Disillusionment
 

      Disillusionment, I think we've all been there. Someone or something we believe in falls apart and leaves our world view changed, and often embittered.
      On a larger scale a lot of what we are told as kids falls apart. I think the teens tend to be the age most of us go through this. Though, most do stop believing in Santa before that. I look back on that time as being good and developmental. However, I find myself working hard to not set my kids up for the pain of it. Trying to raise them without a lot of illusions to have fall apart, if you will.
      We've all been through it to some degree or another I think. What about you? Thoughts? Experiences?

I think one of the biggest illusions that needs 'dis'ing is that its a bad thing when illusions become disillusions. To state otherwise is analgous to supporting the idea that ignorance is bliss. Disillusionment is one step closer to the idea of enlightenment.

If it truly is an "illusion" then it should be a good thing when it gets "dis"ed.

But I know what you mean and when it does happen (and it has), I'm usually not in any mood to intellectualize it - I'm too busy feeling sorry for myself.

But, I'm a little wiser as a consequence (assuming that I'm not deluding myself). :)

I think what he means is that a lot of heartache and trauma could be solved by simply telling kids the truth in the first place.

Whit probably agrees that learning the truth is good. But why lie to children and put them in a fantasy world, only to crush their dreams later and cause unneccessary psychological damage?

I'm reminded of the fact that people always laugh at children's ignorance. "Ohh, it's so cute! He doesn't understand.. he's a fucking moron.. hah hah hah hah!"

Perhaps that's part of the problem.

Before Sarah was born, my wife and I actually discussed the myth of Santa Claus and whether or not to tell her about it. The idea had really never occured to me. But when Kathy asked me about it, I checked the values that I tell myself I subscribe to, and said in shock, "I can't lie to my kids!" But then she went on about how I'd ruin the fantasy of childhood, and how believing in Santa Claus was one of her (and most people's) best memories. Realizing that she knew a lot more about child-rearing than me, I figured I was probably wrong and consented not to tell. You have to pick your battles, after all, and who wants to be seen as a bitter, crotchedy old man out to ruin a kid's childhood?

Oooh! Oooh! Can I play? Can I play???? ("grouchface" is the preferred name at my house. Now that I think of it, I ought to teach the kids "curmudgeon" and get them to start using that.)

I would have been happy to forgo the whole Santa thing, but Mrs. Dallas kind of insisted. Is this another one of those male/female things??

Re: Disillusionment
 

There is a delicate balance, I think, in protecting children from disallusionment. On the one hand, we want the kids to know the truth and not have to experience the turmoil which can occur when the disillusionment is broken; but on the other hand, one who experiences little disillusionment in their life will likely become cripplingly naive.

As far as disallusionment in my own life, I used to think that thrre was this giant toad lurking under the ocean's dark surface... oh wait, that wasn't me, that was somebody else.

I had a pretty big, life-changing disallusionment many years ago, when I realized that the Mormon belief system is complete bullshit. I had been raised in the church, and had always harbored doubts, but I always gave the church the beneft of the doubt. After a while I found that things about the church came unstitched pretty quickly when you started pulling on loose threads, and my doubts quickly became certainties that the church was no more than a huge machine for the manipulation and control of it's members. And now the church is enormously wealthy, owning most of Salt Lake City, hundreds of buildings in Utah, temples around the world... but despite this huge wealth, they still demand that all memebers pay to the church 10% of every penny they make, whether that person lives in wealth or poverty.

Their flagship song is "We Thank thee O God for a Profit" for Christ's sake.

Now my poor LDS mother has to live with the thought that one of her sons "fell away," and is living it up in the Agnostic/Athiest lifestyle. What a pity. Hi mom!

Tell her about Santa, and the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy and the Sandman ... invent a couple family-based boojums if you want.

Santa's part of the overall cultural experience. She'll be way out of step with her peers if she doesn't know about these guys. Come on ... evan Jewish kids know about Santa. They know he's not coming over, but they know who he is. You don't want Sarah to be an outcast, do you?

