Stepford patriotism
 

I will preface this by saying that the WTC/Pentagon disasters did not personally touch me in any way. I don't know anyone who was there, none of my relatives or friends are anywhere near NYC or DC, and I might be responding a little bit differently if they had been.

Having said that, there is one thing that is bugging me about the current state of the nation, and that's the inevitable rush of symbolism.

I'm picturing in my mind many thousands of people going out and purchasing flags, planting them on their homes and cars, proudly displaying their loyalty to something they probably didn't even think about a month before.

I'm picturing a gathering of tens of thousands, all wearing the same colors, chanting various statements of support, united in their hatred of those who oppose their side and ready to beat the hell out of anyone who disagrees with them.

What I just described was not the current rush on stores to buy American flags or anything with the American flag on it -- rather, it's the behavior of Sixers and Eagles fans in our city. But, odd as it may sound, there is a parallel to be drawn between them.

I've watched innumerable reports from hardware stores, T-shirt shops, etc., where anything that's red, white and blue is vanishing off the shelf in an instant. I've watched people calling for national "Wear Red, White And Blue Days," as if it'll make it all better. I've watched people who didn't give a rat's ass about the flag two weeks ago draping themselves in it now, talking about American pride and American patriotism and how great it is to be an American. And then I think about the way the city paints itself green sixteen times a year, more in a playoff year, and the connection hits home a little too well.

It's not that it _isn't_ great to be an American. I live here, I always have and I always will, and despite the excesses of our government and our citizens at times, I feel it's probably the best place in the world for people to live. This country is my home. But I don't get all revved up about it, because I view most patriotism as wasted effort. My country is a big chunk of earth surrounded by natural and artificially-designated borders, not a mystical land that blesses all those who walk upon it with goodness and purity and righteousness. I root for America in the Olympics, because that's when flags are a convenient way to divide teams and keep score in unimportant sporting events, but that's about as choked up as I get about the concept.

People are now spending a LOT of money on red-white-and-blue fervor. Does this do anything constructive? Does this send a practical message to Osama Bin Laden, who'll recoil in fear at the tri-colored show of unity? Could that money be put to much better use if it was sent directly to the American Red Cross, the victims' family support groups, the rescue workers, or similar causes? Is there something wrong -- or unpatriotic -- or sinister about those who aren't buying flags as fast as they can make them, or wearing red-white-and-blue ribbons wherever they go?

You're not buying support for our dead, our cops and firemen and rescue workers, our President or our soon-to-be-very-busy armed forces. You're buying a symbol, and you're buying it because everyone else is, too. Well, you can be just as united in intention and spirit without wearing the official uniform and buying team-logo goods from all the souvenir shops, and you can do a lot of other things with your time, money and effort that are a bit more productive.

Likewise, the Arabs among us are walking targets, just as much as the poor saps who wear blue-and-silver to Eagles/Cowboys games. No 7-Eleven, diner, Subway or mosque is safe today, nor will it be for many years to come -- even if many of those who are getting stomped are from countries that support ours, are proud American immigrants, and/or are just as united in their hatred of what's gone down. Never mind, they don't look right -- WHAM, there go your windows, WHACK, there go your teeth, BOOM, go back to your country, Arab scum. Even if this IS your country now... or was.

We have people ready to frame this as a new Crusades, a religious war, ready to drive the Muslims into the sea. (And, I'll grant, many of them are ready to do the same to us.) I read Ann Coulter ranting that "We need to invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." I watch Jerry Falwell foam at the mouth about how gays, feminists and the ACLU share the blame for this tragedy, because they've been "mocking God" and this is somehow the divine consequences. I listen to angry people on the radio calling for nukes, calling for immediate air strikes, calling for bombs to wipe away the faces of those who cheered the explosion on TV. And, somewhere in the pit of my stomach, an ulcer forms, because this is _reinforcing_ the things they hate about us and helped cause this mess in the first place.

The average Muslim -- or the average Afghani -- could care less about America or its many religions, and certainly wouldn't want any of this to have happened. (Half of them probably don't even know where New York is.) Just like the average American (Christian, Jew, atheist or otherwise) is perfectly happy with a multicultural and multi-religion world, and feels there's plenty of room for everyone. There are extremists on both sides, and raw emotion is giving America's extremists the floor right now, with many rallying behind them. And I wince, even while I comprehend the pain and the anger and the frustration driving that emotion.

Yet too many people want Afghanistan bombed to the Stone Age right now, with death tolls higher than what we have suffered, to "send a message" to terrorists worldwide. News flash -- terrorists, as a general rule, aren't afraid to die. Terrorists capable of suicide bombings and flying planes into buildings certainly aren't afraid of death. The people who just happen to live in the country that harbors those people -- THEY'RE afraid to die. And they should be, as many of them will, I fear. I know I'll probably cheer as much as anyone else when Kabul starts exploding, just for the sheer vengeance factor... but I know that many around the world will watch that on TV and act just like Americans did when they saw Palestinians celebrating the WTC in the streets, and especially when average citizens get caught in the crossfire. Their hearts will be hardened even more, their devotion to their cause will be strengthened, and the cycle will continue, and we'll act surprised when something else blows up in America a month from now.

