Effectiveness of prison
 

The purpose of the prison system is ostensibly to rehabilitate criminals, but I know of few people who feel that it accomplishes that. It does sometimes act as a deterrent, and it does keep dangerous criminals (and naughty priests *cough*) off the streets for a time, but I think that very few ex-cons walk out the prison gate at the end of their sentence with a new appreciation for the humanity who was wronged by their crime. I think they probably harbor a fair amount of bitterness, mixed with another part anger, fear, crazy, or any combination of the above.

Do you guys agree? What would be a better system, if any?

What if prisons were reserved for violent offenders, and all others were basically put under monitored house arrest, with their freedoms severely limited... like a very scrictly enforced parole? They could be required to wear a non-removable tracking device so their movements could be followed. For the more troubled non-violent criminals, mandatory therapy could be added to the sentence.

Maybe that's a poor solution. I just think it's fucked up that guys who get busted for having a couple joints can be forced to spend a few years in a big concrete-and-iron building with a bunch of violent murderers and rapists.

Restitution would be nice, of course when there isn't a victim that can be a might difficult.

As near as I can tell, todays prisons are not much more than a period of taking it in the ass while you learn how to not get caught. There's your rehabilitation.

A lot of people don't realize where the term "deadline" comes from.

It comes from early prisons that didn't have walls, only a line on the ground.

If you crossed that line a sniper administered the punishment.

There's what used to be a deterrent.

Some people speak about it as an either/or situation - either incarceration is for deterrence, OR it's for retribution, OR it's for rehabilitation, etc. In school, my criminal law professor, who was an active federal prosecutor, taught us that incarceration's purpose was all of these, with a few more thrown in.

In a sense, no two convicts are 'in there' for exactly the same reasons, nor will they be affected by the experience in exactly the same way. All the rehabilitative opportunities in the world will be wasted on some, while the most draconian punishments and deprivation imaginable will be similarly wasted on others.

My own take on the state of prisons in America is that control of the asylum has, to a large extent, been ceded to the inmates. It's far easier to avoid 'stressing out' the convicts, by pretty much permitting them to run the place, rape and beat one another at will, use illegal drugs, in some cases wear civilian clothes, etc., than it would be to bring back the striped prison outfits, leg irons, iron discipline, and constant lack of privacy and loss of individual identity that would make prison the last place to which anybody, regardless of their criminal propensities or lack of mental acuity, would wish to return.

Prisons are less than worthless for rehabilitation. Go in a criminal, come out a worse criminal... or a gang-raped AIDS-infected shell of a person.

Prisons don't seem to work for deterrence, though I suspect that's because most criminals don't figure on getting caught.

Prisons do keep criminals from committing crimes against most people for the time they're in prison. That seems to be about it.

Effectivness of prison
 

Quote "The pupose of prison is ostensibly to rehabilitate criminals.

Balderdash.. it punishment for wrongdoing,I dont give two hoots if the guy who rips me off has a hard luck story,fuck im I've been poor but I did'nt rob or murder someone to get what I wanted.
I want the bastard to go to jail end of story.

Story in yesterday's paper.16 year old guy in Glasgow attacks a complete stranger at a bus stop,knocks the guy over the head with a metal pole then jumps up and down on the poor guys head as if it was a trampoline.He then threw the pole away walked away but came back and had another go at the man before being dragged off.The guy dies in hospital and the 16 year old's up for murder.his excuse,had been drinking wine beer and vodka and had no recollection of the crime.
The Judge in these cases asks for social background reports and the good old social workers recommend community service or a fine,the social worker requested the Judge not to impose a sentence of such length that would have the 16 year old feeling he had been written off by society.
The Judge dismissed their report and gave the bastard 18 years.

I would have had him swinging on the end of a rope.
How can you rehabilitae that???

Except in the cases of the death penalty or life in prison, rehabilitation is necessary. Otherwise you end up with a ton of hardened criminals coming out of prison each year.

be-bop... the key word there is "ostensibly," which means that it "seems to" or "pretends to" rehabilitate criminals. I agree with you, the prison system DOES NOT rehabilitate the criminal most of the time. It may instill fear of returning to prison, thus acting as a preventative measure against future crimes, but that's different from the regret and desire to improve one's life which rehabilitation would provide.

I wasn't claimig that prisons DO rehabilitate criminals, I was stating that in my opinion and observations, they DON'T. But is there a better answer? Can these criminals be fixed (in either meaning of the word... heheh *cough*).