You will cherish the final year that the rather mild threat of the naughty list last controls your child's behavior.

You don't have to listen to any of it ... but ask your mom's advice from time to time. It will make her feel good, and you might find some nuggets of wisdom in there that you can make use of. So find out what she thinks about this, and why she told you Santa was real.

I wouldn't NOT tell her about Santa. My initial idea was to tell her about it but say that he didn't exist.

The compromise my wife came up with just the other day (without any mention from me) was some nonsense about Santa Claus being the "spirit" of the original St. Nicholas (who was real). Not sure what I think of that.

I, too, have wondered what I ought to do about the Santa thing when Britt and I have kids. I never believed in Santa as a kid, and you should have seen the fits I'd throw when they'd stick me on the red-suitted man's lap. I didn't want any part of some old, fat, long-bearded, rosy-cheeked, bespectacled, fashion-starved lunatic who smelled like an old ashtray. He and his candy cane could go to fucking H-E-double-hockey-sticks as far as I was concerned.

I just think about a kid, MY kid, asking me, outright, whether Santa was real. I couldn't lie.... at best I could avoid answering, or answer ambiguously, but I know I couldn't lie.

I guess I have a couple years to figure out such details.

You do not want your daughter to be the kid in playschool or kindergarten who ruins christmas/yule for 29 other children.

My parents raised me with no illusions.

They told me that there is no Santa but that we'd like to think that there was one and that he'd bring us gifts. But there is no Santa so they end up buying the gifts themselves....but they wish there was a Santa....

I had no problem with that.

Why not? They still get their presents... and they learn the truth!

Wait... IS this a male/female thing?

If there's no Santa ... why do the presents?

(A Calvinist Christian friend (yes, I have one of these) and I have had a number of discussions related to the upcoming holiday. Not only are the fun traditions pagan (tree, yule log, giftgiving), but strict Christian tradition does not honor the birth of Christ, because this act, God becoming flesh, debased God, and only the redemption of the Crucifixion restored God's purity. He points out that the one of the first things that Cromwell did in the Reformation was to ban Christmas celebrations, and that for a long time 12/25 was just another day in session in the US congress, with the only days off being Sundays, when church services were held in the Capitol building. Now of course it could be the case that he is just cheap and unwilling to give presents, but that's his story and he's sticking to it.)

What?!!!!! there is no santa???!!


and look at how you turned out, you freakin Vulcan :)

kids NEED fantasy.....they LOVE santa.....why deprive them of it? don't you remember the excitement of christmas eve and listening for reindeer on the roof until you finally fell asleep? cmon! you all got over the realization that there was no physical santa. it became a rite of passage, in a sense. "i'm old enough to know about the santa thing...better not tell little sis""

think, juju

I had plenty of fun on christmas. It was still a big game. See I had the tree in my bed room and I tried to stay awake as long as I possibly could so that I could catch my parents in the act of putting the presents under the tree. I admit that I never made it.

I was just as happy to recieve presnts that I knew came from my parents than the other kids who recieve them from santa. In fact I think I might have been happier because I knew that the presents were from my parents not some kind stranger on the north pole.

It made me even happier when I realized that I got a 'better' present than some other kid. He'd say that it was because he must have been bad that year and that Santa wasn't happy with that....of course I told him the cruel truth about the non existance of Santa and the sad fact that him having a crapy present was just the result of his parents not loving him.

I may not have loved Santa but I sure loved my parents...I still love my mom...my father on the other hand is an ass.

you dirty, low down, no good...........crapeater!

d'you get beat up a lot as a kid?

That's an interesting line of thought. I'm not sure which denominations push this one. It's kind of hard to reconcile with a trinitarian conception (pardon the pun) of a divine Jesus.

I'm 6'6" and 240 pounds...

I was always tall and intimidating. I used to play rugby in Australia and in the US the HS football coach said he'd give me $100 if I played the season...I declined cause I hate the football uniforms.

A lot of kids tried to beat me up...as in they never tried it alone. I liked it. The key in fighting multiple people is to keep the rest away from yourself while trying to mess up one of them as much as possible...they see him messed up and will lose all interest in fighting.

