EU bends over and takes it like a man...
 

The European Union and the United States formally agreed on Friday to let American border officials access the personal information of every European heading to America on commercial airlines, despite objections from members of European Parliament, which voted three times against the deal.

http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,63650,00.html

Why is this such a bad thing? It seems reasonable that knowing who is flying in and out would be a positive.

I wasn't saying it was bad or good.

I just tossed it out there for people to decide.

Thanks. My question wasn't really directed at you. I'm sure someone will be appalled and give some reasons that this is the "work of the debil", but I'm not so sure.

Does the agreement go both ways? Do European governments get personal information on every American flying into their countries? If I jump on SwissAir for a flight to Zurich, does this mean that Swiss officials will be busily going over MY government dossier?

Brazil did that and it made them very unpopular among American tourists.

No Marichiko its just us getting checked by America. *heavy sigh*

Y'know what? I am too drunk to post abot this now. were I to try I htink my post would be too heavy with expletives to be considered...friendly......and I would probably launch an invective against the American air bases here and the fact that significant parts of the Starwars defense apparatus are going to be staged here with no protection afforded to us ....despite the fact it will make us a potential target on America's behalf....ok I'd best stop now I can feel the bile rising in my craw and that's never good....

If I understand correctly there are about 15 different items US want to know, one of them my credit cart numbers and that I don't understand.
So I think if US is checking everything why don't Brazil or EU have the right to know everything about US-visitors

I couldn't agree more. Between the US and the European nations, the US is by far the more violent country, and if you judge by statistics alone Great Britain or Switzerland has far more to fear from a random American entering their country then we do from a Swiss or an Englishman. The one-sidedness of the agreement combined with America's national propensity to violence, makes me veiw this as little better than the act of an international bully on the school playground, pushing the other smaller nations around.

So how do you account for the fact that terrorists could enter the country through seemingly innocuous countries? It's not the Swiss or the Englishman they're worried about, it's the Arab who flew into Switzerland first. Should we just be fair and check no one at the borders?

I believe it likely has more to do with the fact that there are very tall buildings in Europe that are still standing.

Since that policy has gone into place, I've decided I will not, under any circumstance, visit the US, I know on this I am far from alone, I have also pulled out of some investments in the US for related reasons, frankly, fuck off, I don't expected to be treated like a criminal.

Border security, airport security, port security and anything else that has been beefed up is a fucking joke and anyone with 2 brain cells to run together can work out that it's nothing more than a feel good move by an incompetent administration incapable of dealing with the real causes of the War On Terror. Go ahead and violate your own citizens rights, fine but if you start fucking with mine, goodbye.

I can see doing this for international travel. I mean the country you are going to should know who you are, but the country from which you're leaving shouldn't be keeping tabs on you.

Sadly some people in America are too dim to realize that Americans have the right "to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures..." and that this right "shall not be violated" by the government. We have the right to travel anonymously without government asking for our identification. I have the right to go to a train station, airport, etc., hand them cash, and to travel anywhere domestically without showing a single speck of identification.

i'm not saying i agree with doing it, but the theory on the cc's is that several of the plane tickets on 9/11 were paid for by the same cc through different vendors. with this they can cross reference that type of info.

oh no, one more person who isn't fond of us, threatening not to visit or profit by owning shares of american companies.

The Arab may go to Switzerland and hop a SwissAir flight from Zurich to New York, but believe me, neither the Swiss nor any other Euopean nation are going to grant him a passport from their country for his pains. The times being what they are, I can understand how the people at immigration and customs might go over that Arab's documents with a fine toothed comb, but to do the same to a Swiss or any other European national? Its ridiculous, not to mention petty and arrogant on the part of the US (as well as a waste of time and the tax payers' dollar when they should be checking for far more likely bad guys). And just as an aside, if I were a foreign national bent on doing the US harm, I would not blithely fly into O'Hare or LaGuardia or Washington National. I would fly to Mexico instead and then cross the border unnoticed from there.

Not threatening, just not. As for the investments, not shares anyway, other types of equity, in the end there are better profits to be had elsewhere anyway. Not to mention they're all technically based in the Caymen islands et al. Amuses me the concept of these mighty 'american' companies, they pay no tax, manufacture (and are slowly moving R&D etc) overseas and yet there is this wierd patriotic fetish about them.The thing is, I'm not alone, I know more and more people that want nothing to do with US companies, the US government or want to go to the US, from over here more and more it just has trouble written all over it.

