Liberating them against their will.
 

Wolfovich went to Iraq to show how Iraq is getting better. He slept in the safest place in all Iraq - and still got attacked. A few more Americans were killed. But daily American deaths are to be expected. They were not acceptable nor predicted when George Jr said this Peral Harbor type invasion would not even cost us money. Some even foolishly believed the lies about aluminum tubes.

Ironic that a State Department one year study predicted everything so accurately. Defense Dept learned about the study about 1 month before the invasion and tried to hire its authors - when some senior Defense Department official learned what they had concluded and had the hirings quashed. Something about not hiring people who did not agree with a preconceived conclusion.

Heaven forbid should we know back then that every month the violence would only increase AND extremists from throughout the Muslim world would join in the attacks.

Tonight on PBS Newhour, reporters in Iraq talk about the body parts and hundreds of wounded throughout todays Baghdad bombings. So who does the Iraqi 'man in the street blame'? Anything American. Those reporters said they barely got out alive counting 27 bricks that struck their windshield alone.

Back at the Al Rashid hotel, the reporter went back up where those rockets were launched 400 yards away from Wolfovich only the night previously. In what is suppose to be the safest zone in Iraq, America still did not have enough troops to patrol that last night launch location. A report starkly similar to news reports from VietNam when another president also lied repeatedly. Reporters back then noted how America just did not have enough people to even protect the most secure locations. How the terrorist could launch attacks at will no matter how many ways the American government twisted the truth - the famous 5 o'clock follies.

Today's 5 bombings should have been six. But one car bomb failed to explode. A Syrian was captured. Is Syria now a terrorist nation? Extremists who lied about WMD and advocated an unauthorized war would blame Syria. We should now invade Syria? And yet what did that State Departement study conclude? As Americans stayed to enforce American doctrine, and worse if with too few troops, then extremists throughout the Muslim world would converge on Iraq to kill Americans.

Remember when Americans were so highly regarded througout the world? Then we elected a mental midget president supported by a cast of right wing religious extremists. The Economist notes the problem and why it becomes more easy to recruit terrorist to attack Americans in Iraq:
Turkey and Jordan have long been some of America's strongest friends among Muslim nations. Even there, George Jr has made you person non-grata.

Three Americans died in the Gaza strip. Why? Was it a coincidence that the Security Council by a wide margin demanded that Israel stop stealing Arab land using a fence (that would put 80% of Palestinians inside Israel). Only an enemy of Arabs - George Jr - used the American veto. George Jr is not an honest broker and hates Arabs - no matter what his right wing rhetoric says. Actions - that veto - says more to all Muslims and Arabs. Thanks to George Jr, extremists are finding it easy to recruit.

That veto again only said to the Arab and Muslim world that America hates them. And so attacks will only continue - Americans will die daily in increasing numbers - until we finally remove an enemy of humanity - George Jr. A man who could not even tell the truth about some aluminum tubes. The man that the Norwegian foreign minister said would undermine the Oslo Accords.

One thing to note, when foriegners attack Americans, they are called 'Terrorists,' yet when Americans attack foriegners, they are called a 'crack team.'

It strikes me as a matter of having a better publicist.

I would rather masturbate with a cheese grater than have GWB as my leader.

Unfortunately, I've found blood and skin to be difficult to clean from those hand-crank graters, so I guess I'll just have to stick it out for a while yet.



Pardon the insensitivity, but isn't it good that Shrubbie's fucking it up? If, say, he barely scraped along, did stupid shit but then covered it up decently because it wasn't too significant, wouldn't that be worse? The way I see it, every American death that makes it to the mass media is another checkmark against him being reelected.

It strikes me as the difference between intentionally killing schoolchildren and an errant bomb being dropped accidentally on a wedding.

tw's too far gone on this to even respond to. He's impossible to talk politics with, but he's pretty decent when it comes to tech stuff. I'll stick to that.

      Yeah, I'd say this is going to far. And I can't stand Bush.
      I do think that the Arab world will take the veto as proof that Bush personaly hates them, but I don't buy it. Simple following of logic, Bush wants power and money, doesn't really care about the cost to others, he has more to gain this way. A lot of lobbyists will be paying for that veto for awhile yet. I don't think he hates Arabs or Muslims. That would be giving him more credit than I do. I think he's either too short sighted to see the long term or he just doesn't care.
      It would be good that Bush is so far out if it weren't for the number of people that will vote republican to vote republican. Let's face it, the democrats haven't been offering anything of value of late. I'll be voting against Bush myself, but I have little to no hope of voting for someone I want.

