Questions about Moore's facts.
 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/

i found this to be an interesting article about Moore's use of facts.

http://www.houseofbush.com/

I found this to be an interesting rebuttal. :cool:

If anyone's seen the 59 Deceits in F911 article by David Kopel, here are some responses to them:

Part one (Deceits 1-2)
Part two (3-7)
Part three (8-16)
Part four (17-23)
Part five (24-31)
Part six (32-38)
Part seven (39-49)
Part eight (50-59)

Thanks Happy Monkey :3eye: you just saved me the trouble of searching Google to debunk the critics. I just went to see the film last night and was both moved and impressed by it. I think it fully deserved the Palm D'Or at Cannes purely on the films merit. The opening sequence is a beautifully directed piece.

What I always find strangely comforting about moore's films is that they show an America I can relate to. The people of Flint look and sound like the people of Bolton, the old Northern Milltown I grew up in during a time when it's manufacturing base had been ripped apart. I know that environment. I grew up in a similar looking place with similar employment prospects at a time when unemployment for 19-29 year olds was running at an all time high in a Britain with nearly 4 million unemployed. ( officially)

The other thing I find moving about Moore's films and indeed his TV apperances is his humanity, his compassion for the workingclass backbone of America whose interests are systematically ignored by the electoral system they live under.

I find it amazing, that when such a large cloud hangs over the election results which somehow returned a Democratic winner but a Republican President that so many people concentrate their efforts on proving Moore a liar. Moore is not the one who put the cloud over the election results, he merely pointed it out along with many others.

Lie after lie from an administration whose interests lie firmly with their international family of oil and who is being harangued for his facts? The people who took a coalition of nations to war on a false prospectus? The people who lied to us all about Iraq's involvement with Al Quaeda and in doing so allowed the perpetrators of 9/11 get away into the Bora bora mountains where they are once more regrouped and in control of large areas ?

Lie upon lie, crime upon crime. Crimes of epic proportion which in another time or place would bring down a People's anger on the heads of those who committed them and it's Michael Moore who is demonised in the press and artistes who question the supreme will and right of the president to wage war in their name who are bullied into silence.

In any other country this would be seen as a form of covert dictatorship. When a man can lose an election and still take the seat of power it has all the hallmarks of a coup. But this happened in America, the worlds greatest democracy and the model for freedom in todays world. Terrifying.

May I have your attention please?

NO MATTER HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES THEY RECOUNTED, HE STILL WON.

Losing the popular vote and winning the electoral college is always possible. It's how the system works. And this wasn't the first time this happened.

(Incidentally, the nonsense related to Gore's attempt to steal (yes, steal) the election is what cemented my disillusionment with the Democrat party that had started with the blowjob)

*clap clap clap* thank you wolf.

Well when they counted and recounted the figures suggested he should have lost because of the tens of thousands of your fellow citizens who were summarily disenfranchised and denied their vote

Of course it helps whne the person wishing to rig the election has the personal loyalties of the people a)doing the counting and b) acting as final arbiter

there are a lot of votes that aren't counted on every election.

i got a letter in the mail 6 weeks after the election notifying me that they were able to verify my registration but my vote still wasn't counted. and that one was for bush. hate bush all you want - there are plenty of reasons, but the stolen election is such a load of shit - move on.

People choosing not to vote is not "disenfranchising" them.

Neither is not allowing prisoners to vote.

The only "rigging" that was attempted was on the part of the Democrats, dearie. You want to change our system? Emigrate legally if you meet the criteria, apply for citizenship and vote.

The felon list in Florida which was used in 2000 and 2002 has finally been discarded due to dramatic errors, far in excess of the margin of the election results. And that's just the easiest of the disenfranchisements to document.

was there anyone on the list who may have voted republican?

You mean the absentee ballots filed by our men and women in the miltary serving on foreign soil that Al Gore filed a lawsuit to keep from being counted?

Not that we owe you an explanation or anything.

the stolen election bit is just playing by the rule "if you say it often enough and loud enough, it must be true, so i have to tell every one as often and loudly as possible."

On the list of 48000 people, there were 22000 black people, who traditionally vote Democratic, and 61 hispanics, who in Florida traditionally vote Republican.

well, you showed me - 22000 people who would have voted democrat. if they went to the polls, and they supported gore, and they were smart enough to push a chad through.

how many of these people actually would have gotten off their butts to vote? there is no way of knowing, so it doesn't matter.

First note: All 22000 were not eligable to vote. The problem was that there were far more blacks on the list than were felons, and far fewer hispanics.

Second, even if you got signed affidavits from everyone on the list, and all felons not on the list, that they had no intention of voting, it would still matter, because the choice was being made for them.

This kind of stuff happens on both sides in every election.

Jeb said he'd deliver florida and boy did he.

UT's right. i'm from illinois, you know that state that surrounds chicago??? chicago - the city where faithful democrats never miss and opportunity to vote, even after they are dead... sometimes twice...

stuff happens in both directions

I was responding to this post, which is obviously false. Gore was an idiot for not requesting a complete state-wide recount, including military and other absentee ballots. It served him right that it bit him on the ass. Unfortunately, it did not serve the rest of us right, which is why it is important to stop it from happening again.

Interestingly the overseas military votes, many of which were datestamped for after the cut off point were counted. So a group which traditionally supports the Republicans had votes which should not have been counted...counted. And votes from a group which traditonally supports the democrats which should have been counted....werent

"You mean the absentee ballots filed by our men and women in the miltary serving on foreign soil that Al Gore filed a lawsuit to keep from being counted?" He objected to votes which were past the date. That's acting within the law...the people who made the ultimate decisions about those questions after the election night fiasco were headed up by a Bush loyalist

Perhaps if you guys had had someone without a conflict of interests overseeing the matter the result might have had a gram or two of credibility. As it is, the world looked on in disbelief and consternation as the American public was uberduped.....and then having been duped you insist on defending the people that duped you *chuckles* it's like having a friend who is married to a serial adulterer and yet defends his every move with insistences of his honesty and love.

Perhaps if you guys had had someone without a conflict of interests overseeing the matter the result might have had a gram or two of credibility.

No such thing. Unless you're suggesting we invite the UN in to moderate our elections? Yes wouldn't THAT be fabulous.

Having someone who had actively campaigned for candidate in Florida oversee a recount in a disputed result was more than the usual level of partisan conflict of interests

Oh and what the hell was going on here?

"""What Happened to African American Voters?
Even before Election Day was over last year, stories began to circulate about how the rights of black voters were being taken away. Florida, of course, got the most attention, and there were certainly many things that were questionable about the treatment of black voters there. Thousands of punch-card ballots, which were used largely in poor in minority districts, were thrown out. When the names of criminals were removed from voting lists statewide, many legitimate black voters' names were taken off as well, and these voters were turned away when they showed up at the polls. A very controversial police blockade was placed just two miles from a polling place in a heavily African American district. And there were many reports of intimidation and harassment of black voters at the polls themselves. As Florida Congresswoman Carrie Meek said, "The system is not working for us…again." """

From the Brainevent site
Disrimination at the Polls

Y'know what though? It is about to stop mattering. Bush looks likely to win the next one fair and square .....The democrats are about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory ....thats my prediction, but then I am in a glum mood

Thread of hope:

Heheh call me cynical but i have never recovered from the last Tory election win in 1992. The polls showed a labour win right til the night then the exit polls said a hung parliament with labour the dominant party.....By 11 o clock that night it becamse clear we had four more years of conservative rule. People had lied in the exit polls *chuckled* nobody wanted to admit they had voted Tory so they just voted tory and then lied on the way out teh door when they were polled.

Funnily enough some reporters came to my home town a few weeks after the election to try and find people who would admit to voting tory . They went around asking people a few general questions and included in there a query as to which way they had voted and I think if memory serves they found less than 10 in a poll of several hundred......bolton, an industrial smoggy town with a radical past and a history of Labour voted tory in droves but wouldnt bloody admit it *chuckles* Imagine that, bunches of people voting for a party then being too ashamed to admit it.They voted on their pockets ( wrongly as it happened they backed the wrong horse if they wanted to be more affluent heheh)

On a side note I remember doing some canvasing for that election. You can imagine my pride in my felow countrymen and our grand parliamentary tradition when more than one person said to me ( in the usual way of Bolton parlance) "Fuck off I am not voting for that red headed welsh twat".....This was from a section of the public which had no love for the tories. They said theyd rather not vote than vote for a red headed welshman

I don't think Bush backers are ashamed to admit it over here, so if these polls turn around then I expect it wil be due to some sort of October Surprise.

*grins* for second then I had the delightful mental image of America suddenly going into Russian style Oktober Revolution

Where did that map come from, HM. I'd like to see the key. :)

Click the numbers over the map. Tennessee is tied. Otherwise, the darkness of the color indicates the size of the lead.

OK, so dark is a lock, lighter a probable and white is up for grabs but leaning toward the border color. Thanks. :D

We aren't talking about Hillary Clinton here. Please stay on topic.

"We aren't talking about Hillary Clinton here. Please stay on topic. "

hahahahah Very sharp.

I wasn't surprised by this news in the LEAST. I remember when I heard of this right after the election and all I could do is shake my head. :mad: Ah well.. thanks for the site DanaC.

Are we headed for this in '08? Does anyone think that any of the "safeguards" put in place since then will make any difference?

Maybe

WOW! Up from the depths come some enlightenment

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

I've been addicted to "The SteveDallas Random Thread Picker" and found some great threads and even the inspiration for business idea.

Damm! and I thought this would be another great chance to beat up on ole high school drop out Mike Moore. I am really disappointed

Hey now, there will be no lynchings... but you're welcome to shoot the bastard, if you've a mind to.

I'm thinking about keeping my gun loaded with silver bullets in case I come across his path. What a bloated, rich, hypocritical, piece of shit. Someone give that gross pig a razor and some shaving cream for Pete's sake.

Well, if you shoot into everything all around his vital zone, blowing away nothing but fat, he'll be intensely uncomfortable and unhappy, and you still beat a murder rap.

But they'll have you over a barrel on [McCloud] "discharging a lethal weapon into a public nuisance."[/McCloud]

Everybody I know hates Michael Moore.

You should expand your social circle.

"Everybody I like hates Michael Moore" might be better?

I like his movies, but not his politics. Really don't see where the two intersect unless he pushes his opinions down my throat.

Oh yeah he's doing just that. hmm

I recon that Michael Moore sticks much closer to the truth than both Hollywood and the White House. The thing is that Moore has far more important things to say than Hollywood and the White House put together and what he has to say will effect the whole world in a more positive way, rather than the destructive way that the others do.

Well said Dr.

See all this is is just so much intellectual discussion until I go see in another thread that Bri is having to think about the cost of her pills. That the insurance companies won't cover the cost of anti-nausea medication for two thirds of her treatment.....that she is having to do that kind of maths at all. Makes me so fucking angry I could smash something up. Politics be fucked, our friend is suffering. And her suffering could be alleviated as easily as swallowing a tablet if the healthcare system she has no choice but to work within did its job properly. I'm not saying ours is perfect, and God knows there are gaps in the net...but there's got to be a better way than the current American healthcare system, when Bri can't get the pills she needs to get through this without having her days wrecked by constant nausea.

The primary goal of any health insurance company is to make profit. To take as much money in and pay as little money out as they possibly can. How, please tell me, how can that lead to good healthcare?

Hey I'm not saying, but you reckon your system would have paid the £40,000 for the experimental treatments?

This is why the electoral college needs to be done away with. It's archaic and antiquated, and no longer needed. Some people stupidly say it prevents more popular states from having more of a say than the smaller states but that's bullshit. 1 person = 1 vote. The way it's setup right now is 1 person's vote in a rural state = 3 votes in a more populated state.

I know we're not from the UK, but my aunt has been having 'experimental treatment' for her cancer for the last 5yrs. It's all subsidised, although because she has private health insurance, she chooses to stay in a private hospital for her treatment.

Depends on a number of factors, but often yes. A friend of mine was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis about ten years ago and was put onto an experimental treatment for two years. Cost to the national health service: approx. £30k; cost to my friend: £6.75 a month for standard prescription charge.

Hey! No fighting in my name! ;)

I'm in a clinical trial---there are six "arms" to this trial and you are randomly placed in an "arm"---I'm in the most traditional "arm" of the possible treatments. I went into the trial only because THE TRIAL WILL PAY FOR SOME OF THE TESTING I NEED. They pay for some blood work, some pre-chemo diagnostics (eg. the whole body CT I got) and some u/a's. What they are doing in the trial is switching the traditional sequence of chemo (traditional: A/C first, taxotere second. Trial: taxotere first, A/C second) OR the A/C taxotere with something extra added---don't ask me what.

Anyway--thanks for the concern, DanaC. I know that, somehow, I'll be ok. If I can't afford it and can't find someone to help with cost---I still might be ok without it. I have a very cheap anti-nausea drug called compazine that, added with ativan and dexamethasone (both pretty cheap) might work ,too.

If'n I was there I would get you some weed

Sweeeeeet!


srly, thanks, all of you, for being so supportive and caring.


now. can anybody mail me some percs? ;)

:cool: I think Y's gotcha there, Bruce.

Well stated.

To bad his "facts" are so distorted and cherry picked that they really turn out to be BS when taken as a whole.

There is - and it's been in use in many countries for a long, long time.


If that question is to me then the answer is probably YES.

The thing is that the U.S. sees tax money as the government's property and so it’s hoarded for "their own” benefit such as politicians and big business scratching one another's back and getting fat on the profits while the underprivileged suck on moss-covered rocks for their sustenance.

We, on the other hand, see tax money as insurance for the whole population i.e. the individual citizen. The funds are there for us when we need it. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that the whole idea with democratic, political policies? :f187: