents, your kids really don't want to think about you having sex, regardless of whom it's with. I think it'll be many more years before they become interested in your situation at all, let alone for sociological purposes.

I do have to ask, though: you mention all six of you in the basement, or plans lasting over the weekend. Where are the kids while these gatherings are actually happening? Asleep?

Pretty much what I was doing, too. *grin* But I was mostly being an attention whore. :) And as I mentioned, there's no horrible problem looming over me. . .
Kids certainly put a twist on things. . . My daughter's eleven but pretty much acts like an eight or nine year old... I keep meaning on having the standard birds & bees discussion with her, but I keep putting it off because she seems too young. My boy probably already knows more than I would care to tell him. He's too quick for his own good. S & J's kids are much more worldly than mine. I'm pretty sure that their influence on each other is going to evenutally have a mediating effect on all of them. One can hope, no?

We're both on the same page. . . And sometimes he gets a little jealous or uncomfortable with attention that I'm getting. . . and he will tell me so, and we work it out. Usually, it doesn't change a damned thing, I let him know that I understand how he feels, and we move along. He understands that I don't usually have the same issues that he does, and a lot of the time my just reassuring him of my feelings for him will make him feel much better. Sometimes I wish I got jealous, too, so that I would really empathize with him, but ... well, I don't.

All that and it's really never been a need to have more than he could give. More of a desire for variety, change and chaos. I thrive in chaos. It makes me happy. Besides, on those weekends where there is no outside sex, he can usually count on a little extra nookie.

"Her" being the third of our triad... That's mostly a "her" problem, what with being a phychopath and all. We're <i>still</i> working our way out of that tangle.

Eek! I'm pretty sure I didna say that. . . he and I have a <i>very</I> good sexual relationship.
I'd think just the same as it has in the past when we've been reduced to a duo. I get ... stir crazy, though. I'm very not happy when my world gets too patterned. He and I have had this big cycle going on throughout our marriage... sometimes it gets bumpy, and sometimes it gets terribly dull, but usually, we come around full circle and back around to an upswing.

And thank you for the birthday wishes. :blush:

I'd talk to him, but I already <i>know</i> what he thinks! :) Pretty much the same for the group.

As for the kids, that's one of the things that is always lurking in the back of my head - a little dread that they're going to say something to the wrong kid, and then it's a frigging catastrophe. You never really know what goes on in a kids brain, though they know not to mention/talk about where people sleep... well, I guess the best I can do is hope that they understand the value of discression. Or they'll learn it, hm?

I keep thinking "Fall of the Roman Empire" as I read this ...

[soapbox]Way too complicated. I really wouldn't want the kind of bond you're talking about outside of my marriage. There is too much potential trouble having sexual relationships with people you cannot know as well as your spouse. I don't see the problem for your child being that someone finds out that you're swingers. The problem is that your life-style creates very real dangers for your daughter. The woman from your triad turned out to be a nutjob but you're willing to bring four potential nuts into your life? Think about your child's safety, your first responsibility is to her.[/soapbox]

This is that strange case where I'm being completely serious.

Good point, griff.

Danielle van Dam

I think that we've found that the more casual the whole thing is, the easier it is to deal with. The triad thing, as I mentioned, didn't work out . . . but then, it wouldn't have worked out in the long run even if it was not a serious relationship. I don't think that I could truly be friends with this woman... everything that I thought she was turned out to be this huge facade of normalcy (up to and including needlepoint and a love of hiking) . . .

Anyway - psychosis aside - yeah, none of it is easy. But then, neither is marriage or parenthood.

The way we're doing it now is friendship first. I like it, it's comfortable.

Truth! I do very much fear overinforming them. . .

Yeah, all the kids are upstairs and asleep before any of the ... fun stuff goes on.

well, i've got some thoughts on the issue, but i want to make sure that i really understand the dynamics involved first. so, if you would send me a video, or set up a decent webcam, i'll let you know what i think after i have time to, um... research.


bruce hasn't been here yet, so i thought i would beat him to the punch.

:p heh. Dramatic much? :unsure:

I see where you're coming from on this. . . but if you step aside from the fact that there's sex going on, you can also see that if you socialize in any form with your family, you need to be careful to protect your children.

