Is there free will in heaven?
 

It seems to me that for heaven to be perfectly peaceful, some restrictions on free will would be necessary. But that seems to diminish the attractiveness of heaven. And if it is possible to have free will and peace in heaven, then why would it not work on Earth?

there is no heaven....not like that, anyway.

then why would it not work on Earth?

Because the "Earth" you speak of is actually hell.

Re: Is there free will in heaven?
 

So maybe we all have our own personal heavens and while what I do in my personal heaven may appear (to me) to impinge on your freedoms, it doesn't actually impact on your heaven at all? Not that I think there is a heaven (or heavens):3eye:

Our actions are the constructs of belief/desire sets. We desire something, we believe that something will fulfill that desire, we believe that our actions will obtain that something, we act.

We desire personal security. We believe that money will provide that. We believe that working hard will earn us money. We work hard.

The problem is that we suffer from broken belief/desire sets. We desire things that are harmful to ourselves or others, and we have ill-conceived beliefs about how to gain those things.

We desire to be valued by another. We believe that a relationship provides that. We believe that being passive and codependent is the best way to maintain that relationship. We act in ways that are codependent.

We desire to not be threatened by anyone. We believe that the only way to achieve this is through holding more power than anyone else. We believe that by manipulation and deception we can gain more power than anyone else. We manipulate and deceive.

We act with free will, but we do so along lines of faulty desires and faulty beliefs. Perhaps in heaven, community exists in such a way that we still operate with free will, but we do so without desiring harmful things, and without holding corrupted beliefs about how to achieve them.

We desire personal security. We believe that mutual respect is the best way to achieve this. We believe that humility and compassion are the best ways to achieve mutual respect. We act with humility and compassion.

Sounds good to me. I’m in. Who’s with me?

-sm

Then why wouldn't God fix our belief/desire sets here, and decrease the suffering?

in my humble opinion, the idea of heaven that most of us are familiar with (regardless of one's belief/disbelief) came from a religious society that had little at all to do with free will. if you believed/did everything the church said that you should you would go to heaven, otherwise hell awaits. thankfully most modern religion has moved from this ideology, but i think it's still valid in terms of examing the progression of the heaven concept. just a side thought on my part.

perhaps there is no need for a heaven in the sense that i am familiar with, i.e. some kind of utopian afterlife. aristotle believed that a just man delights in acting justly (loosely paraphrased, i think i got the idea across). maybe heaven is exercising free will and choosing good for the sake of good, as opposed to choosing good for some reward (in this life or the afterlife) or being otherwised coerced. just my 2 pesos...

Who says he doesn't :confused:

If you're talking about a mass overhaul of the human race, maybe God isn't into tinkering with people's inner workings without permission. If you're talking about an individual basis, that seems to be the most basic tenet of every world religion - that you become transformed by the working of God and begin to act in accordance with proper b/d sets (in so many words).

-sm

As God gave us free will, maybe God is telling each and every one of us how to do it, it is just up to us to implement the ideas. The question is, are we listening to what God has to say?

So to get into heaven, you would need to give permission for Him to alter your desires? And if you choose to keep your free will, you would be denied heaven?

And if we are listening, how do we know it's God talking?

Happy Monkey, you said that a lack of free will would diminish the "attractiveness" of Heaven. So what? If you're going to do the whole heaven/hell concept, it's not like you're going to the mall and you get to decide which restaurant to get dinner from at the food court. Isn't the lack of eternal damnation attractive enough? Presumably, for those who are in heaven, their wills and the will of God would coincide--can you imagine being in heaven and wanting to do something God didn't want you to do? Would that lead to separation between you & God, aka Hell?

And in a semi-Socratic vein...

If God, in his infinite capacity, makes Heaven so damn spiffy that there is a complete and overwhelming desire to stay there, wouldn't that, in a sense, abrogate the very free will that is in question?

Well, obviously the Christian heaven is better than the Christian hell. But I find that it seems to be a choice between creepy and painful, rather than bliss and torment.

Heaven is wonderful....just don't step on the ducks.:)

nice

Quote:

spiffy that there is a complete and overwhelming desire to stay there, wouldn't that, in a sense, abrogate the very free will that is in question?

Only if you think free-will is purely deterministic. In other words, if you think a free-will decision is solely based on the circumstances that the person finds himself in. Given X set of circumstances [capacity for reason, personal history, present surroundings, everything], every person will make the same decision.

I don't limit free-will that way. A person is still a free agent, able to make decisions that are not solely determined by their circumstances. So, just because you make a place that is so wonderful that every person would likely want to stay forever, you haven't vacated their capacity to actually make that decision.

Put bread in front of an ordinary starving man, and he will eat it. But he still decides to do so. He is still the agent of his own free-will.

-sm

Are you Christian? Or not?

If you are, why does the idea of eternity in perfect communion with a perfect God sound creepy?

If you aren't, why do you care?

(I'm assuming, of course, that we're discussing Heaven in terms of philosophical/theological aspects... not in the sense of "In Heaven you get to sleep till noon, hang out at a Maxim photo shoot in the afternoon, and party with the models at night." But maybe I'm wrong!)

I'm not. But a lot of people are, which is why I find it interesting.

I have a few problems with the concept of heaven and hell. First is the implied lack of free will. Second is the feeling of selfishness I get. A person in heaven is very likely to have known and loved at least one person who ended up in hell. How could the person in heaven be happy while that is true? Do you just stop caring? Do you become self-righteous, and agree that they deserve it? It is things like that that creep me out.

I'm gonna guess that, no, there will be no free will in Christian Heaven, because there isn't any on Earth according to their tenets, so why would it be any different up there?

Yeah, yeah...I know...we have the free will to choose Jesus or reject him, but I have a hard time viewing two choices to constitute free will.

There better be plenty of Guinness on tap up there...that's all I have to say.

Isn't there a lot of "praising the Lord" and Halleluahing and such going on up in the fluffy cloud, harps music, cherubs flyin around your head Heaven? Do you think that everyone up in heaven wants to do that all day? doesn;t sound like free will to me.

The idea of "christian Heaven" as portrayed on tv, Sunday School, and in some really freaky little hands out flyers I've seen, with the pearly gates, and the meeting god and the angels is preposterous. I am genuinely surprised when I run into a grown adult who appears to believe that if you live a good life, you will be judged by "the maker" and rewarded with eternal bliss. how stupid do you have to be? how eager to believe?

First of all, bliss is a comparative state. If you were perpetually blissed, you wouldn;t be able to tell, would you? nothing bad to compare it to. Second, how egocentric of us to think that 1 God can know all individuals well enough to sentence them to eternal bliss or damnation. If there is a single sentient god ( a possibility that I find unlikey, but cannot rule out) what makes us think that he gives a rats ass about a aingle person? Do they invision a staff of angles that work for him/her? pah! really. This longing for immortality in heaven is naught but a philosophical manifestation of a genetically installed drive. We are wired to perpetuate ourselves thru reproduction. The individuals that weren't have died out, are dying out, will die out. So our overacheiving brains decide that if our body is to reproduce and live on in our children, then our minds, which we somehow concieive of as being seperate from our bodies, must also live on, but in a really trippy far out kind of way. in heaven:).....or in helll :( horseshit! Immortality is in your pants!



Personally, I find soul recycling much easier to swallow.

edited to ad: immortality is in your pants.

Maybe. The bible says that there are angels in heaven, and you get to hang out with god and jesus, but it doesn't get real specific, AFAIK. Those who would research, please post refs.

Why is it so hard to believe that if you are a good person, you get a reward at the end? Every major religion/belief system has a "goodie" if you follow the tenets. Nirvana, reincarnation to the next highest form, heaven, Valhalla, hanging out with Allah, whatever. That in mind, how can you say that the 98% of people on this earth that believe something good comes to those who follow the beliefs of their system are stupid? That's an awfully big brush to paint with, Jimbo.



Of course there is. You compare it to what it was like before you reached this (evolved or reward) state. It is better. If you lived through suffering and pain, and now are pain free, that's better. It can be considered blissful.

==back to Christian tenets now==

The bible tells us that God knows us from the moment we are conceived, that he DOES know each and every one of us, that he has a plan for each and every one of us, and that he wants to be a part of each and every one of our lives. Can you conceive of infinite numbers? Think of counting to infinity. God is infinite just in that way. He has always been and always will be. Why are you putting human limitations on God? He is above that. That is why he is God.

Perhaps. We'll find out at the end! I say enjoy the ride while you're here, be excellent to each other, and party on dudes!!