None of the fights were related to Santa. Age 5-9 I fought because I openly admited to liking a girl while at that age liking girls is 'uncool'. Anyone who made fun of me or the girl got beat up (badly). There is actualy a semi funny story about this....but thats for another thread. 9-11 I was in Germany with little command of the language, anyone who made fun of my accent or of being Russia or told me to go into the girls bathroom because they claimed it was the boys...got beat up. 12-14 I was in Australia, first people got beat up for making fun of my accent, then I started playing rugby so I had to beat people up for having a ball. 15+ I had few fights because I was in the US and apparently people in the US are pussies. I beat the shit out of a kid for calling me a "retarded masturbating commie homo" everytime he saw me and the next thing I knew my parents were getting called into the school etc. If that happened in Australia people would say "Well DUH. Wtf did you think the guy would do if you called him that?". In the US it's like "OMG!!! He beat the shit out of you and kicked you in the balls?! OMG!!! How terrible!!!" So since I didn't want to deal with the bullshit I stopped beating people up....anywhere near school....and nobody ever gave me shit outside of school.

So in a way I did get 'beat up' a lot but they always got beat up worse. I liked it. Thats what boys are supposed to do as they grow up...prevent other boys from growing up...leaves more girls for us (j/k)

Actually I had quite a bit of respect, although most of the time I felt really insecure and didn't realize that ppl liked me as I was really worried about my origins, my command of the language or the fact that my family never really had that much money.

'Cause, it's fun, and that's the holiday tradition.

DID YOU EVER BEAT UP A LITTLE ITALIAN GUY WITH AMERICAN FLAG SHORTS ON?

Yes, I see the point here. And like I said, I was presented with this same argument by my wife and gave in.

However, try to see both sides of the story.

Kids are naive and largely ignorant of the world around them. Filling their heads with false information does not help this condition. I'm supposed to teach my child, not exacerbate her ignorance. I value knowledge and truth very highly. I want to impart that to my child. To lie is to go in the complete opposite direction. It's directly opposed to my goals of teaching her about the world.

Of course, there are many circumstances where little lies are okay and probably beneficial. But something so vast as the "Santa Claus" fantasy is WAY beyond a small white lie.

Mostly, think of this as an attempt by me to remain reasonably consistent with my principles.

"15+ I had few fights because I was in the US and apparently people in the US are pussies."

Or we're better trained in physics.

Even though a bullet is smaller than a fist it can do more damage because it's faster

Jeez louise..... next you're gonna say you want her to actually LEARN something in school instead of just sitting there and getting gold stars for handing all the work in on time.

My plan is to make sure Jamey knows about Santa, and knows that Mommy and Daddy are the ones who put the presents under the tree. I want him to realise that it's neat to think of Santa, and to enjoy all the stories and traditions. I'll read him stories about Santa, and we will go visit Santa at the mall. Its all make-believe, and he knows make-believe is for fun.

I will also try to instill in him that its okay for his friends and classmates to believe, because it's all part of the fun of Christmas. And if he chooses to believe in Santa, despite my telling him that the gifts come from us, thats cool too, because his imagination should be allowed to be as free as he wants.

What I guess it boils down to, is that I won't lie to him, but I won't squash the childlike wonder that I've worked hard to instill in him. I might be expecting more maturity out of him than he can give, but in the end, as long as he's happy that's whats important.

Hmm... you mean you can really do both?

Assuming you're referring to my post...

Of course you can. Children have wonderful imaginations. When playing Cowboys and Indians as a kid, I never once thought for a moment that I was really either a cowboy or indian. Whats important to me is that my son knows that Santa is not real, but its fun to pretend.

party pooper.

my aunt has a kid thats a year older than my son. they taught him that santa was just made up. he's a dick. rude little bastard. coincidence?

perth, i'm not calling your kid a dick


......but he'd better not be wearing a powder blue cardigan

Did you just call my kid a dick? :)

Yeah, I'm going to teach him that Santa is make-believe, and make-believe is fun. But I will also teach him that its not nice to go telling that to kids who do believe and that its not nice to act smug when you know something someone else doesn't.

I think the myth of Santa helps keeps kids a little innocent for a little bit longer than they would be otherwise.

I don't have children, and more than likely will not, but my nieces are 10, 11, and 12, and there's nothing like the sparkle in their eyes when they lay out cookies for Santa, and carrots for the reindeer.

I can't see what's wrong with letting them have a little bit of fantasy in their lives when they're young enough to enjoy it.

allright, perth....I can respect that. We actually had a tricky minute or two making that decision ourselves.......

.....no blue cardigans, though, ok? promise?

Oh, I forgot about the cookies. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut when he asks...

Just remember to leave some crumbs, and if it snows, go put out some foot prints!

And don't forget the carrots, those reindeer get REALLY tired!

No blue cardigans, I promise. He wears a lot of hockey and football outfits. Seems everyone who meets him wants to buy him an outfit with their favourite team's logo on it. I suspect they're worried that since daddy doesn't like sports, hes gonna grow up queer or something. :rolleyes:

My suggestion that everybody leaves milk & cookies... maybe Santa would enjoy some nachos & beer instead? was met with stern disapproval by Mrs. Dallas, who was backed up 100% by the kids.

I tried.... :blunt:

Ooo I like I like! I think I would have accepted that as a kid..lol! It just sounds cool..."the spirit of Santa"....:D

Plus, there's the issue of all those Santas at the malls, on TV, etc. Ha! :haha:

It is very poetic. On the other hand, I'm an agnostic. So it's still a lie, isn't it?

Perth's make-believe honor-tradition approach kicks some serious ass. I hadn't thought of it quite that way. Let the kid's imagination take the wheel, but only as much as they want it to.

Brilliant.

It really is. Mucho respect perth!

You are a very smart parent. Please adopt me.:)

      Ack... I suddenly realize that I don't know if my six year old daughter believes in santa or not... I know her brother, age 10, hasn't believed in two or three years...

      I did catch my parents putting out the gifts. I was already suspicious, this just confirmed things. I was six though, old enough to realize that the santa tradition might end if everything was out in the open. I spoke with my older brother and he confirmed that santa goes away when the youngest stops believing and threatened me physically to insure the parents didn't find out. I informed him that no threat was necessary. We had santa for a few more years... I think someone eventually asked if I still believed in santa and I answered, "not for years now." Boom, no more santa gifts. Sigh.

Christ, my mother still puts "From Santa" on the tags and the youngest hasn't believed for40 years.
Oh, and I didn't tell him.;)

disillusionment
 

[quote]Originally posted by juju

Of course, there are many circumstances where little lies are okay and probably beneficial. But something so vast as the "Santa Claus" fantasy is WAY beyond a small white lie.



Most kids only play the Santa game until about 6 or 7 at the latest
I know with my two daughters that they grew up so fast believing in Santa was no big deal.its like the tooth fairy novelty soon wears off when the dentist starts fitting braces.
enjoy every moment with your daughter because before you know it the boyfriends will be at the door then you will have greater things to worry about whether you lied about Santa.Besides there is nothing more magical that watching Christmas through your kids eye's when the are at the age when its all new and wonderful.

Re: disillusionment
 

[quote]Originally posted by be-bop

Quote:

Originally posted by juju enjoy every moment with your daughter because before you know it the boyfriends will be at the door

A farmer had identical triplets...they all had their first date on the same night. So, the farmer, being a father of triplets, and very overprotective, waited by the door with his shotgun for the boys to arrive....just to make his position clear.


the 1st boy arrives:

"Hi, my name is Eddie
I'm here for Betty
We're gonna get some spaghetti
Is she ready?

the farmer laughs, eddie and betty leave....

2nd boy arrives:

Hi, my name is Joe
I'm here for Flo
We're gonna see a show
Is she ready to go?

again, the farmer laughs, and the kids leave


the third boy arrives:

"Hi, my name is Chuck
I'm here to....( BANG!! )
The farmer shoots him

What was the third girl's name?

we'll never know...the joke ended

Dolores?

My friend's five year old daughter just drove her three year old sister to tears by threatening her with the "Naughty List."

Amazing. They barely have a grasp of the English Language, but to use it to such effect ...

Like I said, in this particular case, I'm not so much worried about the disillusionment as I am with not straying from my moral system.

Whatever happened to building trust in a relationship?

Relationships DO still have to be built, don't they?

I like perth's approach best. If I could make a list of instructions for my next incarnation's* parents, I'd put that in there.

(*speaking hypothetically, of course.)

My take on Santa Claus
 

I think it's best to allow children to believe until they find out for sure. Then you explain to them that if they think of Santa as a real person with the sleigh and flying reindeer and all, then no, there is no Santa Claus. But if they think of Santa as a concept; a metaphor for the spirit of giving and goodwill, then yes, there IS a Santa. As long as people keep that spirit alive, Santa will live too.

This assumes that the child is capable of thinking on this level, of course.

And then, when they have children, you can tell them about the three stages of Santa...

1) You believe in Santa Claus.
2) You do not believe in Santa Claus.
3) You *are* Santa Claus.

And there you have it!

Brian

Don't forget #4. You look like Santa Claus.:D

Absolutely. My father promised to kick my ass if he was displeased, and I trusted him to keep his word.
Juju, you are in the process of making yourself a raving god damn lunatic. The health and welfare of your daughter does not hinge on Santa Claus or any other single issue so stop over analysing every little thing.
You are a kind and decent person and your daughter will emulate that. The love and hugs and concern for her will mold your relationship more than any conscious decisions about the day to day. I'm sure you'll do a great job.:thumb:

I'm not worried about it at all. Like I said, I already agreed to go with my wife's decision. Or, maybe we'll go with some sort of compromise. I'm sure we'll go with the flow. I know it will turn out okay regardless of the direction we go.

This sort of stuff MUST be overanalysed, though. If we don't think about this stuff, then we're basically just flying blind when it comes to the morals we're teaching our kids.

This thread is an intellectual and moral exercise. I'm an introspective person. Introspective folk like me are of the belief that you can't overanalyse anything. It's just how we grow as people.

The Santa thing is just <i>one</i> example of many other potential lying situations. Thinking this through means I will be more centered when other similar situations (that one can't plan for) come up.

When the ones you can't plan for come up you'll go with gut feeling which is dictated by who you are and your core beliefs. Then you can beat yourself up afterward.:)

Yeah, but I'm constantly thinking about, challenging, and researching who I am and what my core beliefs are. :)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Speaking from my own experience, raising a kid is easy. You just have to remember that kids learn by example. No matter what you tell them they'll base their own choices off the examples of your action. For me what has been really amazing is the boy. As I'm not his father by blood and he had several bad examples he had been following before I was in his life. Since I've been in his life more and more he's begun following mine. The change is amazing.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On a related note, the Santa thing is easy, a footnote really. When it gets tough is when a kid you have no rights to (because he's technically not yours) starts asking to be allowed to move in with you. His mom doesn't know he's talking asking about it, that's a landmine I'm waiting to have go boom on me.

Re: Disillusionment
 

So, what kind of illusions are you referring to here?

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Well, take the happy ending idea. Most of kids are raised watching Disney movies and similar stuff. The ending is always happy whether a happy ending was earned or not. The little mermaid for example, in the original story she lost her soul. Disney rewrote it of course. So it went from being a cautionary tale of being a disobedient child to a tale that teaches disobedience as a way to become happy. The idea that everything simply works out is crap. It has to be earned, but that's not what kids are taught by TV and movies.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now I'm the first to say that it's the parents job to nut up and raise their kids instead of putting them in front of the tv. Still, there's no getting past the influence of TV and movies unless you throw away your TV and homeschool the kids. I hope this makes sense. I'm running a fever so I'm not sure...

Still? Do you think it might be the flu?

fucking disney movies......i like the grim fairy tales better......much gorrier

dave would like to point out that this is not a word.