One difference between Europe and the US
 

...it's the personality of the people that make the biggest difference.

After the worst act of terrorism on US soil the people of the US said, the shit has hit the fan and we had better seek these people out to the very ends of the earth, and kick their ass and all their friend's asses, liberating an entire country if we have to.

After Madrid, which is basically the Spanish 911, one European reaction is to urge the correct level of restraint.

Notably missing from that list of priorities is hitting back.

"Europe does not find itself at war." Compare and contrast Bush post 911 - not forgetting the atmosphere then, very united behind the Pres - "We wage a war to save civilization itself. We did not seek it, but we will fight it and we will prevail."

Part of this difference is that Europe brings a knife to this street fight while the US brings a shotgun. If all you have is a knife, maybe you prefer talking to fighting. But part of this difference is the national character, in which the American people, once struck, will fight back with ferocity. We ain't taking shit from nobody. Nobody comes into our house and pushes us around.

You punch us in the gut, it only makes us madder. You punch Europe in the gut and half of it shrinks back and tries to figure out how to walk away.

I prefer the US response. But then again, I'm in it.

Re: One difference between Europe and the US
 

If we have to?The thing is, Europe is trying to put their history of being utter bastards behind them. The colonial powers spent several centuries bringing shotguns to knife fights, and it didn't turn out well.

Frankly, I think it's great. The US's response to the WTC attack alienated traditional allies and gave a litany of new reasons for your arabs to take up arms against the great satan. If a measured, well thought out non knee-jerk-lets-kill-the-filthy-towelheads-unless-they-sell-us-cheap-oil approach is taken, great.

Good to see democracy in action in Spain, kicking out a leader who entered into your war against the wishes of 90% of his population. Looks like Howard will go in australia too for lying to the people so he could get his tongue a bit further up bush's ass.

Nor for that matter has any true progress been made in the war on terror, sure the-terrorist-group-formerly-known-as-al-queda may be in a bit of a shambles but it's merely been diversified to hundreds of smaller, more distributed, harder to track groups. When the hell will people learn you can't stop ideas with bombs.

Little or nothing has been done to address the underlying issues behind the popular rise of islamofacism in the Middle East and elsewhere and no matter how many captured 'leaders' your government displays to the world to garner a few more votes, the attacks won't stop.

The problem with shotguns is they hit everything indiscriminately.

Current cover of The Economist as a result of those Spanish elections. Shown on each card are the leaders of Spain, US, Australia, and Britian - the hardcore promoters of this war:

Re: One difference between Europe and the US
 

Maybe Spain would prefer to make sure that they have the right targets sighted before striking back.

Maybe Cowboy Dubya could learn something from that.

If all you have is a knife, maybe you prefer talking to fighting.

"If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

It is a bit alarming to me that international relations have taken second place to the use of cruise missiles when dealing with world issues -- the US military is used a bit too frequently for my enjoyment.

But, yeah, no one comes here and pushes us around and Spain has really fucked it up for both themselves and others by backing down. As a person, you can't permit anyone to bully you. As a country, that rule is magnified a thousand fold.

In terms of the Spanish election, lets put things in perspective here.
Aznar was deeply unpopular well before this, the war on Iraq was unpopular with 90% of the population and like every other leader on the front page of the economist, guilty of lying to his country to get involved.

The spanish people voted with their conscience, they voted to remove a leader who did not represent their wishes, who was at odds with popular opinion well before the attacks.

There is more than a tad of irony, Kitsune, in first saying that guns-blazing diplomacy is a bad idea and then saying Spain did the wrong thing by rejecting it.

There is more than a tad of irony, Kitsune, in first saying that guns-blazing diplomacy is a bad idea and then saying Spain did the wrong thing by rejecting it.

Yeah, you are correct. I draw a distinct line between Iraq and Afghanistan -- I don't even consider Iraq part of actions against terrorism. I guess the Spanish vote was expected and just coincidence with regards to the bombing.

My person feeling is that it merely drove the point home a little deeper - not only did they dislike the war but it had brought a conflift that was not theirs home too. At the time of the vote it was not clear who was responsible.

The conflict is very definitely Spain's, since they had the gall to throw out the Moorist states in 1492 and the Islamists have never forgotten. OBL mentioned this in his last tape... the loss of Muslim rule in Spain is a longstanding issue with these guys.

and recently being the 3rd biggest supporter of the US campaign had nothing to do with it.

In the end it doesn't make any difference. What are ya goona do? Invade Syria? That'll sure solve it. Maybe just step in a take over Pakistan, I'm sure they'll all calm down and go back to eating dirt after that.

IOW, we can't do anything about it, except of course bitch about the US.

Yes, that's the European attitude, precisely. You've got it down pat, well done.

Well when I read such stupid and arrogant answers, I think you're right Undertoad. Thanks for changing my opinion about America and how you see us Europeans and especially show me how we, the Europeans, think about you!!!
What do you know what the people over here think about America?! Maybe most of us agree about your prez that he's not a real clever man, but you don't know the jokes we told about Clinton. Do you think, because you read some articles on the Internet that you're tha man?! It's mostly this attitude that we can't stand. You can't generalize what you think about France (and I think that even that is quite gross for people who don't really know France, its history, its people, its language, its way of life and everything) to the rest of Europe. There a big differences between Europeans. There's a thing no sovereign nation and its inhabitants can't stand, and that's when some other country decides what they have to do and to think...
You're no longer discussing decisions and opinions but judging and condemning them, without really having the appropriate background, and that's dangerous... Someday you could think that France belongs to the Axe of Evil...

edit : Oh consider the "you" as general... and in no way a personal offense against Undertoad

I base my opinions on the decisions made by the leaders of these countries and the statements they make. Such as the EU's foreign policy chief. What else am I supposed to do? If there is more information, bring it, and correct me. I love to be corrected.

I lived in Europe for a year as a kid so I do have 2% Euro DNA culture in my brain. For instance, I have an irrational love for ABBA, and drive a small shifty VW.

BTW don't remind the hard leftists here that you were anti-US before George W. hit the scene. They all want to blame him for it.

If I would base my opinion of US on the decisions made by your leaders, what am I supposed to think about you?!
BTW Europe or let's say the EU, still doesn't have a Chief of Foreign Policy. I think it's a pity because if there was one and only one voice coming from Europe, I think that would be better.
I, as a Luxembourger, don't like the French to much. They are chauvinistic, La Grande Nation! It's not that wrong, because over here they're are one of the biggest nations and their president is not a dumbass. Actually I like Chirac.
You must know we had a lot of wars over here and even the french soldiers did some good fighting (the Légion Etrangère only has french officers and NCO's, there are some french soldiers too, but nowadays it's no more a hide-away for criminals). I think nobody over here wants a new war to start. So we try not to get involved too much in any wars around the world. But still we have our missions in Afghanistan, Ex-Yougoslavia, Congo, Rwanda, Côte d'Ivoir. It's true we normally join when the fighting's over but we will stay for 10 years trying to restore normal live and democracy. The population in Europe is too divided to act like US, swift but sometimes a little naiv; we need to be shure that takes time but we won't hide. Who should we attack after 3/11? There is no real enemy. We'll try our way, slowly but shurely...

Maybe that's part of the difference; a clear enemy.

Maybe it's unfair to say a leader might be representative of the character of the people. Buuuut, although we make a big deal over the differences between the parties, you can bet that either party would have had a similar reaction post-911 and probably taken similar actions. I can't imagine President Gore going on TV in the days after and telling a stunned nation that since we can't prosecute the dead bombers our only option is to politely ask the UN whether to enforce the Afghani authorities to respect our extradition and information requests of the gentlemen they are hosting and have not yet arrested. The people would be furious.

Ewww! Now I got that shit in my head, thanks a lot!

take a chance, take a chance, take a chance....