Prison? well it keeps them off the streets.;)

In Philly, a crack dealer was given house arrest, where he had to wear an anklet the would notify the authorities if he got to far from his telephone.
The cops found him selling crack in front of his house with the phone on a long extension cord sitting next to him. :rolleyes:

I think prisons could be better if we as a society focused more on rehabilitation than punishment. There are some criminals that cannot be rehabilitated, but I suspect that a large number of them can.

Not to mention, how many people in prison (especially federal prisons) are drug felons? Most of that is simply bullshit, IMO.

That house arrest is a good idea, poorly implemented. First, the anklet should use GPS positioning rather than proximity to a moveable station. Second, there should be cameras involved... privacy is a right one loses when in prison, so why should house arrest be any different? Software could be developed to watch the camera feeds and the GPS data, and be able to detect suspicious activity. A human observer could then be alerted, and check the camera feed personally to watch for problems... there's the job for all of the out-of-work prison guards (those who don't switch to a career of stripping, anyway *cough*).

I guess there'd need to be an escalataion system for people who commit crimes while under house arrest. Hmm.

I agree that prisons, while designed to be places of reform, are anything but helpful to a lot of people. There are some people who trulely beyond help and they need to be behind bars but thats not the same for everyone who serves time. I think that there needs to be a better disinction made between the two groups. The prison system has already done this by segregating violent inmates but I believe that more can be done.

Unfortunately an issue brought up by this is what exactly are the requirements for someone to be written off as incurable? Its hard to comprehend how violent or disturbed some people can be. Where do we draw the line between those curable and those beyond help?

Personally I've always favored the prisons that make the imates work. Examples include Angola State and some newer prisons in Arizona. In these situations at least the inmates are helping to pay for their expense on the government, having something to do rather than stew in a cell all day, and even getting some valuable work skills for their lives outside of prison.

Sidenote: As for these ever increasing number of corporate criminals, commit a crime=do the time. These people shouldn't be sent to so-called white coller prisons (like the one formerly located a Eglins AFB in Florida) because they have a lot of money. They screwed a lot of people over and deserve equal punishment.

I had the joy today of watching a juvenile probation officer anklet one of her kiddie prisoners.

Not as exciting as watching some of our most annoying patients being taken out in shackles and a lapbelt for a ride to The Big House, but satisfying in it's way.

What was truly amusing was watching her on discharge, crying to her mother, insisting that she was now having trouble walking because of the house-arrest bracelet.

"They were SOOOOOO mean ....."

my gut reaction to the prison problems we have is to say that they are too nice to the inmates.

There are those who intentionally get locked up so that they get 3 squares, a bed and shelter from the elements. If they kept the bad guys in holes in the ground, and paid someone to piss on their heads each morning, maybe, just maybe there'd be less inmates to deal with. Our prisoners have TV, excercise equipment, "recess", hot meals, etc. Their basic needs are handled for them. No pressure to succeed or better themseves in order to provide themselves more than the next guy has. As long as they keep their head down, and don;t get in extra trouble, they'll be released as early as possible, so the state can be done with supporting them.

Most prisons warehouse their inmates, and the potential for rehab is improbable at best. The only thing the inmate has is time. Some choose to take advantage of it, some don't. These are the redeemable, and irredeemable. The system is what it is. It is up to the individual incarcaree to rehabilitate himself.

Compare the lives and rights of a prisoner to that of a person in the military.

To the ones that deserve to be in prison, fuck you, you have it easier, and have more rights, than I did.

Many years ago, I was in the security office of a store where a shoplifting suspect was being held - it was this scraggly-looking little guy of about 30, who'd been caught trying to walk out of the store with several Polaroid film packs stuck in his pants; he was sitting in a chair with his hands cuffed behind him, and as soon as the police arrived, he started whining: "Officer, these handcuffs really hurt my wrists...they really hurt my wrists." The Phoenix PD officer stopped by the chair, looked down his nose at the guy, and just said, "They're supposed to." And walked on.

I some time work on coin counters in casinos , once as i was waiting to get escorted into hard count ( where ALL the coins are ) at a casino the security officers brought this drunk scraggley looking mexican dude to their holding pen , he was cussing spitting and kicking yelling that what they were doing to him was wrong . I asked one of the officers what was the deal . Drunk mexican dude had snagged a ladys tub-o-coins and took off running , security had given chase , drunk dude hit a collom he and the coins went flying every where , security collected him and the coins , gave the coins back to the lady , she desided NOT to press charges . Security escorted drunk dude off the property and was told never come back , drunk dude steped Back accross the property line saying " what are you going to do about it Mother F%$#@!ers ????"
They put him back across the line 3-4 times , then cuffed him and stuffed him in a car , and take him to their holding pen.
They called the local cops . This is in Mississippi , small town that suddenly has 8-10 BIG ass casinos in the county . Local cop comes in smileing , Security tells him whats up , his expression changes to NOT a smile . Local cop trades the hand cuffs that casino security use ( the kind that swivel at the wrists ) to his cuffs ( these don't swivel ) . Drunk dude starts bitching , local cop grabes his face and says " SHUT UP !!!! yOU AIN'T DEALING WITH SECURITY ANY MORE !!!!!" Local cop puts drunk dudes hands above his head ( his hands were behind his back ) , and walks him out to his car . I don't know just what happened out at the car but a casino security officer came running back in VERRY white faced saying " turn the camers OFF !!!!"
Most folks don't know that all the casinos in that area are ALL on corp of engeneers land ( federal land leased to the casinos ) and ANY offence can and most probley WILL be a federal offence ...