It's being called an "act of war." Yes, but it's an unwinnable war, as it's a war of religion -- a war of intolerance -- a war of Us Vs. Them with no gray area present or permissible. It's a war that no bombing, no assassination, no crackdown on civil liberties will quell. It's a war I don't have an answer or a solution for. And no flag, no T-shirt, and no grandstanding displays of patriotism can make a meaningful difference, or bring our lost people back. We need to put our energy and our emotions into more productive channels.

And I'm venting, and I'll stop now.

<i>I read Ann Coulter ranting that "We need to invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." I watch Jerry Falwell foam at the mouth about how gays, feminists and the ACLU share the blame for this tragedy, because they've been "mocking God" and this is somehow the divine consequences.</i>

I really pity anyone who doesn't understand the TOTAL hypocrisy in bloodthirsty religious fanaticism from our side.

Thank you for writing that vsp.

i agree w/ vsp
 

first i wanna say dont criticize my spelling, i know how to spell i just choose not to cuz its easier, shorter or im just used to it this way, so if u have a problem w/ my spelling, too damn bad.

the disasters did not effect me in any way...i do feel very sadly for all those who lost their lives and family members but i personally didnt lose anyone or anything.

i completely feel the same way about the symbolism and also the newfound respect everyone has for each other...2 weeks ago everyone was still being assholes to each other and not giving 2 shits what happens. now all of a sudden we get a plane through a few buildings everything changes, everyone decides they are now this big patriotic person and gets all the red white and blue shit. well lets put it this way...wen i was younger i used to be very patriotic, that was wen i was ignorant and still young and innocent. now that im older(16), i realize how much a crock of shit this country is (no offense to anyone who likes it...specially vsp but thats my feelings). i am an anarchist and yes am glad that wut happend to the pentagon happend. im not as glad about the fact that it happend to the wtc but the pentagon i was cheering about. sorry to those who lost family or friends, but the pentagon deserved it.

like vsp said, running out and buying all the flags and shit is gonna help the people up there how. if u really care about ur country or the people who are trying to help, fuck the colors, fuck the flags and enough w/ the bullshit...go help someone, donate blood or at least fuckin send the money u woulda bought shit w/ to the people who need it for everything thats goin on.

also the fact that arabs are now being attacked in our country, ya they did it to us, but it doesnt mean that every arab, dark, indian, or middle east person is affiliated w/ them. (im white by the way). hearing that arabs in our country are being killed or beat upon simply cuz there not like you is horrible. you become just as ignorant and pig-headed as those who did this to us by doing something like that...wut point does it prove? ill tell ya...it proves jack shit...so fuck off...leave them alone and let them go about their business.

and wuts the deal w/ fuckin religious war? thats an oxymoron. how can 2 peoples fight over a god and land. you dont need land to worship god. land and god are 2 separate things that one does not rely on the other.

i feel that it is also pathetic that it takes something this size to bring our country together and stand up. and we are standing up in hate, in anger, and maybe in pain. the pain is understandable. but if u dont have any family or friends that were effected by this then you should not be sayin lets level them all. this just goes to show how fucked up this country and society is even more.

i continue to be an anarchist and just cuz its nat'l red white and blue day doesnt mean im not gonna wear my anarchy shirt to skool cuz its against this country. ya i know it is thats why im wearin it. should i all of a sudden change my beleifs cuz we were attacked and will probably go to war (which by the way i am against anyway cuz it will solve absolutely nuttin so thats more of a reason i will not like this country)? no i am still an anarchist and i will continue to beleive wut i beleive and i feel that anyone who has a problem w/ the fact that im not jumping on the fuckin patriotic band wagon and flyin our countrys shit around like its a magic cure to the worlds problems cuz we got hit by some tan dumbass w/ a knife then they can all stick it up their ass.

also tracking down bin laden and killing him is useless...cuz anyone who has people workin for him, has an assistant who is just as heartless, cold, and fucked up in the head. so bin laden dies ok then wut, then they come after us some more cuz we killed their leader, just like u would all be wantin to go more after them if bush was killed. and frankly i think bush is a cocksucker too. and if he dies i wont be surprised...its his own fault as well as those that ignored the warning of the attack 3 weeks ago.

i have nothing but sympathy for those who lost their lives and families and friends...but nothing as well for those who did not take heed and prevent this from happening, nothing for those who willingly beat on arab-americans simply for being arab(if i find anyone who is beating on someone simply cuz of the way they look then i will do some beating of my own upon the person who is so cold and closed-minded and thick headed to realize that they are people just like u and me...and tehy live in this fuckin country...maybe they do support it or maybe they dont...but the fact is...u dont beat on someone for something like that...so i leave with a good luck to those helping the survivors and the clean up crews and a simple but big

FUCK YOU

to our government leaders, assholes of the world, people who criticize me and others for beleifs different from theirs, and all the hypocrites who so seriously call themselves men of god and then go and wage war on a nation, on a people, while every second god watches over all of us.

tattooedmind

Re: Stepford patriotism
 

You bring up some good points vsp. I don't deny that this situation has made me feel more patriotic to a degree. I am proud to be an American citizen, and believe that we have to bind together as a nation in this tragedy. As a whole, I think people have rushed to the Stars and Stripes and the whole patriotism wave because they need something to cling to--we need to seek comfort in something b/c what has happened is so unthinkable.

However, I'm not rushing out to buy my flag. In this newfound patriotism that is overtaking the country is a bit too much emotion and some hate-mongering. That scares me. Bush is revving the nation up by calling this "the first war of the 21st century." Hate-mongers make a march on a Chicago mosque on Wednesday. In a separate incident in Chicago, a man was attacked with a machete because he looked Arabic. A Philadelphia cop pulls a handgun on a Pakistani worker at a 7-Eleven in Bala Cynwyd. Other random attacks, not only on Muslims and Arabs, but on people perceived to be Middle Eastern. And even here on the Cellar. THAT is scary...and it only fulfills our image as a country of "shoot first, ask questions later" dopes.

Quote:

We have people ready to frame this as a new Crusades, a religious war, ready to drive the Muslims into the sea. (And, I'll grant, many of them are ready to do the same to us.) I read Ann Coulter ranting that "We need to invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." I watch Jerry Falwell foam at the mouth about how gays, feminists and the ACLU share the blame for this tragedy, because they've been "mocking God" and this is somehow the divine consequences. I listen to angry people on the radio calling for nukes, calling for immediate air strikes, calling for bombs to wipe away the faces of those who cheered the explosion on TV. And, somewhere in the pit of my stomach, an ulcer forms, because this is _reinforcing_ the things they hate about us and helped cause this mess in the first place.

Falwell is a fucking idiot period. One in a line of "God-bringers" who take religion and twist it into their bully pulpit against those different from them. What's worse is that some people BELIEVE him.

Quote:

And no flag, no T-shirt, and no grandstanding displays of patriotism can make a meaningful difference, or bring our lost people back. We need to put our energy and our emotions into more productive channels.

Good words...

Re: i agree w/ vsp
 

We have extremist posts that suggest they never understood any of this above paragraph. For example, we have tattooedmind and nothing but net who both post strong emotional opinions without any logical reason for their positions and without any consideration for the long term consequences of advocated actions. Neither even implies a long term strategic objective - only an emotional response be it again terrorist or how the country works.

Extemists are often of low intelligence. They use profanity and typically don't understand the concept of a strategic objective. They must create instability to recruit from moderate ranks. It is why your own responses to current events must now, more than ever, be tempered with logical thought and a clear strategic objective.

Covering the Middle East in pork or nuking the Middle East are prefect examples of what an extremist wants. Sending profane e-mail only encourages an extremists who wants such unstable actions.

It makes absolutely no sense to attack emotionally - whether that be a whole religion, an ethnic background, or a mosque - since that only plays into the hands of extremist national governments (Afghanistan or Israeli) and extremist organizations (bin Laden).

That quoted paragraph was the first post in 'Perspective without Pictures'. Any yet some here do exactly what that first paragraph warns of. I must wonder if many Cellar posters even understood what is posted in that first paragraph.

Re: i agree w/ vsp
 

Translation: I'm lazy AND stupid. Please don't make fun of me.

Translation: Another copy of Walden is missing from the library. Last year, it was Lord of the Rings. Next year, it'll be A Clockwork Orange. The process is almost complete.

Translation: I am a pimply-faced adolescent, and the cool kids at school pick on me.

Translation: My Dad is SUCH an asshole... I'll show him who's boss someday!

Translation: I don't read much history, and I don't pay attention in class. History is completely beyond my comprehension. If I don't understand something, it must be wrong.

Translation: "Look at ME!! LOOK AT MEEEEE!! See how DIFFERENT I am?"

Translation: Serena Altschul on MTV News is SO HOT!!! I believe everything she says!

That's nice, dear. Run along now. The grown-ups are trying to have a conversation.

OUCH that was HARSH hubris, even nastier than some of the tirades aimed at me =P.YOu take calsses in this stuff or jsut years of training? On the other hand Ive come to the conclusion anyone who calls themselves an anarchist is confused and too apathetic to do anything about it.

Hed be better off reading Das Kapital than a clockwork orange with that line anyway. But that requires a tad longer than 5 minture attaention span....

No doubt religious fanatics on both sides, whether they truely believe in thier god or not will be out in force, ive seen a couple of holy war chrisitians here already (and abused one with a megaphone in the city(this is one of my hobbies)) . While we cant expect these people to have the foggiest that the US has in fact mostly brought this on themsleves, and ill say it in this thread as well but marx would call this class war, and class war it is, religion is not the issue.

tattooedmind, hah! Call yourself erasedmind, if you ever had one.
 

A hearty FUCK YOU to you too.

You're so innocent and anarchistic and love everyone! And all at the age of 16!

Get fucking over yourself, you fuckwad punk. Just because you have internet access doesn't mean your shit is worth smelling.

You don't like this country, then I hope you are an innocent American in Kabul when whatever happens goes down. Not that you'll be killed in the bombing, but what the locals will do to you, as an (ethnic) American who they can take THEIR revenge on. Go ahead, I'll contribute to your one-way ticket there.

There is no epithet despicable enough to describe you. Fuck! Too bad.

Ummm... anyway.

We have to remember something about the young folks who post here, they like us are still learning, but they don't have nearly enough historical background to keep things in perspective. Marx is getting attractive again, because the east block has thankfully collasped and the ideology still gets equal time at teachers colleges having as it does have value for historical analysis if not for government. Each generation has its blindspots. The so-called greatest generation can't recognize the elements of fascism which were adopted to defeat fascism. The babyboomers only just recently recognized the values of their parents had some merit but still carry the youthful hubris of having all the answers and have conceived all thoughts originally since they are historically illiterate. My generation X is perfect in every way. The folks younger than me have the misfortune of learning their history from the boomers and x'ers who were educated by either super patriots that went to college on the GI Bill and love the state or by radical pinks and reds who also seem to love the state first humanity second. The kids in the streets with their team anarchy sportswear don't know that that ground has been tilled before and most don't even realize how antithetical anarchy has to be to socialism.

On a different note, last Sunday my priest gave a stirring homily on the dangers of radicalism. He spoke specifically about religious zealotry and the dangers inheient to that. Two days later a bunch of probable Islamic zealots murdered several thousand of our countrymen. During the week we heard from our own homegrown zealots who would have their own fundementalism over us if given the chance. I know my own politics are radical to some but I look for reform inside the existing structures and am deeply committed to the principle that one never initiates the use of force. This morning, the feast day of our Lady of Sorrows, my parish family prayed as a community for the victims of these terror attacks. Work for justice and peace in your own way.

PS I mentioned that I had relatives in the FDNY stationed in Manhattan. I didn't realize that they all retired in the last couple years, their kids all chose different professions and thankfully were not personally involved.

Very true griff. For the record i'm not marxist, i was purely pointing out how Marx would see the whole thing, and IMHO, correctly. Its a longer term, more macro view of it but when you start looking at it makes alot of sense. I'm not saying Marx was right though. I'm not communist. For the record yes, i am studying the russian revolution in reat detail right now which probably explains all this....

Socialisim is being dragged up because of the extremes we are starting to take capatilisim to, i doubt much will come of it, at least for now. I have zero respect for people who go round painting those anarchy symbols on walls as though its somehow going to make everything better. Koizumi is getting it right - you must change the system from the inside, not the outside.

Capatilisim is saying "everyone is unequal but anyone can get the right side of unequal", the left tries to make everyone equal which just *does not work*. The problem with capatilisim is that not anyone can get the right side of equal due to inheritence, of busineeses, money, estates, and contacts. If you remvoed these it would be pretty damn good. Pity.

*waits for Hubris Boy to take this apart with a crowbar*

Sorry...after reading what I wrote, I noticed that it was a bit of a wandering post. My apologies.

Granted, I would have rather seen tattooedmind properly spell...reminded me of jag when he first got on here. ;)

Today's younger folk are smarter, mainly b/c they have more access to information. Ten years ago during the Gulf War, we were at the liberty of the big 3, CNN, and our local newspapers. On Tuesday, we could hit a number of websites, not only in our hometowns, but all across the world. If I wanted to know how people in Provo, UT reacted, I could go to their local newspaper or television station. When I heard about what happened in Chicago, I immediately went to the Tribune's website, knowing I would get the best information possible from a local news site.

At the same time, the cynicism that seems to pervade the younger generation worries me. Even though I hit my zenith during the "grunge" era, most people still seemed to have a positive outlook on the world...the sky was really the limit. The shift seems to have occurred sometime around 1997 and 1998. I can't take away how tattooed mind feels, but I can't deny that I find it alarming. And the kid is just 10 years younger than me.

Socialism is a beautiful theory. So is communism. But both are terribly hard to practice in our world.

You don't have to feel patriotic, or wear your red, white, & blue and wave a flag around. No one should be slanted for necessarily wanting to do so, nor should anyone be ostracized for NOT wanting to. But when I get to thinking about everything that is wrong here, I think about how bad it is in other parts of the world. Jag and I had this discussion earlier in the year--everywhere you go, there is going to be something that is negative. So, you find a place with the least amount of negatives, which compels me that I'm best off where I'm at--in the United States, in Philadelphia, in Torresdale.

As far as life in general, Voltaire said it best in the form of the title character in "Candide." Candide had been through the wringer and back, being a victim of so many tragic circumstances. Events that would have broken a lesser man, but Candide's faith in the good of the world had not diminished--"I do believe that this is the best of all possible worlds." Perhaps I need to clean my rose-colored glasses, but in spite of the tragic events I have seen in my 26 years of existence, I still believe that we live in the greatest of ages. What we have went through is horrible, but I do believe that it can make us better as Americans, and as a human race. And besides, I feel too young to be negative.

My typing/spelling improved coz i now cut/paste my posts into Word/KWord before i psot so Hubris can't bag me and people can understand what i'm trying to articulate.

HUbris partly got it right, i was talking to a friends little bro in year 9 last week and jsut listening to how cynical/negative he was reminded me of myself at that point. Kids go though a stage of suddenly reasliing how very fucked up so many things are. Then most switch off, some get pissed, become anarchists, socialists, protest on the streets etc (me for a while), some post negative commentrys on internet message boards ;) but most seem ot ome thought it ok.

