Pennsylvania's Shiney New Construction Suppresion Law
 

"There are five inspections involved," Herr said, "footers and foundation, electrical, plumbing, structural and final."

stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid

If you are going to build in PA, get your permit before July1. The lets stop owner-building in its tracks law will be in effect after that. Our supervisors here are doing their best with it. They won't be hanging the cost of this monstrosity around the taxpayers necks, but builders will still have to pay. There is supposed to be an agricultural exemption so I'll get my garage permit on June 30 and build my barn later. Free country my ...

Re: Pennsylvania's Shiney New Construction Suppresion Law
 

Why stupid? Those have long been the five standard inspections. Those five inspections were required even 50 years ago where ever I lived. Those five inspections are trivial and, too often, necessary. This from too many decades of personal experience. BOCA code was also important to make those inspections more effective.

Some of these types of regulations can get out of hand though.

In Florida, an architect won't design a house with closets greater than 10 square feet unless it is shaped in such a way as to allow a wheelchair to turn around.

[tirade]IT'S A FUCKING CLOSET PEOPLE, NOT A COMMON AREA![/tirade]

I don't see the problem. Sounds like PA is adopting a state-wide building code program and following up to make sure the inspectors are up to the task.

As a former architect, I applaud any effort to standardize and make more uniform the requirements to get a building built.

After I read your post but before reading the article, I assumed that this was about some sort of protectionism thing to benefit organized labor in the construction industry to the detriment of non-union workers and owners.

After I read the article, it seems fine to me. Easy permits and lax inspections are not necessarily a good thing. What builders need is a thorough understanding of the requirements and to not be held up by backlogged inspectors. Sounds like PA is addressing both of these concerns.

That sounds pretty useful for resale in Florida.

Fuck resale. If I want a closet that runs the the whole length of my wall, and my wall is 12 feet long, I don't want to have make my closet four feet deep to please ADA requirements.

It's my house, and it's not a safety issue.

[obvious]You guys are right, people should not be allowed to build in a manner which satisfies their desires. Tyranny of the experts is good. Long live the nanny state. [/sarcasm]

Everyone cares about some kind of freedom. I believe in being free to create what I want to create. If I want a stacked stone foundation, I don't want some underemployed engineer swinging by to inspect, fail, and declare uninhabitable my home. If I want to live without electricity or running water the same goes. Do you guys really believe that the state should have an interest in this? I am shocked that you find these little jobs programs for the incompetent more important than a persons right to live in the manner he wishes. I'm grinding my teeth here trying to be civil, I just can't believe what I'm reading.

Which part of the new regs says you can't live without electricity? But, if you wire a home addition, it needs to be wired properly. And, as far as I can tell, the only way your stacked stone foundation would fail is if it were structurally unsound. What am I missing here?

This is pretty much how it works in the rest of the country and its a good thing. Do you want to buy a house that was built like crap? What happens when Harry the Homeowner does his own wiring, and builds his own foundation (both without any inspection), realizes that he's F'd it up beyond repair, sells the house and it burns down and falls down? The public is best served when all construction meets the universally (in America anyway) accepted building codes.

Sounds to me like y'all have been getting away with murder up there (I noticed that there are only 2 states left that don't require the same inspection procedure). I'm not sure that I'd complain about your building codes and enforecement thereof being the 48th laxest in the country. I don't understand why you feel this is out-of-control government intervention. PA isn't jumping ahead of the curve its catching up to the curve. My $.02, anyway.

Griff has just advocated the freedom to murder - calling it acceptable because it was due to ignorance. In another discussion, many so called computer experts don' t bother to learn basic facts - and even promote scams. They assemble clone computers with power supplies defective even by 30 year old standards. But at least those scammer don't murder people.

Griff demands the right to murder 167 innocent people in Southgate Ky on 28 May 1977. Some escaped only to walk away, stop, keel over, and later due to toxic fumes. This is what Griff advocates because he feels anyone is smarter than the technically trained. Or is it classic George Jr reasoning - the politics always justifies both the ends and means? The technically trained only spent decades learning lessons proven by history. He must be stupid because Griff says freedom is more important.

Griff. You openly and callously advocate a total disregard for human life. Screw the lessons of history. You know better because of your conservative political beliefs? Tell it to another who advocates same - Ariel Sharon. How typically right wing extremist of you to advocate your righteous interests as superior to another human life.Damn straight that such wiring will kill people. You expect people who don't even know simple, basic, fundamental, functions in a PC power supply to also understand the grave (167 of them) dangers of connecting copper to aluminum? Griff's says these same people should have the right to build as they please. So who was this Mr Schilling? A cheap bastard only out for a profit? Not according to the author who cites again and again Mr Schilling's special regard for people, customers, and his employees. In fact Mr Schilling even recovered (or stole) the tip book from a crime scene so that employees could receive their last paychecks. But Mr Schilling was doing what most readers here would do if code inspections were not required. Mr Schilling did exactly what Griff advocates - because political agendas are more important than human life.

Am I saying most poeple here are that corrupt? No. Inspections, more than verifying code enforcement, are a major source of well proven and new safety code information. Those inspections are what make it possible for the technically naive to be creative - without killing humans. Griff disagrees.

If we were a more responsible nation, then only those with years of education and licenses after extensive testing would be permitted to build anything. However this is America where innovative people are necessary and essential. Mr Schilling was one of those very inciteful and innovative people - built a spectaculor club - but who simply had no appreciation for simple, well proven building requirements and the lessons of history. Just more reasons why those five inspections are essential. Some very good people are so easily corrupted by convenience as to even murder 167 people. Those inspections are what keep the so creative people honest. Since Mr Schilling did not have construction permits and building inspections, then he killed 167 people - out of mental and technical ignorance.

Griff may not like reality. But reality is that building inspections are necessary for human safety.

Inspections should never be considered sufficient for human safety. But inspections are a most powerful building tool we have to keep the creator honest and to confirm that the lessons from so many dead people are not lost in vain. I am sorry, Griff. But I have seen, too often, near misses (potential killing events) simply because of the ill educated advocate their rights over safety of others. Presented as Exhibit A - a big capital A in your face - are the 167 victims of the Beverly Hills Supper Club Fire - because someone else thought just as Griff advocates.

An apology by Griff to those victims is appropriate because he says their deaths are irrelevant.
May 28, 1977
The Fire that Still Rages
NFPA
Eventually, the temperature in the Cabaret Room would hit 2,000 degrees
Cabaret Room where 90 people died was between 120 and 260 feet at other end of building from where the fire started.
It will be with me until the day I die
What Griff advocates because freedom is more important than well proven technology and reality. Some of that reality - the morgue that a very conservative Griff fears to consider:

Really, really BAD ad placement on above-quoted page:

It's not solely about building to code, you know.

Bad shit still happens

There are also different standards applied to public space than private space. We have a lot of toxic materials just lying around our houses.

Dear Lord. Griff said nothing of the kind.

The standards Griff is bitching about are for SINGLE-FAMILY structures. Your post centers on issues with commercial building codes which has nothing to do with Griff's post or his point.

Do firemen go into single family dwellings? Yes. Does anyone else beside Griff go inside his house? Yes. May children even be inside that building? Yes.

Cited quite accurately is why even single family dwellings require building inspections. Griff has no right building a home that could endanger other human life. But because we are so tolerant, we don't require him to take a decade of education. We simply let architects and inspectors correct his mistakes and show him how to build smarter. It does not take even the slightest intelligence to see what applied to the Beverly Hills Supper Club also applies to other large structures such as homes. What also burns down single homes? Mixing aluminium and copper wire inside walls - just like in the Beverly Hills Supper Club.

Homes are also large structures. Generations of experience and too many lost lives prove the need for inspections in single family homes. Griff is only bitching due to his right wing extremist viewpoint. Are you too as right wing extremist as to feel your rights supercede other human life?

Meeting inspections is so trivial when one learns basic construction knowledge. Why bitch about inspections when only fools would build so badly as to not meet code? What do stark amateurs do in Habitat for Humanity? Routinely build homes that routinely pass inspection. Or in the case of Homestead FL, build homes that even Hurricane Andrew did not destroy. Code and inspection are there for very good reason as proven by history - despite right wing extremist rhetoric about intrusive government.

Originally posted by tw without first making any attempt to answer his/her own question by reading what others have posted in the very thread he is filling up with his/her own brand of self-rightous indignation [biting lip hard]If you are asking this question then its pretty clear you didn't read my posts in this thread in which case I have nothing further to say to you on the matter. I actually read your post in this thread which is more than I can say for you.
[/biting lip hard]

Oh, yes, so tolerant as to let a person build his own home on his own land, after he gets lots of permits and inspections. What a free and independent society we are today.

Yes. And most of that done _by professional builders_ to the code at the time.

A very true and meaningful apology from me to Beestie for not having properly read his post. I posted inaccurately and have replied to Beestie in a response and tone that was totally inappropriate. What Griff wants is so evil that I did not properly read Besstie's post. My mistake completely.

I may have saved the life of a very close friend when suspicious of some household wiring. Wires simply twisted together by wire nuts and thrown back in the wall. In the end, I cut those wires off and told him we were rewiring that part of the house. There is absolutely no reasons for this kind of workmanship that even threatened the life of a very close friend. But these are the same people who complain about building code inspections. 13 died and hundreds hurt on Chicago porches because someone couldn't even bother to obtain building permits - and therefore did not get inspections. I am appalled - very strongly emotional - when others are wasted by such criminal negligence.

As a result, I did not properly read Beesties post and apologise for a completely inappropriate response.

Accepted and appreciated.

In a prior life, I have accompanied many an inspector around jobs I designed and have always appreciated them as a check against sloppy construction.

Even if things are designed properly (within code) and the blueprints are perfectly drawn, things still get built incorrectly - contractors are human and make the occasional mistake. Inspectors are an important additional safeguard in the construction process and also protect an unsuspecting public from unscrupulous owners/builders. You'll never hear me complain about them.

:)

tw supports homelessness and I support murder.

Some inspectors have a unique interpretation of code. For example, one wanted 2x4 blocks half way up any bearing wall so that a fire would less likely to take out that critical wall. Another wanted insulation pushed into all holes around wires and pipes so that a fire inside walls would be slow to move upstairs or get into the attic. Recently one demanded that all parts of a kitchen counter be no more than 2 feet from a wall receptacle since kitchen appliances generally don't have power cords longer than 2 feet.

None of these are really wrong. In fact I appreciate why every inspector wanted their little things. Simple trick is to ask questions in advance. They are more than willing to discuss these little things - their interpretation of the code. And if honest with them, well one very informed inspector stopped walking out in the mud since we always were straight with him. I remember one job where I told him straight out that we had not finished tarring the backside and then would then cover the drain tile. More than sufficient for him to approve a foundation backfill. Those who keep cheating get problematic inspectors.

Electrical guys were warned they had to wire for AGCI in all bedrooms as of 2002. They kept saying this was nonsense. Electrical inspector arrives. Ordered circuits be changed to AGFI breakers because that is new code - and desireable by all homeowners.

Those who appreciate the danger of christmas tree fires should also want these devices. What is the best source of new and better code? Those inspectors. They are the best source of 'attitude and knowledge' - things that define and create quality.

The reason tw and I cannot even have a conversation about this is that he's a "freedom from" guy and I'm a "freedom of" guy. None the less, I think I can express part of the issue in terms unrelated to my first principles.

I am assuming that a certificate of occupancy will be issued after the last inspection. The problem with that is that for an owner-builder to be successful he needs to live on-site sometimes for years. Most folks live out of a tent, camper, or shed until the shell of the house is complete. They then complete the utilities and finish work in order of value to them, setting up temporary services where necessary. For a working class or underemployed person this creates the opportunity of home ownership without debt. We often make laws intended to simplify one persons life at the expense of complicating anothers. In this case upper middle-class folks in the Southern part of PA are getting burned by shoddy construction practices. The owner-builder will pay the price because he will no longer exist. So if you want me to get all Ted Kennedy on you, it's a class problem where the middle class is shifting the burden of their problem, which could be addressed in other ways, to the poor and others who wish to be financially secure.

This assumes there is no owner-builder exemption. If there is, I'll shut up and let a builder pick up the arguement.

We also learned from West Warrick that inspectors are not always the most professional. We are creating another opportunity for corruption.

What is not an opportunity for corruption?
Sounds like the owner/builder's issues need to be communicated and pressured to the decisionmakers here. Have they been?

Last fall, in my neighborhood, 3 adults, of the 6 living there, died in an electrical fire in a shoddily modified single family home, remodeled into student "apartments", these were individuals, fresh out of high school, with low incomes. It sparked a fiesty inspection sweep, much to the grumbling of the slum lords.

What government mandate is not an opportunity for corruption? Like tw noted, inspectors have you over a barrel when it comes to interpretation. If tw were my inspector his contempt for folks who avoid paying specialists would no doubt impact his ability to be impartial.

We never believed it was really coming. It is so much the antithesis of the way we (I) think... I cannot fathom the need to control other peoples property and by extension their lives. I usually compartmentalize this, thinking its just the evil politicians but I guess I'm figuring out that my version of freedom is contemptable in the modern US. Owner-builders are an independent lot, I know of no organization containing any significant number. We are not good democrats, preferring to simply be left to our own devices. It just always suprises me that folks are constantly agitating for new laws to use against their neighbors. I know people are annoyed that a few of us built our own places and don't live with morgages over our heads but the spite...

I'm only concerned with private single family houses. I can understand the desire to regulate rental properties and commercial spaces and will leave that argument to Radar.

OK, well, you thought your rights would be preserved if you did nothing to assert them? Think of this as your opportunity, not your woe; if you take them to court properly you can prevent them from affecting not only you but your neighbors too. And you could even do it pro-actively if you wanted.

Ya, I know thats silly thinking on my part. Some folks get a charge out of the idea of putting on a tie and spending a few weeks making other people miserable, but life is too short for participation in government, I'm thinking this is more of a passive resistance moment. I'll try to keep everybody, including myself, building and ignoring, our government probably isn't going to last that much longer and as I learned on another thread that we don't have to follow unjust laws. :) I am such a crank sometimes.

"Building Inspector" has been a synonym for corruption for as long as I've been alive, and probably twice that.

You can't assert them in court unless you have a case RIGHT NOW. That is, you have to be stopped by the new process now. You can't sue to preserve your rights for later. And if you do get around to building later, and get stopped, you'll find it's too late -- the laws have been around long enough that even if the courts find them problematic, they're reluctant to overturn them.

I dealt with or did work for many such inspectors. I have nothing but amiration for everyone. Not only did they know the trade, but I watched some even help the builder or business owner solve a problematic regulation in both a timely and efficient manner. They have also been very educational. Most were also in continuing education courses. Rather sad that the few corrupt ones would be misrepresented for all inspectors.

I have a big problem with having to worry about how any individual inspector “interprets” the code.
That’s bullshit. If the code doesn’t say there has to be an outlet within 2 feet of any point on the counter, then it’s not needed. In this example, it’s also damn near impossible.
I don't care how good his intentions are, if it isn't specified, it's optional. I've met too many inspectors that feel they are to be obeyed regardless of the law.