Today Russia, tomorrow the UK?
 

You just have to love the results of letting folks stroll on in with their request for asylum. I don't know this guy, his politics, or the whole situation. I do know his comments mark him as an A+ asshat in my eyes.

This is not sarcasm or mean spirited, but a sincere question. dana and jaguar - if a school full of children and other innocents is taken hostage, will you be as quick to tell us that we don't understand the full complexity of the back story? or will you step up and condemn them as the animals they are?



Cleric condones methods

Lookout, I bet Jag and Dana reply with condemnations of these comments, but then proceed to do a 180 and tell us how badly treated Mr Mohammed has been through his life, and that we should sympathise with him.

I was, and still am, opposed to the war in Iraq, but if any misguided Muslims actually take Mr Mohammed's advice, and act upon it, I would condemn them (and their supporters), just as fiercely as the hostage takers in Beslan.

The guy is obviously after publicity, and said something extreme in order to provoke a reaction, but the trouble is that some idiot(s) might actually listen to him.

2004 - 1985 = 19 years. 5 Years??? Strange system. :eyebrow:

ah fuck the both of you. For a start, lookout, the chechen situation is entirely different to a hypothetical event that happens in the UK, if with your rather myopic vision you should be able to see that. The thing you don't seem to fucking get, either of you, is the difference between understanding and feeling their actions are just. I get why they took a school full of hostages, I don't think it's right or just, I never have said and maybe if I say it enough times you'll get it though your thick skulls that there is a significant difference in meaning. The thing is I honestly don't give much of a fuck about the morality of these things, when rubber hits road any sense of morality goes out the window on both sides, it's a nonissue. What I'm interested in is the why and how, solve those and you'll stop it happening, far more constructive that fawning over the dead and hollow condemnation.

It's interesting, particularly considering you've read that uni/multipolar article that you don't see what happened. For fucking the west has fucked with governments and people with impudy, with the exception of a couple of groups like the IRA it's been with zero risk to the homeland. This particular brand of Islamic fundamentalism has acted as a homing beacon to all sorts of pissed off types, some legitimate in basis (Chechnya, Saudi Arabia), some not (Spain, Australia). It's become a source of power in and of itself. It's religious extremity makes it both impossible to negotiate with and difficult to eradicate. A careful, planned, nuanced strategy executed by major European nations and the US could bring it under control in a decade or two, this war on terror shit is like kicking a hornet's nest then complaining when you get stung. If a group does decide to take over a school it'd be no loss to humanity if they all end up full of enough lead to use their dicks as pencils but it's not going to stop it happening again.

Gung ho 'human fillth waste the sandniggers' type shit got us here, the way out is far more delicate and requires patience and tolerance. React to attacks in a way that reduces the chances of them happening again, not sate the bloodlust of the general populace. Invading Afghanistan was the right idea, Iraq was not. Clearly the chances of that sinking in are pretty low. This is where democracy fails, the strategy that will bring this to an end will never be accepted by a populace that just can't fucking understand what is going on.

If a school full of children is taken hostage in the UK my first question is what the fuck are the police doing, they seem to be keen enough to curtail rights, if they can't stop attacks they should drop the fucking pretense and at least let the rest of us avoid living in 1984.

Let's have some fun, should this guy be allowed to say this stuff? Personally I'm not sure, this is where free speech meets anti-hate legislation, something I tend to dislike. Does this guy carry any weight? Hard to tell. Will he convince anyone to take up arms in the UK? I doubt it, at least not like this. If he is in other ways I'm sure we'll see pics of him being picked up by a team of MP5 wielding UK's finest soon enough.

If he's not a citizen he should be deported. Jag hits the crux of the issue. There is a differance between understanding why people do evil and condoning it. George Bush committed a similar evil using the camoflage of state legitamacy. Many folks here condone it and I understand the misplaced faith. We don't want Americans dying for illegitamit purposes so we try to tell ourselves that lives aren't being thrown away in vain and worse for the service of evil. I do believe that Christianity is superior to Islam, but I don't believe George is a Christian.

Why?

I think he means in a pragmatic modern 'which does more harm' sense than a theological one. At least I hope so. Not sure I agree on either.

Because Griff is a Christian? Because the suicide bomber who thinks Islam is 'superior' to Christianity is a Muslim? Because the fanaticist Protestant train bomber believes Catholicism to be inferior?

Jag is right in his condemnation of religious extremism. For as long as these militant purveyors of theocratic bullshit exist this 'war on terror' will never end. Because terror is not the issue. Religious intolerance is. Terror is merely a voice for their prejudice.

I have never been religious for that very reason. Apart from obvious fallibility issues anyone of some intelligence will understand, it causes such unecessary conflict - and no matter the religion. War and terror is not unique to Islam. Western (Christian) governments have been terrorising dissidents since the invention of the wheel. And all because 'my god is better than yours'.

With any high profile (or otherwise) terrorist situation, understanding is called for. Not the kind of caring, empathetic understanding you think we mean, lookout, but true understanding and knowledge that provides us with a backbone for discussion and a point to resolve. An event such as this, or any militant action, does not stand alone. You need to understand the motivation, purpose and reason in order to procure a logical response. Maybe then our underhanded propogandic war-hungry 'civilisation' will start to make some progress.

Welcome back! How was your trip?

Thanks! Won't go into detail to avoid a thorough threadjacking... will put together something Bill Bryson-esque when I get chance. But - in a word - fucking fantastic. Good to see you've been fighting the latin corner in the meantime.

Killing a week or so in Switzerland before I'm back off to the UK, mostly been too busy to post here while you were galavanting around the country ;) I'll look forward to the writeup.

No, back on topic. I don't think Griff is Christian, I could be wrong. Incidentally the wheel itself was a integral part of one of the Inquisition's more ingenious torture techniques. I don't think this guy is much worse than the 'we need Israel to become whole again at any cost to start the coming of the apocalypse and rapture' types which seem to occupy parts of the US.

Griff - if Christian you are not, my apologies. My point was merely to illustrate the absurdity of one religion claiming superiority over another. They're all just as fucked as each other.

'Killing a week' - that's an odd phrase isn't it, to kill time. Personally I don't have enough of the stuff, especially now I'm back in advertising la la land.

He is a Christian...he's Catholic.

Who are you? Yoda? :)

I believe that. You've consistantly displayed more concern for the interaction of political and mercantile forces than for people.
Yes, but remember Occam's razor. Don't make it more complicated than it is.
I’m far from an authority on any of this stuff but I have a gut feeling that won’t go away. The profiles of the “Islamic Terrorists” are all over the socio-economic map. Some come from places that the local pastime is counting sand pebbles and some come from major cities. Rich or poor, educated or ignorant, married or single and young or old (relatively). The common thread seems to be Islam. Even though the Islamics claim that’s not the way of Mohammed, there has not been a hue and cry, against the terrorists. So unless there is some reason(s), that makes each of the terrorist’s personal lives suck so badly, they will do anything to escape, it still points to Islam. :confused:

I'm not sure if that's meant to be a condemnation or merely an observation but yes. I think the best way to look after people is to look at what the threats are and deal with them, not get tied up in irrelevent emotive arguments.

But here's where semantics become important. Is Islam the driving force, or is Islam merely the outlet for that force. All extreme movements work by channelling hatred and anger at something, I honestly don't see too much difference, structural issues aside, between the nazi movement and Islamic fascism. Both work by taking a whole lot of pissed off people and giving them targets and justifications. Lots of varied reasons to be pissed, from personal to geopolitical, one joining force. Lots of these 'linked to al-queda' groups are linked by no more than common ideology. While I firmly believe if you remove the sources of that anger, many and varied as they are, the resulting movement will die all by itself. If however, you think that Islam itself is the force, look at it from a different perspective - why is this form is Islam suddenly so successful?

Also, there has been a hue and cry, many influential Muslim figures have waded in, Al Jazeera has pundits who condemn attacks, hell Hamas attacked the kidnappers of the French journalists. Just because it doesn't make the western and particularly the American media doesn't mean it doesn't happen. 'Moderate cleric condemns attacks as against Islam' just doesn't make a good headline doesn't it. I've been to Finsbry Park, that mosque famous for it's 'terrorists', there is a big campaign going on, funded entirely by donations from goers to educate the public about Islam by sending info packs to every public library in the country.

Not Yoda I am but Yoda I may be. ;)
(No, I don't get it either, just trying to sound wise. Sorry.)

Bruce, with that I agree (damn this Yoda stuff is addictive). There is a disproportionate amount of Muslims currently dominating the world terrorism 'scene' (dare I call it that). The only common denominator seems to be Islam, as you say. All I will say is that every dog has its day, and just because it is Islam on the affront today; there are many disparate avengers from yesterday and tomorrow.

Deserved repeating, jag, as you have picked out the backbone of my point. Thanks.

I believe that this source of their anger is their failure as a culture, as every other culture on the planet moves way, way beyond them. Allah was supposed to make them the powerful ones, and they are not, and it is a slow-burn proof that their very basis as a people is faulty and perhaps even their very belief system.

Their honor will not permit them to comprehend the true root causes of their failure as a society, and they are left facing a battle between fundamentalism and reformation. Fundamentalism permits them to claim that the true source of thair failure is the Other, the Jew, the West, the Unbelievers. You can see a similar misplacement of blame in other such hate groups in other countries. KKK = blacks/Jews are at fault... National Front = wogs of all varieties are at fault... and so forth. I believe their misplacement of blame is similar, except that it afflicts the majority of the population instead of just the moronic 1 or 2%..

So if it appears that the current hatred is because American women troops are in Saudi Arabia, take a step back and look at the root causes. The root causes ARE, in a way, their hatred of our "freedom" -- even though they don't SAY it like that, the very fact that women are not subjugated in the West is part of the West's economic and political power, and thus part of the Arabic failure... it's part of what happens when you don't force one half of your creative work force to stay at home and do nothing.

The only way they can escape these root causes is to reform, and join the rest of the civilized world and stop being such a fucked-up honor-based society, otherwise is it just going to get worse and worse and more little fundamentalist groups will get more and more power until the only alternative left, not just for the US but for the rest of the entire world, is to reform them harder with more and different kinds of force. This is not what I might advocate, I don't know, but you can bet it is what the rest of the world will inevitably demand.

In the end, whatever the solution is, it will never be. I believe that the human race can't live without anger, hate, war and so one. It always was like that and it will ever be like that.

You're telling me chechen rebels are blowing up school kids because of female troops in saudi? Sorry it's a little more complex that that, you're half right, half very wrong. The nazi's weren't a moronic 1 or 2% either. The factor is what turns the majority of a population at least burying their heads in the sand. There is a significant cultural problem but that's deeply linked to political stagnation, political power has long been linked to happiness of a population. Some governments used extreme Islam is keep close hold on the population, namely Saudi Arabia and Egypt, in a sense indoctrinating people in a similar way to Nazi Germany, the outcome there isn't too surprising. There is however a growing Islamic campaign aimed at bringing down the Saudi government, we are hearing piss all about regular firefights and attacks on the government. It's nothing to do with our freedom, it's to do with their lack of freedom. As for the honour based society, I'm not so sure. Look into Sharia banking, I find it very, very interesting, if I can, I'll consider opening an account in one of the new UK sharia-compliant banks.

How the fuck do you reform someone with force? That's like placating someone with a baseball bat, either you make them more pissed off or you kill them.

If someone held a school full of children hostage in the UK my response would I think be much the same as my response to the Russian school was. My response is two fold. First I am appalled at the situation and my feelings obviously run to the parents and also the children. Running alongside that would be the question, why would someone do this?

When the IRA had their bomb campaigns running on the mainland it was a source of worry. I lived near Manchester when that bomb went off. I walked past the damaged buildings when I went shopping in the city and everyone was nervous about Christmas shopping in major cities. Even in the larger towns like the I lived in had their share of scares and incidents. I spent a year working at a clothes store and recall vividly us having to evacuate the shopping centre on three seperate occassions because of bomb scares.

usually when the IRA bombed they gave warnings and chose the less busy times of the day to minimise casualties. But things go wrong and something went wrong one day in Warrington ( another town I feel connected to because I have relatives there) and a bomb went off early killing a young lad of 12. Didnt kill him outright, tore his face off and he died 12 hours later.

His father became one of the leading voices in the peacemovement. He has liased with men who have been involved in a terrorist war which killed his only son.

If one of my loved ones was killed or maimed bby terrorists would i still hold to the principles I espouse here? Or would vengeance stop my desire for understanding. I dont know. I would like to think I might have the courage that man had.

I love it. A nation which is content to hand down death sentences to children in capital cases and theyre the civilised world?

Ask if you can hand over your initial deposit to a woman... especially one who didn't have her clit cut off at age 6.

I went looking through the quran a little, to see what I could see and ran across these passages:

I'm not sure of the context of the placement, but it is in 4: The Women

88 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road.

Am I wrong or does this say that an unbeliever is an unbeliever at the will of Allah and thusly not to be converted?

89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Ok, so don't try to convert them, and don't be friends with them because Allah might convert them himself one day. Until that day though, kill as many as you like.

90 Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

This one is a bit confusing but I read it as saying that if they don't mess with you don't mess with them?

Now, IIRC the bible has equivalent passages. Wouldn't it seem that the only reason that people lash out from an ideological basis is because that is all that they feel they have?

It's hard to imagine Pat Robertson putting down his remote control and his cheetos and saying, "Damn those muslims it's time to go to war." It's hard to justify the sacrifice of all of the secular luxuries that we have as a society yet they have very little to give up.

In a nutshell, they have nothing to lose. We do.

Female genital mutilation is only really prevalent in Africa and is practically unknown in the Middle east. It also has sweet fuck all to do with Islam, in fact it's practised in many Christian areas of Africa as well. As for women, many do work, hell in Iran many are probably an better shot than you are. Boy doesn't it suck when you can't fall back on stereotypes anymore? Might even have to look at the real situation and notice that.....oh my god it's not the same everywhere.

Bullseye. It's columns like that that keep me buying the guardian.

Because western civilization, which we (most Cellarites) enjoy the fruits of, developed along with Christianity. Contemporary Islam has no such fruit. That said, fundementalists like Bush do not appreciate liberal western society and its focus on individual rights and responsibilities. Mostly though, I said it to head off our right wingers who always try to claim God for their side, reasoning that if they know God they know his will. My fellow Catholics know that the Pope opposed the War in Iraq while some of the bishops in the states tried to obsolve individual Catholic soldiers of responsibility for their actions, shifting it to their leaders. This was a Church failure. We are all responsible for our actions whether we are under arms or not. I may not be the best Catholic, but I have developed that thing which the Church is so good at developing, a conscience. We can fight about the flip side, guilt, another time. (I also carry the gift of sanctimony as I've been reminded a time or two.)

Something I was trying to get at is that one thing that has threatened western civilization for the past century is totalitarianism. The total state has advocates on the left and the right and they are both trying to end the progress of our civilization by controlling the progress of our civilization. The Republicans have jettisoned all their morals on this issue. If only the Democrats had the moral authority to step up.

Observation.
I was thinking of the American Islamic community. Sorry, I should have clarified that. :blush:

So you say, so some others say differently.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Sharia...cumcision.html

Apparently it's not in the Qu'ran but Mohammed taught it.

It sure isn't.

I don't know if that's as much an issue of Islam/Christianity as it is of certain cultures.

Boy that looks like an unbiased source. Couldn't you find something that wasn't a christian rant site? I mean really.

FGM isn't clear, I'll refer to probably the best reference, Anmesty.

FGM is much more cultural than religious and it's link to Islam is as questionable as it's links to Christianity.

Stoning can happen to anyone in Iran, what's your point. It's Iran, it's fairly backward hardline religious state. I wish we had a hardline religious christian state that literally interpreted the old testament for comparison, that'd be sight. I'm not sure how that really came up anyway, I was talking about Sharia banks in the UK, not Iran. BUt here's some interesting stats about women and education in Iran here

Good potted reference to sharia banking here.
It's the emphasis on ethical investing that interests me.

wrong on this account jaguar. the bedouin tribes throughout the middle east, do in fact perform female circumcision. granted, i've only been to saudi, oman, bahrain, and yemen, so maybe the rest of the middle east doesn't.

True, the bedouin do, I'm wrong on that count and dug myself a fun little hole. However, UT's assertion that's it's a commonplace part of islam and an islamic tradition is still seriously incorrect.

well, at some points this thread ahs moved into a christian vs. muslim thing. that is just a generic way of framing the situation. The terrorists may have different individual catalysts that send them to the local recruiting office, but what is pretty standard is that the organizations are anti-western. (if they want to call it anti-christian, then fine.) it isn't as simple as "they hate are freedom, let's kill 'em" but it isn't that complicated either. they do hate the western influence on their culture. they hate that their societies have been subjected to our products, advertising, factories, stores, immodest dress, equal rights for women, unbelievers, etc. these influences have changed their way of living. while many in their societies enjoy this, many others do not. they feel they have been robbed and their culture raped. who is to blame? the infidel west of course.

the majority of muslims operate the same way as christians and other faith groups do - let's convert them if we can but always acknowledge that we can co-exist. the two groups are in conflict with each other. unfortunately, the more visible activists are the ones who feel killing will accomplish A) converting us, or B) killing us, or C) making us uncomfortable enough so that we leave them alone and they can repair their society and bring it back to the place they want it. these are the people we fight.

Jag and Dana you seem to think that i don't see any justification or reason for their actions. i do not see them as irrational animals. i realize that they see their actions as reasonable and helpful to their cause. they (some) are highly intelligent, dedicated individuals. i also see them as the enemy. They want us dead or gone. We don't want to be dead or gone. it is a battle over who gets to achieve their desires. the centuries (or decade old in some cases) causes for the conflict don't matter. the battle and the outcome do. and in my view our side winning at the least cost in lives and expense on OUR side is the end goal. this is an us or them situation and i am more concerned with us. to be fair, i understand that you believe removing the catalyst, (poverty, lack of education, etc.) will end the conflict. unfortunately, an end to conflict is impossible. conflict is human nature.

it is important to remember that in my view man in imperfectable and there can be no such thing as world peace. someone will always be fighting and dieing in the name of some cause. my view is that we work to prevent the death from being inside our camp.

that wasn't meant as an "in your face nanana" comment. i just wanted to point out that it is very common. but i don't believe that it is common within main stream islam. unfortunately, our conflict isn't with main stream Islam.

Female genital mutilation was beaten into the ground a while back (some topic on Sidhe's forum which is now archived and I can't seem to find?), and generally strikes me as a dead-end topic of debate; there are very few unbiased sources in either direction w.r.t Islam. It is, in some ways, tantamount to convincing a large number of homosexual black jews that the KKK isn't representative of all of Christianity, and that they should maybe give it a chance.

By that I mean that the official scripture looks bad, and the public image of the religion sucks ass because the people who do it well are prototypically simple, happy, quiet, and not often the topic of columns or websites. Correcting this would require firstly an audience of willing people (some of y'all, nevermind Americans in general, seem a little on the "fuckit, let's just nuke the ragheads" side of things), and secondly someone better versed in the subject than either jag or I.

absotively, posilutely, 100% accurate.

I can respect that.

It will always be around on the micro level, but we can still aim towards peace on a macro scale.

Unfortunately, the leaders of our country chose to perpetuate violence and war (the invasion of Iraq) anyway.

aim towards it we should, but always with the full knowledge that any peace we find will only be short term. man is always at war with himself and those around him. it is the nature of man.

Just scanned thru this thread, and I have to say that I disagree with what seems to be the prevailing take - that this is a conflict which is caused at least in part by differences in faith. IMO, religion is the cloak which both sides use to justify what can only be ungodly actions to members of ANY faith. The Arab world has been upset with the western one since at least WWI (I won't even go into the business of the crusades which were not really about faith either). The Arabs who fought with T.E. Lawrence and rebelled against the Turks did so because of the British promise of the return of certain territories to Arab rule. This promise was broken before it was ever made. The creation of Israel did little to assauge the Arabs' feeling of betrayal by the West. Petroleum has literally become the fuel for that flame.

The entity which controls the petroleum supply by default will control the lion's share of the world's power and wealth. The financial backers of the various Muslim fundamentalist terrorist groups are interested in neither fundamentalism or the Muslim faith. Neither are the handlers of George Jr. interested in bringing democracy to the Arab world or Christ's message of salvation to the heathen.

What is happening here is a very high stake battle for worldly treasure conducted by men on both sides who pimp out the names of Jesus and Mohammed to further their own ends. The rest of us sing "Onward Christian Soldiers" or scream "Jihad!" leaving behind our orphans to put flowers on our graves and tell themselves that our deaths were not in vain, so the hatred can continue on unbaited by either side.

beautifully put Marichiko

Thank you.

You nailed it Mari. That manipulation is pretty common even going beyond religion. Whenever a blue blood President gets folksy you can expect the dying to start.

Don't know if that's true Mari, but it's as easy to build a case for your position as any others and easier than most. :)