Or...was that George Carlin and Abraham Lincoln?

This is indigo.
This is indio.

Note to self: be very careful at 12:45am when handtyping tags.

and the bible was written by someone who had been there, and would know? did "god" write it? did "jesus" write it? or was it some asshole preists a long time ago who wrote it in a different language .........which has been translated who knows how accurately, abridged, revised, and embelished for centuries. .....just so they could get some control of the populous.
It's not hard to believe.I've seen it before.

WORD

In heaven there is no beer.
That's why we drink it here.
And when we're gone from here
Our friends will be drinking all the beer.

- traditional

Thank you for completely ruining heaven for me, Toad.

At least now you don't have to try and get there. :)

YOU, really don't have to worry about what is or isn't in Heaven.;)

Now then, you have the facts. You know what the human race enjoys and what it doesn't enjoy. It has invented a heaven out of its own head, all by itself: guess what it is like! In fifteen hundred eternities you couldn't do it. The ablest mind known to you or me in fifty million aeons couldn't do it. Very well, I will tell you about it.

1. First of all, I recall to your attention the extraordinary fact with which I began. To wit, that the human being, like the immortals, naturally places sexual intercourse far and away above all other joys -- yet he has left it out of his heaven! The very thought of it excites him; opportunity sets him wild; in this state he will risk life, reputation, everything -- even his queer heaven itself -- to make good that opportunity and ride it to the overwhelming climax. From youth to middle age all men and all women prize copulation above all other pleasures combined, yet it is actually as I have said: it is not in their heaven; prayer takes its place.

They prize it thus highly; yet, like all their so-called "boons," it is a poor thing. At its very best and longest the act is brief beyond imagination -- the imagination of an immortal, I mean. In the matter of repetition the man is limited -- oh, quite beyond immortal conception. We who continue the act and its supremest ecstasies unbroken and without withdrawal for centuries, will never be able to understand or adequately pity the awful poverty of these people in that rich gift which, possessed as we possess it, makes all other possessions trivial and not worth the trouble of invoicing.

2. In man's heaven everybody sings! The man who did not sing on earth sings there; the man who could not sing on earth is able to do it there. The universal singing is not casual, not occasional, not relieved by intervals of quiet; it goes on, all day long, and every day, during a stretch of twelve hours. And everybody stays; whereas in the earth the place would be empty in two hours. The singing is of hymns alone. Nay, it is of one hymn alone. The words are always the same, in number they are only about a dozen, there is no rhyme, there is no poetry: "Hosannah, hosannah, hosannah, Lord God of Sabaoth, 'rah! 'rah! 'rah! siss! -- boom! ... a-a-ah!"

3. Meantime, every person is playing on a harp -- those millions and millions! -- whereas not more than twenty in the thousand of them could play an instrument in the earth, or ever wanted to.

Consider the deafening hurricane of sound -- millions and millions of voices screaming at once and millions and millions of harps gritting their teeth at the same time! I ask you: is it hideous, is it odious, is it horrible?

Consider further: it is a praise service; a service of compliment, of flattery, of adulation! Do you ask who it is that is willing to endure this strange compliment, this insane compliment; and who not only endures it, but likes it, enjoys it, requires if, commands it? Hold your breath!

It is God! This race's god, I mean. He sits on his throne, attended by his four and twenty elders and some other dignitaries pertaining to his court, and looks out over his miles and miles of tempestuous worshipers, and smiles, and purrs, and nods his satisfaction northward, eastward, southward; as quaint and nave a spectacle as has yet been imagined in this universe, I take it.

It is easy to see that the inventor of the heavens did not originate the idea, but copied it from the show-ceremonies of some sorry little sovereign State up in the back settlements of the Orient somewhere.

All sane white people hate noise; yet they have tranquilly accepted this kind of heaven -- without thinking, without reflection, without examination -- and they actually want to go to it! Profoundly devout old gray-headed men put in a large part of their time dreaming of the happy day when they will lay down the cares of this life and enter into the joys of that place. Yet you can see how unreal it is to them, and how little it takes a grip upon them as being fact, for they make no practical preparation for the great change: you never see one of them with a harp, you never hear one of them sing.