      Sidenote to TW: Going on and on about the tubes so often is just coming across as being bitchy now. Let it go. There's way to much other stuff of import to still be focusing on that.

In my humble opinion that is akin to comparing children sneaking cookies with teens stealing cars...its a matter of working within your means.

Yes, plenty of car bombs. Lots of primitive weapons. Numerous cheap shots. But when faced with a superior force occupying YOUR home, what would you do?

What a great analogy. How about this, then: the difference between accidentally dropping a vase on the concrete floor and grabbing someone's priceless vase and smashing it on said concrete floor.

The difference is <b>intent</b>. If the US military were massacring citizens intentionally, then perhaps you would have a point. (Hint: they're not, and you don't.)

Your absolutely right. The difference is intent. The GWB war machine intends to enforce its will upon a nation that does not want it there. This is not a new phenomenon...ask anyone of Irish background, and you will get a definite perspective.

When a nation is liberated, there is gratitude. People shaking soldiers hands, kissing them in the street. Not trying to kill them in their sleep.

This, unfortunately is not a matter that can be debated from afar. I am not Iraqi. I did not have to live under Sadam's regime. However I do watch the Machine trample heedlessly like a bully taking a joke too far then shrugging off the blame, "what, what? What did I do wrong?"

Now conversely, Sadam Hussien was a criminal. He needed to be removed from power, WOMD or not. Nepotism was rampant and its effects dangerous. I mean really the whole bloody family was just sick.

I do not have a better solution, luckily I don't need to offer one. I'm a graphic designer, not a political analyst or military consultant. However it does not take a rocket scientist to tell which way the wind is blowing.

We can stop right there. Some citizens do, some don't. How about we have them vote on it and see?

I'm sure Saddam would have allowed them that same freedom too.

Now let me ask you honestly, would you rather have GWB as a total dictator or as a democratic president whose power is at least partially checked by both the court system and Congress?

Some will always support a theocracy or a dictatorship, because it's in their best interests. It doesn't make it right.

Many people in Iraq <b>are</b> gracious. Our own Tobiasly served in Iraq this year, and is now (thankfully) (mostly) safe in Kuwait. He can tell you about their gratitude first-hand.

Unfortunately, the very vocal minority shouts louder than the rest. Of course there are people killing US soldiers in Iraq, just as there are people within the United States that support its violent overthrow. That doesn't mean that the majority of either countries is vehemently anti-US. It just means that some are.

(I don't know what's right with Iraq; I personally did not support the war, though I wasn't against it either. I was on the fence. I haven't been convinced of WMD yet, but I am convinced that Iraq will be better off now that they are free from a dictator. What freedom-loving person can honestly say that giving a repressed people a choice is a bad thing?)

OK, listen. I'm only 14 *cough, cough* but when my bus driver turns on NPR on the bus, everyone stops and listens to how many American soldiers have died. A lot of the kids in my school have parents who are in Iraq right now. They are scared out of their minds that the mailman will bring bad news. I do not have any parents in the army, but I wish for my friends' sakes that Mr. Bush would take the soldeirs out of Iraq. The Iraqi people were not bothering anybody. Lots of money this costs. And then Mr. Bush wonders why we are in a reccesion! But I am only a Jr. High student. There is nothing I can do :confused:
I don't understand why the soldiers are in Iraq (truthfully). Yeah, they are bad people, blah, blah, blah. We're redeeming the Iraqis blah, blah, blah. But seriously....

Ignoring the polls that tell us that the great majority of Iraqis ARE happy and ARE liberated and that this is what they wanted?

No offence, but I REALLY don't get what this means.

I too wish a safe return for those serving. I cannot fathom the pain in waiting for a loved one to return. And having a choice is a wonderful thing, compared to no choice at all. Now they have their choice...however it was reached. What I do not understand is how the compromise can be reached without letting them figure it out for themselves. Dealing with a different culture stuck in a different mindset from a location remote, dressed in fatigues and carrying weapons is bound to give animosity. I have seen the pictures of the delighted Iraqi children receiving handfuls of ballpoint pens from soldiers, and yes, I think that is remarkable. Something so simple making such an impact...but if simple things change their lives so much, then what are the huge steps going to do to them? There is so much work ahead, and it has to be carefully approached to avoid causing greater problems. Yes, choice is good, but are we prepared to oversee such choices being made without calling the reactionaries ungrateful?

The people serving in Iraq are to be comended, their job is not an easy one. I just wish I could support their being there as much as I wish their safe return.


And with that, I must return to my lurking. Again, I must reiterate that my lack of support for the war itself does not interfere with my support for the men and women who are there trying there best to fix a terrible situation.

Yeah. I agree. Um...it kind of took me 20 tries and a dictionary to understand what you were saying, Mr. Michael. But your right. I'm glad someone else is praying for a safe return of our soldiers. :)

And therein lies the heart and purpose of the original post. There is 'no' plan that will bring them home. There is opposition to every plan presented by the world (UN) to solve the problem. There is no US exit strategy. As the commander of the 101st noted, there is not even representation by the Bremmer committee outside of Baghdad - how many months later? No plan. No civilian government. Just a Baghdad bureacracy.

There is no plan for an Iraqi government. There is no trust in the people who knew how to make Saddam's Iraq work (even WWII allies trusted Nazis party members to get the phones and electricity working again). There was a vast mismanagement when the first months were so important.

The honeymoon is over folks. We did not get the electricty on and did not get the government going. Now it is the turn of terrorists - better known as religious liberators. We had our chance to earn their trust. Now we have a simmering pot. Now we have occupied a country with no exit strategy and still no long term plan to get the country running itself. Every terrorist bomb will now be blamed on the Americans - because the honeymoon is over. That is how nation building works (something that George Jr does not believe in).

Those aluminum tubes are 'posterboy' important because of the source who provided that information. Eliminate those same spin doctor news sources that also promoted the aluminum tubes, and we don't have a good situation. Instead, we have a very volatile situation that could go either way. Some here still post what those spin doctors say. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice....?"

If one thinks repeated references to those aluminum tubes are being bitchy, then they miss the point. Those aluminum tubes were promoted by the same spin doctors that say all is proceding well in Iraq. Eliminate the propaganda, and what is left is a program for Iraq that is stumbling; lacks direction; failed to recruit (or trust) Iraqis; should have maintained, retrained, and utilized Iraq's army; still has no plans for a civilian government, does not have a solution even to the massive, unprotected sources of ammunition spread all over the country; and cannot even find Saddam!

American popularity is not just falling all over the world. Popluarity is probably at the best it is ever going to be in Iraq - if things keep being this volatile. And we have yet to see Shites join the fray. Terroism south of Baghdad will mean things have gone real bad. Therein lies a benchmark. Where terrorist strike is another measure of how good or bad things have become.

"Joe number one". That was what the president's loyalist would have us believe during VietNam. After all, that is what the little kids were saying - just before they grew up and joined the VietCong. Its called propaganda. Better measure of American popularity is found in what reporters confront in the streets. And they are saying security is faltering through central Iraq.

A plan is needed. That means the micro-management George Jr administration must conceded power to the world. It is the exit strategy to get out of this quagmire since this administrtion has no long term plan, no exit strategy, and will not even admit the mess they got us into.

If one believes Iraq had aluminum tubes, then one should be questioning their sources - those spin doctors. Those same people are the only ones saying everything in Iraq is going just fine - according to plan. What plan? Others are reporting a situation that is not getting better and not getting worse. This is bad news for a nation builder.

What plan? What timetable? That is what reporters asked today in the Rose Garden. The best they could get from George Jr was that he would not answer that second question because it was a trick question. We have neither a plan, nor a timetable, nor an exit strategy. We have a quagmire that could go either way. And those bombings only make things worse - for George Jr's Americans.

What are reporters in the street being told? Under Saddam, the electricity was restored in one month; not six. Under Saddam, there were no terrorist bombings.

Exactly what the war mongers were saying in 1965. Exact quote if we change Iraq to VietNam! Are we doomed to repeat the lessons of history? We were so sure that they loved us because we were giving them free speech and no dictator. And they kept saying in the streets, "Joe number one".

What were we suppose to have learned from VietNam? That what you think they want is not what they want. In VietNam, they told us repeatedly how they loved having the Americans there. Then when they got together in secret, they said dfiferently what they really wanted.

That reality was expressed in one of those VietNam movies - Platoon or Full Metal Jacket - a scene in the bathhouse that apparently was totally lost on Dave.

They don't want free speech or no Saddam. That was secondary. They want the electricity to work, bombings to not happen, and jobs. Unemplyment is still rampant - unlike the days of Saddam. Take away the rhetoric of Iraqi dissidents, and you have a completely different 'want' from those people. Stop trying to put an American bias on what they want.

Saddam was not 'that' bad for most Iraqis. They did not like him, but they really would not risk anything to remove him - because they did not hate Saddam 'that' much. Saddam was bad, but not that bad as George Jr would have us believe.

Dave needs to get that bias out of his thinking to understand the volatility of Iraq. He is using an American perspective. Wrong. To understand what they want, he must use an Iraqi perspective. Currently Dave is thinking as the ill-informed were thinking in 1965. I know. I was one of those who believe those lies - mostly because we could not get an honest story. Dave should have an advantage - the lessons of VietNam. And yet Dave is rationalizing just as America's domestic enemies rationalized all through the Johnson and Nixon administrations.

People did not miss free speech in Iraq. But they now miss the security, jobs, and government services that were provided by Saddam. Free speech and freedom is not number one on their lists. A smiling American soldier does not mean all is OK. Things could go either way. And that is what reporters in-country are reporting - as some were reporting in mid 1960 VietNam.

Back then, many called the NY Times a communist newspaper because it was but the few who actually reported accurately about VietNam. Today, read the details - which means readers of the Daily News or Fox News will not get sufficient information. Those details are really where the actual mindset in Iraq is found.

"Not that bad"

Imagine what tw must be paying attention to, and how much he must be filtering out, to come out with a statement like that.

Now consider the rest of his statements with that filter on.

What was the title of your post, tw? "Killing their electricity against their will?" Uh, no. It was liberation. So I talk liberation, and you go, "that's not it. Their electricity doesn't work." Okay.

I'm not going to bother, because you're just going to change whatever we're talking about so you can pretend to make me look like a tool. Yeah, whatever. Let's stick to electronics.

I guess I didn't tell you guys.. my battalion is being sent back north into Iraq. We will be about 50 km south of Baghdad, not quite the fiercest part of the fight, but not quite as safe as Tallil either.

No internet either, so you prolly won't hear from me for a while. I'll try to take some more first-hand pictures for everyone.

We'll be up there until early January. We were supposed to be coming home in mid-November, but now they're keeping pretty much all Guard and Reserve units 365 days in theater, as opposed to 365 days total mobilization. Luckily it only took us a month to mobilize, and we were fairly close to home; some units took 4 or 6 months to mob, and they were halfway across the country.

Our only hope is that the administrative people who issue the extension orders will not get ours put out in time, in which case we will come home in mid-Nov. as originally planned!

As far as the person on the street in Iraq, there are all kinds. Some will indeed approach you, shake your hand, and thank you; others will give you cold stares as you drive by. But for the most part, people want to raise their family and be left alone. Usually they understand if we come in and search their homes, it is for everyone's benefit. The little things we do to help -- give their sick child medical care, give water and MREs to a hungry bedouin -- go a long way to increasing goodwill.

I disagree with that. If you complain about the situation, but don't offer a better solution, you are just increasing the noise level.

Of course they know which way the wind is blowing. Things are getting worse, and they are trying to fix it. Simply pulling everyone out because people are dying and families miss the soldiers is not the answer. I'd rather stay here a little longer and help be part of the solution instead of pulling everyone out, creating a power vacuum to let the next mass-murdering fundamentalist zealot take over.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tob, stay as safe as possible dude. Hope to hear from you soon.

I bet this is the argument a lot of people who were against abolishing slavery must have made. "A lot of masters are nice to their slaves. They give them a place to live, food and water... sure, a few masters beat, rape, torture and kill their negroes, but so what? Most of them are just fine. Slaves don't want to be free; they just want the security that a good master gives them."

Tobe, you are SO the man, it just isn't funny any more.

I'm sick of the talking heads trying to spin it all when you're the one out there trying to make the world a better place. I'm sick of the talking heads trying to spin you without even bothering to ask your opinion.

I was reading recently about all the post-war troubles in Germany in 1946, and don't you know, things were actually worse there and then, and some people wanted to just walk away. We stayed instead, and made the world a better place. Only then was it safe to return to the isolation America always wants to enjoy.

Thanks, I appreciate it. We'll still be here for another week or so.

My biggest hero in all of this is my wife. We were married for 4 months before I left, and now we'll be apart for 12. Yet she still supports me in all of this, and as difficult as it is to be apart for the holidays, she will carry on. All while being a full-time student, doing her nursing job, and taking care of a house for the first time in her life.

A lot of soldiers' wives give them ultimatums.. "choose me or the military". But I know Elizabeth would never do that, as much as she would like to. I almost wish she would, because it would make my choice of whether to stay in after I get back much easier.

Anyhoo, not trying to hijack the thread (big loss, I know), I'd just like to share that.

Slaves, for the most part, wanted their freedom. They did not want their freedom because northerners assumed they must want freedom. Iraqis, for the most part, did not want to be invaded by Americans. But Dave says they wanted to be liberated only because he assumes they 'must' want to be liberated. Dave's bias proves nothing. Which is why the 'slave argument' is irrelevant.

If Iraqis so hated Saddam, then where were the millions celebrating liberation in the streets? If Iraqis so hated Saddam, then Saddam could not hide in Iraq. Those are facts not from Dave's biases. Outside of some holligans, there was little celebration because Iraqis were not ready to be liberated. Dave assumed they wanted Saddam out only because he rationalizes they 'must' want Saddam out and they 'must' want freedom of speech.
.

Bottom line is that Iraqis more want what they once had under Saddam. Security, jobs, and basic services are more important to Iraqis than freedom of speech and no Saddam in their text books. And what did we not provide? Electricty for up to 6 months. Jobs for unemployed army troops - who could have been providing the security and restoring basic services. And security. As far as Iraqis are concerned, each bombing is just another reason to blame Americans.

Tonight on PBS Newshour, what does every Iraqi say they want? Number one want in Iraq is "Security". What did America not provide for half a year in Iraq? Security. Too few troops. No plans. Then we made it even worse by disbanning all soldiers and police. Now Iraqis are suffering from something that they never knew - *kidnappings*. One family has lost both kids for a second time in three months! Kidnapping never happened in Iraq until the Americans liberated crime! It does not matter what Dave thinks. This is want Iraqis see. They don't like what America has forced on them.

How many major crime cops are in Baghdad? 42. Only forty two for a city the size of LA; swamped in major crime. Even worse, they can't recruit more cops. Only recently were they able to recruit most of the cops they have. Iraqis did not trust Americans who did not even provide security. Reporters from all news services are reporting same. Even kidnapping is all but legal because there is no law enforcement - thanks to Americans.

One American checkpoint recently found a car containing kidnapped kids and returned them home. That family that lost their kids again - the kids escaped their kidnappers the first time. No law enforcement provided assistance.

More than freedom to speak - they want security and jobs. They first want what Saddam provided them. That means a volatile, simmering pot. Many more guard and reserves will be called up and sent to Iraq. It is why Tobiasly cannot come home. We have the mess that a year long State Dept study predicted.

Tobiasly is going right where Iraq could change. If that Shite region of Najaf and Karabala were to follow what Shite religious leaders are calling for, then that region also could get hot. Currently the region south of Baghdad has been extremely tranquile and calm. Should that change, then America has serious trouble in Iraq.

Hope the best for Tobiasly. He is probably going where the future of Iraq may be decided. He may know long before any of us which way the winds will bow. Should the Shities rise up like the Sunnis are starting, then it will be bad news for Tobiasly - and us.

$40,000 per Iraqi to liberate people who did not want to be liberated. It is why Saddam cannot be found. A nation must be long beyond wanting to be liberated before it is safe to liberate. Did we not learn from Somolia?

Tobiasly - keep your eyes open. If correct, you may be deployed quite close to the famous and historic city of Babylon. Once the capital of the Mesopotamian Empire.

tw, you really must see some of this "torture tape" video to see the regime you're defending.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/30/in...partner=GOOGLE

They don't celebrate in the streets because they fear he could return to power and torture them and their families, and basically take everything from them.

They don't yet trust that Americans have their best interests in mind, or that this democracy thing will take hold. Of course, these are valid concerns, especially since we stopped short last time. I pray we don't make that same mistake twice, and it seems GWB has no intention of doing so. I'm very thankful for that.

You sure seem to know a lot about what Iraqis want. Where exactly do you get this information?

I will be a little east of Karbala, but I don't know how that corresponds to exactly where Babylon was. I am hoping to see some interesting sights and take some pictures if I get the chance.

There was a rather large ziggurat pretty close to us when I was at Tallil Airfield (near Nasiriyah); unfortunately they closed the road to it shortly after I arrived.

East of Karbala would be the province of Babil and probably on the banks of the Eurphrates River. Maybe in An Hindiyah? I vaguely recall some serious bridge combat in that town maybe involving the 7th Cav. Somewhere in that area is a major pipeline that feed the Persian Gulf. Babylon would be due south maybe 10 to 20 klicks near a town now called An Hillah.

Another interesting local geography would be what was called the Karbala gap - west of Karbala. Apparently a wonderfully executed manuever by the 3rd ID between Karbala and a large lake. Even today, details remain sketchy. How the terrain contributed to the plan would be interesting. This was the manuever that broke the Iraqi's last line of defense with virtually no American losses.

Meanwhile he completely glided past Tob's question...smooth.