Scouting, yea or nay?
 

We're getting some pressure to get the girls involved in a scouting organization. I never joined and always just assumed that scouting was based in early 20th century totalitarianism and a really bad idea. We may not let them do it just because there are many more valuable ways to spend time but my question is, is there more to scouting than submission to various social "virtues" as defined by the total state?

I was a Girl Scout and I loved it. Kids don't really look at the political aspect of it, but I understand your concern about those issues. My biggest issue with scouting is the problems a few years back about the boy scouts not allowing gay leaders. I don't know what the current stance is on that, but I think they lost a lot of support because of it. Anyway, I liked it as a kid, and the Girl Scouts still have the BEST cookies! :3eye:

I always thought about getting into a few girl scouts myself. :evil2:

I was never a girl scout in reality, but every year I would "join" (and my mother would pay my yearly dues) just before the summer so I could go to the girl scout summer camp, which was a lot of fun. But my impression has always been that Boy Scouts are much more educational and interesting, the girls seemed to do nothing but make arts and crafts and sell cookies. We certainly didn't have anything like Philmont.

The quality of the Scouting experience is about 97% based on the leadership of the particualr troop. I was a Boy Scout for years, in an awesome troop (Troop 666, of course), and had a blast. We had trips to New Mexico, Alaska, and Canada, in addition to monthly weekend camping trips and summer camps. We came into contact with other troops which seemed to be much less interesting.

My sisters were in Girl Scouts for a while, and despite my mom's best efforts, it was little more than a social club.

As for the politics, the Boy Scouts' position against gays and atheists remains, and is unlikely to change - the high positions in the organization are dominated by the Mormon Church. It didn't affect me much as a Scout, but it does annoy me now. The Girl Scouts are unencumbered by that problem.

I was a girl scout. As a consequence of this I am able to make a nice salad shaped like a bunny and know how to introduce people at a party and lay a table. They taught me nothing about pitching a tent or laying a fire that I didn't teach myself.

If you want further PC indoctrination for your girls, go for it. Oh, and don't forget the yearly ritual of the cookie sale. You can do without the cookie sale.

As a kid I always thought the Campfire Girls were doing cooler stuff than the Girl Scouts. Are they still around?

I have heard of a pagan organization called the Spiral Scouts that may or may not do more "real" scouting.

I was a Girl Scout too for several years and for me the meetings and activities seemed much like school for teaching values, but much more fun. Garnet's right, when you're that age it doesn't matter what the political ideals behind it are. You're more concerned with writing that simple program to get your Computer Science badge or your time spent helping out at a horse stable to get your Animal Care badge. The rewards you get as a kid in scouting are something you can feel proud about for the rest of your life, be it a sash full of pins and badges, the friends you make, knowledge of the places you go...I say go for it. If they simply don't like it, take them out of the program and no harm done.

The political ideas are important ... even/especially if the child doesn't understand them. That way they accept these ideas without questioning. "Give me your children until you are 12 and they will be mine forever." (isn't that how the saying goes?)

Some kids can break free of the indoctrination, if they are sharp enough and start to question early enough.

This outfit looks worse in the other direction. I didn't want to color folks reactions before mentioning the group. It's the Little Flowers a Catholic outfit which seems more reactionary with each further bit of info I find. It appears that they want to drive women back into the kitchen for tea parties etc... I won't be doing this to my kids. Pete did the girl scouts and to her it felt like homework. I love the Church but I recognize that parts of her can be cultish and manipulative. This subset doesn't look healthy to me. Before I looked into it I assumed the LFs were older than they are and maybe a reaction to the statist indoctrination from Boy/Girl scouts, Hitler Youth, Stalins bunch or whoever. It appears that its just an anti-modernist outfit.

although I wasn't a girl scout.. I was in scouting from cubscout on to life rank in boyscouts.. for me it was a very very rewarding experience.. although, I have always thought thta there ought to be a gender neutral scouting group... although that obviously has logistical problems (mush less people being weird about their children being around members of the oppposite sex when there is a percieved lack of 'supervision'.. although that is understandable.)

A good deal of my friends who are female went to girlscouts and are of the general opinion that boy scouts would have been much more fun (and a lot less 'crafty' and more usefull).

my main problem was with the religious aspect of it.. but then again I got to be the kids who stayed back at camp while everyone else was at 'church' to tend the fires.. foreshadowing :) perhaps?

(and sweet jeebus! how many times can yo using kum-by-ya-my-lord anyway?)

Old me:
Who cares?

New me (politically aware and active parent:
Boy Scouts: :thumbsdn:
Girl Scouts: :thumbsup:

I was so upset about the very public stance of BSA against gays and non-allegiance-swearing Christians that I stopped donating through the United Way of Central Maryland (because a small portion of my donation would have inevitably found its way to BSA) and wrote many letters to United Way and local print media to explain why.

I have also worked to limit BSA's access to free use of public facilities and access to our children through the sending of flyers via sneaker net (stuff sent home with kids in school folders -- implying the endorsement of the school system). I know I am an extreme case, after all, I have no direct connection with the gay rights movement, or with BSA, but this kind of complicit support by public institutions, and the use of tax dollars to promote organizations involved in blatant discrimination gets my goat.

If you are interested in this situation, here are some useful links:
http://www.scoutingforall.org/index.shtml
http://www.ffrf.org/issues/?t=bsa.txt

(disclaimer: I am not completely familiar with the organizations which published these items; they're just good starting points to explore this issue.)

Sorry about the rant. As far as I know, Girl Scouts has come a long way from the 'social meetings' some of us remember from our long-ago childhoods, and sets the standard for values and skills based member organizations for kids. As with other volunteer-driven organizations, the experience for each kid will depend largely upon the effectiveness of the local leaders.

I applaud the Boy Scouts desire to stand true to their charter and founding ideals.

Have you looked in depth into the curriculum and seen what activites are available? There's a lot more than what it seems you've seen or heard about. When I was going through, it wasn't like tea parties, women in the kitchen, sew the clothes, make the dinner and submit to the husband stuff and I was in the Scouts for about 5 years and I was already a gender stereotype rebel at that age. I spent most of my time doing arts and crafts and moving along in technology and focusing on animal care. Hardly tea, very much a party. There are times when they teach girls 'manners', things like politeness, how to set a table, yes there are cooking curriculums. But these things aren't 'girl' things when it comes down to it. For example, understanding of mixing things and cooking lead to easier comprehension of chemistry (it did for me anyway, got me through the class in high school). At a business dinner, it's always good to know what fork to eat with first. Anyway, you can tell your kids that what they learn in Scouts is more guidelines than rules. As for me, I can confidently say that if I hadn't gone through the technology interests at that time, I wouldn't be in graduate school working towards an info. systems masters right now.

Scouting is not for everyone, consult your family doctrines before use.

I'd actually be curious as to what modern day girl scout activities are. Looking back, in my day there was a bit too much emphasis on arts and crafts and "girly" stuff, so I wonder if in reality that's changed much. My troop was big on camping trips, though, and we always got nature and science information on those trips. But you're right, it depends A LOT on who's in charge. It's not always a win-win situation.

I can't believe you didn't treat us to this at forks! :yum:

I was a cub scout in Arizona in the 70s. That was cool. I was new to the area, Tuscon, and I met a lot of people that way. We went on lots of hikes and camping trips. It was a lot of fun. There were several big events each year.

I joined the boy scouts in Maine a few years later, and it sucked. Lots of boring small den? meetings and fund raisers. Had to do things to get merit badges etc. Never did get to go on any trips there. We just spent a lot of time reading the manual and talking about boy scout stuff. I quit after one year.

In hindsight, I would concur that it depends on who the leaders are.

Our next door neighbors in here are big into the girl scouts. Every summer, they have half a dozen tents in their back yard. The gilrs seem to have fun, but I would rather go camping in the wilderness. It looks like it's all social for them.

I'll think about making it next year. It's actually quite complex. It's an arranged salad. Individual plates. You can see how it's not quite a forks-fit ...

Me too. They can stand for it all they like, but I don't want to support it with my tax dollars (indirectly, through their use of public spaces for meetings, school staff and resources to send flyers home to students) or my donations that arre intended for other organizations (which is how United Way of CM sends out a portion of all its proceeds).

As the lone dissenting Girl Scout in my troop I was roughly grabbed from my bunkbed at dawn and tied to the totem pole. I managed to escape in time for Hunter's Stew and S'mores. At Resident's camp (2 weeks, semi-primitive) I was forced to make jam and candles. It was, all in all, a terrifying time to be a girl.

I thought it was 7. :confused:

My friend Kurtis, who lurks here from time to time was a Boy Scout Master for a while and I will encourage him to read this thread and state his positions. He may or may not know much about the Girl Scouts, but can speak well on the Boy Scouts and you can parse what he says to apply to the GS.

Brian

I'm guessin' you did something really naughty to deserve that.... :)

I recall stealing marshmallow's and eating so may Nacho Cheese Dorito's that I had projectile vomiting. Other than that... :)

OK, before NBN gets here, how old were you when you were tied to the totem pole, and what were you wearing? :p

The last company I worked for used to do a big fundraiser in December every year, and give the proceeds to the United Way. That came to a crashing halt when people got wind of the Boy Scout policy about gays. I think they give all the money to PETA now. (Just kiddin'!!!! :o) Does anyone know if the Boy Scouts still gets any funding from the United Way?

Are you asking me??

I was 12 and I believe I had on the traditional boxer shorts and tank top--my sleep wear to this very day (if anyone cares...and if anyone is barfing at the thought-I humbly apologize. Humbly.)

My Girl Scout experience was great from what I recall. Loved the cookie drive (lol who doesn't...never mind someone here might actually answer that). Didn't care that we didn't learn all the "outdoor" stuff. Lets face it: an all black GS troop is NOT trying to become outdoorsmen (women), so all of the "girly" stuff was fine with us. We went camping ONCE and stayed in a cabin with running water and toilets. Don't give a fuck that some ppl would not call it "real" camping...it was to us. Slept in sleeping bags...hated it. Guess I'm too much of a city gal. Need 4 walls, a bed, cable TV, room service, etc. ;)

I was a brownie, but couldnt handle much else. I enjoyed organized sports more- softball, swimming. I did like girl scout camp. I went even after I dropped out of the year round stuff. There was a wilderness challenge, 4 of us( I'm guessing age 11 or so) spent the night on a mountain in PA alone with no adults, (within screaming distance of the base camp) but we had to build a lean-to, dig a latrine, build fires, store the food in a tree. The site was checked the next day and we got a certificate. I remember being very jazzed to make it through that program. In adolescence, I went to a few church camps of various denominations, just to go with a friend, co- ed, purely social, prepubescent thrills, vespers and all that.

I think the camping experiences that build independence and cooperation, with a respect for nature are great. But you dont need scouting to give that to a kid. Sounds like youse do that pretty regularly as a family. I have a coworker here that has a teenage daughter that takes on a new wilderness challenge each summer. This year it was a 3 week long portage from MN into Canada. With just a small group. it was quite an accomplishment. Mom swears its been so great for her daughter's confidence, patience, all around maturity.

And I think the only other good thing about some scouting would be the building of some sense of social responsibilty- opportunities to volunteer, help others. But again, you can foster that with out the whole organized scouting thing, more effectively.

I too was a Brownie and then briefly a girl scout. We had fun, went on a few camp outs to different places and I recall learning to start a fire and such. When we moved to California (when I was 9) I tried to join the local girl scout troop and was told unanimously by the other girls that I wasn't welcome to join and I should just leave. Life is to short to put up with bitches like that, so I didn't join. Thus ended my girl scout days. I too believe the experience you have in the scouts has a great deal to do with the scout leader.

I was a girl scout and it was a pretty fun experience for me. I don't recall being indoctrinated with any more nazi values than what the culture around me was trying to heap on my head. My group did some pretty fun things and every summer I spent some time camping at the local girl scout ranch. I liked getting all the badges, and it WAS educational to do the work to get one. I learned how to make something I call "girl scout stew," and it is a featured item in my camping menu to this very day!

Kids in my neighborhood must have been slower than in yours.

I started in Tiger Cubs (the program for 1st graders), went through Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, got my Eagle award, spent some time in the Explorers and as an adult leader and finally ended my association with the BSA in 1996. Most of the time, it was a blast. I met some great people and learned a lot.

Of course, the St. Louis council had a bad molestation problem in the mid-80s...two of my friends were victims.

The BSA has the right to have whomever they want in their organization. After all, it's a private organization, and they shouldn't be forced to accept gays or atheists. But they should rely strictly on themselves or businesses for funding, not the UW. When the Philadelphia council threw out a gay Eagle Scout, the UW took their money away...not sure if that stood or not. And based on what I know about the Scouts now, I wouldn't allow any child of mine in the program...and I'll never rejoin. The Girl Scouts don't seem to have nearly as many problems as the BSA, but their schtick seems much the same.

Griff, you and Pete seem to have this parenting thing down to a science. I bet you and your family and friends could easily show your kids anything they could learn in Scouts.

I have experienced serious disruption in my worldview by learning that Sycamore is an Eagle Scout?!

I am forced to go into a period of meditative seclusion.

Don't you mean medicated seclusion?

And yes, I am an Eagle Scout...earned it in 1991.

Beer's a medication.

I have a prescription.

Yeah? Try waking up to that reality on a sunny Suday morning! I dunno, I worry that Fucking Idiot ™ will lose some of its impact when the recipient knows it's coming from an Eagle Scout.

The only Eagle Scout I knew personally, murdered his parents and brother. :eyebrow:

Thanks, Bruce, you've set me straight again.

Every man I ever dated was either an Eagle Scout or a son of clergy. (And there were only two sons of clergy in there!) And I swear to god I wasn't seeking them out. Usually I'd only find out after we were dating.

My husband, however, was the only one who was ever an Eagle Scout AND a son of clergy. :D

"The only one who could ever teach me...was the son of a preacher man..."

99, you could look at it like that. Or...you could look at it as the good little Eagle Scout throwing you off when he calls you a "Fucking Idiot™."

The den mother for the girl scout troop my wife used to belong to and her daughter got into some trouble involving (attempted?) murder and prostitution. I don't remember the whole story.

Prostitution and Girl Scouts...I guess it was only a matter of time. Yikes!

Did they play Son of a Preacher Man at your wedding? :band:

..or Fly like an Eagle?

They probably played the Electric Slide, just like at every body else's damn wedding.

How many of your elderly female relatives fell down trying to make the turn?

My parents did not allow me to be in scouts - they made me be in 4-H instead. You don't have to have livestock to belong to 4-H - I lived in a city. 4-H was probably the coolest thing I've ever belonged too - I learned how to cook and how to give presentations on the wonders of cooking lamb.

I think we have a winner. Griff, I think 4-H might be the perfect fit for your girls.

I was in 4-H as a kid. It was a ton of fun. I enjoyed it so much I became a leader in my 4-H group when I got to old to stay as a member. The downside to 4-H is its the parents, etc who are leading the different projects so if you kid is interested in sewing for example and no one is a leader for that project either its too bad so sad or you gotta lead it yourself. The upside is there are often a dozen or more different projects a club has going on, and if there is something odd your kid is interested in but its not an "official" group, 4-H lets you make a group up. Example: In my 4-H group we had a pack goat project. All these kids who had pet goats taught them to carry a small pack and the kids would go on hikes and have the goats carry some water and such. It got the fat pet goats some exercise (as well as the kids) and was a fun thing for the kids to teach the goat to do. Wasn't an official project but the kids still got credit for it and seemed to have fun.

As a 4-Her, I decided that I was going to sew a pair of shorts and exhibit them at the fair. These shorts were soooo ugly - they were made with this fabric that said "Say No to Drugs" and one leg was wider than the other. I think I got a red ribbon - 2nd place - but it was definitely out of pity.

Ah I remember 4-H. The summer camp I went to and was a junior counselor for was all kinds of fun, with the exception of the one other kid who was trying to get in my pants the whole time. Fortunately, I was able to swim so I could stay in the deep end of the swimming pool while he could only try and coax me to the shallow end from behind 'The Line'...the sucker.

two thoughts:

a. Wouldnt award winning "just say no" handcrafted shorts fit well into Bruce's collection?

b. What are the 4 hs, again?

4-H came up while we were on the ride. We're chewing on that, thanks for the input. I'm still having trouble with Syc as an Eagle Scout.

I was a boyscout for years in a Mormon scout troop. I had a lot of fun camping, going on canoe trips, learning skills, earning badges, going on hikes, bike rides, etc. I hope my future kids get into it, although I'll try to find a secular troop.

i think i learned more about peer leadership, integrity, and self-respect in the boy scouts that anywhere else. and yes, I made eagle.

-sm

I believe its Head, Heart, Hands, and Health but its been a few years since I did anything with 4-H so I could be wrong.

I'm an eagle scout too ... I was a scout for seven years - longer than most because my scoutmaster let me join the troop early since my older brother was already a member.

I loved the experience - fantastic trips, more opportunities to get out and do great things than any other activity a teenager normally does. If they can keep politics out of the organization, it's a great place and I highly recommend the experience for boys. Of course if I were a parent, my concerns would be different, but I'm not, so this is what I think.

My brother was also allowed to join early because I was in it, but the leaders of another troop in the area complained to the district and had him kicked out until he got old enough. Jerks.

Here's something a little scary...

Scouting in the Islamic Community
Background

Scouting serves an important role in the Islamic community. Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops, and Venturing crews operated by Islamic organizations can be found in major cities throughout the United States.

In 1982, the National Islamic Committee on Scouting (NICS) was formed by a group of concerned Muslims who represented many national Muslim organizations. Primarily, the NICS is responsible for formulating policies that govern the formation of Scouting in Islamic organizations and for guiding their cooperation with the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America. The NICS also establishes policies affecting the participation of Muslim men and women in Scouting through Islamic centers and mosques and advises the BSA National Council in all matters relating to Scouting among Muslims.

why is that scary? there are similar organizations for just about every religious group in scouting - Jewish, Hindu, Mormon, Methodist, etc.

Scouting is very sectarian, within a basic monotheism.

Yeah, but think of the recruiting possibilities...

Probably no better, and probably much worse, than a madrassa.