Don't join the bleeding military then. Get what you ask for.
Switzerland has a real issue at the moment where in the last few years there has been an influx of immigrants from africa who run make up the majority of dealers in the country. For these guys prisons here are *luxury* compared to just living back home so there is no deterrent whatsoever.

Perhaps...or maybe, just maybe, we have a combination of ridiculous laws on the books and a system that is more focused on punishment than rehabilitation.

[dar512/dave]There is no such word as "incarcaree."[/dar512/dave]

And I agree with you to a point. For some, a shove in the right direction would do wonders. They just don't quite get it by themselves, but when you give them a bit of guidance, they figure it out. In addition, you can follow the right path, but your fate is still in the hands of others...for example, child molestors who have done their time, but are held beyond the end of their sentence. Not to mention, when you're in prison, you lose some of your individuality. A higher power is pulling your strings to a degree.

The convict has already shot himself in the foot...but how helpful is it for the system to shoot them in the other foot?

clarification:
by bad guy, i mean really bad...like murderes and rapists, and such....i wouldn't condone pissing on martha stewart.

Hey, I thought you said that sort of thing turned her on. That whole relationship-with-Martha thing wasn't all a lie, was it?

*cough*

Ew.

Ohhhhh...so THAT'S what Jimbo meant when he said "golden arches."

shuduuuuuup! inxjay is isteninglay!

There was a very funny SNL bit a number of years ago - well, it featured Dan Aykroyd, so you can imagine - that was supposed to be a commercial for one of those places where you send 'troubled teens' for counselling. Aykroyd played a staff member, who was walking along a path with one of the kids, and he was saying things (while offering the kid a smoke) like, "Hey, just smile and take your folks' crap, do what you want to when you're sure you can get away with it, shine them on till you're out of the house, and then you can party at college...", etc. In other words, advising the kid to avoid trouble by just lying low and telling people in authority what they want to hear.

It's funny because I suspect that a large number - perhaps even a majority - of law-abiding citizens get through life by doing exactly that. We all have things that we'd LIKE to do - or at least things that we can imagine ourselves doing and would probably enjoy very much - that, if we actually woke up one day and did them, would get us fired, or divorced, or sent to jail or prison; we don't do them because we have learned to prioritize our desires and needs, and to control ourselves to some extent.

We've all known kids of various ages who for whatever reason simply didn't 'get it' when it came to keeping things in perspective, prioritizing intelligently, and staying out of trouble. Most kids eventually do learn those very important life skills, but of course many don't - they remain dysfunctional and self-destructive into adulthood, and the jails and prisons of the world are filled with them. I'm sure that they range, intellectually, from some of the dumbest people to some of the smartest, but even the highly intelligent ones are damaged in that they seem to be incapable, when out in society, to sublimate their personal desires to society's need for them to 'be good' and live by the rules.

I'm no expert, but I have to believe that most career criminals are done exactly zero good by 'rehabilitation' of any kind - they've just never developed the coping skills necessary to be (what they would probably call) 'citizens' (non-criminals), and beyond a certain age they're just never going to.

The sad fact is that I would pay $20-30K a year to have a guy who stomps on peoples heads when he gets drunk locked up. Unfortunately, there may not be enough beds because they have also locked up another guy who was caught with 2 ounces or marijuana or 'possesion of drug paraphanalia'.

Maybe I'm becoming more libertarian in my old age, but my belief is that society should getsto regulate some of what goes on in the streets and almost none of what happens behind closed doors.

I don't want to start Prohibition again because of violent drunks and I don't want to continue Marijuana prohibition because of stoned assholes.

DUI is DUI whether on 'drugs' or alcohol. 'Public drunkeness', if you really want to enforce it, should be the same.

Hold people to the same standard of behavior in public. drunk as sober and make them responsible for the consequences of their right to drink/do drugs.