One difference between Europe and the US
 

Reading the Cellar these last few months has given me an enormous insight into the American view of world events and I tend to agree on many things.But I think what pisses off many europeans is the go getter gung ho attitude that many Americans have, this is not necessarily a bad thing but europeans do tend to be a bit more reserved.
However 9/11took the whole world to a new level of mindset and the sooner Europe gets its act together the better it will be for all concerned.
This liberal/PC attitude that the west is to blame for all the arab nations ills and misfortune is bullshit.
What we have got to realise is that this is no small band of terrorists fighting for freedom in their own land/lands this is one civilization trying to invade and impose their will/ religion on us as they class the whole west as the Great Satan.
Its fanatics we are dealing with who want to live in a true Islamic world.
We have the ridiculous sutuation in England where Muslum clerics banned from their mosque are preaching race hate on the streets and receiving state welfare benefits from the country they supposedly hate as corrupt and unclean.Many Muslums/arabs are peace loving people but the fanatics seem to be growing at a frightening rate.Strange though don't see many of their leaders in a hurry to go to paradise,but joking aside things are going to get worse and all the hand wringing and gnashing off teeth and appeasement will only make things worse.

That's the problem, too many people eating dirt. Anybody that wants to control a population of poor people has to have an enemy to blame things on. The communists, religious extremists and despots everywhere, have preached the doctrine of the evil Americans are at fault. A common enemy, a common goal to sacrifice for, to keep the people from bitching that they were eating dirt and from noticing how well these leaders were living.

See, we are all Europeans now.

Re: One difference between Europe and the US
 

I saw an episode of a TV show where a woman is raped and her boyfriend goes to pick her up. As they are driving home the woman sees a man walking on the street and starts screaming 'It's him". The boyfriend jumps out of the car, follows the guy, and beats him.

He gets back in the car, and a block later his girlfriend sees another man and starts screaming "It's him".

I'm all for a measured, planned, and effective response against the correct target.

Unfortunately, terrorists, revolutionaries, insurgents, etc, do not play fair. They disappear into civilian populations. While some of these civilians might be sympathizers, the majority have no idea who is living down the block.

Finding government involvement is even more difficult. If the Nicaraguan government in the 1980's was looking for proof that the US goverment was arming the Contra's, they would have had a great deal of difficulty finding proof. In fact, the US goverment had a policy forbidding such involvement. The arms to the Contras was the result of an illegal plot within the US government which bypassed the legislative branch.

So assuming that the Nicaraguans had massively superior firepower, would the US have been a legitimate target for them considering the aid to the Contras was illegal and unsanctioned by the majority of the US goverment?

These questions require thought, and a measured and deliberate response takes planning. The cluster fuck we are engaged in with Iraq is an example of what happens when you do not plan.

As for the shotgun/knife metaphor, there are times when a shotgun is not the right weapon, such as a crowded subway. Given the state of the Middle East, a knife is a much better weapon. For every bystander killed, 10 future terrorists are created. Trying to use overwhelming force in these situations is very dangerous and breeds resentment which undercuts efforts to win 'hearts and minds'.

And unless you intend to turn the entire Middle East into a giant slab of radioactive glass, you will need to win those hearts and minds.

It's very possible that Europe is learning from our mistakes. I don't know what Spain has for counter-terrorism, but considering the UK's SAS, writing off the Europeans as a bunch of wimps would be stupid.

Even the Israeli's did not react to Munich with a bombing campaign. Instead they spent years hunting down and killing those involved, which was probably more terrifying for their targets than any attack by tank or plane.

Both richlevy and xoxoxoBruce are correct.
I simply don't understand the attitude of many here of 'fuck the goddamn sandniggers, lets just kill all the fuckers. It's at best emotive and irrational. It's not going to solve it.

My personal solution is something closer to what happened in Europe Post-WW2. Massive external capital injection. Give them clean water, jobs, better conditional, poltiical power(which has been proven to be closely linked to happiness). Somehow I feel calls to wage jihad may just fall on deaf ears if the great stan just gave you a good job so you can buy your family stuff, clean water, political stability...I mean maybe they aren't so bad after all.....hmmm

Verses kicking in the door of your hovel and capping a couple of family members while looking for another terrorist. Who just happens to be an ex-student who's best mate was accidently killed by forces occupying your country.

There is a chance to do this in Iraq, but Bush hasn't the political will or foresight to pull it off.

That would probably work. We're doing that in China and India but we're running out of jobs to give them and once we give all the jobs away how will we finance the plan?

The thing is, _I_ can't imagine President Gore going on TV a few months later and essentially saying "Osama who? We'd rather go after Saddam while we're in the neighborhood."

Of course, President Gore would have his hands full knocking Veep Lieberman away from the nuclear football each morning. "No, you CAN'T nuke the Arabs OR Rockstar Games OR Infinity Broadcasting OR the cast of 'Friends'. How many times do I have to tell you that?"

Re: One difference between Europe and the US
 

I fixed your quote for you.

Yes, I am afraid of religious fanatics who hate American culture, hate American freedoms, and would love nothing more than to see their religious worldview and beliefs become entrenched into American law and society. But you know what? I'm not as afraid of the "Islamofascists" half a world away as I am of the "Christian Reconstructionists" who are not only ALREADY HERE, but who have already wormed their way into positions in local, state and federal governments alike. Second verse, same as the first, just with a different Invisible Man In The Sky being promoted.

Give 'em defence contracts, they always seem to blow out enough to feed half of africa.

The issue is complicated, the biggest issue it political control in the Middle east, places like Lebenon have serious economiic issues caused by government mismanagement. There are small, innovative companies through the ME who just need government support to grow. Similar programs have proven effective in africa. Another thing which is to a tiny degree being tackled is Education, in many parts of the ME as well as swaths of Indonesia free islamic schools are the only education around, that needs to change.

Liberman should stop hiding in the closet and come out as a republician already.

Almost 50% of the money we spend on defence IS going out of the country. The large American defence contractors are buying parts from offshore suppliers at an alarming rate.

Re: Re: One difference between Europe and the US
 

Originally posted by vsp



I fixed your quote for you.

Yes, I am afraid of religious fanatics who hate American culture, hate American freedoms, and would love nothing more than to see their religious worldview and beliefs become entrenched into American law and society. But you know what? I'm not as afraid of the "Islamofascists" half a world away as I am of the "Christian Reconstructionists" who are not only ALREADY HERE, but who have already wormed their way into positions in local, state and federal governments alike. Second verse, same as the first, just with a different Invisible Man In The Sky being promoted.


VSP that was naughty changing my post..
You go on about christian fanatics taking over, at least they can be removed.Don't see many Baptists, Methodists etc leaving bombs on trains/buses or sending women and children as human bombs..check it out when was the last time a watchtower blew up in your mailbox..the west aren't the ones screaming Jihad..

Re: Re: Re: One difference between Europe and the US
 

Nope. They're just the ones shooting abortion doctors. Or the ones calling for "a war on Islam" in general without differentiating between moderates and extremists, potential friends or foes.

They're actually more dangerous when their actions aren't violent, because more subtle actions often escape public notice. Rather than converting the country at gunpoint, they'd rather do it in the school board, in the school-textbook factory, in front of the abortion clinics, in courthouse lobbies in front of Ten Commandments plaques, or in the _legislatures_...

When there's a bill facing Congress now that would remove the Supreme Court's ability to rule on the Constitutionality of ANY religion-based issues (and would call for the impeachment of judges who dared to rule on them anyway), when it's a buddy of Pat Robertson's who crafted the bill, and when a party that's cozy with the religious right has control of the Presidency and both houses, I'D say that there's plenty of reason to worry. Wouldn't you?

Fundamentalism of _any_ denomination is a danger to the world at large, no matter what religion or creed it's devoted to. "Islamofascists" scare me a lot less than "Christofascists," because there are a hell of a lot more of the latter around trying to affect how I live _my_ life.

Re: Re: Re: One difference between Europe and the US
 

I'm sure that the islamic fanatics would prefer to use A-10 Warthogs, aircraft carriers, tanks, bombs and bombs and bombs and armies, but ya gotta make do with what you have.

"Part of this difference is that Europe brings a knife to this street fight while the US brings a shotgun. If all you have is a knife, maybe you prefer talking to fighting. But part of this difference is the national character, in which the American people, once struck, will fight back with ferocity. We ain't taking shit from nobody. Nobody comes into our house and pushes us around.

You punch us in the gut, it only makes us madder. You punch Europe in the gut and half of it shrinks back and tries to figure out how to walk away."


I see. I must have been reading some pretty messed up history books all these years. This reluctance to wage war and try to annihilate anyone who takes a shot at us is something of a new phenomenon in Europe. After centuries of knocking down each other's cities and sieging each others towns ( not to mention all the sport we had with each other's streams of ragged trousered refugees) and then the good old days when we had no compunction in stealing someone elses country and adding it to our own little collections.......You'll forgive us please if we seek not to involve ourselves in America's vengeance campaign against people who are racking up reasons to hate the West pretty fuckin fast right now.


What's funny is that in the mid 20th century American journalists used to look on in disbelief and horror at some of the stunts we British pulled in Iraq. .....Of course we didnt have international permission to disarm them before invading and destroying all semblance of civil order we would probably have considered that a little unsporting.

Europe's still fighting...Serbia is still a freaking mess, not to mention Chechnya.

Thats a very good point Sycamore, Europe is still not entirely at peace. It shows my own prejudices somewhat that I do not automatically look at the wider European picture, tending as many do to focus on the big three.

The biggest threat to the U.S. today, in my opinion, is John Ashcroft.. Even if they capture or kill OBL, there will be more out there trying to be like him (and now that they have seen it CAN be done, they'll be more inclined to try).

Ashcroft, on the other hand, is willing to cripple the fundamental protections so that he can fight his jihad. Even if he's got the purest of motives and you agree with him.. the current crew will not always be in power. Eventually, someone else will be given those abilties Ashcroft was given - and the outcome might not be the one we want.

Sorry, came across it, couldn't help it.
http://www.diabloii.nu/trams/Europa1.jpg

FOUL! Europe wearing jeans and USA wearing slacks. I don't think so.

Can't honestly say I really noticed what Europe was wearing.

That's why the US is so successful. Careful attention to details.:haha:

We wear jeans

That's because we sold them to you. By the way, that picture was photoshopped.

Fair point....though these days I think they mainly come from Turkey :P

Turkey? Hell, ours come from China.:D

"Made in Macau"

Leave ol' Bessie out of this! Her teats are sore as it is!

Photoshopped?

There is an element of truth in it, I've seen 2 fat people in Switzerland. England doesn't count though, that's full of fatasses.

They hunger to be Americans.

(My jeans have a little "Made in Vietnam" label sewn into them. This is a long way away from clothes that I bought throughout most of my life with the "I.L.G.W.U." label. Yes, the one you were supposed to look for.)

"I.L.G.W.U"
What does that stand for?



No fair! We are not......although....it does depend on *where* in England you are thinking of....

Actually, on a semi serious note it is very worrying how many British kids are now morbidly obese. We havent reached the levels I hear of for America but we arent so far behind.. I have seen the change occur around me at quite an accelerated rate. I recall when I was at school some 17 years ago there were maybe two or three ( at most) seriously overweight children in the average school of several hundred pupils. Now there are usually at least that and often more in each class within that school. Thats a hell of an increase.

.....I am one of those fortunate people who can eat pretty much anything and doesnt put weight on....course my arteries are probably so furry I will drop dead at 40 :D .....Funny thing though. I have heard people comment upon the dietary habits of people with serious weight problems and often the people commenting lead such unhealthy lives and have such unhealthy eating habits that it often strikes me as unfair and hypocritical. *chuckles* I had a friend who once waxxed lyrical for half an hour ( in response to a news report on TV about the addictive nature of fatty foods ) as to why obesity was just a matter of lack of willpower on the part of the "fatty" yet that same friend would happily munch his way through a smallish mountain of junkfood, protected by his genetic makeup and speedy metabolism from ever having to diet or even be particularly conscious of what he ate.

I know I dont have a leg to stand on that issue because I comfort eat...I eat when bored...I over eat, I eat too many fatty foods I take too much sugar in my drinks and have too many of them....The exercise I get is mainly accidental...the natural byproduct of having a large dog to walk.... There but for the grace of God go I.....Really with so many of our citizens in the UK and the USA dying young unnecessarily a new attitude needs to be fostered which moves away from this "serves ya right" attitude.

International Ladies Garment Worker's Union.

Of course, not all of the Garment Workers were Ladies.

And they also made clothes for men.

But they had a catchy song.

I.L.G.W.U. History.

They merged with a second union in 1995 to form the Union of Needletrades, Industrial, and Textile Employees.

That was fascinating! Thanks Wolf. I hadnt realised how much of a role women played in the labour struggles of the beginning of the 20th century in America. It reminded me a little of the matchgirls atthe end of the 19th cdentury. Its one of the few female led strikes I can recall from my own country's history

Matchgirls