Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me....
 

CULTURE OF EXCUSE: Slave owners beat their slaves, says attorney Randall
Vogt. Therefore, it's "justified" for black men to beat their sons.
Vogt is defending Isaac Cortez Bynum, who beat his 2-year-old son to
death, and says he'll use a "post traumatic slave syndrome" defense "in
a general way" in Bynum's Beaverton, Ore., murder trial. "If you are
African American and you are living in America, you have been
impacted," says Joy DeGruy-Leary, assistant professor at Portland State
University's Graduate School of Social Work, who originated the slave
syndrome theory. The boy's autopsy showed he had been abused over a
lengthy period and had suffered brain injury, a broken neck, broken
ribs, and scores of whip marks all over his body. When shown the boy's
autopsy photos, DeGruy-Leary said the injury pattern "falls in the
rubric" of "normal" for descendants of slaves. (Portland Oregonian)


Oh, please. One more excuse as to why someone isn't responsible for their actions.... :angry:

That defense is not only pathetic, its downright racist. Like, "Well, what else do you expect from Black folks? They're all descended from slaves, you know." Jeez, where do you find these things, Lady Sid? Each one you post is more depressing than the last.

If he gets away with this shit, then if I kill someone in an oven, I can claim "Post-Traumatic Nazi Disorder"?
Just another way for some jerk-off professor to get his name in a textbook. "You can't be guilty of beating your child to death! It's the fault of those evil white men 300 years ago!"
I believe the word I'm looking for is - brace yourself - BULLSHIT!!!!!

I get a lot of it from bizarre, strange news updates I get in my email. The offbeat stuff is a lot more interesting than the run-of-the-mill news one sees every day.

I posted it becuse I found it absurd...the fact that someone was probably given a grant to develop such a stupid theory, and the fact that not only did this person come right out and advertise his bullshit ideas, but that someone actually has the nerve to insult twelve jurors and a judge by using it as a defense of a child killer.


Sidhe

Sickening. Says a lot about the culture of violence in your 'what good' thread Mari. These burns can last through generations, according to the perpetrators. It's no excuse. When does it all end?

Can we get a source for this? Fair chance it's satire. Chances of it working are next to none.

It wouldn't be QUITE so absurd if the man who beat his son to death had actually been a slave who grew up under the whip of a plantation owner and had endured the hell on earth that was the life of a typical slave at the time. Plenty of people who were abused while growing up have shown to do the same to others, whatever that abuse may have been. But this post traumatic slave symdrone business is, at the LEAST, approx. 110 years too late. And as a black person, I'm bloody sick and tired of my race being used as an excuse for horrible acts and deplorable behavior.

And who knows what ridiculousness might come of this if the jury actually falls for it. I can see it now...a white guy will beat his son to death and claim the same, because his great great grandmother was black and was a slave. He couldn't help it, it was in his blood! Feh.

The story is legit.

Judge rejects slave trauma as defense for killing

<snip>----
Noting the theory has not been proven or ever offered in court, Washington County Circuit Judge Nancy W. Campbell recently threw out DeGruy-Leary's pretrial testimony.

But the judge said she would reconsider the defense for Bynum's September trial if his lawyer can show the slave theory is an accepted mental disorder with a valid scientific basis and specifically applies to this case.
----</snip>

I don't really have any comment. Some bozo creates a theory out of whole cloth and some attorney picks it up because his client is otherwise well on his way to a 25-year stint in an ass-pounding penetentiary (they love child abusers in the big house).

www.bizarrenews.com

Hear, Hear! :thumpsup:

"The boy's autopsy showed he had been abused over a
lengthy period and had suffered brain injury, a broken neck, broken
ribs, and scores of whip marks all over his body. "

I'm sorry, but that's rage, not post-traumatic- ANYTHING- syndrome.

I hate it when people use something like this to excuse bad behavior. I look at it this way: I didn't own slaves, probably had family enslaved somewhere myself (American Indian), but so did the Irish, the Chinese (think the railroads), and others. It's not an excuse for bad behavior, because none of us, personally, were slaves.

