Sex Wars
 

I didn't want to hijack Catwomans Oprah thread so...

This whole idea of using jealousy to try to get a guy really seems misguided. Back in the day, if I was borderline interested in a girl, finding out she was sleeping with random guys would probably have removed her from the potential serious relationship group. In the States, young straight women are the fastest growing HIV/AIDS category, how much random sex are they having? Don't mind me I'm just a Catholic Dad of two girls and this stuff worries me.

Well you know what they say about catholic schoolgirls.

The media loves hyping this stuff, I wouldn't worry that much.

Re: Sex Wars
 

Hey, Griff, I agree with you.

Oooo Griff, hope ya didn't read that NY Times Magazine article a couple weeks ago. :eek:

I rest my case.

Re: Sex Wars
 

Girls don't need to sleep with other guys to make me jealous. All it takes is some gentle petting, and then no attention at all.

Yeah, but the Times' "Friends With Benefits" piece* was NOT hype, in that many teens and pre-teens across all demographic lines are engaging in this self-destructive behavior. In my middle to upper-middle class, mighty white census region, middle school students are engaging in non-intercourse sexual activity at record rates (appx. 36% of 8th grade boys and 25% of 8th grade girls). When and where is this most likely to happen? In Mom's bed, between 3:30 and 5:30 pm. :eek:!! I guess I won't be working full-time until June 2012, when my youngest is out of high school!


*Sorry, the Times article cannot be viewed for free, but here is a little commentary on the article in the Boston Globe. (If anyone has a better link to the actual text of the NYT piece, I'd appreciate it!)

First of all, how can you believe those stats for sure, what are they based on? A survey of students? I remember doing one of those a few years ago during my final year, I know at least half the people in my group lied one way or another, when it comes to sex, a bunch of guys are even more likely to lie and play this stuff up.

My experience (and it's not out of date yet, I don't think there are many real difference between a middle class white schools in melbourne and a middle class white schools in the US) is that the girls were almost always the zombies, watched MTV, bought the latest trendy outfit, went to all the parties, whatever it took to fit in perfectly, if you're girls are capable of independant thought the chances are you've got nothing to worry about.

Teenagers are horny, it's not world-stopping. Yea, this stuff happens, I'm not denying that but most self respecting teenage girls aren't that interested in randomly giving head. Maybe there is a difference in US schools, I don't know but I still feel the article is overblown. The day I see an article reporting that teenagers ahve sex, some girls are sluts, some guys put a lot of pressure on girls and somehow the world goes on I'll be more inclinded to beleive it.

I admit for this my friends and the circles I moved/move in my a godawful statistical sample and I agree with what you're saying but I feel that both Griff and 99 are smart cookies and probably have daughters with their heads screwed on.

As for self respect and random sex, I quote a great source of wisdom: 'There is a time and place for everything and that's college. '

remember the boy/girl sex question formula:

divide a man's answer by 2, multiply the girls answer by 2

18% of boys, 50% of girls?

mmmmmmm........lesbians:p :p :p :p

Ok here is where I feel I have to defend Aaliyah (R.I.P. baby girl). Actually, I'll defend Jessica, Mandy and Brandy too. Unlike Ms. Spears, those young ladies didn't turn on the "sexy" factor until they were just about "of age" (read old enough to start exploring the idea of being sexy). Brittany came out of the gate as a little miss "hottie" with her schoolgirl getup in her first video. And since she became so big at that point, that seemed to be where a lot of teen girls wanted to look "trendy", as you put it. Some of the clothes aren't that bad. Hell, I remember in the 70's there were plenty of young girls I knew that wore halter and tube tops. I would think *that* would be considered "racy" by some, even back then.

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All the trendy clothes are (IMO) slutty. If you want to wear trendy clothes (what teenage girl doesn't), you have to have a "body" to go in them, and that means you have to conform to the trendy look.

As someone who would have never conform to the trendy look (back in my HS days, the 80s), I *have* noticed that the body type isn't as "perfect" as it once was. I see now that having a "fatty" and being a bit on the thick side isn't looked down on anymore. I mean, I know that girls will still go on diets and try to be stick skinny, but it doesn't seem to be *as* dire anymore (plus why diet when you can ask mummy and daddy for money for plastic surgery..but that's a WHOLE 'nuther thread!).

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The trendy look came about because sex sells. Music sells. Music + sex sells alot. Watch BET or MTV (videos) for 30 minutes and try to count all the girls in slutty clothes, dirty dancing and shakin that thang.

True, but the thing one must remember is that those women are GROWN, adult women, and are able to wear whatever they choose. Young ladies (girls) certainly should not be wearing such clothing, and it's up to parents to make sure that their child is not leaving the house with less than what is acceptable. Now, what they do after they leave the house is the individual's responsibility.

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The teenage boys want the teenage girls in the trendy clothes with the great bodies, because society is telling them that is what they want, and that it's ok to have sex.

Not necessarily. It's been my experience that some boys will go after the girls who are no so trendy and great bodies. I had my fair share of offers, I just said no to random sex because that wasn't what I was into.

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Back in the 50's and 60's, kids were having sex, but the girls who were having sex were known as the trashy ones, and all the boys knew who were easy and who wouldn't put out.

True as that may be, remember: some guys love a challenge, so not putting out didn't guarantee no offers (or at least, the opportunity to try to get the girl to put out).

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Now MOST of the girls are having sex in high school, if not before, and if they aren't, they are ridiculed and pressured. ("What's wrong with you??")

*from the NYTimes article*
"Among them is Caity, a thin, 14-year-old freshman with long blond hair and braces, who says that she is a virgin but that she occasionally ''hooks up'' with guys. Caity doesn't make clear what she means by ''hooking up.'' The term itself is vague -- covering everything from kissing to intercourse -- though it is sometimes a euphemism for oral sex, performed by a girl on a boy. Sitting next to Caity is her best friend, Kate, also 14, whom everyone affectionately refers to as the ''prude'' of the group. Outgoing and attractive, she's had a boyfriend for a couple of months, but they haven't even kissed yet.

In her New England exurban world, where, I was told, oral sex is common by eighth or ninth grade, and where hookups may skip kissing altogether, Kate's predicament strikes her friends, and even herself, as bizarre. ''It's retarded,'' she says, burying her head in Caity's shoulder. ''Even my mom thinks it's weird.'' "
http://tinyurl.com/2xtmm

Weird? weird???? Even the mother says it's "weird"??? Good grief!! Well, that says it all, dudnit? :rolleyes:

I can't picture that conversation..
'hello honey, how was school'
'not too bad, stacy was pulling a train behind the classrooms again'
'that's wierd'

The main difference, I suspect, is sex education.

Plus, you knuckleheads talk funny. ;)

Jealousy is one of nature's cruelest tools. For the jealousee, it causes no end of (often irrational) pain, insecurity and heartache. However it's fundamental evolutionary purpose - to prevent your female mate from being impregnated by another male or your male mate impregnating loads of other slu.. females - is probably still well ingrained in our biological make-up.

Women (and men) are well aware of it's power. I have been guilty of it many a time, there's this guy I live with... (oh, have I told you that one? :rolleyes: )

I don't, however, remember doing this at school. I don't think girls are sexually aware enough (despite the suggestion that they are through make-up, short skirts etc.) to understand the true power of their sexuality and the impact of jealousy. Of course I only speak from personal experience, and it's quite possible that I've erased all memory of... :joint:
Nevertheless, although women can be a conniving, manipulative bunch (if benevolently), I don't think you need worry too much about your daughters. Teenagers talk about having sex a lot more than they actually do, and yes they would lie in a survey (just in case somebody reads it). So have faith in their judgement, relax, and they'll respect you for it. :)

http://blackstatic.net/0574.gif
Megatokyo rocks.

Could you explain further for us the concept that these connivings and manipulations are somehow benevolent?

Benevolent in motive - i.e. love.

I appreciate the vote of confidence. While I'm no prude (we talk about sex a lot at our dinner table), I am particular about how the kids comport themselves. An extension of not having TV in the house is that the kids have no clothes with slogans or advertising on them. Absolutely NO shorts with pithy sayings on the behind. HB and I have a good laugh when we pass some pre-adolescent poptart on the street with "Princess" on her butt -- what's the matter kid, don't your parents love you? He suggested we could make a fortune selling shorts that say "Welcome to My Ass."

The thing is, we know perfectly reasonable people who lament the oversexualization of US teens and preteens yet see no connection between advertising the impending availablility of their 10 year old's behind with her eventual desire to participate in mainstream casual sex. "But everyone's wearing them; they're so cute; how can I say no?"

Sigh.

That is the brilliantestest thing I have heard in ages. Good on ya.

I was in Target last night buying some diapers and other junk, when I walked past the girl's clothing area. There on the end rack, where everyone could see it, was a hot pink shirt about the right size for a 4 year old girl. It said in glittery writing "Blah blah blah, I'm not listening to you."

Who the hell would buy a shirt like that for their kid? I would have the urge to smack a kid wearing a shirt like that.

I know exactly who would buy that shirt for their child, and what's more is that I know she shops at Target and am willing to bet cash money that she already has.

My brother's girlfriend has a 3 year old daughter who is an absolute cutie. Unfortunately, she's also spoiled rotten and suffers from a princess complex. Her mother never quite managed to grow up and fell into this "spice girl" brand of "girl power". You know the kind, believing that sex is a weapon, boys are dumb, blah blah blah. And she's dragging her little girl into it. Making matters worse is that she is now carrying my brother's child (a boy, God help him), so I can't even tell him to just dump the bitch anymore. Not that it would have made a difference. She's had his stones in a lockbox from the first time she showed him her tits.

survival of the fittest

And Hello Kitty. :)

I'm not the biggest brand name fan, but when it comes to clothes, I'd have no problem hawking Adidas.

Congrats on the no TV, just make sure it doesn't backfire, nothing is more more appealing than the forbidden and what your parents frown upon. I don't think I've met a girl yet who didn't go though a period of close to open combat with her parents, buys seem to be able to keep it to a slightly lower key of railig against the rules. That said, if they're happy with it, fantastic. For what it's worth I think unrestricted net access is far less damaging than the precision targeted marketing that targeting that aims for teenage girls on TV, that stuff could fuck anyone up, goatse.cx just makes you want to wash your eyes with bleach, not puke up everything you eat until you look like a famine victim.

That almost made me spray coffee on my powerbook.

Btw, by HB do you mean Hubris Boy? Tell that bastard to start posting here again, I miss him.

Nicely word it, love it.

Spice-girls brand of post-feminisim, the biggest sellout in modern times if you ask me.

i grew up with a tv in every room, and they were all on 24/7. especially the one in the kitchen, so we never talked during dinner. when we moved into our new house, i REFUSED to have a tv in the upstairs living room (open floorplan and you would be able to see it from the kitchen table). my husband hated the idea, but the three of us spend a lot more quality time wrestling around on the floor, reading and just hanging out without the tv distracting us.

Yes, the one and only Hubris. He's been rather busy lately. I'll mention your kind thoughts -- that and the Hello Kitty reference ought to get him moving. I think that, like me, he was laying low while the most recent Cellar turbulence/infusion of new members settles down. Hope everyone is well.

When you see 10, 11, 12 year old girls wearing less cloth than what's in a t-shirt, you have to wonder about the parents. What buffoon would let the kid out of the house looking like a 42nd street hooker? If any of my sisters (I'm the youngest of 8 - 4 boys, 4 girls) would have tried that, my old man would've tanned their asses.

Of course, some of these teens are no better. Cut-off shirts and "Daisy Dukes" are good if you want to get laid, but these kids don't need to get laid. They need to get an education. A woman with everything on display will get banged like a screen door in a tornado, but a smart woman will get Mr. Right.

But consider this: these future welfare mothers will grow up, dress the same way, with these same attitudes, and wonder why they'll die bitter and alone in a studio apartment with 3 dozen cats, piles of newspapers, and everyone refering to her as "the crazy old lady down the block".

Just the thought of it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

no...

wait...

It's the Sambuca.

Maybe not Mr Right, but at least Mr Rightnow will treat her better and give her better sex.:)