The Slaughter Game
 

Oh boy......
The reports coming in from the Middle East right now are shocking.....Israel has a right to defend itself but really she should learn the art of restraint. In the days of Rome and in the middle ages and again during the Nazi occupations communities have fallen victim to punitive attacks by the dominant power. The psychology of Israel's attacks on Gaza is clearly that of a military power punishing the conquered .....No matter the pretty name they have given the operation.

Operation Rainbow

I like the part where it said that "The army expressed deep sorrow for the loss of innocent life." How very civilized of them, I'm sure. As I read that article, I couldn't help but think of the parellels between that story and the story of the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw in WWII. "Lest we never forget..." Hmmmm, I guess Israel has a selective memory and is busy working on a "final solution" of its own.

"US President George W Bush called for restraint from both sides and said he had asked Israel for "clarification".

"It is essential that people respect innocent life in order for us to achieve peace," he said. "
No comment. :angry:


"Reuters news agency quoted the UN special human rights envoy in the Palestinian territories, John Dugard, as saying that the strikes were "war crimes" and amounted to collective punishment violating humanitarian and international human rights law.

The Israeli military said it was too early to say exactly what had happened, although it suggested that explosives laid by Palestinians could have been responsible.

Army spokeswoman Brigadier General Ruth Yaron said that Israeli forces had fired warning shots after seeing "armed men in the midst of the demonstration".

"We regret the loss of innocent life and are offering to treat those who are injured in our hospitals," she added. "

Oh sure, if you were a Palestinian, just how good would you feel about the treatment your loved ones and friends would recieve in an Israeli hospital after that little incident?

Christ! It gets worse and worse.

Always assuming of course that the Ambulance would be allowed through

The Palestinians don't have the luxury of ambulances. The story said the wounded were being transported to the hospital on donkey's!

They have a small number of ambulances. but not nearly enough and there was some delay in allowing the ambulances through

The one pictured on this evening's news had 'U.N. Ambulance' (in English) stencilled on the side but there only appeared to be one, otherwise people were snatching the wounded from the ground and running with them. ?Where.

I was with friends when we heard the line from Pres Bush about respecting innocent lives achieving peace, and the shock we all jointly experienced was sickening. Does anyone know what he's taking? The expressionless face appeared drugged, disturbingly so.

Wolf? Any idea what medication he's on?

from the BBC website

Operation Rainbow

I think Sharon is once more trying to provoke a strong response from the Palestinians in order to justify his political goals.

Sharon is scum! :mad:

Sharon is a hero and it's nice to see Israel standing up for themselves for a change. You kill one of ours, we kill 10 of yours, or 100, or a 1000 until you stop or there are no more of you.

That's the theory the Palestinians have been operating under.

That area is just teeming with heroes.

no comment

Ya cause if there's one thing we are all really used to hearing about it's Israel's reluctance to "stand up for themselves"

You got that right. Israel has allowed themselves to be attacked for nearly 50 years now without an appropriate level of retribution. Israel needs to tell the Palestinians if they attack even once more, they'll kill every last one of them. And then...do it.

Great. So you advocate the Israelis implement a Final Solution against the stateless palestinians?

Get my response in early for the inevitable

"why weren't you this worked up the last time the Palestinians killed Israeli civilians in a suicide bomb attack"

I do get depressed when I read of such attacks..I do wish along way back the Palestinians had headed the advice of Gandi and taken the path of nonviolent resistanc..but they didn't and they have their extremists and it is the extremists that not call the shots and have the respect of the Palestinians, why?, because the moderates have nobody to talk to..

It is in the hands of the Israelis, no it is the moral responsibility, of the Israelis to deliver a peace plan. Instead we have Sharon, ever ready to poke the ants nest with his stick, ever ready to use the excuse of the ants biting in order to knock down the inconvient anthill.

Radar

Not at all, which is why I'd give them a choice to stop attacking so they could live in peace and why I'd allow them a week to evacuate before launching the attack. Anyone who stayed would be there because they wanted to fight. If I advocated a final solution I'd suggest killing them all right now.

I do advocate the use of deadly force against aggressors like the Palestinians who use force against me, my loved ones or my country.

Wrong. It is in the hands of the aggressors (The Palestinians) to stop their aggression and unreasonable demands. All they have to do is stop killing Israeli people and they can live in peace on what land they currently have. If they choose to attack, they are choosing to die.

Radar I've seen you have this argument with many before and I know that this thread will not progress until you bugger off, which you will not do, so I'm going to bugger off myself.

I just notice that you use Ireland in your IM profile names, which part or Ireland did your ancestors come from? so next time I am back home I can poke fun at them over what an idiot son they have spawned. I can tell you straight away that your views are not ones that anyone in Ireland would advocate.

The difference between Ireland and the Palestinians is Ireland actually owned the land and the Palestinians didn't. The Palestinians never owned that land in the history of the planet Earth.

And half of my family is from Cork, and the other is from Kilkenny.

Goddamn Palestinians and their unreasonable demands for self determination and basic human rights *shakes fist at gaza* hiding out amongst those stupid palestinian civilian sympathisers! *fires missile into a small block of apartments * Har! Gotcha ya dirty raghead! *spits on ground* Theyre dogs. No really, the only language they understand is extreme violence I mean My God have you seen the way they live? Theyre animals, they dont even value their own lives, look at the way they send their people to die in suicide attacks....bastards! knock down their famies' houses.....in fact, knock down the whole street maybe that'll stay in their minds as a lesson. *shouts through loudspeaker* "We demand the surrender of all males betwen the ages of 16 and 65" they coming out? Good start shooting har! ok...who is left? Right, gather em up......theres a lot of em....thousands....Well we have to keep tabs on them we better give them a mark. A number. Lets write it on their forearms. there ...looks almost like a tattoo that'll do. Alright......lets get these men to somewhere secure so we can ...interrogate them.

Damn this war.....so hard. They could be hiding anywhere! They could be anyone. The only way to know we've killed all the militants would be to kill all the palestinians.

Way off as usual. It's more like...

Kill the Jews, and everyone who supports Israel. Those people have no right to exist. They took our land....well we didn't actually own it, but we were there for a long time so we should kill people...but they seem tough so let's only kill thier women and children and then run back to our land and hide ourselves in the middle of a bunch of our own women and children. That way if they attack us we can point to the bodies of the people that WE endangered and call them monsters....yes, and let's brainwash children and strap bombs to them so they can kill jews too. Nevermind the fact that they are only defending themselves. They are Jews! They have no right to defend the land they rightfully own! Let's blame Israel for all of our problems. Let's blame them for our own actions. Let's blame them for our poverty and dispair even though none of them is actually stoping us from creating and living in our own businesses and building up our economy.

Let's murder all of them and them act like we're victims. Then all of the idiots in the world will feel sorry for us and call the Israel the monsters. It's so crazy it just might work!

By Jove RADAR you might just have something there.....oh wait no, sorry my mistake you were talking out of your rectum again.

Dana...Pot...Kettle...Black. Yep.

ooooh. Yes. i think I'll go make a cup of tea what a brilliant idea!

Actually, both are pretty much true, for subsets of each population.

Posted by Radar

how did we *shudder* Irish own our land and the Palestinians didn't?? was it thru force of arms in the war of Independence, if so surely that would justify the Palestinian terrorist cause? or was it through ancient claim to celtic Ireland snuffed out by the Normans and the English? but just as is often claimed by zionist apologists that there never was a Palestinian state before the British Mandate, there never was an Irish nation before the British conquered us and united us in opisition to them. There was 4 main kingdoms (Ulster, Leinster, Connaught and Munster) and many many small kingdoms. Why are us Irish right and the Palestinians wrong?

BTW I was born in Dublin, but my family traces it's roots to West Cork, to Schull and Ballydehob

Now see Yelof you are falling into that classic mistake of attempting to use logic to get past RADAR's bullshit perimeter. It wont work you surely know that?

You seem to be a master of situational ethics, Radar. On the one hand you advocate killing the people who force you to pay income tax, on the other hand you think people in a foreign country (the Palestinians in Israel) should just lay down and play dead while their homes are taken away from them. This whole mess in the Middle East of Jew against Arab was made incenduary thanks to government meddling. Worst of all it was a foreign imperialist government out for its own ends - defeat of the Turkish empire, followed by concern for control of the Suez canal, followed by today's concern over having a strong hold close to oil producing regions. The people who actually lived in the region were completely disregarded except as pawns used to further Great Britain's, France's, and now the US's own ends.

You're mad about a lousey little thing like income tax, yet you think people should not utter a word of protest when their country is being taken away from them. The lack of logic in your outlook is truely incredible.

You consider a man whose policy results in the deaths of innocent children - Sharon - a hero; you say your glad to see Israel sticking up for itself for A CHANGE - what? Have you been asleep for the past 50 years? Are you THAT ignorant of history? As always, when I respond to one of your posts, I wonder why I'm even bothering with someone who is so lacking in the basic fundamentals of logic and the ability to conduct a coherent discussion of the issues.

I think the difference is that when RADAR is talking about income tax he is talking with his own kind in mind ( ie Americans) when he is talking about the Palestinians he is talking about Arabs and in RADAR's world view arab lives dont weigh as heavily as Americans or Israelis.

The Slaughter Game
 

Hey Dana C wind yer neck in for God' sake.

This crap could have been settled 10 years ago with the peace accord but no, Arafat and his Hamas gangsters kept pushing and pushing, looks like they've pushed too far now.

Even the IRA eventually sussed that they were never going to win with a continued war and had to change the mindset to trying to obtain a way to get there through dialog.

But peace is no good to the fanatics out there there is no martyrs in peace deals.
And before you hit me with it i don't condone what Sharon has done but if you keep hitting some one you're eventually gonna get slapped back

Winning independence through force of arms does NOT justify the Palestinian terrorist cause. Americans fought for their own independence and didn't have to attack another country to get it. The Palestinians are already independent. They are not under Israeli control. They are free to live on their own land without any oppression or control from Israel. The trouble is they keep going onto someone else's honestly obtained land and attacking them without cause, or justification.

The land was owned by the British Empire. While I'm against all forms of imperialism, the fact is it does exist. Before that it was owned by the Ottoman Empire (Turks). Before that it was owned by the Roman Empire. Before that by the Egyptian Empire. And before that there is no recorded history so for all of the recorded history of mankind, there has never been land in that part of the world owned by the Palestinian People. There IS recorded history on the other hand of the nation of Israel. And while they lost that land and no longer owned it, the legal owner returned that land to them and was even generous enough to give some land to create Jordan and to split what was left with some squatters from surrounding countries calling themsleves Palestinians. But rather than be happy that they finally do own some land and live in peace with thier new neighbors, they launched unprovoked attacks against them.

If I own land that I don't live on and you decide to build a house on it when I'm not looking, it doesn't mean you own it.

Nope they bombed us to the table good and proper. And damn right they should have because we had no business in their land.

That carries with it the implication that the Israelis endured the palestinian's blows for a while before "eventually" striking back. Thankfully the rest of the world ( that is everyone except Israel and America) can see who the victim really is.

Oh and BeBop wind your dick in before you put somebody's eye out.

RADAR unless I am much mistaken the Roman's brought in Nomadic arabic peoples to that area and encouraged settlement. Those people were the forerunners of the Palestinians.

Oh and BeBop wind your dick in before you put somebody's eye out. [/b][/quote]


Madam this post is no place for dick jokes :D

Be Bop there is always room for a dick joke!

Yelof raises an interesting comparison in Ireland.

lots of people out being friendly - making nice with each other today. gotta love it.

The UK had only a mandate to administer Palestine...they did not own it.

You ignore what I said about the Irish, before the English started to take us over there was little sense of Irish identity, in fact it was one Irish king Diarmiud mac Murchada who invited the Normans in in order to try to gain edge over another Irish King. By your theory of national rights, why do the Irish have rights and not the Palestinians?