As you have seen, that singular show is a service of praise: praise by hymn, praise by prostration. It takes the place of "church." Now then, in the earth these people cannot stand much church -- an hour and a quarter is the limit, and they draw the line at once a week. That is to say, Sunday. One day in seven; and even then they do not look forward to it with longing. And so -- consider what their heaven provides for them: "church" that lasts forever, and a Sabbath that has no end! They quickly weary of this brief hebdomadal Sabbath here, yet they long for that eternal one; they dream of it, they talk about it, they think they think they are going to enjoy it -- with all their simple hearts they think they think they are going to be happy in it!

It is because they do not think at all; they only think they think. Whereas they can't think; not two human beings in ten thousand have anything to think with. And as to imagination -- oh, well, look at their heaven! They accept it, they approve it, they admire it. That gives you their intellectual measure.

4. The inventor of their heaven empties into it all the nations of the earth, in one common jumble. All are on an equality absolute, no one of them ranking another; they have to be "brothers"; they have to mix together, pray together, harp together, Hosannah together -- whites, niggers, Jews, everybody -- there's no distinction. Here in the earth all nations hate each other, and every one of them hates the Jew. Yet every pious person adores that heaven and wants to get into it. He really does. And when he is in a holy rapture he thinks he thinks that if he were only there he would take all the populace to his heart, and hug, and hug, and hug!

He is a marvel -- man is! I would I knew who invented him.

5. Every man in the earth possesses some share of intellect, large or small; and be it large or be it small he takes pride in it. Also his heart swells at mention of the names of the majestic intellectual chiefs of his race, and he loves the tale of their splendid achievements. For he is of their blood, and in honoring themselves they have honored him. Lo, what the mind of man can do! he cries, and calls the roll of the illustrious of all ages; and points to the imperishable literatures they have given to the world, and the mechanical wonders they have invented, and the glories wherewith they have clothed science and the arts; and to them he uncovers as to kings, and gives to them the profoundest homage, and the sincerest, his exultant heart can furnish -- thus exalting intellect above all things else in the world, and enthroning it there under the arching skies in a supremacy unapproachable. And then he contrived a heaven that hasn't a rag of intellectuality in it anywhere!

Is it odd, is it curious, is it puzzling? It is exactly as I have said, incredible as it may sound. This sincere adorer of intellect and prodigal rewarder of its mighty services here in the earth has invented a religion and a heaven which pay no compliments to intellect, offer it no distinctions, fling it no largess: in fact, never even mention it.

By this time you will have noticed that the human being's heaven has been thought out and constructed upon an absolute definite plan; and that this plan is, that it shall contain, in labored detail, each and every imaginable thing that is repulsive to a man, and not a single thing he likes!

- Mark Twain, Letters From Earth

Another example of why Twain (Clements) was praised for his humor.:)

Cruel Site of the Day posted today a 'remix' version of that Chick tract

here

What I love about chick is the way 'god' is a faceless lump and the devil is exquisitely rendered. I think that says more about the tracts than anything else really.

but here is the kicker - the believer risks nothing if he is wrong. if you believe there is an afterlife and then find nothing - what have you lost?

if you are an unbeliever - eternity is at risk. believing that there is no heaven or hell and then be proven wrong??? ouch.

i guess that is why it is called faith. you've got to believe it to see it.

well, there's a surprise. lookout is a bush supporter AND a good christian. whooda thunk it?

Pascal's wager is worthless. There are a million religions. If you believe one of them, then you rule out most of the rest. A nonbeliever is risking the wrath of only one more god than the believer.

but, monkey, the christian god is the jealous one. as long as you believe jesus is your savior, you're ok. if you've never heard of him, ....well, you're fucked.

sorry.

Most of the Greek/Roman ones were pretty damn jealous. Of each other, no less.

wow - you are pretty fucking deep there lumberjim - you don't even need to look into someone's beliefs before labeling them shit. unless i am mistaken i don't remember going after you on a personal level. and you claim to hate bush - you've got a pretty good mastery of the preemptive strike.

you should see my backhand.

hey, sorry, bub. i didnt mean to attack you personally. I was referring to my mistrust of "good Christians", and their leader, George Bush. When the President starts talking about good and evil on a daily basis, appearing to speak before congregations, and espousing his religious beliefs, I get a really filthy feeling. Did not George Washington himself specifically say that this country was not founded on ANY religion? When the fuck did Christianity become the National Religion? I didn't vote for it. I don;t even remember there being a vote! I'm often flabbergasted by the whole arrangement.