Oh, and the terrorist attacks in Spain which killed 190 people and injured more than 1,800 others don't count? Nor does the ongoing war of terrorist attrition in Paris and Rome? Or how about our buddies, the IRA, who got quite a bit of financing from Irish ex-patriots and people of Irish descent right here in the good old anti-terrorist USA? If Great Britain were to institute a similiar security program to the one we now demand of the EU, every American citizen sould expect to spend days in Heathrow while they were checked out for possible links to IRA sympathisizers. Remember all those car bombings in Ulster and in London and just about everywhere else in the British Isles that you could name? Or don't the Spanish and British count because CNN didn't feature them on the news last night and the American people have the collective memory of a single Mayfly which lives for precisely 24 hours? Jeez, Wolf, I expected more from you then that, you seem like an intelligent person.

This is a tough one...I understand the security end of it, but tourism brings in lots of money...especially here in Philadelphia. You oughta see all the Koreans on Independence Mall. :)

One of my friends is EXTREMELY hard core over this issue.

no government issued identification, no credit cards, no bank account, nuthin. works a real job. checks are cashed at issuing bank.

There is a birth certificate.

there is a social security card, and the ONLY thing the number is ever so much as written down on is tax forms.

this became problematic recently, because of the USPO requiring photo ID to rent/reregister PO boxes.

Speaking of Philadelaphia as a tourist/terror destination ... has there been anything more in the news about the paper airplanes and cassette tapes in a foreign language that were found by City Hall and the Masonic Temple on Tuesday or Wednesday morning?

Feelings for America, sympathetic or otherwise, have nothing to do with the proposal. Background info on people entering America may well be useful in sourcing criminal perpetrators of any nature. Now, whether it is fair for the US to request this without reciprocation is questionable. But 'it's not fair' screaming rants aside, do we actually need this information? A collection of credit cards and social security numbers may help mastermind the biggest fraud in history (just who is going to look after this enormously valuable database?) but I think the majority of Europeans would agree that documenting, brain scanning and finger printing every American entering their country would not only be a logistical nightmare but largely futile. Where there is a system there is a mole, no matter its sophisticate.

There are two real issues here which are getting confused: security, which is a real issue for both Americans and Europeans; and blame - who's fault it is that security issues have arisen. Some would argue that the US has brought it on itself (I wont get into this one on a Friday afternoon), but no matter the originator, it is still an issue, and personally, I couldn't care less who accesses my details (within the usual data protection parameters). I have nothing to hide. But I do think the favour should be reciprocated, and there should be a lot more sharing going on.

well, nooo, there safe now 'cause they agreed to pull out.

that may have been sarcasm, i'm not sure.

Wolf, there are ways around the photo id thing too, I can hook you up with some people who can help you get photo ID's, help you buy property, get a job, etc. without ever using your social security #.

THere is a nice article in 2600 (Fall 2003, I think) about how to survive without SS#s including (remarkably) how to open non-interest bearing checking accounts without one.

The only problem with using a fake ID to obtain a po box (even at a packaging service) is that its a Federal Offense - that is some high-stakes stuff. I can't be sure, for example, that the gummit isn't running checks on all who register po boxes (including those at packaging services - you have to fill out a federal form to get one). Let's say that a bogus ID was used to get one. They might just get a hair up their ass and decide to stake it out and pick you up then you land in federal court. If the AG decides you were up to something you weren't, you are screwed.

Its tough staying anonymous these days.

And not to nit pik but you do not have the right to travel via commercial vehicles (planes, trains, rental cars) anonymously. The carrier is perfectly within its rights to require some info on who you are - its their vehicle after all.

No line, they have the info 72 hours before you take off.:)

Thank you, Bruce. I feel much better now.;)

Not really. In rural western Colorado everyone has to have a PO Box because the postal service doesn't have the time or the energy to send carriers out on routes that encompass hundreds of square miles. Last Fall I got a PO Box out there without having to show any ID and using a home address which was "Mile Marker no. 94, Colorado Highway 34." I used my real name when filling out the forms, but I could have called myself anything and they wouldn't have known the difference. That's still what my car registration and driver's license say, by the way. I figure I might as well make it as hard as possible for the bastards to track me down.

That was last year ... this is apparently a relatively new reg.

I think most Europeans aren't "aware" of the Government trying to hunt you down at any moment. Maybe we have nothing to fear from our governments, because they are nice people and we are nice people :p

Check out this guy in Britain that had a visit from the authorities after he text messaged some Clash lyrics. :rolleyes:

Y'know in Britain the Sun newspaper is known primarily for its rather loose grasp of facts

I know that, but reading the story, it didn't sound like they were making a big deal out of it. No sensationalism, just that they are watching communications. ;)

Sucker :)

I don't know about Europe, but I do know about the US and what I know has sent me underground;)

Collecting a monthly check is hardly underground.:confused: