Child Support or Vengence Money?
 

The Players:

Husband - my current husband
Bitch - Husband's ex and mother of his two children
Cop - The man Bitch left Husband for, and is still living with but not married to.
Girls - Husband's two female children, living with their mother, Bitch.

The Background:
Husband was married to Bitch for 10 years. (They had been dating for 2 years before that.) They lost one daughter at 3 days old during the dating phase, and got married soon after. The Girls followed. Husband and Bitch decided that he would work and pay for her to go to tech school and watch Girl #1, then when she got a good job, she would work and watch girl #1 while he did same. They had girl #2 right at the end of Bitch's schooling. Husband ended up working 3 jobs while Bitch was watching girls and couldn't get a job.

In 2001, Bitch met Cop and had an affair. She kicked Husband out so that she could move Cop in and filed for divorce.

The divorce decree does not even mention the children, let alone provide for support or custody. I find this strange. Husband does not remember being served papers or getting notification of a divorce hearing. He remembers being given the final decree. Again, no mention of the children in the decree. At all.

Bitch and Cop move to Georgia. Husband is living in NJ and MI, pays her a little money a month (about $300) even though there is no official support arrangement, he wants to take care of his girls. He doesn't get down to GA to visit them often, (can't afford it) but he sends the CS checks in a card, and calls almost every week. Mails Christmas presents.

March 2003 Husband moves to NV (where he meets me) and pays her some there with money orders, then he moves to NC with me in Aug 03.

September 2003 we get married, and I start writing the CS checks from my bank account. He was out of work for a while, but when he did get back to work, he tried to catch up on his payments. Keep in mind these are strictly voluntary payments, no CS has been ordered.

We send a bunch of Christmas gifts in 2003.

In April, we rent a car, drive from NC to GA (10 hours) and pick up the girls, drive back, and have them for a week, then rent another car, drive down there and take them back.

In June I get my two boys back from my ex, and we find out girl #1 has diabetes. We discuss sending more money to help defray medical costs, but we can't afford it.

In Sept Husband finally gets a good job but he's a temp, so doesn't get benefits.

In October he goes from Temp to Perm, so we put my two boys on his insurance and he asked her if she wanted him to put the girls on his insurance. She said no, she has a really great insurance and only pays $15 a month for both girls on her insurance. OK.

Yesterday, my husband gets served with Child Support Enforcement paperword from NC. Apperantly, Bitch filed on January 21, 2004 and it went to GA CSE, who forwarded it to NC CSE, who finally served us yesterday.

She's asking for unspecified Child Support and Medical Coverage, backdated to January 21.

At NO time from Jan 21 to now (even when we asked if she wanted the girls on medical) did she tell us she filed anything. On the paperwork, she does not list Cop's income (even though he helps support her and the kids. We know this because she's told us during conversations about how they couldn't afford the phone bill, and they were evicted for not paying rent and they were moving in with her brother.) and she does NOT list all the money Husband has been sending her every month. She says her sole income is her job, that she makes $1100 to $1600 a month, and her outgo is $1536 a month. In addition, she has her rent listed as $250 for her and $500 for the girls, and food as $600 a month for the family. It doesn't break down how much her total rent is, so I don't know if she pays $750 total and is trying to say Cop doesn't pay rent or if it's $1000 a month and she's saying Cop is paying $250. But she LIED, under oath, when she said she doesn't get any income from Husband.

Now, we fully realize and acknowledge that Husband needs to be supporting his kids. And that $300 isn't much at all for 2 kids. And if we could afford to send more, we would. But at the same time, it's not like he's a deadbeat dad who doesn't care or WANT to support them.

I was livid last night when I got home. I slept badly and little last night, and I'm at a place now where all I can do is try to prove to the court how much we make and how much we owe monthly, and show that we really can't afford more than $300 right now.

I want the court to see that she's perjured herself and give us credit for all the money we've given her (we're working on documentation) and we want to show that he's been as active as he can be for hundreds of miles away.

I don't believe this is just about her getting more money for the girls. I think she wants to milk as much as possible from Husband because he married me and we're happy. She is a miserable, lying person and wants to make everyone else as miserable as she can.

This directly affects my finances, and MY children as well. I got a phone call two weeks ago from my ex, he's going to Iraq, so I'm getting my daughter New Year's Eve through at least June, probably longer. I don't get child support from my boys' fathers, it's just me and Husband making it as best we can.

