Scare yourself
 

It might be useful.

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/...&articleid=711

I don't know what's scarier ... the story of the flight itself, the apparent media blackout of such events, or the lack of action ...

Interesting. I doubt it was a media blackout per se, more of a noone asked and we didn't tell situation. They may also have been hoping to monitor each dry run to get the technique down pat so they knew what to look for and ID as many potentials as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if there was hidden camera in the toilets on the next flight they took. My guess is there are levels of intel going on here we don't know about.

Of course theres always the possibility that the story was less than honest. A story about scary arabic men gathering on a plane to do harm. We are supposed to take at face value the woman's assertion that she is not racist and has travelled with muslims before. Interestingly she has a Jewish surname and as far as I am aware there is little love lost between the two faiths and plenty of reason for one to add to fuel to the fires which are currently burning. Much as there are articles aplenty in the Arabic world which focus on Jews as the villain of the piece.

Or they're all just too busy rehearsing Christmas songs to catch any subversives.

Incidentally, I'll be catching a flight in a few hours. The last time I went to Phoenix, I lost two or three really great wrenches because we were running a little late and I forgot to take my bike tools out of my backpack.

Really, that's what worries me about traveling. A more fundamentally American (conservative capitalist) fear: that the regulations designed to protect me will instead tear from my grasp some of my Precious Stuff.

I realize she claims she's not a racist by citing some other trip she took, but that doesn't change the fact that she, well, is; the centerpiece of her argument seems to be race. It would be excusable if she were discussing a fundamentally race-based issue (yarmulkes), but it's just unnecessary here. <i>Any</i> 14 men who boarded an airplane separately but interacted as a group would have been cause for alarm. 14 <a href="http://imdb.com/title/tt0208092/">Jewish</a> men, even. But by calling them "men of middle-eastern decent" every time they sneeze she suggests that their race is important. She cites the language they speak along side how they act, as if it were just as damning; if racism isn't fear brought on by someone's place of origin and spoken language, what is?

Well said Skunks

One hopes the Washington Post reporter who talked to her came away with the same conclusion and did do the followup with the FAA.

To my mind, militant Islamism is more of an offense to humanity than racism; and to offend people from other societies in the name of safety less of an offense than having thousands of people rudely killed in the name of a religious power grab.

Racism, in the USA, is yesterday's problem; militant Islam is what made race irrelevant in America on 9/12/01 and a few months after. Did you know that not one Arab was killed in retaliatory anger in the USA?

I seem to remember some mosque bombings and the like.

So that justifies racism?

To expand on skunks point a little - I doubt there would be many more terorism-safe ways to travel by plane than on arabian airline full of muslims, not exactly a tempting target for islamic extremeists.

Bit of a side question but I know in that situation the first thing I'd do is go to the toilet and search it, throughly, for anything odd. How would others react?

"Racism, in the USA, is yesterday's problem; militant Islam is what made race irrelevant in America on 9/12/01 and a few months after"

What about racism against Arabic men ( in particular) who are swept up in fishing expeditions by the police, or dragged in off the streets to be whisked off to Syria for "questioning" ? I dont mean "moslem" men though many are, I mean men who look to be of Arabic descent.

Personally I think Islamaphobia is an equal and equivalent threat to world peace as Islamic fundamentalism. Islamaphobia leads us westerners into some very dubious practices, all in the name of freedom and safety and each one driving a further wedge between the East and West. In the West bigotry towards those who follow Islam ( or even look as if they might ) is routine and extreme.

And......you seriously suggesting to me that racism is no longer a problem in America? I find that difficult, nay impossible to believe.



Hmmm. what would I do in that situation? Whoo. Toughy. Maybe I would be really resourceful and calm......or maybe I would just curl into the feotal position and cry......no way to know

Not one Arab killed.

Astonishing isn't it?

Easy enough if you're white and live in the suburbs.

"Not one Arab killed."

Are we now measuring levels of racism on the number of deaths?

Here's what I don't get: dozens of flights have been grounded or canceled entirely because of vague intelligence that there might be a terrorist act on the plane. Nowadays just a one-way ticket is a HUGE red flag. 14 Arabic men with one-way tickets, and the flight left the ground? And the flight attendant told her they were "surrounded" by air marshals? I thought usually there was one, maybe two. This seems very much like a sting operation, they knew these guys were up to something and let it continue in the hopes of catching them in something big.

See this is what I was saying, it was a canned operation.

Look at the evidence: the most racist thing on this thread was said by a Brit:
Better check yourself.

Arabs are an ethnic group, not a race.

Racism here is yesterday's problem...Goddamn...that was funny. It's still alive and well and just as relevant on 7/17/04 as it was on 9/10/01. All we did on 9/11/01 was put another problem on our plates that we should have added years before.

"something big" as in--We blew up the plane? Any action then would kind of be inadequate, wouldn't it?

Brianna, they might have accessed information that confirmed it was a day run, they might have had a camera watching the toilets, they might have had someone on the plane who went into the toilets to make sure. The number of air marshalls makes it fairly certain it was a sting.

seems more like a secret shopper kind of a thing. from her description, the arabs were being fairly obvious. perhaps they were involved. trying to see what the reaction of the airport security and flight team would be. the marshalls may have been there to protect the arabs from any would be heros.

just a thought

See? I had you down for the 'come close to wetting your pants, and rush to the bathroom to pee' sort. then again, i imagine that you would tell that story to your neighbor passengers so you look cool. "I just had to go check and make sure they weren't builiding a bomb in there, ya know." :)

I think I would do what that lady did......tell the attendant what i had seen, and cooperate.

ouch

ouch.

OH, SURE. take out my smilie and make me look mean.

How do we know there were any air marshalls and not just the flight attendant trying to calm a nervous passenger? :eyebrow:

The more I think about it, the more I think Jag's got it sussed... most flights would either have 0 or 1 air marshal on them, and here they're surrounding? I'd wager they were aware of what was going on and what could possibly go on.

Near the end of the article, it tahkes a surreal turn:http://www.cellar.org/images/smilies/greenface.gif
There are probably better ways of continuing one's research.

Undertoad, given the current ( and historic)hostilities between Arabs and Jews and given the power held by the Jewish lobby in America and their (I generalise based upon what I see in the media) attitude towards the Middle East issue in particular and arab cultures in general I dont think it's racist to see that the writer is Jewish and wonder if she has ulterior motives to her article. I would likewise see an article written by an Arab about Jewish activities as potentially loaded.

I am not bigotted against Jews. I lived for 12 years with a man called Judah whose name means "Lion protector of Israel" and I have Jewish heritage on my mother's side. ( she is 1/4 Jewish) something I have always been quite proud of. I worked for years with the Anti Nazi League in the UK and have been to several rallies to hear the words of Holocaust survivors. However.......the political landscape has changed dramatically in recent decades and the Jewish Diaspora is no longer powerless and no longer the people most likely to be victimised. That dubious honour now goes to Arabs

Interestingly whilst some of the Jewish Brits obviously support the actions of the IDF many do not. Many see it as a disgraceful perversion of the dream of Israel. If I were to see an article written in the UK by a Jewish writer I wold not make the same assumption of Zionist tendencies that I make when I see a Jewish American writing an article which portrays a group of faceless, unknown Arabic men as a hidden and dangerous enemy. America is at war and so is Israel. Amongst the political elite in Washington, Jewish voices are at the forefront of the Hawks. Not so off the wall then to spot a potential political agenda in an article such as this written by a member of a group which is projecting a hawk attitude against arab cultures particularly in regard to Palestine.

Well, here in the US we intermarry and our last names are pretty meaningless.

Thats a fair point Undertoad. If the writer had been discussing a less politically fraught subject matter I dont think I would have taken particular notice of her surname, for much that reason. There is of course the possibility that she isnt "Jewish" in identity despite having a Jewish surname. There's also the possibility that she is Jewish , proud of it and not the least bit Zionist.....But....When reading news articles which deal with very current and polarised issues, it's usually worth giving a moment's thought to the writer's possible political orientation. If I were to read an article about Jewish immigrants causing trouble and the name at the bottom of the article was Hussein or Waheed I may well pause to think.....Are they honest? Are they politically motivated? I woldnt necessarily have thought that 10 years ago......nor is it necessarily the case that I owld think that in ten years time. But right now, in the current climate there are soooo many people banging the drum for one side or the other in the media that really all journalists are suspect unless they are obviously *not* involved in one side of the fight or the other.

"Arabs are an ethnic group, not a race."

True. Maybe then I should class it as Ethnically based bigotry

Or bigotry based on reality. :dead:

Quoth (sayeth?) the Toad:

Let's agree to disagree, then; I don't think that terrorism is a valid justification for broad stereotypes and bigotry. To my mind, it doesn't count as a "win" if, by fighting, you lower yourself to the level of the other side. Offending people in the name of safety can be justified only if you offend people equally, disregarding race/age/gender/etc.