I do protect my children. I've done everything that I can to keep them safe ... <i>and</i> made sure that they feel secure in telling me if something wrong happens to them - damage control. I know that she's getting to an age where these things need to be closer to the forefront in my little list of worries. . . I'm not going to shelter them to the point of keeping them in a bubble, either, though.

I'm get the impression that overall, people tend toward the thought that there's some equation of alternative=dangerous. Why is that? The people I'm with now seem more normal than a lot of straight & narrow types I know. . .

hnmmmm... research. Good idea. . .

Ain't gonna happen, but a good idea nonetheless!
:p
<small>
'sides, you prolly don't wanna see me nekkid. You like for your eyeballs to be unscathed, no?

you just let me be the judge of what i want my eyeballs to take in.

You already know that the intensity of these exta-familial relationships is much higher than "regular" socializing.

If you really have an eleven year old girl in your house who hasn't been taught anything about her sexuality, you are not protecting her.

Sometimes conservative attitudes exist because they protect people. I only know that I'm not perceptive enough to know five people as well as I know one. I know I'm coming off as pretty square here but I've been in enough classrooms to see what kids become when they are not first on their parents list of priorities.

And the insecurities you may feel in any of your complex adult intimate relationship(s) are here multiplied, at or in home, and I would worry- really magnified and sensed by the younguns. So respect, intimacy, and security for all the various participants are the issues for this monogomous reader. I know I could never achieve success in all of these areas if in your position.

And sometimes they exist as a form of hypocrisy to make society at large feel better about itself. When some states have more laws on the books prohibiting sex toys than firearms you have to wonder who is protecting whom from what.

Being 'conservative' and caring about children are not the same thing.

Whuff dah. Ok, I know you aren't deliberately trying to get my rile up so I'm going to not get overdefensive. . .

The 'intensity' of the relationship.... how to put it. Let's try a scale of one to ten.
1 would be the mellowness of a family gathering when the 'black sheep' of the family didn't show up. Comfortable. Easy, yes?
5 would be an average, somewhat affectionate couple (will kiss in front of the kids, but limit it to a few seconds, and no groping) Disputes will be settled without hiding from the kids, but any heated arguements will wait till they're not there.
10 would be... oh, how about a night club? High competition, attitudes, etc. Sexual tension and the possibility of fights breaking out everywhere.

The group we're with rates around a four.

Hell, I'm not sure how much an eleven year old should know. . . She knows what appropriate contact is, and which parts of her body are her own and not to be touched by others. She knows that she can come to me if she's curious about things or if something her friends have said has got her perplexed. She was purely disgusted with me when I asked her after her school dance if she kissed any boys.

Am I that far off?

I don't think you're 'coming off square' as you put it, I think you saw something that set off your alarm bells, and went ahead and said so. So far as I see, that's always a good judgement call.

I know people who are involved in this lifestyle. They seem to enjoy it. The problem I have with it is that they are so casual about it, especially when they have kids. They act like it's no big deal to be having an orgy when the kids are in the house too. It just seems weird to me... otherwise, whatever floats your boat.

Truth.

1 of 4 from a convention attended by Peter Bagge, from the Reason website: (be sure to check out all 4)

http://www.reason.com/0403/bagge1.jpg

The rest can be found here.

I am liberal enough to believe in gay marriage, abortion, and promiscuity, but when it comes to marriage, I don't see the point in it if you're sharing your spouse.
I could never share my husband with another woman, and I would never want to be with another man. If he told me that I could be with someone else, I still wouldn't, because I know that if I was, I would feel so guilty and I think it would ruin our marriage. Just picturing him sharing himself with another woman like that pisses me off and saddens me at the same time.
That's what I feel is best for ME and MY marraige, but hey, to each his own. I work with a girl who has an open marriage like that, and I'm nice to her, we chat, whatever, but I never want to hang out with her outside of work and I'll never understand it, but who the hell am I to judge people? I'll do what makes me happy, and hey, do whatever makes you happy.

it's just skin.....

Not at all, as many here will tell you.

Just very conservative, and spend a majority of my time dealing with fucked up people and their fucked up worse offspring.

You'd think we were splayed out in the living room or something. . . There's a buffer of three rooms, one hallway and a flight of stairs.

