Bush's latest claim
 

It seems now John Kerry's recent interview with the New York times is now Bush's latest fodder in a pre-election push to win votes. Kerry's out of context quote on likening terrorism with prostitution and other more "minor" crimes, when in it's lower form, is Bush's latest broken record theme. If Kerry's smart he'll bring up George Bush's admition of almost a month ago where he said we could never win against terrorism, it's a tactic, which was quickly spun by Scott McClellan and retracted by Bush a day later. I think Kerry is right, it should be reduced to what it was pre-9/11. It's not terrorism, it's the international forces that use it to thwart globalist giants like the US and mulit-national corporations, largely represented by the US. The fact remains that before the first Gulf war, this really wasn't an issue. Placing US troops in the middle East, supporting and creating CIA trained cadres in Afganistan to fight the Soviets, sustained military supply lines to Israel, all hinging on foriegn dependence on oil has landed us here. Now with a crusade going on in Iraq there is now a true reason for terrorism to flourish. To deal with terrorists you remove the motivation, not create new ones, it's just that simple. If you create new motivations then there must be a harsher response to the threat, a true 0 tolerance level. If you want to keep current economic and social condtions the same, those which embolden the terrorists, then you must fully escalate the offensive.

-Walrus

Apparently, Bush is not working to bring terrorism down to the nuicance level. Lovely. I know I'm looking forward to an eternal war.

W.'s "unwinnable" and Kerry's "nuisance level" are pretty much identical statements about the War on Terror.

Both sides parsed the various statements as they needed to campaign on them.

Both sides pretty much agree on the scope and nature of the problem.

I thought Bush's "unwinnable" was a rare moment of honesty. He immediately retracted it.

We'll see if Kerry wilts under the criticism of his quote, or defends it using, say a quote from General Brent Scowcroft:

Unwinnable and nuisance level
 

I would like to say that they're the same, but GW is now back to saying we can win it. His point is far less articulate and he has flip-flopped on this one. I think it would be nice to identify the real issue and deal with it. Not call the country to arms in a farcsical war on terror, the enemy doesn't exist. It's an ingenious way to moblilize people's fear. It gets away from the general view of the war on terror, and abstration used to defeat percieved enemies. If Bush truly admitted to the idea of tactic, then he would have to ID and go after the true enemies, and that's much more difficult.

-Walrus

I've been talking to a lot of our enlisted army guys since I've been canvassing for the Kerry campaign. Many of them are P.O.'d about the "now you see them, now you don't" WMD's and the fact that we are not going after Bin Laden. "You want me to go put my life on the line, at least be honest about your reasons for sending me off to war," said one. I talked to another man who said he'd always voted Republican up till now. He's a private building contracter, runs his own business. He's also in the Reserves and last year got called up on only 24 hour's notice. He lost all his bids and the jobs he'd been working on, and when he got home he lost the tax deductions on some expensive machinery he'd bought for his business because he hadn't used them for his livelyhood last year. He said, "I don't mind sacrificing for my country - that's why I signed on for the reserves in the first place, but when I get sent off somewhere on a fool's errand at great personal cost, it makes me damned angry. This whole terrorism thing/Patriot Act is destroying the country from within, not without."

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so."
- Julius Caesar -

Just nitpicking here, isn't that actually Shakespeare writing a line for Julius Caesar?

Yes, I guess that was misleading, but nevertheless, I think it's a interesting statement for what is now happening.

Very apropro
 

I think that quote greatly sums up our current predicament well.

The back and forth commentary is nice and all, but you are overlooking the obvious.

Once everyone on the planet is dead, there will be no terrorism.

Thought for sure you guys would "get that". O'well.

And which country has the greatest arsenal of WMD of all, and which has a penchant for undeclared wars against other nations? :eyebrow:

And a madman with his finger on the button?
Is Cheney a madman? :confused:

Dubya should be so lucky to have such a speech writer.

Worse. He is a ruthless opportunist with a great deal of power out for only his own gain. Better he were mad. :mad:

I only have to ask you, who in the history of the world, has ever used a nuclear weapon in wartime?

Yes, I know exactly where you stand. I know a lot of people with this opinion. There are also many who have the exact opposite opinion. We know that they are nothing more than dumbasses though. Their vision is blurred by the bible, Bush's propaganda machine, and Fox news.

In the big picture we're all Americans and I have actually found some things that you have posted here to be interesting and sometimes even funny. We are polar opposites though but any opinions I have are of no value becuase I am a dumbass. They hold no validity. My experience and knowledge of the world is simply fantasy and trumped tenfold by yours. Fine.

Let's start talking about the post election strategy. There are too many numbers on each side to accept defeat, so no matter who wins, half of us lose. That means that tens of millions of people will feel that the political system has failed them. This is not good, no matter who wins.

We can go round and round with articles, referencs and opinions. Nothing changes, not your opinion, not mine. So what is the goal?

For me, it's developing a productive strategy for living with millions of people that 1.) are convinced that they hold the one truth on every issue, and 2.) resisting the culture changes that I so completely disagree with.

No Bruce that doesnt mean that I think Bush will lose :p

I have what I consider to be a unique position of seeing a large variety of very strong polar opposite opinions. My position has not changed but I recognize that we are in a very dangerous postition as a country.

You think that Muhammad and Malvo crashed the local econmy in the DC area over a short period of weeks? That incident is but a drop of water in a bucket, multiply those two by 2000 across the entire country, shooting people for God or Kerry or whatever. Game over.

There are so many people that see no chance for their hopes and dreams to become reality with the opposition's guy winning, that many will participate in some from of rebellion. Much of it will be in simple non-violent protest, much will be in wars in selective spending, and some to disrupt or destroy the system. There are such large numbers that even those that do not directly participate in questionable protest, there will certainly be people that harbor those that do.

There is a culture war in the air. Red versus Blue. Winning isnt winning, losing isnt losing. We are in for more interesting times ahead.

And no, this is not my plan. I'm just a dumbass, remember? Ask someone in the bible belt or NYC though.......

Slang, I never called you a "dumb ass." You are mis-guided, perhaps. ;) I think you are correct in your perception that our country is becoming ever more polarized, and people are coming to feel more and more disenfranchised. In my door to door canvassing many people have said to me either that they're not going to vote because they hate both candidates equally or they're not going to vote because they feel the whole thing has been rigged, so what's the point? On other sites - radical one's, I'll admit - people are openly advocating taking to the streets the day after the election. They say the Chinese have a curse which goes, "May you live in interesting times." Indeed.

Taking to the streets over what - federal funding of stem-cell research?

I'll be happy to participate in a protest, but there must be free parking.

And so it seems that there are groups on both sides are are equally willing to fire the first shot.

If I had a dime for every time I heard the phrase "end times" in the last month, I wouldnt need a job.

You personally have not called me or any other righty a dumbass. That's true. The fact is though that there are so few Reps here because they are run out. They dont have days on end to prepare the replies to a continuous string of accusations, half truths and outright lies. They are gone. I think lookout does a good job at presenting our perspective in a friendly manner and have told him that. But we are outnumbered here. UT does a good job at being fair and has the capacity to make a case well too. Half the time I cant read his posts and the other half I cheer.

The fact is though, that the Cellar is not a cross section of America. Just as in other communities, feel good about the dominance of your philosophy, but realize this isnt reality. It's not balaned.

So anyway, what is the solution to the separation? I dont know. Two countries maybe. That's not going to happen so I dont know.

It is however my opinion that we are all Americans and I can see everyone's contributions and perspectives. That doesnt mean that I or we are going to change our beliefs though. Not any more than the other side.

Where does that leave us? Only time will tell.

UT.....you guys arent the norm. You are a high end guy in a city. You dont believe in God, dont have guns galore, dont work for the government and are not a veteran.

You truly dont even see the wide variety of people that are gearing up.....on both sides.

Here's the site, since you asked. It's hardly a main stream one, and most of it is too far to the left, even for me! :eek: But the thought is being put out there.

http://info.interactivist.net/articl...=thread&tid=14

Those folks can take to the streets and do their protest and all...as long as they don't get in my way. They won't make me sympathetic to any cause by making my day more difficult.

*still seething over recent IMF/World Bank street closings*

With the snafus of the last election still fresh in America's memory, as well as the potential fraud to be done on electronic voting machines, this election is going to be under the microscope like none before it.

If the results are close at all, the after-election will probably be besmirched with recounts, accusations of election fraud, rioting, and other general unpleasantness. The population is not only polarized, but completely and passionately at odds with one another, and that produces a pressure-cooker situation. In the short term, regardless of who wins, a large chunk of the population will be unhappy about the results, some to a violent result.

As a once Rublican(ish) turned Democrat(ish) due to the actions of our president, I would like to point out that whether he meant to or not, George W. Bush engendered this environment of fervent polarity, and whatever post-election fallout occurs is due largely to his actions.

The American people have sacrificed our liberties, our economy, some jobs, and some lives, all at the behest of the president... and to what end? In what way has the life of the average American improved by the actions of this administration? What did we get in return? I can't think of anything.

The people who replied to the poll asking what descripters mostly closely matched their political leanings have given us the following results so far (rounded off to the next largest number):

"Left" leaning 47%
"Right" leaning 19%
Libertarian 22%
Anarchist 12%

The board does have a preponderance of those favoring liberal adjectives, but if you add together "right" plus libertarian, it comes out to 41%. While Republicans and Libertarians may bristle at the thought, the Libertarian philosophy is far closer to the Republican one than it is the Democrat one, so you guys are not so wildly out-numbered as you seem to believe.

Frankly, I don't think that its because we "Liberals" have so much endless time to write posts (Lookout posted here more frequently than I do up until a few days ago); it's that Bush's actions have become increasingly difficult to defend. The people who post here are a pretty bright bunch for the most part, and I don't think anyone is so deluded as to think that the cellar is a representative cross section of American (or international) political thought. One need only look at the latest public opinion surveys to see that this is not so. IMO, the country has not been so deeply divided since the Vietnam era, and I lay the blame for this squarely upon George Bush's doorstep.

Did the protestors shut down the streets, or did the police? The IMF/World Bank meeting in D.C. a week and a half ago didn't have any protests that I am aware of. It did have street closures. They affected me too. I didn't see a single protestor, or see a single news story on any. Did you see any?

The intensity of the Right and their convictions that they have all the answers, and that they tell us that those answers are firmly rooted in a Christian morality which is applicable for *all* scares the hell out of me.

Christianity would have been a great idea if they'd just left out the whole evangelistic imperative thing. A bunch of people running around being nice to everyone in the name of Christ would be an inspiration to all. A bunch of people running around, forcing everyone else to do what they believe Christ's dad wants everyone to do is an affront to humanity.

You have to admire our founders' decision to keep religion and government separate. When the Right bitches about liberal judges rewriting the Constitution, they need to keep in mind their own actions to put religion in every institution, organization and program.

It's convenient for you to say that, but it isn't true. It was closer to true during the Reagan years, but both parties have gotten further away since then, the Republicans faster than the Democrats. And 9/11 brought out all the Republicans traditional law-n-order opposition to liberty too.

From the "Your Worst Nightmares Come True" Department, I present you with the "Rapture Index." Yes, for reals, no kidding. Check it out: :eek:
http://www.raptureready.com/index.php

I can't recall more than a handful of people that have actually called themselves Republicans on this board in the almost 4 years I've been here. The shift to a more liberal board has only really occurred in the past 6-9 months. For quite a while, there were only a few of us willing to call ourselves liberals.

I looked over the link mari provided--raptureready. I guess I'll be Left Behind.

Balderdash! On Nov 3rd, everybody goes back to their daily bullshit.
Take out the garbage, find the damn cat, get the car inspected, dig out the Christmas lights and grumble about the stinkin' politicians.
The rapture will have to wait, I've got enough to worry about just getting laid. :p

I miss the "When the Rapture comes, can I have your car" bumper stickers.

Of course, I miss big bells and chambray shirts, too, so I'm not really a good judge of...well...anything.

I think the closures were done by the police, generally for security concerns...you know truck bombs and whatnot. But I did see what I suppose were small impromptu protest movements. Specifically, I ran into (and almost OVER) a group of about 15 people shouting and waving hastily scrawlled signs, spilling off the sidewalk into the street. They managed to stop traffic for about 5 minutes but in DC that's plenty of time to cause a fairly significant backup. I don't know how long that gathering lasted, I didn't stay to find out. It's possible they disbanded and left before cops could do it for them.