At what point are you legally obligated to pay royalties
 

At what point in a protected song's duration are you legally liable for royalties. Is there a tme limit, say, you can distribute the first 20 seconds of a song without paying?

I'd like to make an animation with some popular songs playing in the background.

Is anyone up on this?

If you aren't charging for the viewing of the animation, I think it falls under "fair use". I think.

That would be great. It would kinda sorta advertise a gunshop though.

In that case, you might have to worry that, if the owner of the song found out you were using it, and they were anti-gun, you might have a problem on your hands. I've always wondered about Rush Limbaugh's use of "Back to Ohio" by the Pretenders as his main theme. I figure he pays for it, and so can use it how he wants.

Your use is intended to promote a for-profit enterprise, and I would think that cuts you out of Fair Use.

There's no legal time limit that sets "fair use". The limit is “recognizable content.” If a reasonable person can recognize that your content involves or derives from someone else’s work, then you have to pay royalties.

The fair use exemptions are, under the statute, very vague. Derived satirical use, news reporting use, some educational uses are allowable. The difficulty is that if the content you’re using is under the control of a large company, like Sony or EMI, they’re going to sue you for infringement regardless of whether the use is fair or not. They’ll litigate because they have the deeper pockets and the better lawyers, and they figure that a shot at a settlement is better than a possible missed royalty.

One other thing to remember. If you’re pulling your audio from a pre-recorded source, there are two pieces of intellectual property involved. The law recognizes a distinction between the song and the sound recording. Let’s say you’re using the song “Look Away” by Chicago, but you hire your friend to sit in his basement and remake the song using a banjo and a washboard. You need to clear the rights to the song only, and there’s a statutory rate set by law that lets you do that.

Now let’s say that you don’t much like your friend’s washboard playing, and decide you want to use the original Chicago recording, primarily because of the beautifully crafted 80’s synth parts. You still need to clear the song, but now you also need to clear the rights to the sound recording, the actual version recorded by Chicago, and there’s no statutory rate set by law for that. Whoever owns that sound recording is free to charge whatever they want, or to refuse permission.

And if this thing is going to touch TV, then trust me, they will track you down. There are people here in LA whose whole job is to watch TV channels from around the world and keep track of every single piece of intellectual property that gets used.

-sm

Boy that sounds like a stimulating career option. If it's old enough it might be in public domain but the media industry is doing it's best to snuff out such commie pinko concepts.

Good thinking but not in this case. The song is actually a disco version of a song from 1988.

This particular un-named song lends itself to the storyline of as animation that lasts about 2 minutes. There are moans, shouts in pain and synth solos that make it fit all that much more into what I have in mind.

The portion of the song is only the "buildup" for the actual song though. It's obvious what song it is even before the "real song" starts though, so it seems that it wouldn't fit into SM's description of fair use.

The climax of the proposed animation is having a 50 cal round, shot by a marine sniper team in Iraq (or somewhere in the middle east), explode the head of OBL. Not exactly someting I'd like to go through the hassle of explaining, let alone trying to get legal permission for.

Would using the music with no affilliation or identification possibly decrease the chances of litigation?

This is more complicated than I expected and I havent even started the modeling for the animation.

You can always do it for the educational experience it represents ... stick to that story if anyone ever notices.

You think the viking kitties guys asked Led Zep for permission?

well, if you're asking "will I get caught" that's obviously a different question than "how do I legally."

Will you get caught? I dunno. If the owner of the property is a major publisher, distribution house, or label, and if the final product touches TV, movie, or major website, then yes. you probably will. It doesn't matter if you don't credit it, they don't rely on credit rolls, they rely on software and viewers who scan media for protected property.

-sm

subtle

Looks like I'll be tapping Jethro on the shoulder and hanging out in his cellar then.

I might take the chance in using the music, but the owner of the gunshop might not be too happy if the shit hit the fan. Even more frightening, his wife definitely wouldnt.

Thanks for the advice SM.

slang, just so you know, you're liable as the creator. Not just the guy who commisioned you, and payed for and broadcasts the spot, but you personally as the guy who created it.

I'm not the morality cops here, but you should head into this with eyes wide open.

-sm

But it could actually make the song better.

Just to clarify here, the advertisment would be on the net only. The original idea was to have the clip available from the gunshop's website. Just to add a "wow that's cool" kinda appeal for the visitors.

So, now I'm working on a new delivery concept that might not have a tag team of lawyers at our doorstep. It's going to kill the original appeal but given the realities of producing this type of thing, it seems like the best option.