I fear the worst: NC is going to nail us with $1200 a month child support and we will go under. We're barely making it now, and have put off paying other bills just to make sure Bitch was paid every month.

I don't know what to do.

Unless you get an attorney you just have to bend over and take it.

Welcome to the world of the non-custodial parent.

Lubrication not provided.

Y'know, this probably doesn't help you much, but at our final hearing, the judge asked Case and I both to confirm that we were waiving the right to request child support and maintenance. Paraphrasing a bit, but when the judge asked the question, she included a statement like "you realise that by waiving this right, you also relinquish any and all future claims to child support and maintenance". She made it very clear that it would be a closed issue, and that neither of us could ever go to court and say "I've changed my mind, I want child support". This was in Colorado, and the law does vary state-by-state, but it might be worth checking into.

Well, that could be a factor, because in the final decree (that doesn't mention the children) there is a line about how all other issues not brought forth within the decree are (paraphrasing) dismissed and it's over.

We're calling NJ to get a full and complete copy of the divorce, to see if she even put the kids in there. Husband doesn't remember signing anything, including a petition, all he got was a copy of the signed decree saying he was divorced.

So we'll see what the dillio is with that.

To get it out of the way ... if you don't want to make the (bank) withdrawals, don't make the (sperm) deposit.

Get an attorney. You may need more than one, since there are multiple state jurisdictions involved.

Get your documentation together. If it's not in writing, or with evidence of a cancelled check, it didn't happen.

He's happy to help support his children. That is not even the issue.

How we're going to afford that I don't know.

Already started. I was on the phone all morning getting the copies of the cancelled checks that have been written since he moved in with me ($3750) and he will be calling his former banks in MI and NJ to get statements and then check copies from them to prove from 01 through 03. Also, we are getting a full and complete copy of the divorce decree. If she divorced him on a publication basis, which you can only do if you don't know where the spouse is, then she lied, because he was calling the girls every week and she knew damn well where he was.

We're looking into phone records to prove that, too.

I'm only speaking with experience of the laws in Texas, but I can't imagine they're that drastically different from NC.


First off, don't give her ANY more money until a child support order is in place. In Texas at least, such payments DO NOT COUNT even if you have cancelled checks and utter proof that you gave her that money--the money must go through the system for it to count, and that's explicitly stated in the standard child support order. Money given before the courts step in can be counted in some cases, but once they're involved they want control of all money that passes hands.

Secondly (again I'm only sure about Texas) there is a cap on how much of his income they can take, and they can't consider yours at all--30% of gross is all they can take, and he can argue for the right to deduct them as dependents on his taxes.

Third, check out www.fathers.org. They're a legal advocacy group for men being screwed by Bitches (TM). I think they're local, but they may have links to a group closer to you. Sometimes they have lawyers who will take cases pro bono.

Thanks, Clod. I've been looking at some websites and talking to my friend who knows people in similar situations, and she told me they don't count my income, (which is a huge load off my mind), and pointed me to two different calculators. It appears that the most they'll be taking is about $500, and a low end number is about $300. If it comes down to it, I can probably get a personal loan from my aunt to pay off my car ($200 a month) and we'll be able to pay her back at $50 a month for the rest of my life.

We had already decided she wasn't going to get a damn thing now until we're told to pay her, Husband is going down tomorrow and opening a checking account at the Credit Union and we'll continue to put $300 a month into that account, listed in the girls' name with Husband as trustee, until this is all settled. That way, if we do get nailed for back support (hopefully they will give us credit for the money we can prove we paid, about $2250 since January) we have a small reserve to pull from, and it also shows that we aren't trying to skip out on our responsibility.

Because I know firsthand that it can be hard to remember all the different aspects of a court order when you're actually standing there for hours in front of the judge, here are some things that you should definitely remember to bring up:

1.) Medical Insurance - The standard order calls for the father to pay for and maintain insurance for the children, even if the mother also has secondary insurance. Make sure you mention that she has had them on a good plan for years and has specifically said she did not want to put them on your insurance, or you could end up having to pay for a policy they don't even use.

2.) Tax deductions - It's very common for the person paying child support to be given the right to claim the kids as dependents, even if they don't live with you. Deducting two additional kids will save you tons of money on your yearly taxes.

3.) Visitation - If an official order is going in, he will have increased rights to get to see the girls. In cases where the parents are so far apart, having them live with you all summer is not uncommon. If you can't afford for them to live with you for that long, you can use "giving that time up" as a bargaining chip to basically get to pick and choose when you do get to see them, on your schedule.

4.) Visitation costs/driving - Usually travel costs will be split if you bring it up (i.e., she'd have to pay for half of that rental car next time, or possibly even drive them to you herself half the time.) If you don't ask for a ruling, it will default to you as the non-custodial parent.

5.) Make sure the child support terminates when each child turns 18, and not when they get out of college. The latter is being worked in to more and more child support orders these days, and doesn't even allow you to give the money straight to the kid now that they're an adult, it still goes to the custodial parent.

Those are great points that I had thought of (briefly) and then forgotten about.

The insurance thing isn't a deal, in fact, I think Husband has added them on today. Since he's already on the family plan (which is a set amount regardless of how many kids you put on it) it doesn't cost us anything more to add the girls.

And you bet your behind we're getting visitation, and she'll pay half. (We'll come pick them up, she can come take them home.) And we're only paying until they are 18, after that, we'll help them directly with school, etc.

At least, that's our hope at this point.

I feel your pain, OC.

A fair way to handle a situation like this would be if the court would decide on a legitimate amount to provide for the children's welfare, and barring any extreme circumstances like abuse or neglect, custody will be be decided by coin flip, loser pays support and get the other parent gets custody.

I have a feeling a lot more of these cases would never happen.

Or you could just find a couple of local crackheads to go over and *discuss* it with them. If you haven't seen it, go rent Hitchcock's "Strangers on a Train". Criss-cross!

My e-mail is in my profile.

LOL Thanks for the offer, NBN, and believe me, the thought has crossed my mind.

Unfortunetly, other than being dishonest and a manipulative Bitch, she treats the children well, and no court in the world would give us custody over her (since she doesn't mistreat them).

So it's in the courts hands. All we can do is prove he's been paying her in good faith, and keep putting the money in an account every month until this gets settled.

I can't wait for her to have the nerve to ask where her money is. *muhaha* We're not telling her what we're doing (with the children's account) until she asks. *evil grin*

I wish I could see the look on her face......

Wow, OC, I completely understand this situation, because it is nearly identicle to mine. My bf is dealing with a psycho ex, as well, and we all feel the pain of her episodes of benign, self-righteous, bubble-headed tyrany. She basically takes the kids right off, manipulates and intimidates to get what she wants and calls it generous. Now, she wants to move to Texas (20 hours away) to marry some guy she met this summer and take bf's 2 kids with her. She even has the nerve to tell my bf that he can only have the kids for 1 1/2 months during the summer. She has no real justification (unless you count "I want the kids to grow up in the 'truth'" a real justification). He plans to object to the uprooting of his children from their home to go live with someone they don't know and no family in sight. She can't just take them, can she? I believe she has done all this to try and squeeze as much money out of him as she can. The first thing she did when they split up was quit her good paying job and enroll in school so the CS formula would show that she needed more money for the kids. However, she moved the kids and herself to another town without bf's agreement. In Texas she hopes to "be a full-time mom" with the new sap's 3 kids and bf's 2. (I always hate that term, because it implies that those of us who work are not moms all the time.) Sorry to get off the subject, but I am glad this topic came up. OC, don't despair. The entire world (although it seems so) does not believe that all single mothers are martyrs to be pitied and awarded charity. Some of them choose the victim role and abuse the system to get vengeance.

Well, with your story, Case, I can be happy Bitch isn't quite like that, although just because she isn't doing that at the moment doesn't mean WON'T. I've been reading NC law, and it seems that if either parent voluntarily stops working (or gets themselves fired) NC will calculate on what you WERE making, and ignore that you don't have income now. Husband has already put Bitch through school, so she's a Nuclear Tech and making nearly $12 an hour (which is damn good money for where I am, but she's in GA, so I dunno.)

My happiest moment so far is that they won't count MY income even though Husband and I are married.

Oh, and as a side note, Christmas day I went out to the car, to get my phone (which I had stupidly left) and someone threw a rock at my driver's side window. It's completely shattered. $200 to fix that now.