Nothing personal. I'm not promising you that I won;t go there, but I wasn;t this time. Not really.

i don't recall saying i hate bush. I said he scares me. I can't really think of anyone I hate. Not really. People piss me off sometimes, but hate is wasteful.

[flea] I'm a pacifist, so I can fuck your shit up[/flea]

about heaven:

i was thinking about this with jinx tonight, and looked at it mathematically...a little

There is the possibility that there is an afterlife, and there is the possibility that there is not. 50/50 odds. Of the 50% chance that there IS an afterlife, there are myriad and infinite possibilities of what that could be like. One possibility is the Christian heaven. one. one in infinity chances. 1 out of 2 sounds like better odds to me. I'd prefer that there be something afterwards, but I can;t count on it. I have to do what I can in this life.

What if the "light" that people refer to seeing after being revived from clinical death is the light at the end of the birth canal?

What if the "light" that people refer to seeing after being revived from clinical death is the light at the end of the birth canal?

Whoa.

Much as I've often been presented throughout my life with the general idea of reincarnation, that particular image has never occurred to me. I must admit it's a little disconcerting.

If that were the case, would that mean people who don't go towards the light are stillborn?

let's take it a bit farther:

perhaps the above ods are accurate. and there is a 50/50 chance that there is something after. one half chance that you DO go toward the light, which is the light at the end of the birth canal, and your next life, and one that you do NOT go toward the light, and there is no afterlife. You;re just gone.

miss your chance, and game over. this is just as valid a possibility as any other religion. And if this is the actual truth, and no one knows it, and no one teaches us, then the ods remain 50/50. if many of us knew about this, accepted and believed it, we'd be wanting to share this knowledge with those around us, right? Do we have a moral responsibility to spread the word? Are we partly responsible for these...lost souls, these "non light goers"...that we could have warned but did not? :eek:


I'll need to flesh this out a bit more, maybe write a few childrens stories about it and come up with a prophet to spread the word,( you interested, radar?) but in ...oh, I don't know...2000 years?....this could be the driving religion behind the most powerful planet in the solar system or something.

Oh, I almost forgot...we'll need a name for it.....anyone?

.....and they say Christians are nutz.

To put the thread back on track...how much more free-will can you get? God reveals the fact that there is a hell and a heaven, and he gives us an out. We can make of it what we will. While some people get numerous chances to accept the truth of the bible, some only get one. In places where it's never been heard of, there are still civilizations that recognize the concept of one creator that they have to follow (somewhere in the bible it says that, I will look it up tomorrow if you remind me).

God says: here's the information you need to stay in good with me. Make of it what you will. See you at the second coming, bye.

The people who are so upset about the free-will nonsense won't believe the truth about God unless they are offered absolute, unarguable, verifiable scientific data that he exists. (Thus removing their choice not to believe, ironically).

the brainwashing of religion is so fundemantal and basic that even otherwise intelligent people succumb to it. well, yeah. that's what I'm saying.

does he have a deep voice? I've always wondered.
"the truth about god" - YOUR truth. keep it to yourself, thanks.

as for data, there is none. no way to know, so how can you say you're anymore right than i am? I'm not saying you're definatley wrong, I'm saying that you are no more right than I am. not even a little bit.

To the Christians: harshly questionning your beliefs is not an attack on you personally.

If you would like to see a personal attack, so you can tell the difference, that can be arranged.

Is there free will in heaven? Absolutely.

For me, Heaven represents the absence of temptation. Heaven is the one place the devil can't work his mojo and since the devil is the source (although not the responsible party) of whatever separation there might be between humans and God, the absence of temptation, is, therefore, heaven (unity with God).

At least that's the presumption I operate under however ignorant it must appear to people who believe otherwise.

So if the devil were eliminated, Earth would become paradise, regardless of free will?

I have no idea what would happen to Earth if Satan suddenly ceased to exist. My answer above (no pun intended - nyuk, nyuk) was for Heaven.

I'd have to think about Earth. But, my prelim guess is that Earth would be paradise-like (we're still human and so I can't rule out suffering which may preclude calling Earth paradise) if Satan (or the personificaiton of evil) stopped exerting influence on people's actions and intentions. At a minimum, I think things would be a little better than they are if and when things we all pretty much agree are evil suddenly became a thing of the past.

I guess the degree to which one might be inclined to refer to a world without temptation as paradise would have to be a function of where that person is now. A drug lord who's living large on the backs of his addicts might call the "new world" hell whereas a North Korean starving in solitary for a political "crime" might be inclined to call the new world paradise.

I think heaven's here on earth (as is hell). It is up to each of us through our use of free will to act so that there will be a little bit of heaven in our lives and those of the people around us. We can also choose to act to create hell. I don't believe in Satan. There's only foolish (or down-right sociopathic) human beings. In my life I have met many "angels" - ordinary human beings who act with kindness and compassion.

LJ, this is what I've ranted about in other threads. Why is it that the only group of people who are supposed to "keep it to themselves" are Christians? Anti-christians are not about free thought, no matter what they otherwise preach. They consistently demonstrate the most closed-minded attitude of any group.

I say it isn't about me being right or you being right. If there is something that is true, it's true, regardless of what you or I believe. As for data, there's scads of it. Untold volumes of it. Millenia-worth. It just doesn't fit into your system of measurement.

If I'm wrong in my beliefs, I haven't lost anything. I'll die and there will be nothing but oblivion. But if you're wrong, you've lost everything. Knowing what I know, it's not a gamble I'm willing to take, regardless of the immediate state of my 'faith' at any given moment.

I haven't mentioned religion once. I believe in God because of faith, which I came by independently of any organized theology. My beliefs are deeply held, and come from a desire to be more in touch with the world around me and with the creator of that world. Your beliefs can be summed up with "ain't no God gonna tell me what to do." We have different definition of intelligence.

What if Islam is correct? Then we've both lost.

because they're the only ones trying to force their beleifs on this country. the great white burden and all.



yet you summarily reject my beliefs, as i've outlined above
it doesnt fit my definition of accurate data. how can anyone who is still alive tell us about the hereafter?

bullshit. you believe in god because everyone expects you to.
from the very beginning, you've been led to believe without proof. faith. faith is another way of saying, "trust me" which is Yiddish for "fuck you"

my beliefs cannot be summed up by saying anything. maybe you're right about us having different def's of intelligence. your blinders are getting in your way.

While I can't argue that many of us are pushy about our beliefs, we don't do it any more than any other group. The vegans don't want me to be able to go to McDonalds. The atheists don't want kids to be able to have prayer groups at school. Muslims think Jews are full of shit. Jews think Christians are full of shit. Christians think atheists are full of shit. In modern American society, however, only Christians are considered fair game for your scorn. SNL occasionally pokes light fun at Jews with Brooklyn accents, but that's it. Imagine the outrage at a Muslim version of the Church Lady.
Yes. We summarily reject one another's beliefs because they are diametrically opposed. It's the nature of the beast. However, I don't go around calling all non-Christians delusional. I just say they're wrong. Big difference in tone, dude.
They can't tell you what color the drapery is, or whether or not we have to play harps 24 hrs a day. But they can tell you about the peace they feel when they've come to grips with their own sinful nature and the relationship between themselves and God that they perceive on a very deep level.Don't start getting personal. I don't presume to know your motives, stay away from mine unless I tell you what they are. I was taught about God in childhood. I didn't become convinced of his existence until later. My faith doesn't need proof, but the proof I see bolsters my faith. My conversion happened as a result of trying (and failing) to live a life without meaning. I spent all my time trying to find pleasure for myself. Being a fairly decent sort, I spent money on others and tried to make them happy - but never at the expense of my own pleasure and immediate happiness. I got everything I wanted, like any spoiled brat. I was utterly miserable. Couldn't get high enough, couldn't get laid enough, couldn't even go hunting enough to kill the ache that I pretended wasn't there.

The longer I think about it, the more offended I am that you would insult my experience by saying that I'm just parroting what some preacher told me. I get that you're bitter about something, but it wasn't my fault, man. Read The Case for Christ for an example of a journalist who set out to disprove Christianity and..um..fell victim to the brainwashing of hordes of mindless fable-obsessed morality zombies.

I think it's time to set the record straight about something else. There's a little difference between my faith and my politics. The latter is influenced by the former, but I don't think government should necessarily be rooted in theology. Yah, it would be nice, from my point of view. But I think the Denver Broncos should win every football game they play, too. Let's just say I think secular government works better if it's populated by those who don't ignore the belief system of a large portion of their constituency.