Goddamn, slavery is over. It's been over. Nobody alive today was a slave, and nobody alive today was a slave owner. Why can't people stop bringing it up as an accusation or excuse for this, that, and the other?


Sidhe

While this is obviously asinine, you're wrong on one point. Slavery isn't dead, it's alive and well all over the place. Brothels across the western world and asia, maids in the middle east and on occasion in western countries (hell the US has been leaning on Israel to put a stop to it quite recently), the white slave trade, particularly in the middle east...the list goes on. Nice thought but these things still happen.

This guy is still an ass though.

*ding ding ding*

common sense has been detected in this area, please evacuate immediately.

well said, sidhe.

I'm pretty sure it was only in referrence to America. We know it goes on elsewhere.

I watched one of those christian channels where they take the money you send them and they head to the Sudan to buy people out of slavery with it.

35 USD if I recall. I wonder if they have the foresight to realize that day after that the ex-slave will be right back where they were and the slave trader is 35 USD richer?

Don't think it doesn't happen in the US, it does, usually maids from South America.

Some of those guys offer comprehensive services to people afterwards to get people on their feet, it varies. I've seen this stuff happen, it's particularly common in cambodia, you can buy a 16-18y.o girl for around $2-300USD. That's a fun situation let me tell you, I mean what the fuck can you do, even if you do try and play the knight in shining armour, how the fuck do you explain to her and what the hell is she going to do afterwards. The culture that exists around places like K11 is a hard thing to kill. There are NGOs that do help, if it irks you, that is the best option. As far as I'm aware the Eastern European stuff goes for around $7-10000USD.

Salves are the least of the problems in Sudan.

Thanks--but don't let anyone else hear you say that
;) It might start a riot or something...someone agreeing with my radical notions....

Hey, it can happen....


Sidhe

Yeah, we've been using this one on people ever since we started with the chinese and irish.

I know, I was just practicing my topicality. My point was more that people weren't looking at how to solve the problem, just the symptom.

Sheesh, yet another reason for someone to look at me cockeyed and say, "There you people go again", or "Why can't you people let the past go", etc. blah blah. :meanface: :rolleyes:

I say that while also saying I do NOT agree with what this man is trying to get away with. He is the lowest of the low on the human scale, and deserved to be whipped and abused in the same manner that he did his son. :mad2:

[forestgump]"And that's all I have to say about that."[/forestgump]

well ... can I claim PTIS (post traumatic indenture syndrome)?

Now, I don't believe this PTSS shit for a second, but .. the basic problem here is that IF this guy were truly channeling some ancestral energy, he would have remembered one or two simple facts ... a slaveowner typically would NOT beat his valuable property to death or the point of death. Dead slaves don't work. Seriously injured slaves don't work and they still have to be fed. It's not economically sensible to do that. It would be doubly foolish to beat a child ... a slave you didn't have to pay for and could resell at a profit was highly prized. One didn't have to train them out of any bad habits like knowing about freedom and such ...

Personally, I think the abuser should be staked out on the public square and be run over by a especially slow steamroller, feet first.

But then I have some strong opinions regarding people who harm children.

And you express them eloquently. That steamroller idea is fantastic. My only concern is that he would be dead well before the job was done. Surely we can make him suffer longer? Perhaps the steamroller bit should be a finale of sorts.

Oh I'm all about slow, painful torture to those who clearly deserve it. How about he be riddled with paper cuts, then dipped into rubbing alcohol, and then set on fire? :scream: :D

I've heard (and I have no source to back this up) that being burned to death is actually a reasonable way to go because the nervous system overloads and shuts down long before you die; i.e. no more pain is felt. Anyone with less work to do today care to confirm/repudiate this? :)

Depends upon the method used. Many of those who die fighting forest fires, for example, go pretty quickly; they die from suffocation from inhaling fire which happens in seconds (I just got through reading a book on the firefighters who died fighting the fire outside Glenwood Springs, Colorado some years back. 14 people died fighting that fire. They all died from aphixiation.)

A slow burning would be true torture, however.