*sigh*

No. Remember that was one of our orders? Neither of us can take Jamey out-of-state without written consent from the other parent. That wasn't an agreement we made, that was law (Again, Colorado law).

OC, that sucks. The child support, the car window, all of it. I'll keep you and your family in my thoughts (for whatever thats worth :) ). It seems like crises get much worse around the holidays, I've had my own stack of problem after problem lately, and I really do sympathise. But I think I've got this part down pat now: Take care of yourself and your family, it'll work out somehow.

*smiles* thanks for the happy vibes. we needs em!

Onyx, stop reading NC law, and start reading GA.

NC will just administer the decision of the GA courts.

Crap.

OK so per GA code 19 - 6- 15, section c, looks like we'll have to pay $437 to $532, and provide the health insurance (which we are paying for anyway).

This can be mitigated by the court (or CSE) and two reasons out of many they may mitigate is his responsiblity to our household (ie we're supporting 3 kids at our house), and her income.

GA law is different than NC law in that NC law takes income from both parents and sets an average of what should be paid toward the children, then halves it, mitigates, and that's how much we pay. GA law goes flat rate percentage (23% to 27%) based only on Husband's income, and then mitigates.

I think we were better off under NC law, but wolf's absolutely right. We're under GA law here, NC is just collecting.

Dammit.

This thought has been flitting through my mind:

She's getting child support from Husband.

My oldest son's father is in prison (ever), can I get child support from the state of Oregon? Like....back dated from the time I was awarded custody by the state?

You certainly can...of course, you'll never see a dime from him, but...

Prisoners are paid for the work they do while incarcerated. Not much, but paid.

It's worth a shot.

The real question may be if there is a statute of limitations for filing for the support ... You can only collect until the kid's 18, typically, but would you have had to file the claim prior to a certain date, and does any other court order or filing impact your ability to claim the support?

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV.

You can file anytime before the kid's 18, but usually you can't backdate it very far unless you can prove that he was hiding and you couldn't locate him, etc.

But yeah, you're not going to get much out of him. I think prisoners make something like thirty cents an hour? And that's assuming he's in a labor program.

OC my thoughts are with you. I have to say to a lot of what I have read here, your posts and others I think Sixfeet and I are lucky.
We were together before she met the donor. When she was with him he always treated her and the kids as trash. When she and I first got back together he use to ocme see our son, but he always treated him as an annoyance while he tried to convince Sixfeet to come back to him. After a lot of crap from her mother she and I seperated(not really or choice,even longer story) she ended up with him again. She was in a bad state and I still say there was a lot more shit going on in that house than I ever found out about. I lived 12 hours away and could not convince her that she didn't deserve the scumbag. She felt she was owed punishment for what happened between us. SHe got Pregnant again and the jerk actually tried causing a car accident to make her lose it.
SHe wise up some and moved in with parents. so did he not long after. After our daugther was born she realized that most of the real trouble and pain in her life came from him. She called me and asked if I really meant it when I told her that I loved her. I said yes and asked her what she wanted. She said a home for her kids. MAybe even something better for herself. I like to think I came through on that. We dont have much, but we are happy. as are the kids.
The point of this incredibly rambling post is this. We got lucky. He never cared about the kids. Never really wanted them, they were a barginning chip to get to Sixfeet. Since our marriage five years ago there has been one phone call. Him asking her mother if she was home. Her mother told him she had moved and was getting married. Just like she had told him. SHe offered the phone number and addie, he said he didn't need it and hung up. With any luck that will be the last we ever hear from him. Our children will know who he was. Beyond that he is owed nothing but pity.

Ah well, just as with my second son's father, I'd just as soon they not know where I am. I'll be poor but I won't have to deal with them.

Nightsong, your wife's ex sounds like my first ex (father of my oldest...who just turned 17 yesterday, BTW....I'm old). I'm glad the scumbag isn't in your lives, causing problems.

She finally called to find out where HER money was, and my husband was WAY calmer than I would have been. He told her that he's put it in a bank until the court order is established.

We filed the answer on Thursday.

I received the copy of their divorce and you should SEE the crap she wrote about Husband. It was melodrama to the max. She was deceitful then and she's deceitful now. ***grr***

So we answered and now we wait for a court date, I guess....

We have our court date on March 11.
We're asking not to pay back support, since it was never ordered in the first place and we've been sending money.
We're asking for court ordered visitation, with her paying their way home.
We're asking for either one girl every year for taxes or both girls every other year for taxes.

I'll let you know.....

Try for the younger girl every year.

OK. So we had The Hearing (tm).

We arrived at 8:15 for a 8:30 start time. They opened up the security checkpoint at 8:36 and we got scanned in.

We stood outside the court room door in the hallway with about 30 other people. There were 91 cases on the docket, all child support.

The case workers (the 4 ladies who actually work on the cases on the state/plaintiff side) arrived at 8:51.

We walked in and sat on the benches. The assistant DA introduced herself and told us that the case workers would call up every case before the judge arrived to try to get a "consent" (i.e. this is your last chance to settle).

Of the 91 cases on the docket, only 44 or so showed. Of those, about 20 were continuances (most were waiting for genetic testing) or motions for dismissal (due to exclusion by genetic testing). About 10 consented out, and that left about 15 people that had to go through the judge.

The case worker called Husband and he went up there to discuss "consenting". It's called consenting, but that's just another name for "We're going to give you a raw deal and we're hoping that now that you're in the court room and would rather be somewhere else that you'll take it up the ass just to get out of here."

She offered $537 a month, and back pay starting from Dec 1, 2004. No credit for the over $3000 he's paid her in 2004. He brings home $1100 a month, so that's fully 50% of his check. He said, "uh, I don't consent, and I'll talk to the judge."

At about 10am the judge showed up. They got through all the continuances and consent orders. The judge saw 3 cases before ours. In each he seemed to be fair, and not lopsided, (ie favoring the women). We were pretty excited. We had brought every piece of documentation we could think of.

He called Husband up and the case worker told the ADA what they asked for in consent, and that Husband declined. The judge read the answer we filed and looked at the ADA and asked her why they are seeking child support when no custody has ever been established.

He looked at Husband. In the divorce, was custody ever established? Husband said, no. "Was any support ordered?" No. He said that he didn't have any jurisdiction to award custody, esp with the kids in Ga. so he lloked at Husband and said, "Sir, I can't give you legal advice, so I'll ask you this: would like to get an attorney in this matter?" This was completely different than he had been with others...he really wanted us to get an attorney.

Husband elected to get an attorney and Judge gave us a continuance until 4/20. The child support clock is ticking as of April 1, tho, whatever the outcome. Any back support will be from April 1st.

We went out and called some people, and basically, if we hadn't have filed for a continuance, and the judge issued a support order, in effect, he would have been awarding custody, and Husband would have waived all rights to the kids and visitation. That has to be done first, then we worry about support.

So. It's off to find a family attorney. We're going to go for full custody of the girls, and if we can't get that, we'll ask for joint custody, where the girls stay with us 6 months of the year (Christmas to June) and her the rest, and we're going to try to waive child support completely, since we'll both have them the same amount of time, and it's silly to pay her and then her pay us... and we'll want to claim one of the two kids for tax purposes.

And so it goes....

So Husband called around and all the NC lawyers said he has to hire a Ga lawyer and do a phone consultation with them to discuss the case and the fees.

Greeeeeeeeeeeat....

So we got a GA lawyer. $1000 retainer and $105 for the filing fees.

*sigh*

Be prepared to spend a lot more over the next couple of years. You might get lucky and never exceed your retainer, but it's unlikely. Our total lawyer and court costs were over $5000, spread across 3 years.

Welcome to my world, OC *sigh*.

Best of luck to you in this one. Fight hard on it, and remember to put the kids first. :)

The attorney says we'll never get full custody of the girls, unless she's a bad parent, because the courts always favor the mother unless we can prove gross negligence. Which we can't. She's not a bad mother (mostly), we just want the girls with us is all.

Anyway, it's just about the visitation and joint physical and legal custody at this point, and child support. The lawyer says we can expect $475 a month, mitigated by the judge for him supporting my household, and the fact that he brings home $700 less than he is getting counted on gross income per month. ($475 is nearly 50% of his bring home income, and that's after the medical they the state is making us pay for the girls ($250 a month, when the mother pay $15 a month. bastards). Since it's mandatory, we feel it shouldn't count against our income. The lawyer will bring that up.)

I'll keep ya updated AS IT HAPPENS!! (teehee)

Another state heard from.....
 

Hi, OC. I hate to drag yet another state into this, but my experience in New Mexico was that when the child reaches the age of 14 you can also go back to court to get custody. At that age, the child himself may elect which parent he chooses to live with full-time and the court will so order. Although I was born and raised in NC, I did not get married and divorced there so I don't know if that option applies. Husband's children must be approaching that critical age, so it doesn't hurt to find out if it is one of your options and plan ahead. Chin up, and keep strong.

Thanks Tonchi!

(love your "Not smart enough to not write something" tag, too. Welcome to the Cellar, in case Bruce hasn't caught you yet!)

Eeeek! Is Bruce catching? :worried:

He sure is, I was down with a bad case of Bruce last week. Do you have any idea what it feels like to be crushed under 10 metric tons of crazy doodads?

mmmmmmmmmm it feels gooooooooooooood..........

So the scheduled hearing is Wednesday, we're working with the GA attorney to see if he filed the request for dismissal here or not.... if not, we have to go to court and tell the court what the deal is, then the judge dismisses it.

Then we get a GA court date.

ok, so NC won't dismiss until they get proof it was adjucated in GA, and they may decide to file an co-existing order for NC, so we pay NC CSE instead of GA CSE.

Then the attorney tells us that bitch lives in an area of atlanta that is just outside of that county, and they filed in the wrong county, and the new county requires mediation.

Of course, Husband now has to go down there for mediation. (Then wth did we hire the attorney for? If he has to go down there anyway? This is dumb.)

THEN, the secretary sends us documents that *I* have to correct, little things like my husband's name, his gender, and a few other tidbits, and then we get a bill in the mail showing that he spent .17 hours "reviewing and revising" the documents, and billed US $50!!!

WTF??

We get this bill for $685, including filing fees because he filed in the wrong frickin county!!

WTF did we pay a $1000 retainer for?

OMG OC--I soooo feel your pain. What absolute craziness. The courts/clerks in my particular case (which is waaaaay different, but it's all the same system) are so bad that it's actually kind of breathtaking. I give you kudos for hanging in there and fighting for your rights--they make it hard, don't they? Good luck with it all--you're a survivor.

I empathize but can't offer much. Do you have proof of the $300 a month?
Pound to a pinch of shit that the Bitch didn't declare that as income on her taxes. Gotcha!
I know this because I purposely didn't claim mine as a deduction. All finished now though.
Not much help for a good night's sleep. Hang in there and always get a second legal opinion. Just as with doctors.

OK, we had another courrt date for the NC side of the Child Support.

The DA of NC was ready to dismiss, but the GA CSE people are pushing NC to go forward. NC doesn't want to go forward, since we're litigating in GA, so we were given a 120 days continuance in NC, to allow time for the GA litigation to proceed (her county requires mediation, she was served on May 24 and has 45 days to respond).

Meantime, the judged ask Husband if he was still sending money voluntarily, we told him no, since we were told no money he sends her now will be credited as back support. He said that it will be counted, and it looks better if he continues to pay, since that shows he's not trying to delay the case just so he doesn't have to pay her.

So we're going to be paying her $300 a month again, starting July 1, + the attorney + the fees to get him down to GA for this damn mediation....and it's in the papers we filed in GA that she pays our attorney fees...bitch...

Oh Wow I really know how you feel.
 

My new husbands ex triest to take him for everything he has she is so evil. I however got my ex husbands girlfriend finally gone after about 5 years of working on it and now he is pretty easy going since he got rid of her. I go to court today to have 15,000 dollars of back child support wiped clean. Praise God. been praying about this a while now. I am considered a noncustodial mom but i really should have joint custody as much as they are with me. He is just not willing to give it up and i cannot afford a lawyer. When he and his ex broke up he lost the house so the kids have been with me all summer and i havent asked him for a dime of support and I took the kids school shopping go figure. Why can I do it because I dont drink I dont smoke and I dont do drugs. Well just a venting moment.

oh yeah my husband pays 800.00 dollars a month for 3 kids and she lives with her mom by the way.

Then how can you afford that usertitle?
JK - I hope everything works out okay, and welcome to the Cellar.