I can live with world disaster these days, i'm comfortable with my politics etc, been there, done that, got it sorted. Its stuff closer to home that seem to be common for teenagers thses days. I spent an hour a few days ago beign interviewed by poice of the stabbing death of a friend's friend. I hurts every time i see deep new cuts on my friends arm and know they are no accident. Spending 4 hours hugging my crying girlfriend on a park bench after she ran away from home after a fight with ehr stepfather. Spending an entire night with another female friend who did the same after her father tried to beat her again. Its all just too common, i hate it. 80% of my friends smoke, about 30% take drugs, one old mate of mine i in rehab after a heroin overdone, he is 15 for crying out loud. No wonder kids are cynical today, go from saturday morning cartoons to CNN its no wonder really. The world around them and so often theri own lives are so screwed up its a natural defensive reaction, batton down, keep everyone out and be cynical as all hell.

I'd probaby be aot like tattooedmind if i didn't go to a school that fosters alot of discussion of such thigns on a very inteligent level, its great that you can be inthe public school system here and still spend hours talking about politics.

Why would I do that? This is a perfectly reasonable post. Not much here to take issue with.

Besides... I like you, Jag. I consider you to be one of my special projects! Look how much your spelling has improved, in such a short time, under my gentle tutelage! And that's just the beginning. I have big plans for you, Jag!

Of course, there's a lot of work to be done yet... but we'll get there, never fear. Stick with me, boy! I'll have you joining the National Party and volunteering for the SAS before we're done!

No, it was much much worse before you joined, Hubris. heh...

Quote:

Of course, there's a lot of work to be done yet... but we'll get there, never fear. Stick with me, boy! I'll have you joining the National Party and volunteering for the SAS before we're done!

Damnit Hubris...quit drinking the water from Baltimore Harbor! ;)

I could not help chuckling out loud when i read that.

And i agree with syc on the second point.

My spelling was always fine, i just can't type =P Though i have to admit going though each post fixing errors knowing if i don't i risk the wrath of Hubris Boy has certainly helped.

Dare i ask what area of politics the Natoinal party lurks in in the US? Here is right wing farmers/rednecks/racists mostly...Their intelict is as barren as the land they scratch a living out of.

Don't think i'm elligible for the SAS - glasses.
Pity. =P

Your one of about 5-6 people that over the last year seem to have hacked off most of the egotistical/stupid/arrogant/wrong/nauseating bits off my personality which sure as hell is not a bad thing.

Out of question hwo did you choose/end up with the name Hubris Boy?

A qucik checked turned up that your a K5 reader and there is a role in Greek Mythology but...

It's all a part of the ebb and flow. tattooedmind, if he is still with us, has now taken a set of lumps and if he has a thick enough skin, he'll stay around, get into the conversation, etc.

I have to be ever the diplomat. Even if we sit here and overanalyze someone to death, if it's all part of the learning process and the community process it's all good.

There was good to be found in his post and frankly it was a bit knee-jerk to say it was all due to age. When someone comes out and tells us (admits?) a personal aspect of themselves, it's probably unfair to attack on that point.

The HB gentle tutelage is part of the process and anyone whose been through it - if not from HB, from anyone else on the net - understands that.

Okay.....
 

I agree with VSP here.

Suddenly people are realizing how good they have it here, as compared to places like Lebanon, Afghanistan, Jordan, or Egypt.

Meanwhile, I hate seeing patriotism being "cool". I like America because it's a country where we don't have people dying in the streets like India, or America 100 years ago. Read The Jungle to see what I mean by that. We have a lot more here in America than anyplace else. I speak to so many people from other countries, and have friends from other countries especially, and they'd love to have so much time in their native lands to worry about the president.

Most people in this world care about where their next meal is coming from, and don't worry about George W. Bush :).

Most people want to be part of something that allows them to take out their aggressions. It's only natural. I saw a lot of this during the Gulf War, when people were taking out their aggression on Iraqis and Muslims. VSP comparing it to Cowboys fans at an Eagles game just sums it up for those of us from Philadelphia or who have spent time here.

I was driving around yesterday and saw many American flags on cars. The scary part is that I saw more Sixers flags on cars during the NBA finals.

It's cool to be a patriot now, apparently. Just like it was cool to cheer on AI during the playoffs.

Most people want to be detached from this situation.

Some of us have relatives working in that zone right now.

Meanwhile, we're arguing over the theoretical implications of this instead of doing something. VSP is right. It's cool for people to associate themselves with this, but not cool for them to do anything beyond face value.

This reminds me so much of late 1930's America, when everyone talked about Appeasement, especially Neville Chamberlain, and Anschluss, the Austrian-German unification of 1938.

During that era, we all talked about isolationism as well. We talked and talked, but did nothing.

Pearl Harbor changed that, because as the effects became clear, it because quite obvious that there are no innocents, and that everyone gets affected.

It took a little while, however America realized that everyone had to contribute. This attitude that we have is that of overconfidence.

Maybe it takes a few events like this for people to wake up out of their theoretical little world. Instead of just waving flags, we can do something. As someone who grew out of snotty kid into someone who knows that you can't ever categorize people, you can only work to do things to help others out.

There are no innocents. We can only do what we can to help others in existence.

Rant Off.

MBP

We don't really have an equivalent to the National Party here in the US. Maybe the yokels in the Reform Party... but they're not very big or well-organized. The closest thing we have would probably be the religious fundamentalist loonies in the Republican Party, and they're a minority. Most Republicans here would probably belong to the Liberal party if they lived in Australia.

Two words: Lasek Surgery. No excuses, dammit.

It's a term of "endearment" from an old girlfriend a long time ago... You see, when I was MUCH younger, I decided it would be a good idea to go to Fort Benning, Georgia and spend three weeks there learning to jump out of airplanes. The young lady in question disagreed with this decision, and voiced her concern in no uncertain terms. She was probably right, but what did I know? I was only 22, immortal, and indestructible. I've since learned better, but I still like the name.

And even when the Reform Party was well-organized, they were "Seinfeldian" at best: they wanted change, but their agenda never seemed clear. Then when Buchanan took control...well, we know the rest of the story. Given that their biggest claim-to-fame at one point was a former wrestler...

So i assume you were talking about the national party here - a wing of the liberal party really.....along with the infamous one nation, i'm surpised you've heard of the national party?

Yea i've looked at laser. Might when i'm 18. But come on - you don't need perfect eyesight to fight a war - just use a computer to drop bombs, thats the american way right =p

We don't really have an equivilent here for the democrats, the labour party is far too union based, although its almost as right wing as the liberal party these days. Democrats here give loans to the morally bankrupt liberals and piss everyone off by having the deciding vote in the Senate.

You know this sites motto really should be -1 Offtopic ;)

Well... I wouldn't go THAT far. I still have to qualify with an M-16 every 6 months, just in case we get a buffer overflow in the middle of the battle. ;0

-1 Offtopic. That's for sure!

You military?

yes im still w/ u
 

im still here...i lost the site wen i went home over the weekend(i posted from my vocational computer class). i will post again my response wen i get home today. and dont worry, im a long way away from dropping out now cuz of some criticizm. ill just say expect a long message wen i get home.

until then, peace!

tattooedmind

Only part-time these days, Jag. One weekend a month I get out of bed reeeeally early, put on a funny-looking outfit of assorted greens and browns, and assume my alternate identity as Major Hubris Boy, US Army Reserve.

Oh God... I'm going off on a tangent. Forgive me, Cellar Dwellars.

This past weekend was interesting because it was a drill weekend for my unit. The big topic of conversation (other than "Who do you think did it?") was "Do you think we're gonna be activated?" The general opinion is affirmative- based on the sound bites we've been hearing on the news from our political leaders, and the natural ability that all soldiers have to sense when their commanders aren't telling them something.

We may be wrong. We all hope so. The feeling around the battalion "clubhouse" was one of grim determination mixed with resignation. Don't believe the gung-ho crap you see in John Wayne movies: the quickest way to become a pacifist is to join the Army!

I'm pretty confident that I speak for most reservists when I say that I don't especially want to go. I've done it before. I spent 8 months in Kuwait back in '90-'91, and it isn't much fun. It's tough on the family, and it's a tremendous financial burden as well. All things considered, I'd rather stay home and read Harry Potter to my little girl.

We'll go if we have to, proudly and without complaint, because that's what we promised to do when we raised our right hands and took the oath. But we don't have to look forward to it, especially now...

It's a week after the attack and the shock and grief are starting to wear off. Suddenly, there are a lot of talk radio hosts, homespun foreign policy "experts" and drunks in bars barking about "sending in the Army", without thinking about the people who will actually have to go. Usually, the ones doing the barking are armchair warriors who've read a lot of Tom Clancy novels, but never felt the need to actually wear their country's uniform.

And that's fine. We don't mind. Really. We understand that military service isn't for everyone. But on behalf of all those who serve, let me make a request of any Cellar Dwellars who've managed to read this far: if you come across one of these bozos while they're mouthing off about sending in the military to clean up Afghanistan, do us a favor and tell them to shut the fuck up! You'll be serving your country well if you do. They're only fanning the flames of public opinion, and that's the last thing we need. There are lots of people who have better information and better training than these clowns. The real experts are busy trying to make the tough decisions right now, and they don't need help.

Thanks!

Love,
Hubris Boy, Major, MI
US Army Reserve

in response to everyone...
 

ok so here we go...first ill start w/

tw-im not an extremist, im an anarchist, yes i curse a lot, so wut, and yes i completely understand wut vsp was saying and i wasnt trying to comment so much on wut he said as much as post my own feelings, and happen to see his and agree w/ it and felt that it was a good spot to post mine.

hubris boy-yes im very lazy at times, but wen i wanna be i can be all over. but thats besides the point. i might be stupid sometimes yes, but i am the most open-minded individual on the face of this planet which is why im so accepting of new ideas, including anarchy.

i dont get the whole thing w/ the library or wutever but owell.

i dont get picked on much by kids at skool, i have many friends and only really get shunned for my beleifs by the smaller group of political kids who only talk politics and wrestling and history, and they mean shit to me anyway.