Indiscriminate or unsatisfactorily specific killing (guilt by association, broad and subjective guidelines, etc) is the hallmark of terrorists. Indiscriminate or unsatisfactorily specific interrogation & incarceration is the hallmark of fascists and tyrants.

Both suck. One might suck less, but I don't think it sucks less enough.

It's complicated. It is very hard to ignore the fact that 14 Syrians on 1 way tickets are far more likely to be terrorists in this day and age than an elderly white grandma or a white businessman. Finding ways of addressing this without resorting to a racist legal base is difficult. My feeling is that inside the various bodies responsible for this stuff they couldn't give a damn about the racist angle, they've got a job to do, they profile, if the profile leans towards a race, so be it, fuck the legality, they've got a job to do and largely, that works. Sure it's unfair against the devout muslim who happens to be moving to NY but life is unfair, get used to it.

That's a very noble position,.....until you lose. :p

Jag's got it right. :thumpsup:

:eek: Wow...never thought I'd have a jaw dropping moment with you UT, but here it is.

But that's ok: I'll still be on the lookout for someone who hates me bad enough to repeat what they did to James Byrd...and don't think that it won't happen again. :eyebrow: Don't believe that for a SECOND, for as long as there is that type of hatred out there, it's bound to happen again.

Oh and as far as who WAS injured/killed after 9/11, it happened to be people who were THOUGHT to be Arab, so isn't the intention just as bad as the action?

One single and very unfortunate Sikh.

Not bad for what, 300 million of us? People forget the post-event unity... what it felt like, what it brought about, how it wasn't all bad, and what it will be like after the next attack. Our collective memory is amazingly short.

The very reddest of redneck Alabama crackers and the blackest ace of spaces in Harlem will fight the common enemy together hand in hand... it is bred into us as a people. We are Americans and at the end of the day I am sure it is what we will do.

I guess I don't understand how the intent of people purposely going out to do harm to Arabs should be overlooked just b/c actual Arabs were not harmed. :confused:

Hm...you honestly think so UT? Better ask some black folk about that and then get back to me. :)

Well, if not, then get back to me with something more important. I'm sorry LadySyc but with all due respect if the Black Community doesn't regard the terrorists as a common enemy worthy of uniting the 'Bama cracker with the Harlem Brother then that's fucked up. I know plenty of 'Bama crackers who would embrace the brothers from Harlem to fight the good fight against those who would destroy America.

M'kay...:confused:

Then it's just going to have to be fucked up, isn't it? You can't sit there and honestly expect every black person to fight side by side with someone that some already feel is "the enemy". Especially when this has already been done before (prior wars where blacks fought with whites for a "common goal" only to be treated like shit when the dust settled). Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you, but for some blacks, that's just the truth.


And I know plenty of "brothas" who would tell those "crackas" to go fuck themselves and fight their own war.

Beestie, as far as some blacks are concerened, America has already been destroyed. She destroyed herself WAYYYY before 9/11.

Why Blacks Oppose and Fight War:
http://tinyurl.com/5gv39

Not All Blacks Say 'No' to Iraq War:
http://www.namibian.com.na/2003/marc...3C5B1CF2A.html

Both sides.

Okay, fine. You want it that way, we white folk can play it that way too. Only there's still a shitload more of us white folk, so maybe you might want to reconsider the idea of taking someone's offered olive branch and shoving it up their ass.

*laughing* Ah yes...the olive branch which turns into the knife in the back when the dust settles. Yeah..sounds like a GREAT plan. :rolleyes:

I'm tempted to quote UT
"racism isn't a problem in the US"

racism will always be a problem as long as we have individuals (of all races, colors, creeds) that choose to hold too tightly to past wrongs. as long as there are people who pride themselves on being different or separate there will be someone who dislikes them for being different and separate.
Life rule #1: People suck
Life rule #2: Refer to rule #1 then get on with life

"*laughing* Ah yes...the olive branch which turns into the knife in the back when the dust settles. Yeah..sounds like a GREAT plan"

Well said Lady Syc.

And Lookout racism will always be a problem when power is invested disproportionately to one race to the detriment of another.

Dana - if we were all the exact same color, had the same religion, spoke the same language, etc... we would still have an ism to separate us. people in groups will always fragment out in factions and create bitter rivalries. it is human nature and is completely unavoidable until the human race is extinct.

that being said - racism continues because of an unwillingness of people on all sides to let go of the past. i've said it before the only way to end racism is for us all to screw until we are the same color... i'm willing to do my part for humanity, so let the screwing commence!

Lookout, your first point I agree with. People have a natural tendency to seek likeness and fear difference and to use that as a basis for factionalism...

Your second point I take issue with. The problem isnt that people refuse to let go the wrongs and resentments of the past. the problem is that the wrongs and resentments are not a problem of the past they are a problem of the present. The point is that racism *does* exist(for whatever reason) and as such demands a response. To hold ones hand up and say "That's it I will no longer bear a grudge against those who enslaved my great great grandparents " is all very well if the people who enslaved your great great grandparents werent still treating you as persona non grata and discriminating against you in a myriad different ways, some against the law and some not. If you had equal power in this new relationship that may allow you to let bygones be bygones but if you havent equal power within this modern relationship it quickly becomes apparent that the bygones havent in fact gone

No matter who you are, what color, race or creed, somebody isn't going to like you. Simple fact. If they don't like you, they'll probably not go out of their way to be polite. The best you can hope for is them not going out of their way to be impolite. The key here is "out of their way"

What is the %age of the military that is black? :eyebrow:

I think a more interesting question would be what percentage of Blacks are in the military?

I'd also be interested to know what percentage of the white population are in the military

25% (answering Bruce)

and isn't the national pop like 10 or 11% black?

Perhaps a higher percentage of the Black population has to resort to the military in order to achieve an education or training in skills

how is that a negative? people from all different backgrounds go in the military to earn college money and gain skills. most of the people who stick around until retirement went in for those very reasons andfound an environment in which they could flourish.

it doesn't matter what % of black,white, purple individuals are in the military. if you want to look at %'s - see if the military has the same percentages of ethnic groups as our population as a whole. i think that you will find that it does not match up. you would have to break it down into percentage of each ethnic group who doesn't have the money to send their kids to school, then i believe the numbers would correspond very closely.

most of the people go in the military for greater access to opportunity... that means that most of the military comes from a middle class or lower class background. but so what? they are taking advantage of a way to move up in life and kudos to all who choose to do so.

I don't give a shit why they joined. They're in the military and I doubt like hell they're going to tell anyone, even "crackas" to go fuck themselves and fight their own war.

you're right bruce, they won't. to be fair i think she was referring to those not in the military. the military is not perfect and occasionally there are instances of racial intolerance but on the whole - everyone is there voluntarily, they know everyone else is there for the same purpose and treat eachother with professionalism.

hm i'm feeling the need to chime in. While in the US it might be a little different there are members of most minorities that like using that as an excuse to be antisocial and like playing up race issues. I've met maybe one or two people white people my age who hold any kind of racial grudge and went to a very multicultural high school where race was either a nonissue or a few harmless jokes that went in every direction. On more than one occasion here I've heard and been given lectures by young black guys wearing stupidly expensive clothing(which is all about race itself, FUBU and the like) about how 'the man' was keeping their people down and all this crap. Get the fuck over yourself, it's Switzerland, stop pretending you have some kind of excuse to break the law and act like an utter fucking wanker, noone gives a damn until you step out of line, then you can expect the same treatment as everyone else.

it is generally the same way here jag. there is some very unfortunate racism that still exists, but what i find more common is people that are hunting for a racist agenda where none exists. there will always be a small minority (made up of all ethnicities) that is always looking for the person holding them back, rather than looking for a goal to strive for.

*zips up flame retardent suit*

Let me join you on that one. I understand the roots of modern black angst on these things and in some areas it still is a real problem but it's now a mainstream cultural anchorpoint for so many kids that's being exported via MTV around the world and helping create racial divides rather than break them down.

We are in complete agreement.

Should I play the lottery today with such an unlikely event as this happening?

Then you aren't interested in anything but treating white people as the enemy. And by doing so, you've provided ample justification for white people to reciprocate. Indeed, you make white people who do otherwise look like chumps. The ball's in your (collective) court.

Thank you Dana. Various people, black and white, have said this in many ways over time, but people refuse to listen or at least, take it under account. It's so easy for some to say "just get over it" when it's not happening to them, directly or even indirectly. I just will not use up what's left of my mental and emotional energy trying to convince people of anything anymore regarding racial/cultural issues.

Someone very clever once said:
**Don't tell people to get over the past when it's still haunting their
present. "Jeff"

Pardon me for not being ashamed of who I am, where I am from, where my parents and the generations before them were from. If such feeling is now considered racist, so be it, I'm a racist. Also please pardon me for determining which people are assholes and which are not on an individual interactional basis rather than based on membership of a certain group or class. I even mean that about liberals.