IMO It was a little bit of both but mostly the fact that the moderates on both sides of the conflict were encouraged to start talking and the moderates were able to comunicate the message into language that the extemists could understand. Israel and the pals were in such a position with Rabin and Arafat but it never happened and now there are few moderates in positions of power and those in positions to encourage moderates (i.e. the US) do not.

Clinton is much respected in Ireland for his role in the NI peace process, which although going thru a rocky time at present is still alive at least.

Ye gads dont remind me. We betrayed their trust as thoroughly as we did the Iraqis

How so?

What I found particularly interesting and moving about the peaceprocess was the way many of the leading lights in the push for peace were the families of those who had died to the cause on both sides. i recall in particular the father of a lad who was killed in the Warrington bombings. I remember this very clearly because I lived not too very far way from Warrington at the time. The child had gone to see what was making the funny clicking sound he had heard coming from a literbin in the centre of town. The bomb wasnt supposed to go off it malfunctioned and blew up in the boys face. Blew his face off and he died in intensive care hours later. I heard his father speak. What a dignified man and what a brave thing to do. Turning his own sorrow into momentum for peace.
On the other side of the water Irish women wereuniting across the sectarian divides to try and speak for peace.

On TV I saw an interview with an Israeli woman whose son wa one of a group of soldiers who had been killed in action and whose bodyparts were being kept by the Palestinian militants as trophies. She was not advocating blood vengeance. She was weeping and imploring her government not to retaliate with further violence As she put it, she didnt want other mothers to feel what she was feeling regardless of whether they were Israeli or Palestinian.

There is hope. 50 years does not make the situation immutable. The zionist right will not always have a stranglehold on the Israeli body politic....Just as neoconservatism in America will not last forever

The Balfour Declaration

A good Irishman always keeps a list of British perfidies handy ;)

So, whose trust was betrayed?

Oh? Thomas Jefferson just went up to King George III and gave him a big wet kiss, and tah dah! Independence was granted to the American colonies! How could I have missed out on that fact? I guess I was asleep that day in civics class.


Great Britain signed the ‘Sykes-Picot Agreement’ promising Palestine to the Arabs in return for a revolutionary Arab liberation war against the Ottoman Empire (Turkey). This Arab uprising against the Turks was largely responsible for the Allied Powers victory in the Middle East in WWI. THAT is recorded history. If you want to call the British Empire the legal owner of the land, then they went back on a signed contract with the Arab people. The Palestinians have every right to be upset.

BINGO! In your own words, big guy!

NI peace process

I also found it bizare for instance that it was the parties that represented the loyalist terrorists that often gave the most reasonable views from unionism. Although it is not hard to sound sane when compared to Paisly

I think we just found RADAR's kinsman!

Syc, I meant that the British had betrayed the Palestinians when they had trusted us to act on our word. And we also betrayed the Iraqis when they had trusted us to act fairly

I dunno, Dana...about the only thing unfair about the 1947 plan was that Israel had less people and was to get more land--even though a lot of it was desert.

Regardless of whether the settlement was fair or not ( no doubt there are wildly differing opinions on that here) Britain wasnot true to her word and as such I consider that a betrayal of Palestinian trust. A betrayal we have compounded by standing alongside a US foreign policy which precludes fair dealing between Israel and Palestine.

Lots of words spoken about how much we condemn Israel's actions, but the truth is our Primeminister has manouvred us into such incredibly weak position with the United States that we are no longer even able to act as a voice for Palestine with the US.

Seems strange I know that we'd be in such a position in the first place but the truth of the matter is that despite our earlier betrayals the people of Palestine and the people of Britain ( in my limited experience) considered one another as friends.

The same can be said of Iraq. We had such a long history with the people ofthat region and its a history of blood and tears but there was in the last few decades a growing sense of freindship between the ordinary Iraqi and the ordinary Brit. Despite the sanctions despite all that grotesque unfairness the mood on the streets in Iraq was friendly towards ordinary brits. I recall a reporter going to a football match and talking to a couple of the people in th crowd. They seemed bemused by it all. They were warm and friendly about the British.

We stood shoulder to shoulder with the US government but like the other nations we urged the Iraqis to destroy their arsenal ( whatthere was of it) We stood over them whilst they dismantled their country's main defenses and then when they were done we marched in with the American forces. I believe we acted with dishonour and I see it as a betrayal of a very old friendship.

How was Britain untrue to its word?

You obviously didn't read my post or understand it. Independence can be won by force of arms and in my opinion it's often the only way to do so. The Palestinian people are already independent. So any attacks on Israel are merely aggression for the sake of terrorism, not for winning independence. That is why their actions are not justified.

Great Britan offered to give a significant part of the land to them (not ALL of it) and followed through on it. Britan gave them the land that created the countries of Jordan, Yemen, and one more I can't remember off the top of my head. Try again.

Yep. And since the Arab Palestinian people were camping out on someone else's land while they were away, they were not the rightful owners at any point. Game, Set, and Match. Thanks for playing.

Yelof should just throw on an orange vest and move to Belfast with the rest of his kind. If you're going to make a comparison between the Israeli/Palestinian and that of the Irish/Ulster conflict, Israel is represented by the Republic of Ireland, not by Northern Ireland.

No. Israel is being equated with neither the Republic or Northern Ireland, it's being equated with Britain.

It's being falsly identified as such. Israel would be represented in the Irish conflict as the republic of Ireland.

Nope. Because the Republic of Ireland never posted troops in Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland was taken off the rest of Ireland by the British. The dynamics are one of conquest and occupation. The Republic of Ireland is Palestine and Northern Ireland is the Gaza strip. Britain is Israel

I don't understand your line of thinking

If the Palestinian people are already independent them why are there Israeli tanks on the streets of Rafah and Ramallah.

Your theory of national rights then seems to consist of two states, one where it is valid for a people to forge a national identity and fight for independence and another state when these issues are resolved and it is no longer valid to persue claims of national idendity or create new idendities. I am unsure how your theory allows the transition from one state to another state?

I brought Ireland up because from your IM handle I could make a good guess as to your feelings on the issue and I found that interesting when I knew your beliefs on terrorism amd the rights of force of arms. How is it that you consider Irish terrorists were right in fighting the democratic governemnt of the UK in 1916 to 1921 when there had never historically been a nation of Irish who considered themselves just as Irish and that idendity had only emerged gradually under the hundreds of years of British rule? I ask this question as a devils advocate and in doing so this doesn't represent perhaps my own views on the Irish situation.

So you can stuff your "go back to Belfast" thing where the sun don't shine :)

The Republic of Ireland is represented by Israel
Northern Ireland is represented by the Palestinians
And the UK is represented by the United States.

Ireland owned that land outright and lived on it, not as squatters, but as owners. Part of that land was basically taken over by the Ulsters. The UK wouldn't allow the republic to attack the North and take control back of thier own land.

The Jews own Israel outright and lived on their own legitimately owned land. Their neighbors started attacking them immediately and the US has stopped from taking the necessary steps to secure their safety from their neighbors through bribery, threats, etc. for decades.

Because the Palestinians keep attacking thier neighbors. Mexico is an independent and sovereign nation. But you can bet your ass you'd see American tanks in the streets of Mexico City if they bombed the shit out of American women and children for 50 years.

As soon as the Palestinian people completely stop attacking, the tanks go away.

I don't consider any terrorist to be right. I was even approached many years ago to do some computer work (hacking) for the IRA, but I refused. I'm American first, and Irish second and even though I think all of Ireland should be under the same non-Ulster Irish flag, it doesn't mean I support killing innocents.

It doesn't matter what those in Northern claim...they aren't Irish. All of Ireland is the Republic of Ireland and the only thing saving the asses of the Northern Irish is the UK, which is just like America stopping Israel from exacting the sort of retribution the Palestinian people truly deserve.

Those in Belfast did not fight for and win their independence. They had someone else do it so their independence isn't valid. If Mike Tyson has a fight scheduled with Lennox Lewis and Lennox brings 10 other boxers into the ring and they beat the crap out of Tyson, did Lennox Lewis earn the win?

This is how I see it

The Republic of Ireland is represented by Jordan, Egypt, Syria etc
Northern Irish Unionists are represented by the Israelis
Northern Irish Nationalists are represented by the Palestinians
And the UK is represented by the United States.


It could be claimed that the last time Irish/Catholics/Nationalists
(lets call them the green team for short hand in future) owned Ulster they
considered themselves Ulstermen and not Irishmen because the concept of a
United Ireland was not of that time. This could be considered similar to your
claim that the Palestinians never had a national identity under the Ottoman Empire.
However let that pass, Ulster once didn't have a protestant majority
(lets call them the orange team), that majority is descended from Scottish settlers who
arrived with English encouragement from the 17C onwards.
They took the best land and they forced the green team to the poor land and into other
parts of Ireland. They remained there because when the rest of Ireland (Republic of Ireland) said fit to tell
the British to leave, the British found it impossible to leave behind those (the orange team) who had been
useful during their rule there, had a vigourous political body in the UK and that by keeping them supplied with cash
could maintain them in their little apartheid state. The green team fought the orange by political and military
means, the Republic of Ireland at times supplied the green team with arms or cash but often scared of the power of nationalism
repressed them even while giving lip service to their cause.

The Israelis arrived in Palestine for the most part in the early 20C and after WWII,
they took the best land by economic but also in large part by force of arms. When WWII ends and the mandate powers (UK France) who had held sway in the Middle East (ME) since after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire carve up the ME to suit them selves creating the Arab states. Due to pitty on the jews after the Holocaust and zionist terrorism Palestine is carved into two states, the better parts going to the Jewish minority. The US supports
the Israelis with cash and arms because of the Jewish lobby and also because of the Cold War.
The Palestinians fought the Israelisby political and military
means, the Arab States at times supplied the Palestinians with arms or cash but often scared of the power of Arab Nationalism
repressed them even while giving lip service to their cause.

I think my linking of the two conflicts fits better.

Your theory also seems to break down on the issue of legitimacy?

Is it just the Biblical justification of the chosen people that gives then the sole rights to the Land of Palestine?

Personally I don't believe in claims for territory that stretch beyond a lifetime,
that is why I feel Israel who took land from the Palestinians in the last 50 years has a moral obligation to seek for and offer
an equitable solution, where as the historical claim (the zionist position) of the Israelis to Palestinian land is paper thin, however they are there and it would be inhuman to remove them, compensation to the Palestinians
>edit to finish sentence I forgot
should come in the form of political settlements and cash.

Terrorist actions by extremists on both sides should be irrelevent to this central issue, however it is those extermists who would be seem to have been left in charge.

quotes by radar

You do advocate ethnic cleansing, and you would kill any who wished to stay and defend their rightful home or was not fast enough

I read your post alright. We fought Great Britain. I’m sure it considered itself attacked.

In 1915, acting on behalf of the British Government, Sir Henry McMahon promised Sherif Husayn (Hussein) of Mecca, Arab control over the whole of areas to be liberated from Turkey, except an area to the West of Syria and some other minor concessions. A map drawn at the time shows that Palestine was part of the area to be under under Arab control. (see attached)




An Anglo-American commission of inquiry in 1945 and 1946 examined the status of Palestine. According to the report, at the end of 1946, 1,269,000 Arabs and 608,000 Jews resided within the borders of Mandate Palestine. Jews had purchased 6 to 8 percent of the total land area of Palestine. This was about 20% of the land that could be settled and cultivated. About 46% of the land belonged to Arab owners living on the land or absentee owners, and about the same amount was government land. The partition borders were drawn to give the Jews a majority within the allotted area of the Jewish state, but the land conquered during the fighting included the populous Arab areas of the Galilee, as well as Arab towns such as Lod and Ramla. Greater Jersusalem, which was to be internationalized, included about 100,000 Jews and a larger number of Arabs.

Radar, you can't even give me an interesting game, much less win one.

We all need to remember one thing about Radar's opinion here. It is just opinion because as a Libertarian he will not use America's armed forces to defend Israels borders. Israels security is Israels problem, not ours. Radar is not arguing for the Apocalypse like a segment of the Republican Party. I'll let him respond to the empty charge of isolationism which somebody will now feel compelled to bring forward.