i dont understand how my dad has anything to do w/ the pentagon. the pentagon being hit makes me happy whether i hate my dad or not.

ok...religious war...ya its happend in history...does dat make it rite or justified? absolutely not. 30 years from now...someones gonna say 'o hey they drove a plane into a building 30 years ago it must be ok to do it again' if we think like that. theres nuttin in my view as a religious war, a fight over god. a fight over land to worship god is disgusting. god does not want fighting. why cant they all just live together and worship on the same ground...we dont seem to have a problem w/ it.

on being different now and an anarchist. first off...the fact that im an anarchist ever is different...there arent many of us out there. so yes, i am different, i continue to be different and speak out. i'll not change my feelings and beliefs all of a sudden cuz everyone feels we need the govt now. ya we do the govt now, but if there was anarchy we wouldnt have gotten hit in the first place. im different and sorry for not tryin to fit in and be like everyone else in the world and just go through motions each and every day.

bush bein a cocksucker has wut to do w/ mtv or serena altshul? ya shes hot but i dont beleive everything from her, not to mention mtv sux anyway...its full of posers and wanna be rockstars. so thats completely irrelevant to the conversation.

its prejudice bastards like u who continually shun the world of kids and teens who will someday be running this god-awful fucking country, so maybe the older generation(older than us) should maybe start to respect the kids a little more than they do and realize we have shit to say sometimes too! i just hope u dont treat all kids the way u treat me, cuz u will end up gettin ur ass kicked someday wen ur an old man by some punk on the street dat u look at funny and then break a hip or have a heart attack.

now, onward to the next person.

nothing but net-honestly i hafta give ya credit...more credit than hubris at least...i had an answer to his comments, i dont htink i have quite near a response as i did for his, but i do have one thing. u call me innocent, well, im far from innocent, and i dont just make my calls on the fact that i dont like this country. i have a few reasons for that...ill give u a few examples. these are just small ones. lets take the clinton trial for perjury. wen the votes were taken whether to keep him in office or not, 90% of the senators(i beleive, unless it was the house, i dont remember) did not make their vote on the fact that he had committed a crime, but on the fact that he was democratic. the democrats voted to keep him in, republicans out, w/ a few exceptions. if they had voted based on their morals and by the law, clinton should have rightfully been removed from office. im glad he wasnt, cuz the fact that his personal life was brought into the court was something that shouldnt happen anyway. they should have left it alone. he lied to protect his family and his name. if he lied about some matter that was governmentally important, i can understand. but while the politicians bullshitted about him gettin a blowjob, there were things that were more important that could have been addressed.
next topic, the recounted votes. simple as this, if the people decide who wins the election, then why did bush win if gore had the popular vote. this country is not a country by the people for the people as it should be. ok enough on that...next person.

sycamore-u say sumthin that i hear from a lot of people wen they find out i beleive in anarchy. the fact that it is much worse in other countries. and im gonna say the same thing i tell them. yes i know it is. it is bad here, not quite as bad as other places, but i dont live in other places. i live here. i dont like it here. and i probably wouldnt like it anywhere. i am against all governments everywhere. not just the US. i simply lash out at the US becuz thats where i live and know the most about. i can more easily find flaws in something i know about than wut i dont know about. if i lived in another country i would probably just be doing the same only directing it more toward specifics that happend in that country. but i do get wut ur sayin.

jaguar-thats all they talk about in skool anymore. is how to avoid that stuff. and actually, i think thats part of the reason why theres so much of it. since the skool keeps trying to push it into us, some do it as a deliberate slap in the face just to say well im gonna do it just cuz u said not to.
i know i do sometimes ill admit it...i do a lot. but that really has nuttin to do w/ wut i was even talkin about...so...wutever...lol. next.

undertoad-i respect the fact that maybe yes it is due to my age, i will accept it as possible. it may be, but there is also a big chance that it may not be. we'll hafta see after i move out. (my mom also brings a good point that i think its only cuz of the fact i cant do so much at home. but i dont know...time will only tell lol).

one last thing to hubris boy-im sure u noticed already that i didnt want to send anyone in. i still respect u as a person and the fact that u r a little scared and everything. i dont agree much w/ the stuff u say but i respect u. i hope u dont hafta go in and good luck. i never wanted to do any of that anyway, and for ur info, i do tell people that say we should bomb afganistan to shut the fuck up. even though are reasons for not wanting to send people in may be different, the fact is we both dont want people/u goin in. so, much respect, and if u do hafta go in, good luck.

i guess thats all for now, i dont really think i got a lot more to say unless someone says sumthin that gets me fired up to respond (not necessarily fired up in an angry way, just fired up and feel i should give input).

<B><COLOR=limegreen>so until then, peace everyone and God Bless!</limegreen><B>

<COLOR=deeppink>tattooedmind</COLOR>

<COLOR=crimson>Liberty is the one thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. -William Allen White</COLOR>

Re: in response to everyone...
 