Kids and sex don't mix. Agreed. Does that mean a married couple should not have sex in the same house that the kids are sleeping in? Of course not.

eek. I'm pretty sure I won't be attending any conventions. Activists scare me. :alien:

I would probably stay away from just about any kind of alternate lifestyle gathering. It's mind-boggling how different each relationship can be, and how extreme they can get. I figure me and mine for the low-key end of the whole thing.

The people I know are splayed out in the living room... their children are also older and beginning to develop their own sexuality per se... I know I was a pretty warped pre-teen, but if my parents were engaging in that sort of activity in my house when I was that age, I think I might have ended up really messed up.

Sex is healthy. Sex is fun. Sex with friends rocks. <i>Love</i> has nothing to do with it. Love as friends, yes. <i>Love</i> as I do my husband, no. Different thing entirely. (Shouldn't there be different words for love in all it's forms?)

I don't see it as "sharing" my husband. We go visit them to have fun. We play games, watch football, while away Sunday mornings, have sex, go shopping, dancing... we just don't tend to bother with worrying about who is with whom for which part.

But we are very married. If he left me I would fall to pieces. We have each other to hold when the world rocks on its axis, we rely on each other's strength when our own fails. I brought him through having a heart condition taken care of - which he would have ignored till it killed him, were he single. He is my rock, and keeps me from floating adrift when my impulses would have me make bad decisions.

Maybe it's because I was very promiscuous before I was married. Maybe it's because I'm a gypsy and hate to have too much pattern in my life... I don't know why it works, but we're much happier, have more sex as a couple, generally healthier and more satisfied with life than when we were 'just a married couple'.

Yes I have. ;)

Who'd a thunk it? A Republican is trying to allow polygamy! Doesn't he know that that's just one step down the slippery slope to gay marriage?

I still say that society has no business regulating consensual personal relationship contracts between adults. In the case of Mormon Polygamy, though, there's the small matter of people marrying off their children when they're still...well...children.

There are issues of child molestation in the Utah polygamy communities, and I do tend to agree with the notion that children should not be allowed to enter in to consensual, legally binding agreements.

Yeah, I agree with the guy. Allowing polygamy wouldn't, and shouldn't, remove the statutory rape, incest, and minimum marriage age laws. I just thought it was funny that after all the conservative commentators saying that gay marriage would lead to polygamy, the first lawmaker to actually propose polygamy is from the GOP.

I'm sure the gay community would love nothing more than to advance the idea that polygamy is a step in the direction of gay marriage but let's face it - the ideas aren't in the same universe.

There is nothing stopping a gay couple in America from entering into a contract that is legally indistinguishable from marraige. That coupled with the fact that no major religion recognizes/sanctions/conducts gay marraiges tells me its more about a societal endorsement than an actual relationship.

But, I'm not gay so its possible I'm misrepresenting the gay point of view. I am open to disagreement.

And yet the argument was constantly made in the other direction.
That is not even remotely true. In fact, a couple of states have laws explicitly banning contracts designed to simulate marriage.
When an Elvis impersonator in Vegas can carry out a legal marriage, the religious angle is pretty much moot. The WHOLE gay marriage issue is about civil marriage, not religious marriage, so it is obviously about societal recognition and legal rights. The relationship is already there.Your contract premise is incorrect, so the conclusion is incomplete, so you can't trust your deduction. Though I also can't speak from experience for the gay point of view.

Religious marriages (more often called commitment ceremonies) for gay couples have been conducted around the nation. The religious service does not require the civil paperwork ... you're just making a commitment before God(s)/Goddess(es).

My boss is a member of a Quaker Meeting here in PA that has had several gay couples presented before the Meeting.

That has to rank near the top of the list of the shit I would have never, ever, expected to hear in this life.

I don't understand the surprise on your part ... Quakers, although traditionally fairly reserved, are raging peacenik liberal types ... at least they are here in PA, which is pretty much where they come from.

Plus, Quakers don't have much of a hierarchy, so whatever is OK with the members can't really be overruled by "the boss".

I'm not offended or anything. It was just a bizarre statement on the surface.

Social Security, health insurance and other benefits cannot be contractually bound between consenting adults. Only a legal marriage can allow that.