Someone who stomps on people for kicks, drunk or sober, isn't someone I want walking around. If he can be rehablitated, fine, but do it from behind bars.

BTW, white collar criminals need to go to jail. In terms of social harm, the board of Enron did more damage than a horde of drug dealers at a church picnic.

As for prison rape, I think that allowing that kind of behavior is bad for society. A lot of people joke about it, and I begin to wonder if authorities and guards don't begin to feel as it is some form of accidental justice. I believe that by imagining and possibly supporting the concept of prison abuse, we as a society are feeding revenge fantasies which are poisoning us.

The word penitentiary comes from penitance. While the Puritans among our founding fathers may have been accidentally cruel, favoring long periods of solitary confinement for prisoners to reflect, I think they did understand that the decency of a society can be measured by its prisons.

I found this link of History of Prisons .

Interesting that there is a mention that the charter of William Penn provides for damages for those wrongully imprisoned. Hearing about some of these men released from death row on DNA evidence, I wonder if any of them received compensation?

The other popular response to this one is "if you would stop struggling against them, they won't hurt at all."

I don't think prison has anything to do with punishment, rehab, or anything else. I think it has to do with giving society the feeling that justice has taken place. Those interpretations are from the perspective of the incarcerated which, in answering this question, is, imho, not correct.

That explains the outrage over prison amenities like cable TV and Playboy subscriptions as well as the deafening silence w/r to the sexual and physical abuse that occurs there.

Prison is resitution to society. Nothing more, nothing less, imho.

Do you get regular anal rape in the military?

Nobody asks, nobody tells.

Prison would be a LOT more effective if....
 

The decided to do lab testing on convicts than on animals.....

NOW before anyone gets their panties in a bunch...I mean HARDCORE criminals...forgers, pickpockets, bruglars...etc....I don't mean them......How about multiple rapists/murderers (hey the green river killer....Why should the people of Wash. state have to pay to keep this lunatic locked up...)

Does them with some aids or cancer and give them experimental drugs to see how they would effect the human body! Hey it's the LEAST they can do to re-pay society!!

I think the whole escape from NY...escape from LA thing is looking more and more attractive!!!

Later!

Re: Prison would be a LOT more effective if....
 

Lady Sidhe has been pushing this idea for years, but I don't think it's practical because you have no way to measure or control the quality of the research subject. You can't control their drug intake or have any idea of their medical history.

Yeah, but who needs a medical history to find out if, say, the eyeliner irritates their eyes or the perfume makes them break out in hives?

That'd be DAMN funny, inmates forced to walk around wearing experimental-formula makeup.

Re: Prison would be a LOT more effective if....
 

Actually, my father used to be part of a company that did just that. They tested the effectiveness of over the counter drugs past their expiration dates at prisons and colleges.

It consisted of subjects being paid to take aspirin, anti-histamine, etc and allow blood samples to be taken.

I think it works well as a deterrant. If it wasn't for prison I wouldn't put half as much effort into covering my traces.

Re: Prison would be a LOT more effective if....
 

FINALLY! Someone who agrees with what I've been saying for years!

I also think that prisons should be self-sufficient, like Hunt Correctional Center here in Louisiana. Why should we have to pay for these people? I'm all for the Gov. in Arizona who put the inmates in tents in the desert.


Hunt is also a "deadline" facility, in that there are no fences. There are field workers and armed guards on horseback, and if anyone tries to make a run for it, they shoot them. Hunt, however, isn't a "prison." It's more of a "boot camp." You have to be a trustee to go into the Impact Program, and every two days there takes a day off your sentence. They get up at the ass-crack of dawn, do PT, run a few miles (or if they piss off their guard, they duckwalk for a few miles--got that straight from the mouth of a duck who spent over a year there. They grow beans, so that's what the inmates get to eat. He swears he'll never touch beans again.), then they go to work doing whatever it is they're told to do. Not a whole lot of tolerance for bullshit at Hunt.

And hell, inmates get free schooling anyway--I think that a useful degree should be a requirement for parole/release. That way they have something they can use to support themselves when they get out.

And last, but not least: put executions on pay-per-view and donate the money to the prisons. Then the anti-death-penalty whiners won't be able to say that it costs more to execute someone than keep them alive.....

Well, that's all from me tonight...I've been up since 6am, and it's midnight. I have to get up in six hours.

Night, all...



Sidhe

confirms my feelings about work...a prizon full of deadlines.....

Once upon a time, they did do medical experiments on prisoners.

There is a book about the studies done at Holmesburg Prison in Philadelphia.

And, if needed, prisoners would be able to get an organ transplant sooner than *I* would! :mad: