The Cellar

The Cellar (http://cellar.org/index.php)
-   Current Events (http://cellar.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   It was either here, or in Technology (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=4095)

Elspode 10-08-2003 09:40 PM

It was either here, or in Technology
 
Interesting article regarding a possible link between naval sonar and aquatic mammal strandings and deaths...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ce_dolphins_dc

Pretty freaky, huh?

Beestie 10-09-2003 08:57 AM

Maybe they could just change the wavelength to one outside of the "problem range" for these animals.

I wonder what those pings sound like to whales that could make them want to get the hell out of there so fast.

OnyxCougar 10-09-2003 09:31 AM

I'm not an activist or anything, or against technology, but this just makes me sad.

Our technology is causing serious damage to the environment again, but the article doesn't mention anything about what they are doing to change the way they use sonar or develop other systems. Just, "yeah, it's widely accepted that our sonar harms the cetaceans, and now we have evidence that says it actually gives them the bends. That's too bad."

Military superiority is always more important than innocent lives.

Beestie 10-09-2003 10:15 AM

Quote:

Our technology is causing serious damage to the environment
True but the problem (technology) is also the solution. I'd say its not so much technology - little more than a powerful tool - but human nature that causes environmental damage.

It always gets back to having to compete with those who have less regard for the rules than you do. :(

[edited to fix grammatical error - content unchanged]

DNK 10-09-2003 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
Military superiority is always more important than innocent lives.


Military superiority also protects innocent lives.



GBA

DNK

juju 10-09-2003 12:23 PM

Perhaps the sonar interferes with their natural navigation methods?

Elspode 10-09-2003 01:28 PM

I would assume that the frequencies being used have been carefully chosen for the desired application, and are probably therefore the best for the usage intended. It is unlikely that Navy brass would accept any changes that would degrade the performance of their systems.

The factors involved are both the range of frequencies being used, and the intensity of the sound. You have to make a really, really loud noise in many cases to make sonar do what you want.

Beestie 10-09-2003 07:11 PM

Looks like Elspode is on the money .

Quote:

...the Navy conducted an intense active sonar exercise... emitting high-energy, mid frequency sonar at between 215 and 235dB... Sound at 235dB produces a pressure wave 300,000 times more intense than an 180dB sound, and 100 billion times more intense than a 120dB sound, which is like a loud motorboat engine.
Quote:

..."the killing is largely due to injurious resonance phenomena created by the U.S. Naval sonar system in the whales' cranial airspaces, tearing apart delicate tissues around the brains and ears."
Now I understand why the animals are bolting to the surface with such reckless abandon. Gotta be a better way to do this. Why can't they use radar or something???

Griff 10-10-2003 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DNK

Military superiority also protects innocent lives.

That is an urban legend.

Pie 10-10-2003 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beestie
Now I understand why the animals are bolting to the surface with such reckless abandon. Gotta be a better way to do this. Why can't they use radar or something???

Radar frequencies won't propagate under water.

- Pie

xoxoxoBruce 10-10-2003 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff


That is an urban legend.

How can you say that? Without a strong military those damn Canadians would be on us in a heartbeat.;)

Griff 10-10-2003 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pie



Radar frequencies won't propagate under water.

- Pie

Did you mean, "Radar's frequency doesn't propagate anywhere."

slang 10-10-2003 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff
anywhere *."

* - cept slang's feeble mind. :D

Beestie 10-13-2003 01:50 PM

Well I'll be damned - check this out:

Navy to Limit Deployment of Low Frequency Sonar

Good work, people! :D

OnyxCougar 10-13-2003 03:40 PM

Well, it's a good start, but so is 1 million lawyers drowning in the ocean.

Reorder a few paragraphs from that article:


Quote:

Surette said that there is no scientific support to the charge that low-frequency sonar will harm sea creatures and that the Navy spent $10 million to do an environmental impact assessment that found in its favor. But other researchers have concluded that high-powered sonar can and does cause marine mammals to beach themselves and die.

In particular, Surette said, the Navy wants to see the law clarified regarding what constitutes "harassment" of whales, dolphins and porpoises, and how many of them can be inadvertently killed without breaking environmental laws.

Oh yeah, he sure cares about the cetaceans. We can tell. Prolly sends em a can of tuna for Christmas. Jerk.

OnyxCougar 11-10-2003 09:45 AM

Newest Article.
 
Quote:

From Yahoo
U.S. Looks to Use Low-Frequency Sonar

By PEGGY ANDERSEN, Associated Press Writer

SEATTLE - The sound was picked up by underwater microphones: a blasting shriek every 25 seconds or so.

About the same time, 20 killer whales that had been quietly feeding in Haro Strait became agitated. As many as 100 porpoises leaped through the water, apparently panicked.

"They were all going the same direction, and they all looked like they were getting out of there," said Tom McMillen, owner of Salish Sea Charters, who was in the waterway between Victoria, British Columbia, and Washington state's San Juan Islands that day in May.

The Navy later confirmed that the guided-missile destroyer USS Shoup had been training in the area using mid-range sonar, which emits signals at a frequency range that includes human speech and industrial whistles.

Mid-range sonar has been used in some form since World War II, although it's not known how whales responded to those early systems. People were less aware of such problems and the systems were used for deep-sea Cold War surveillance, far from public view.

The Navy and the National Marine Fisheries Service, however, have linked mid-range sonar to the deaths of seven whales in the Bahamas in 2000. Tests are still being conducted on 13 porpoises found dead around the time of the Haro Strait incident.

Environmental activists worry that the effects of low-frequency sonar, which came into use about 10 years ago, could be more widespread. They challenged its use by suing successfully in federal court, prompting Navy agreement to peacetime restrictions.

While court approval of those restrictions is pending, the Pentagon (news - web sites) is asking Congress for a broad range of exemptions from federal environmental law, including the Marine Mammal Protection Act.

For an environmental impact statement, the Navy has conducted only limited scientific studies on the effect of low-frequency sonar on marine life.

Navy Vice Adm. Charles W. Moore Jr. told a Senate subcommittee in July that "there is no evidence of any negative impact on marine mammals in the single ocean area" where tests of low-frequency sonar are being conducted.

Low-frequency sonar can send signals hundreds of miles in water before it dissipates. Operating at a range that includes higher-frequency thunder and some whale communication, it is felt, more than heard, by humans.

When the Navy tested the system off California in 1994, it could be heard on underwater mikes in Alaska and Japan. The system could transform the acoustic landscape into a jumble of signals in the range used by whales to navigate, search for food and find mates, environmental advocates say.

Environmentalists became aware of the system in 1994, when it was being tested around the world and in U.S. coastal areas.

"It soon became clear the Navy had been conducting tests of the system for a number of years without any kind of environmental review," said Michael Jasny of the Natural Resources Defense Council.

The case raises an interesting question: How can the environmental impacts of defense systems under development be evaluated when they are usually classified — and thus hidden from the scrutiny of those whose priority is the natural world?

Jasny contends that classifying defense information as secret or top secret only aggravates a problem common to governmental agencies: Programs are planned and resources committed before the environment is considered. If review occurs, it happens when development is under way.

"That kind of back-end analysis tends to make for bad environmental planning," he said. Add classification, "which essentially shields the Navy from much of the public scrutiny that other agencies receive," and the problem worsens.

A Pentagon spokesman refutes Jasny's contention that the environment gets short shrift when new defense systems are in the planning and development stage.

"Throughout all stages of their development, trials and operational use," Navy systems are subject to the appropriate environmental review, said Lt. Cmdr. Cappy Surette.

But the defense council questions the effectiveness of such reviews.

"It just doesn't do much because there's no effective oversight," said Joel Reynolds, another spokesman.

The National Marine Fisheries Service issued the Navy a five-year permit last year for use of low-frequency sonar, allowing deployment over 75 percent of the world's oceans.

After environmentalists challenged the permit, U.S. Magistrate Judge Elizabeth LaPorte in San Francisco ruled it illegal, a decision finalized in August. She acknowledged the compelling public interest in ensuring the military can detect hostile submarines, but said peacetime Navy testing should be limited to low-risk areas with few marine mammals and endangered species.

The parties agreed to an area along the east coast of Asia, with seasonal restrictions to protect whale migrations. The restrictions would not apply in wartime.

"This agreement safeguards both marine life and national security," Reynolds said. "It will prevent the needless injury, harassment and death of countless whales, porpoises and fish, and yet allow the Navy to do what is necessary to defend our country."

LaPorte signed a permanent injunction Oct. 14.

The Navy had been braced for the worst since earlier this year when LaPorte set similar, temporary limits.

"The court's opinion underscores shortcomings in the MMPA (Marine Mammal Protection Act) that apply to any worldwide military readiness activity," Moore told the Senate subcommittee.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:00 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.