Why we fight. Guilt?
 

A little something from Joe Sobran. Once you’ve killed a certain number of people, even with the best will in the world, it becomes awkward to make the cheerful admission, “I goofed.” Halfway through his river of blood, Macbeth reflects that going back would be as tedious as going all the way across. Actually, it turns out that he hasn’t even gone halfway yet.

This is why President Bush will “stay the course” in Iraq. Forget oil, money, power, and even reelection: The deepest vested interest is guilt. Bush has done things he can’t bear to renounce, no matter how costly to America continuing them may yet become.

If he could just shift the guilt to some of his soon to be indicted (guess who gave Chalabi the info he sent to Iran) neo-con advisers, maybe we could pull out.

That would make cherny lady macbeth.
This could have a silver lining after all.

"Out! Out, damned spot!" Nice doggie.;)

The shell game is over and you guys are still trying to figure out where the pea is. You should be more interested in the state of your twenty dollar bill, which by now is blocks away.

Meanwhile,
It's too early to tell whether they were right or wrong.

"They" who? As far as that little news snippet, sure you bet! Like the Saudi royal family, for example, is really going to relinquish its power. I imagine the Arab league signed this document with disappearing ink, figuring that promises made to evil Christians don't count and betrayal begets betrayal as in the West's failed agreements with the Arab world dating back to the beginning of the 20th century and before.

What does that mean? It means democracy cannot be forced upon nations. The only democracy that works is one that the little people want. If they don't start the wheel rolling, then any attempt to impose democracy will fail. When those Arab states are ready for reform is when those Arab states will demand democracy. Any attempt to force reform on them will only lead to long term disaster for western nations who try to impose reform. Is Iraq not a classic example? Are the lessons of Somolia not yet learned? Did we not learn from South Vietnam?

When a nation is ready for democracy, then the nation will demand democracy. Ie Poland. The velvet revolution. Russia. Any attempt to impose reform in any Arab nation will only make the US an enemy of those people. Had the mental midget's Axis of Evil speech not interfered with domestic Iranian politics, then reformers in Iran would not have been undermined. Again, lessons from history.

Pffffft! And since when has America's leadership ever learned from history? We have a president who is a former frat boy, reformed drunk who can't even put together a complete sentence. We elected another president who played second man to a chimp. The American people as a whole run from any understanding of history as if such knowledge was proferred to them by the devil. Learning from history! You wild eyed, dreamer, you. Just lay down quietly while your Aunt Marichiko gets you a cold compress for your head. There, there now.

You take the arab league seriously? You actually think they mean that??? That's a pretty damn pathetic straw to be clinging to UT. The arab league is like a weaker more ineffectual version of the UN general assembaly.

The interesting thing was Al-Jazeera (you remember those terrorists) lambasting arab rulers for denouncing the prisoner abuse in iraq while doing far worse themselves (resulting in them being banned in saudi).

Clearly freedom of the press isn't the first social reform in the new leaf you think those guys have turned over.

According to the Weekly World News (a fine publication, available on many American Supermarket Checkout Racks, next to the bubble gum and handy eyeglass repair kits) we are fighting because the Bonesman-in-Chief meant to say "Iran has weapons of mass destruction," fucked up the speech, and we were kind of stuck.

The Weekly World News, much like Le Monde, is indeed a most respected publication.

I used that news item but I could have used any number of other ones which didn't represent the Arab League but which represented individual countries' moves. If they are just giving lip service to Democratic reforms it is at least more than they used to do.

"They" is the Vulcans/neo-cons/chickenhawks who said that democratizing Iraq would lead to similar pressure across the Middle East, and although things seem to suck right now, it's STILL too early to figure out whether they were right. We can't see what point of the curve we are on in history.

I agree that the character of the people is the major aspect that determines whether they are capable of maintaining a Democracy. Then again, they probably don't need to get it perfect, they only need to get better than what they have now and it would be a huge advance.

A half-assed democracy is not really a democracy.

If you are implying Le Monde is of the same quality as WWN, fuck you, moron. Seriously, it's one of the most respected broadsheets in europe so if, like a hell of a lot of your other halfwitted copatriots think because it's french it must be shit, get the pole out of your ass and grow up. Everyone else is laughing at you.

Ok UT, where are these hundreds of other moves. So far I've seen curbing of media in Saudi and the army shooting rioters in beruit this week, I must've missed the free and fair elections in egypt.

I was only kidding. I figured the comparison was so absurd so as not to require a smiley.

Sorry, i was about to ammend that post to make sure that if was bolded.

In the age of freedom fries it wouldn't shock me any more.

Yes i get the irony of your post, ill go wipe the egg off my face now.

Things don't get better overnight. I'm not going to seek through my browser history to find cites for you, but I'll try to repost them in future.

Who here has argued otherwise?

So what you're saying is is there is no evidence of any real change(lets face it, if there had been anything major we would have heard about it) and in fact the situation in multiple places appears to be rapidly deteriorating (Saudi, Lebanon) but you have like this....vibe that things will get better, which totally justifies everything done and all the lies told for this quagmire.

I think the fact that the american-elected governing council, which has no legitimacy with the people picked a CIA stooge who has no legitimacy with the people to be president says all you need to know about how well things are going and how well they are going to go.

Don't talk to me about "vibe" in a thread where we assert that the nation's foreign policy is set on the basis of a "guilt" that some columnist has located. You sure got a stiffy for THAT vibe huh?

I notice that this stooge governing council has produced no mass graves. There's a massive change for you. and yet it doesn't make the news. Maybe it's the dogs that aren't barking that show us where the change really is.

I never commented on the original article, I don't really care about it either way to be honest, poor bastard has to fill the inches some way.

Dude, the guy was a baath party member for a good decade, so technically, he's probably at least complicit in a fair few. Damn that liberal media eh, how dare they talk about the ongoing fighting, coalition partners pulling out, or anything bad, geez, anything to diss bush eh? If they were real patriotic americans they would just air how iraq is now the land of milk and honey and little children wave american flags on every corner.

Wake up, there is no change, saudi is repressing their people further, lebanon is on the brink of civil war again, isreal is invading the occupied lands and the rest of the arab world is wallowing in it's usual political stagnation and there is nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. The governing council are puppets and the people know it, the next government will be puppets and the people know it and the chances of the CIA letting someone the people want come into power (and stay there without having an unfortunate accident) are statistically nil.


Secondly, X is evil is a fucking stupid reason to invade a country, particularly from a country that has put more bloody and brutal dictators in place (including saddam) than anyone else. Please don't try and claim the us has, in any shape or form, the moral high ground.

A silent dog signifies business as usual, he only barks when something unusual is going on. I agree with Jag. Its business as usual in the Arab world. Why shouldn't it be? What have we actually done to prove to the Arab people that democracy is a better way of life? We've invaded their homes, tortured their men, killed innocent women and children with our bombs, and the conditions in Iraq under the US military are worse than they were under Saddam, i.e. no electricity, little things like that. Our Western viewpoint is completely foreign to the average Middle Easterner. The people there lack the education to effectively participate in the democratic process. They don't even WANT the democratic process because it is being forced down their throats by people with guns from an alien culture and religion. All they want is for us to go away. They'll say anything if they feel that will help make us vanish from the scene.

Now I think about it, by UT's logic, the daily headline should be '130000 US troops DIDN'T DIE TODAY!!! Praise bush!'

You have the first post after the original article.

...

Well, let us wait a few years and see whom history proves right.

To review, you believe there will be no change, and I believe it is too early to tell.

Yea, I posted a light joke, this demonstrates I believe the article is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Nice backflip, first you're saying that the arab world is changing and you have things to back it up, now you're saying it's too early. I agree, it is too early but call me cynical but I don't think anything will change and I'm yet to see any evidence to proove me wrong.

The last sentence of my first post to this thread: In my second post to the thread I said:So when you say The only conclusion I can draw is that you aren't reading my posts.

Then why point out some quote from the arab league and claims of all these articles in your history to back you up.

If your point always was simply it's too early to tell, why post anything it all, it wasn't even related at that point.

To remind people that this sort of reformation is the real reason and remains the real reason, not "guilt".

by pointing out that, despite the evidence so far, good things might happen?

Yup.

It wouldn't happen immediately. First they would give lip-service to reforms and try to dismiss them.

You do realize the arab league has been saying that stuff for nigh on decades right?

Can you back that up, Jag?:confused:

The Arab league has compiled a very nice listing ot the West's betrayals of the Arab world. An interesting page to look at is this one which is a listing of Arab martyrs:

http://www.arableagueonline.org/arab...=225&page_no=8

Cruise around on that site for a while and then tell me just how co-operative you think ANY Arab nation is going to be.

All I could find was the Pals and Jews debacle which makes your statement I quoted, highly inflated.:p

OK, try this:

http://blog.newstandardnews.net/iraq...es/000423.html

And what we in the West need to understand is how deeply the Arabs continue to feel about the whole Palestinian issue. In their minds it is a constant reminder of Western betrayal, whether we think of it that way or not. And I guess I should have stated that when I said "very nice list of betrayal" that I meant from the Arab's standpoint, which is not necessarily my own.

So Jamails whining about traffic jams and humvees parked next to cemetaries, portrays "the West's betrayals of the Arab world"?:rolleyes:

Oh, I don't know Bruce. I'm just trying to get people to step out of their Western mindset and look at the whole thing as an Arab might. I'm not saying that I think they are right - they seem pretty fanatic to me - but I guess I can sort of understand why they might feel as they do. I mean when you look at those sites and follow some of the links, do you get the impression that we are making any progress towards winning them over? I don't, but maybe I'm missing something.

I have no doubt the Arabs think differently, have different customs, and don't understand or like us very much. My point was that "the West's betrayals of the Arab world" is a pretty broad brushed and grandiose statement to apply to the incidents you've cited. Bush Sr's inciting Iraquis to revolt , after the first Gulf War, then leaving them to swing in the breeze, would be one action that would come under your description, In my opinion.:)