What if I could program the download format to launch ITunes and set up the sale of the song I set the animation to? Complex? Absolutely. A hassle for new users or people that dont pay for *any god damn thing* on the net, unfortunately, yes.

Think about this. I have an animation that is an advertisement for the shop available for download on our site. I give a couple of screenshots as the promo.......for the promo. It costs $.99 to watch with music but is free without it. I could explain the legality of the situation and that the $.99 isn't going to me but is actually selling them the song that the animation is set to, so that the original artist is getting a piece of the pie and the RIAA isn't loading up legal ammo to shut the site down.


So, you could download the animation from our site without the music...big yawn....or buy the song that goes with it through ITunes and have *their copy* of the song play. That way there really isnt any protected code embedded into the clip, it just queus up the song to play with the clip. The user gets the copy of the song as a benefit of viewing the clip and if they happen to already have that tune, the program plays finds it on their machine and plays it to the animation with their copy of the music, free.

From either option, we arent liable for any infringement because we dont provide the music. We, in fact become a sales agent for the song and contribute to it's revenue. If the viewer doesn't have the song, they have the option to buy it.....and that enhances the experience of the gunshop's animated adverisement.....and if they already have it, they don't have to mess around. This, in an extrememly small way, might encourage people to use the ITunes system. They get to keep the music, worry free after viewing the clip and get familiar with the system.

I know there are a large number of people that think that everything on the net should be free and they never buy a god damned thing. That's fine. From my experience though, "non payers...not under any circumstance god damnit" types have the potential to see the benefits. A friend of mine was like this a year ago, and thought I was the dumbest mother fucker on the planet for paying for anything on the net. He doesn't have a probelm with the payment protocol and security issues, just that you shouldn't have to pay for anything on the net. Now a year later, after hooking him up with a few subscriptions, is handing me cash money to renew them as he sees their value.

It seems to me there is the same potential for our advertisements, although it looks very complicated at this time.

Don't do it. You will annoy people.

Don't set up any of the pages to automatically play any music.

It makes people crazy. Okay, it makes ME crazy, and you know how easygoing I am. I am merely extrapolating to "people."

Now, on the other side of it ... sounds like any proposal that requires charging people to view the ad will result in people not viewing the ad. I don't think that the interface to be able to get people to buy the tune and then view the ad will be anything other than a colossal pain in the nuts to set up.

(Of course, I would enjoy seeing the piece itself, music or no)

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen not to mention a right pain the ass to code. Considering how it would have to interact with iTunes I don't even know if it'd be possible without a custom plugin, not to mention requiring iTunes to start with.
Is this clip in flash?

That aside, while this has some appeal for the converted don't expect the idea of making customers pay to view your advertising material take off, hell software to block bloody ads is a small industry these days. I subscribe to a few sites (Salon for example) but so far, it doesn't seem to be a very successful business model outside porn. I mean even the registration thing on most newspapers is starting to look like a bad idea, I know I can't be fucked going though registration to view a single damn article and plenty of others do the same. A lot of people use services like BugmeNot to get around it as well, it's a great way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Makes me crazy too. So you're not alone.

Second only to pointless annoying badly made flash intro movies, particularly the occasional ones without skip buttons, sure way to piss off potential customers before they even view your site.

I don't think you people understand though...people up in slang's neck of the woods aren't familiar with such flashy and technically complicated items. It could work for him...for a while.

Ok, I see from the comments I havent explained this very well.

The visitor goes to a specific area in the site that offers animations. The page shows screen shots of the animation, with an option to download with sound, which would take you to the ITunes for the song download. If you choose to watch the clip with sound, you buy the song for $.99 and then a program loads the song and the clip to play at the design speed together. The action follows the music as intended and the clip is that much more appealing.

Why would a visitor want to see an ad? This will not be the traditional "buy our shit" type of ad. It will be an animated scene or group of scenes of something interesting to shooters. It would likely include some scenes from local shooting events or personalities. The target quality will be that simllar to game quality rendering. At the end of the scene, of which the local shooter recognizes something or somewhere that they have actually been to, there is a fade out scene that says something like "brought to you by AGA". The appeal is seeing something gun related or local rendered into a commercial quality clip.

Would the page play music? No. I know how annoying this is and I wouldn't even think of making a page like that. I have never experiences a sound page like that that doesnt drive people away, and that's not what I intend to do.

After thinking a bit more and reading the comments though, it may be a bit more practical to announce that the next clip will be using the music file "such and such" and if you wanted to experience the clip as it was intended, you might want to buy the song yourself beforehand.

At the point that the visitor downloads the clip and has already purchased the music, the program could then simply run the audio and the visual as was designed, with the scenes reacting to the music, beat, etc.

If the visitor doesnt have and doesnt want to see the clip with music, that's fine and the download would also be available. Seeing anything without the sound takes a major part away from the total viewing appeal though, and I wouldnt think that there would be that much of a demand.

Also, the music could alternate from a short list of songs, so if you wanted to see a future clip, say 6 months from now, you might already have the required music to match the clip.

Will it fly? I dont know. I do know that people like to see original and interesting flash or animation typres of videos. There are very few such animations available specifically of shooting and shooting sports. That in inself says a lot. This may be an opportunity to gain a niche market or a major waste of time for the user.

Regardless of the demand, it will showcase my capabilites in modeling and creating videos which may very well be beneficial to me in potential contracts for non-related advertising clips.

There is still much to be done in this project and it's success is unclear. I believe it merits more research at this point. If I can offer this type of ad, it may very well lead to other possiblities for me and for the shop.

For example. Do you think the NRA has the ablility to pay for this type of work? Also, other manufacturers do give promotional money for commercial advertising, including websites. I think Glock USA has the money and the motivation to hire someone like me, a dedicated Glock user, to make clips, headers and other software related products to promote their products. Not some California liberal tech guy, me. A die hard firearms guy with some modeling and tech skills.


Jag: I have the capability to make flash and Avi clips although the flash is somewhat limited in the resolution. The Avi can be rendered in large size though, with decent res.

sidenote: saved by previous fusterclucks. After I typed all this I went to post and it said I wasn't fucking logged in. Good thing I save. :biggrin:

:haha:
Slang, don't you have some schoolwork to do?

This *is* the schoolwork now. The final project.

The tough part, show em I lernt someting (gulp).

You only have to do enough to show them you're a wacko gun nut and they'll be afraid to flunk you. :eek:

Considered you've mentioned previously your target audience isn't on fast connections or great machines a bigass avi might not be that wise. I'm still very iffy about whether this is technically possible, it's certainly not something I'd attempt, put it that way and I've made and am making some fairly damn complex web apps using the edge of most available tech both client and server side (php, shockwave, flash, jscript, DBs, QT and combinations of the above).

As for work, remember there are one sweet buttload of talented designers out there with folios that are awe inspiring and have pro training in brand management and doing design work in a commercial environment, if Glock wanted a campaign, they'd turn to their favorite agency who would recommend someone or put together a team. If you want to know what the best look like take a gander at the kind of stuff on Styleboost and the folios on NewsToday, if you can't work out how they were done in under 30 seconds, you're probably not in the running. The NRA et al might be interested in the some free stuff but at the end of the day it's down to pro skill, not political views.

You have nothing invested in seeing me make it at *something* Jag. You see a hundred reasons why I can't do something, I see two hundred why I can. There's no use in debating, we are both right.

There is no doubt that there is a tough path ahead of me. There is also no doubt in my mind that I can find a way to do something substancial with the site.

In any case, I have installed the PHP nuke and am struggling through the programming end of it. You originally suggested the post-nuke and I installed it onto the server then deleted the uninstall accidently, said fuck it, and went with php nuke. I love it. Thanks for the advice. You're really not a bad guy and I appreciate your honest advice.

I have so much to do it overwhelms me. Time for me to get busy and make something happen. As things progress, I'll report in.

Take care

slang

Sorry if I came across a tad negative, it's just I have a lot of contacts in design and know how fierce the competition is and how many talented designers are looking for work. While I'm sure you're perfectly capable I just felt it's best you go into this, if you're serious, with both eyes open.

As for post/phpnuke, postnuke is a fork of phpnuke, it's been a while since I touched either (I use my own CMS, I find it more flexible) but postnuke was formed due to consistant unpatched security issues in phpnuke, things might have changed but it'll be worth checking before you take it live, there were bots around that could auto-root PHPnuke sites. If you need help with any of this, as always, drop me a line.

I think the biggest difference between whether or not a company or label will come after you depends on if you (or the person using the music) plans on making money with it. You see people ripping songs, images and other intellectual property left and right on places like Newgrounds and Albinoblacksheep and other web animation hubs. But none of them are seeling anything, they're just showing off animation skills (or lack thereof), telling a story, trying to make you laugh...or cry...bottom line is no one's making money from it. And fairly often, the animators somehow credit the music or images within.

If a company finds their song is being used to sell something and that something isn't in line with the company image or that something is making money and they're not seeing any of it, THEN they'll be on you like white on rice.