Nothing personal about what i said. no more than you intimating that i'm not intelligent, anyway:hell, noodle, i dont even know your name. ( i dropped the "mr" because that is a term of respect, and right now, my respect for you is slipping)

i find it highly unlikely that :independantly? really? I. myself, have a kernel of doubt about this because of the information I was given all of my life about this. Even though logically, I feel that if there is a "GOD", then it's just as likely to be any of the available religions' god, or pagan gods, or the force as it is to be the god that lives in heaven. My parents are christian, my school taught us the christian faith, although they aren't supposed to. Our leaders and government, the TV, the people I talked to growing up. all calmly accept the christian faith as a given, and are surprised when they encounter someone who disbelieves.

how can you say you were not influenced by organized religion? it's insidious. it's everywhere. unavoidable. you claim to take credit for arriving at the same conclusion by coincedence? that's why i said "bullshit"...because it is. you may not have noticed, but you were taught to believe in god.

You all might be right, noodle. but, so might I be. and so might the Jews, the Buddhists, the Muslims.

and I don't summarily dismiss your belief. It is every bit as likely as mine. I reject your pity:
if i'm not a christian, what makes you think i've lost anything? hubris, i say. you ASSUME that everyone wants to go to "heaven" and praise the Lord for eternity. sounds like a real picnic.

I'm not trying to insult your experience. I'm saying that because you enjoy your belief in GOD, doesn;t mean I have to. Nor does it mean that I will go to hell because I don't believe what you believe.

I am happy for you that you have your faith. i'm sure it helps you on a daily basis. really. i'm not being sarcastic. you seem like a good dude. go with god. you'll probably go to heaven when you die. My real opinion is that you experience what you expect to experience when you die. you judge yourself.

i believe in reincarnation

Time to ratchet it down a notch. Your intelligence isn't in question, and I'm sorry if I came across that way. As for the rest:I'm saying that I had an experience that proved to my satisfaction the existence of God. This experience happened during a period of searching that resulted from a lifetime of rebelling against what I had been taught about God. Nobody "made" me believe anything. I didn't believe it, didn't want to believe it, thought it was a crutch for weak-minded fools and a tool of the establishment to gain control over the populace. I was a fairly proficient tarot card reader (albeit with no training), dabbled in nature worship, went the hedonism route for a few years, then was fairly agnostic until I finally realized that life with God was far richer than life without. Why would I ignore a revelation like that? When I saw people's lives and attitudes change dramatically for the better because they had (or "felt they had", if that's more palatable to you) a personal relationship with God (again, insert quotes wherever they suit you), it made an impression. It didn't have much to do with my upbringing - my parents are consistently horrified by my behavior. The only thing we really agree on is that Jesus died so we didn't have to. What's so wrong with that? The fact that I tell other people about it? Sorry to step in their preconceived notion of the horrors of "religion", but they'll get over it.Might be. A bird flying overhead *might* belong to a number of species, but the possibilities don't really matter. It's either a bluebird, or a blackbird, or whatever. The other choices are necessarily void. If it makes one happy to call a blackbird a stork, fine. But if I know better, don't expect me to give your opinion equal weight to mine.If I see that a giant boulder is falling down a mountain towards your house, I feel it's my responsibility to warn you. If the boulder turns out to be a pebble, or takes a course away from your house, that's fine. I did what I thought was right. As for assuming that everyone wants to praise the lord for all eternity, I don't. I would think that people's aversion to that fate is made clear simply by turning on the television.

What makes me think you will lose something? What makes you think you haven't?

my "asshole button"? that's a good one. don;t get shit on your finger!

rofl.....

you're right about those that choose to believe and have faith. i said brainwashing. that was too strong a word. i refer to the effect that the cumulative opinion of the masses has on the individual. the "peer pressure"....

I may seem cranky. what i really am feeling is disapointment. or bewilderment.

as i said before, i find it appalling that people who's opinions I normally respect......break down and fall back on "faith" as their argument. faith is not an argument. faith is believing something that you can't prove. While I can;t prove them wrong. my position is at least as valid as theirs. why can;t we just say " i dunno?"

neither of you two have said ...hey, yeah, your idea is just as good as mine. I've repeated that several times now. respect me, and i'll respect you.