There are a few events in American history where anyone can tell you where he was when he heard. Peral Harbor. Kennedy Assasination. Challenger explosion. WTC destruction. Many events occur in history including the oh so necessary removal of a corrupt Nixon, the assasination of ML King, or even the invasion of Kuwait. These are major events but will not be remembered as the above top 4. The WTC destruction including the murder of 5,000 International citizens is one event that everyone will remember 30 years from now. Even the simultaneous Pentagon attack will not have the same long lasting effect.

Having cited a difference between anarchist and extemist, I did not appreciate the difference. IOW there was a strong dislike of everything - this time without the implied hate - but I did not see how an anarchist's attitude differs from an extemist attitude.

Some of concepts that your fellow anarchists dislike (assuming they and you are in agreement) were listed. But what is it that anarchists want? What is the long term desire or objective? I don't even understand why things would be better - why no bombing and terrorism - if there were anarchy?

*sighs*
tattooed mind i spent a quarter of an hour trying to decipher what you said into something that resembeled the english language in legible form. Then another quarter of an hour trying to make sense of it.

I don't remember, and i read over my post, not to do anything at all. Do us a favour - define the term anarchist a little more throughly, waht do you stnad for, etcetc. Anarchy in its traditional definanition is the lack of anyone have any form of power over anyone else, that is /pure/ anarchy, which of course impossible along with pure free speach and pure freedom of action. My own politics are a mix of libertarian and socialist (yes left and right -wierd eh but i can explain it) so....
damn - gotta go ill finish this when i get home.
\

Re: in response to everyone...
 

These are the definitions of anarchy (from Merriam-Webster online):

<i>1 a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order</i>

So I guess my question is: What do YOU consider anarchy? Anarchy is up there in the annuls with socialism and communism, although anarchy does not conjure up the positivity that the former two tend to bring. (Granted, communism doesn't sound so great now, but the idea itself is noble.) Furthermore, idiots in Seattle and Genoa have tarnished any positive thoughts of anarchy.

Anarchy would work well if you were in a roving nomad tribe or a village of 50. It is highly unlikely that any large country could practice anarchy, socialism, or pure communism. (France probably comes closest, along with the Scandanavian countries.) Hell, for that matter, our own country is not a democracy.

You probably have a long life ahead of you tattooed mind, so rather than dismiss the system so quickly, I would recommend finding a way to best live within the system. Certainly you have a right to feel the way you do, and you may wish to (peacefully) fight the system. It's important to stand up for your beliefs, and I encourage it. So long as you realize that your fight could be in vain. Government as a whole works, and it actually works fairly well.

Not to slag on the younger generation here, but I remember how quickly my world changed when I was out on my own and had bills to pay and had to start working full-time for a living. I still have my fighting spirit (hence why I've been out of work a total of 10 weeks in the past year), but my perspective has definitely changed.

syc I swear we are on the same wavelength on allot of stuff - what I want to know is exactly what he'd prefer to the 'establishment' that I hear such people talk about.

Sure, the system is fucked, there are allot of very, very fucked up things. Read a book called Stark by Ben Elton, very, very funny but highlights allot of these things in a very sobering way. At the same time what are the alternatives. I posted on another thread in currant affairs recently my little summing up of the left and the right. I doubt you want Plato's or Asimov’s dictatorship, so what do you want? I mean its all good to bitch and moan and point out how fucking awful is but if the best solution you can offer is that by somehow ripping everything apart its all going to be fine you have some serious rethinking to do.

You sound rather.....unenlightened about the majority of political theory for the last few hundred years, you seem to see the US of A as the nadir of exploitative capitalism. Which is correct. Which is why I’m moving to Europe. I advise you read some of Marx, in fact I advise you read allot of Marx. Might clear allot of stuff up for you. No I’m not a Marxist his view of history is far to simplistic but there is allot in it.

And yea, syc - u have a point. I’ve come very close to moving out but it’s just impossible to finance properly and stuff at my age...which is a pity coz I’d love my own pad, and so would my girlfriend who I’m very close to. So it’d work well. ;). I'm waiting for a friend to finish uni early next year at which point there'll be a space in the place he's renting with friends that I might be able to take cheap which would rock.

same question
 

I've had the same question since the Battle for Seattle so maybe tatoo can shed some light on where these kids are coming from. I've read up on anarchism a bit and there seems to be two major threads with many sub-threads. The native American types are/were mostly individualistic and mutualistic (utopian communal) both tending towards pascifism, some being very religion oriented and others opposing organized religion. Ben Tucker, Lysander Spooner, Josiah Warren, Ezra Heywood JK Ingalls among many others. European (Russian/German) or left anarchy seems to have been closely aligned with Communism and seems much more violent, although there are questions the Haymarket Bombing seems to have been pinned on them. I believe William McKinleys assassin claimed to be an anarchist. Thats where your Boris and Natasha stereotype fromm bullwinkle comes into play. When the Europeans came to the states they were initially embraced but the philosophical differences between the groups made any long term relationships impossible. oops goota run g

An editorial
 

I found this piece in today's Philadelphia Daily News. Sometimes, I swear the Daily News is meant for people with an IQ below 30. But it's a good piece.

On the page to the left was a condolence statement from the Saudi Arabian embassy in Washington. I don't know if it was meant to be placed by the editorial, but it seems to complement the editorial nicely.