It is true that the nerve endings are basically completely burned away when you have full thickness 3rd degree burns ... but there are usually combinations of 1st thru 3rd degree on the body. It hurts like hell. All over. Also, I suspect that the same sort of "phantom limb" effect in amputations might occur for serious burn patients as well ... the nerve endings are GONE, but the nerves still transmit some kind of information back to the brain indicating something ain't quite right.

Lingering, semi or fully conscious in that state is not pretty.

The primary causes of death from burn injury are bacterial infection and dehydration.

One study I found showed that 96% of burn injury patients survived to be released from the hospital (That particular study didn't address extent of burn, so may cover everything from ass burns from lighting farts to full body burns).

Oh my fucking god. Are you guys for real? I can't believe what I've just read. It's like something out of the Nazi handbook, mmmmhhmmmm methods of torture, which one shall we use this time, bwa ha ha ha ha ha. Makes you just as bad as the perpetrators you accuse.

I am seriously worried about your states of mind. God forbid this vicious, sadistic, retaliatory attitude is representative of most Americans.

Never underestimate humanity's ability to find interesting and creative ways to kill each other.

I think if you ran a poll 'Should child molestors be tortured to death' the manjorty of americans would say yes.

"Never underestimate humanity's ability to find interesting and creative ways to kill each other."

Can I steal that?

With my views in IP it's be hypocritical to say no ;)

A far greater majority of Europeans would advocate torture than Americans. After all, Europe embraces its centuries long, rich tradition of brutal torture that would turn the stomach of most Americans. Hell, you Euro types even have torture museums and monuments dedicated to your history of torture. You could fill a library with the books that Europe has published on torture techniques. Nowhere else in the world can such things be found. Europe takes great pride in its history of brutalizing its own citizens.

When it comes to torture and brutality, jag, your European ancestors wrote the book so spare us your self-rightous indignation.

And here we have a classic example of PTTS (post traumatic torture syndrome) because Jag has shown imagination in methods of killing people slowly and has European blood in his veins.

Isnt this exactly the point we were making about how flat out ridiculous the PTSD concept is? Since Jag didn't actually do any of the torture, come up with any of the famous devices used and is hundreds of years removed from the time and people who used them, how can he be self-righteous about the torture concept in general?

Besides, Europe doesn't deserve all the credit. Central and South America had (have?) interesting methods of killing people slowly, as well as some of the 'standard' ways, so does Asia and South Asia. Africa's a treat too. Humans are the only animal that can rationalize and take joy in killing its own kind. Torture's as universal as people are.

Yes, and we were talking about current attitudes, not ancient techniques.

Actually, we're talking about jag's assumptions about Americans. I referenced history to undermine the assumption that Americans are more "open to the idea" of torture than Europeans are. Its not in our culture and its not in our history whereas European culture and history is saturated with it.

Subtly wrapped inside jag's ever-so-predicatable anti-American opinion is the implication of moral superiority. I point out Europe's history not to allege American moral superiority nor to embarrass Europe but to refute jag's assertion of European morally superiority.

Jag is not "in touch" with the American people and merely extends his hatred for our government to our people. America just had to face one of the more disgusting moments in its institutional history - the child abuse scandal of the Catholic Church. At no time during the course of that scandal did I hear calls for the perpetrating priests to be tortured - not on TV, not in the mainstream press, the independent press, the underground press, mainstream talk shows nor local talk shows. Not once. I think that experience alone pretty much refutes jag's point not that there was every any basis to it to begin with.

Jag's allowed that opinion isn't he? Frankly, Bush isn't really 'in touch' with the average American either and he LIVES here.

And perhaps there wasn't outcry in the media for the priests torture, per say, but that sentiment has been expressed. On the whole, we as a society are so scared of being ostrasized and the media is very selective in what it shows. The press is the press and they're going to pander to their interests. If their interests aren't in covering how much people might want these priests flogged then have their hearts cut out, they won't cover it. There's a more interesting story in exposing the sins of the holy anyway.

We have torture here in America, but it's not so much physical as it is mental and emotional. Take our spiderweb of laws in three flavors (local, state, federal), add some psychologists, a few lawyers and hard-nosed judges and you have the ingredients for traumatizing a person in the head (or wallet) for the rest of his life. Of course, this is not to say this doesn't happen anywhere else; it's just that for torture, while others tortured you by letting 4 horses tear you apart or some such, America developed and maintains a method of torture that can last much much longer and can be much more damaging in the long run. Excessive mental stress, gone unchecked, is slow death after all.

edit: spelling

I understand it must be extremely frustrating when Americans are painted with the same brush as Dubya et al, and that foreign policy does not automatically extend into public opinion. I feel the same when people use British history (which is full of barbarity) to refute any argument about another country's systematic torture. But 'you did it first' is simply not a valid argument anymore. I am not saying American history is any more tarnished than European history, or that Americans today are in any respect 'inferior', and I don't think jag was either. Just that, and I am only going on contact I have had with Americans here and elsewhere, the prevailing attitude seems to be exceedingly retaliatory, and I refer to the death penalty, the 'eye-for-an-eye' mentality, response to terrorism, and war.

There is an overwhelming tendency to respond to hatred with hatred, violence with violence. I see immense inferiority issues in the government and the people, with great national pride often turning to blind patriotism in the face of adversity, and foreign policy continually designed to reinforce America's position as 'king of the world'. This status you pride yourselves on can only lead to hostility from what you may consider 'lesser' countries, and betrays an underlying insecurity resulting from various attacks on your confidence from Vietnam to 9/11.

Your catholic church example does not prove anything either way. I am talking about attitude - attitude that you may not see openly published in your national publications, more the kind of attitude you see exposed in forums and discussion groups, and the kind people like Michael Moore are so kind to point out.

The couple of North Americans I have actually met have been lovely people, and have wanted almost from the outset to rid themselves of the perception of America that the world has voted as trigger happy, self-centred and status-obsessed. They assure me that, unfortunately, this attitude is reflective of wider opinion.

It fills me with sadness that in 2004 this kind of attitude still exists, and dominates. We all want the same things - to live, to eat, drink and sleep comfortably. Why can't we all just get on with it, and leave puny politics, greed and creative killings out of it?

I think you are painting with too broad a brush, Catwoman. You admit that the North Americans you have actually met in person are nothing like the "typical" American you are talking about.

You also say that your opinions are being formed in part by the discussion forums like this one. It is possible that people are playing devils advocate just a little? For example, in the thread about the teacher, even you were arguing a position that you later admitted you didn't hold.

Sure, some people believe in the death penalty, and post tiring repetitive messages about it. Don't let repetitive posts by one or two people skew your perception of what many other people think. There are a lot of americans opposed to the death penalty, and support for it has been declining steadily in recent years. Link

The US is a pretty evenly divided country. The last presidential election was split 50/50.

I disagree with many of the specific actions taken by Bush, but the underlying theory he has about fighting terrorism is a good one. We can't defend against terrorists, so if we are going to fight them, we have to take the battle to them. Attack them first in their countries. The problem is that we have to be careful to not cause resentment against us and create more terrorism as a result. It's a delicate balancing act, and Bush has failed at it.

We should also have a carrot-stick approach. Bush is using a stick, but not providing a carrot. That's a mistake too.

Beats the hell out of the british attitude of blaming and imprisoning the victim and letting the criminal go free in return for testifying against him.

Glatt, good point, well made, and taken.

Wolf I don't suppose you noticed the irony of your retaliatory post.

Well gee beestie, since catwoman has pointed out the utter irrelevancy of the events of the fucking middle ages I'll just have to get right into it.

I'm having great trouble expressing this so I'll be blunt. There are plenty of good, intelligent, creative and wonderful americans and I know a fair few.

It's a pity what we see over here is a self absorbed, decadent, dangerous, apathetic savages. This is no exaggeration. Frankly, threads like this don't do much to change that opinion and trust me, it's the prevailing one. I have seen nothing to suggest it is incorrect. Show me something and I might change my mind. I read widely, I watch the polls, I'm heavily involved in dissecting foreign policy and I've made a lot of money by analyzing situations, it's not like I'm just following popular opinion. Outside people I work with in various capacities and most of the people on here, every american I deal with has been obnoxious, ill informed and annoying. Hell at least once a week I'm asked by the staff at where I have lunch to explain to yet another bunch of overweight american tourists that we don't accept the goddamn euro, is if that fucking hard to understand what country you're in?

Yea, I'm angry, I genuinely hate the US as a country, you're the biggest danger to international peace, you're exporting you're toxic laws by forcing trade agreements, you slow down and try and stop any move to develop an international consensus on anything from the goddamn landmine treaty to environment protocols. What is there to like? Even your mainstream culture is a toxic ooze. You lead the road downhill to the lowest common denominator. There are plenty of great things in America and plenty of great americans but as a whole? No wonder most of the developed world dislikes Americans until they demonstrate some merit. I judge people individually and once I know them, they will be judged by their individual merits and flaws but you start with a negative preditposition because experience has created that.

Europe is no land of milk and honey but things don't seem to be anywhere near as bad here. We also don't don't have the infuriating smug patriotism that makes it doubly bad.

Until you've lived in and been a part of a country and its people for some time, it's very hard to really know what the average person of that country thinks about things. Even then, you'd only know sentiment regarding what's happening at the time you were there. No one should make sweeping generalizations based on tourists, movies or secondhand information dispersal, like polls. Polls and media reports will be colored to fit whatever statement the pollster or media outlet is trying to say. You can't look at someone's shoes and complain how uncomfortable they are without actually wearing them. And this goes for both ends of this particular spat.

Dear Jag,

With all due respect, which isn't much, Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Sincerely,
An American Savage

Well Jag, if that's the case I'd advise getting out, because if there really is that deep of a cultural break, then the US will not defend Europe next time, and all those Euro nations that have shamefully spent only 2% of their GDP on defense for decades because they thought NATO would live forever will get rolled.

I am saying that that is what popular opinion over here is, the situation is obviously more complex but most of the time we don't see much evidence of that. Politics and culture are complex and so are the reasons behind people's actions but shit, I have to deal with the fallout of irrational leadership of the 'leader of the free world' on an almost daily basis, as far as I'm concerned, I've got ample ground to be pissed. Benefit of the doubt is something you only get once. I've got plenty of evidence on one side, and little or none on the other, is my position, as a result of those facts, much of a surprise?

Such detailed replies, pointing out how obviously wrong I am such as lookout has done certainly help. They demonstrate a fair and balanced populous concerned about their world image. Go munch on some freedom fries you self defeating halfwit.

UT: The 60s called, they want their foreign policy back. Invade? Yes, China is going to invade I assume? Or maybe Russia?

That said, assuming bush does leave office things will get better on a political level at least. Bush as a certain toxicity that is hard to match, while he remains in office few leaders want to be seen near him, as soon as he leaves things will start to normalize.

jag, you are free to hate America all you want. I will not be drawn into the no-win situation of providing you with a never-ending list of America's accomplishments and contributions (and there are many) to make the world a better place in hopes of gaining your approval. I have no intention of justifying myself or my country to you.

What has your country done to make the world a better place? Justify your place at the world table or is it only America that needs to prove itself. And why should our patriotism - our love for our own country - bother anyone? I'm not ashamed to love America and what it stands for and I grow weary of being constantly put on the defensive for who we are. Who we are (**smug patriotism alert**) is the most successful and prosperous nation in the history of this planet and we did it without any input or help from Europe. Where else can a refugee from a despot arrive with $20.00 and go on to run a Fortune 500 company? That type of success is commonplace here. America is and will continue to be the land of dreams - no European country can even come close to providing that kind of opportunity - unless you call living on the dole or paying 70% taxes an opportunity. Americans are the most productive, hard-working and un-lazy people on earth. And in what other country would a film that is harshly critical of itself and its leader be a major blockbuster? Americans are the FIRST to be self-critical - our entire history is centered on that type of freedom.

I will, however, admit to one of the points in your post - America spends too much of its time, money and blood in places that we shouldn't. We have far too many of our citizens buried in foreign soil. I don't think Americans should die to defend the citizens of other countries unless those countries would do the same for us. Is there a Frenchman on earth who would lay down his life for America? Or for France for that matter?

Your mind is made up and there is little I can do about that. I can make one suggestion, however, - tell the dumbasses in the restaurant you eat at to put up a sign - "We do not accept the Euro from fatass American tourists" - is that so hard to come up with?

I don't really have a country so it's a little hard, some weeks I'm in the Uk, some in Switzerland, hell Australia on occasion.

The thing is though, no country really makes the world a better place, read the docterine of Enlightened Self Interest but most don't make quite as worse as the US does, that's the difference. Part of it is simply being the biggest fish in the pond at the moment, part sheer arrogance.

As for the rags to riches american dream stuff, if you can point out the 'no refugees are allowed to succeed' law on the books, please do, otherwise you have no point. Taxes may be higher but that's because we choose to have compassion on the poor rather than make healthcare more expensive for them than anyone else. Most successful state in history? Please. Try Rome.

Is there a frenchmen who would lay down his life for America? (now here is the point where I feel oddly jusitified in saying americans are ignorant of the world) Try most of Normandy, it's not just a beach in a history book, it's an entire region of France that still has strong links to the US, hell many villages laid down plaques in memory of 9/11. Of course then you do on to mention France, demonstrating not only your xenophobia but your arrogance as well. Heck many French troops are busy doing peacekeeping work in Africa. Might want to look into the origins of one of your national symbols as well.

It's interesting, this thread is bringing out the worst in everyone.

Ah this is pointless. My views will change when the situation changes which it no doubt will in the coming decades, until then there really is little to discuss here.

Jaguar, I'm not sure how to respond to your post, because you are shooting at targets all over the place. Let me summarize your post instead.

I understand you to be saying that when you get a chance to know an American, through this board or by working along side of them, you seem to think they are OK. But when you have superficial contact with one, you don't like them. That's understandable. I live in the Washington DC area. As the nation's capital, we get a lot of tourists here. They aren't familiar with the area or its customs, and they can be annoying as a result. They get in the way. For an American in a foreign country, the problem is even greater. If you had a chance to get to know those tourists and talk to them in depth, I'm certain that you would end up thinking many more of them are OK.

I understand that you don't care for US foreign policy. I can understand that, and won't even try to defend it. The US foreign policy is there to benefit our country, not yours. If both can benefit at the same time, that's great, but if there is a conflict, we will look out for our best interests. Feel free to hate us for it. I would too, if I were in your shoes. But understand that lots of times, our role as policeman of the world means that we need to take some positions (like the landmine one) that seem bad on the surface, but have good reasons backing them up. I would mention also that foreign policy changes somewhat from administration to administration, and the current administration is supported by only half the citizens of our country. There have been a lot of foreign policy missteps in this administration, but to judge an entire country based on the leadership is unfair. Especially when the leadership has such a tenuous grasp on power.

You don't like US entertainment. You think it is reaching for the lowest common denominator. Well, I'll agree with you on that one. But there are some good shows/movies that come out of that manure pile every once in a while. There are some gems from British TV, but there is a lot of crap there too.

Overall, I understand your frustration, but saying that you hate america as a nation is really going a little overboard, don't you think?

Yes, Jag. It must be tiresome to have to leave the villa and rub shoulders with the riff raff in the town below.

You're right, I need to be more clear.

Think of it as a ratio thing. The number of good experiences to bad is a very poor ratio indeed.

When I come across any external projection of the US, may it be legal, political, military or trade, it's negative. When I come across Americans on the balance it tends to be negative, many I do get on with are varying degrees, embarassed by the state of affairs. I come across next to no good and a heck of a lot of bad. I look at what the biggest threats on the horizon are, DRM/Trusted Computing enforcement, large scale datamining and privicy invasion, further extensions of copyright and IP law to name but a few and they all are being pushed most heavily by the US. Who leads the world on the lawsuit mentality, what country has government supported faith based programs? Which western governmentis most blatantly influenced by big business? (Italy being a close second there) Hate might be a strong word but it's certainly correct a times, it simply has come to embody so many things I dislike. That's the crux.

Jag, of course the foreign policy of the 60s, 70s and 80s is different from the foreign policy of the 00s, but if anything it should serve as notice that things change. The US was reminded of that by finger-wagging French and Dartmouth professors who noted the US may not always be the super-power it is now. No, if trends continue as they are it will be a super-super-power, because US growth continues to outstrip Euro growth and the Japanese, Koreans, etc. are not far behind.

You'll have even more US tourists to deal with and by the way, one of the reasons they are what they are, is that our lower-middle classes are rich enough to travel halfway around the world on holidays. That's why the ugly American is the Euro stereotype, because during the 50s and 60s they all went to Paris on tours because they could afford to, and there were a LOT of them.

By the way, Americans include a lot of African-looking people and Mexican-looking people and Asian-looking people so don't forget them in the stereotypes. A huge number of us are non-white at this point (about a third or more) so you may not recognize us.

And by the way the number-one name for newborns in Amsterdam is "Mohammed" so you soon may not recognize Europeans either.

And there are only a quarter of the UKers than USers, but don't tell me a good number of them don't bellow for their Watney's and fish and chips in your presence.

I'm developing the impression that Jag (and possibly other Europeans, although I do hesitate to paint with so broad a brush) only really likes Americans who are embarrased about being American.

I don't get those people, frankly. I've met and talked with a few. I still don't get them.

Bullseye.

I really don't get your point UT. The growing ethnic diversity has bought both challanges and rewards everywhere, my old home, Australia, is incredibly multicultural, Melbourne has one of the biggest expat greek communities in the world, mixed in with huge Italian, Vietnamese, Chinese communities to boot. Hell the UK has a very high rate as well leading to the most excellent curry you ever will taste.

That said, beyond a bit of 'my country is better than your country so there', I still don't get your point.

Well if you don't like a perspective you're unlikely to have the easiest of relationships with it's proponants are you?

My point is I love you like a brother, man, don't ever change.

(Just so we're clear on this)

Quite honestly, I really don't give a damn what the world thinks of the US anymore. People will think what they want, can't stop them. Situations closer to home are worth worrying about, IMO. Amazing when things get put into their proper perspective, how most things become...petty and worthless to even think about.


Two words: Pandora's Box. ;)

Owning, liking, enjoying, and carrying firearms for personal defense <> "trigger happy."

I haven't shot anybody at this point. Neither have the majority of legal firearms owners in this country.

mmm, yer mom too. Jag - i don't really give a damn what you think of america, americans, or me in particular. i feel no urge to defend my nation, which i am proud of, to you or anyone. there is no point, you are a poisoned well. anything positive i could point out about us, you would fire off a "yeah, but what about..." and i just don't give enough of a shit about you.
as far as i can tell you are just a miserable individual looking for someone to blame everything on, so go right ahead, blame the ills of the world on america, we can take it, we always do, and we will still be the first to send rescue crews when a tragedy strikes somewhere in the world, we'll still send our financial aid packages out and we'll still offer what we have to those in need. but don't worry about that, you couldn't possibly have the time, what with picking our faults apart(which we have plenty of), and all.

- as far as your comment about french peacekeepers being in africa - please, i've worked with the french military. i would rather go to war with a battalion of Jehovah's Witnesses than the french military.

- last thought, do you move around so much because you get bored quickly or do people ask you to leave because they are tired of you always pissing on their shoes?

I think catwoman meant in terms of foreign policy, not firearms ownership. For the record I have no problem with US firearms ownership.

Lookout, there are any positice points to the US but the sheer number, range and imact of the negatives simply outweight them from here. I spend a lot of time dealing with things that most people don't have to and a lot more time looking and who is pushing what, it's probably why I'm more annoyed. What any of this has to do with france is beyond me. I move around for various reasons, at the moment it's a mix of business and uni that keeps me shuffling around but usually it's just a love of travel. I'm sorry you can't seem to make a point without resorting to petty personal attacks, it must be very limiting.

eh, yer mom wears combat boots. and you are the one who brought france into it. you mentioned that they had peacekeepers in africa.


petty personal attacks? just because i single you out and direct my comments at you they are petty? interesting because when you throw out ridiculous broad brush insults on americans its just well-informed debate. strange.

you have yourself on such a pedastal it is laughable.

I consider Switzerland to be my "second country" since my Mom is Swiss, and I am very proud of my Swiss heritage. So here's the answer to what good has one of Jag's countries done for anyone lately.

Switzerland was one of the earliest democracies. It was formed in 1291 when three cantons - Schwyz, Uri and Unterwalden - joined together to protect their borders. That beats the US by almost 500 years. Switzerland has also already had three women who filled the highest governmental office of that country, equivalent to our president. The US has yet to elect a woman as president, as we all know.

The Swiss were formidable fighters. Any Latin student who labored through Ceasar's Commentaries will have spent some time reading about the Swiss, or Helvetians. One of Ceasar's statements: "The Helvetians, because of their geographic situation, are hemmed in on all sides... They do not consider the extent of their territory sufficient either ... for their military prowess, or for their reputation for courage." The Swiss continued as formidable fighters throughout the Middle Ages. Many other kingdoms and powers hired Swiss soldiers because they were best in all Europe. Swiss mercenaries continued to serve in other armies for centuries to come and earned an unrivalled reputation for their skill and courage. Swiss soldiers fought to the last man defending the King of France in the French Revolution. Even today the Pope is protected by the Swiss Guard.

Interesting enough, it was the Swiss who founded the Red Cross in Geneva in 1863. The symbol for the Red Cross is the inverse of the Swiss national flag. Three Swiss have been recipients of the Nobel Peace prize, and at least 22 others have won Nobel prizes, mostly in the area of the sciences. This is a stunning achievement for a country of only about 6 million people.

Some famous Swiss: Albert Einstein, Carl Jung, Hermen Hesse, Jean-Paul Marat, Jean-Jaques Rousseau, and Paul Klee, to name only a few.

There has been much criticism of Swiss actions in WWII, and some of it is indeed deserved, but people need to keep in mind that Switzerland was surrounded on all sides by Hitler's armies and in order to help preserve its neutrality, the country was forced to make some unpaletable concessions. Despite this fact, Switzerland permanently sheltered 60,000 civilian refugees (0.85 % of the 1990 population) and 60,000 soldiers, most of them allied troops (amounting to a total of 1.7 % of the 1990 population). The US itself repeated turned away Jewish refugees and accomodated only some 250,000 Jewish refugees from 1939 to 1945 (0.1 % of the 1990 population), and, therefore, has no right to throw stones.

Given the fact that Switzerland is a small land-locked country with a small population in comparison with other Western countries, its current prosperity and the contributions its people have made to Western civilization is nothing short of stunning. We Americans are soooooo ignorant of other nations.



attachment: "The Dying Lion; Swiss memorial to its soldiers who fell defending the King of France.

I think I've clarified my comments enough to make my point clear enough. On the flipside. I didn't drag france into this, someone, probably you brought it up for some reason, I retorted.

Your comments are petty personal attacks because of their nature, attacking my lifestyle and random odd claims about my disposition that have nothing to do with what's at hand. Maybe I should have used ad homium but latin is a dignified language and your comments are indeed very petty. If you care to point out the part where I said 'every single american is X' I would be glad, I could have sworn I described a European perspective on America and why. Obviously I've also listed a range of personal views, most of which were to do with the country as a whole rather than it's constitutions. If I'm on such a pedestal I'd love you to point out why and try and get me off.

So far you've shown a heck of a lot of indignation, a penchant for personal attacks and about as much substance as aerogel. Give me a shot, point out where I'm wrong on my points and what I'm missing that's so wonderful, I'll give you more ground than you think, I'm not against changing positions if you have evidence to back up your arguments.Hell check my early posts about firearms here if you have trouble believing that. Might require a little more than average-verses-GPD claims about foreign aid though. Of course it's much easier to squark random insults than make a durable point so I won't hold my breath.