Another positive step by my native state into the modern age...
 

In case you didn't know, I'm originally from Missouri.

Missouri is the one of the last holdouts when it comes to guns--the state doesn't allow people to carry concealed weapons. It was a ballot proposition in 1999, and lost by a narrow margin--mainly due to the heavy "no" vote in St. Louis City and County (which contain about 25% of the state's population).

All that changes October 11th. The Missouri legislature has narrowly overrode a veto by Gov. Bob Holden to pass a bill "directing county sheriffs to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons to residents who meet certain requirements".

I haven't been keeping up with the news back home recently--this issue has been talked about for months, but I can't believe they actually passed it.

I haven't read the real nitty gritty on it, other than what the St. Louis Post-Dispatch has written. But it's definitely a good thing--particularly in St. Louis City. I think it will make things safer, and perhaps encourage more people to move to my native city--which has been losing population since the 1930s. Although initially, I sense it will spark some racial tensions. Hopefully, that will be just a mere concern in my own head.

And it gives people one less thing to make fun of when it comes to Missouri...just one though. There are still plenty of other things--though Missouri is nowhere near as bad as, say, Arkansas. ;)

I'm just now beginning the shopping process for an affordable, compact, concealable and easily-packed piece, and I would appreciate suggestions and/or links to a suitable daily carry weapon.

The thing about concealed carry is that people are doing it anyway...and they are largely the people that we non-criminals need to protect ourselves against. Laws making concealed-carry illegal only restrain the law-abiding from packing, not the bad guys.

I am not a gun nut. I am a long time resident of a city which I have watched become increasingly violent and crime-ridden over the past 30 years of my adulthood. I no longer feel safe in the formerly bucolic suburb in which I live. My children have been attacked and threatened, my sister was pistol whipped in her own front yard some years ago (the same house in which I now live), my posessions have been stolen from my property and my vehicle, my son's apartment was burglarized this past Spring (while he slept in his own bed!), and I have felt personally unsafe when walking the streets of both Grandview and Kansas City.

I will soon be packing, and I will take training to learn appropriate use (even though I've been shooting since I was young, I don't do it frequently enough to be comfortable about concealed carry and self-defense at present without some training).

It is a good thing for Missouri and for honest, law-abiding citizens in Missouri.

What you get is going to depend on what you're going to use it for. Obviously for daily concealed carry you're going to want something that won't show too badly under your clothing (which is in part a function of the type of holster you get).

You probably know by know that my first suggestion would be a Glock, but I know that not everybody likes combat tupperware.

About how much do you want to spend?

It sure can be. You'll also have to think long and hard how you might use a firearm in a variety of given situations too though.

Here in Pa., a handgun is only to be used in denfense of your own life. I think they missed the boat on this one though as there are several tangent possibilities. Let me explain.

I have often said that carrying a handgun is beneficial to the society as a whole, much to the astonishment of non-gunners. Think about a handgun as a tool instead an instrument of death and you might see my point. Just because a person has a gun doesnt mean someone will die or even be injured in a confrontation. If a handgun is a tool, then it may be used for something other than killing someone. Firing a handgun into the air or into the ground in a life or death situation can be an overwhelming *distraction*. It may give someone time to run, break a perp's concentration or just scare the shit out of someone out of control, thus diffusing a potentially deadly situation, while at the same time demonstrating that you are in fact armed and the gun is in fact loaded. It also gets a lot of attention from bystanders and the police will surely be called. People are conditioned to think you must shoot someone or shoot at them for a handgun to be effective. This is not true as the majority of confrontations with guns in the hands of citizens are rarely fired. In this way, having the people armed is a benefit to all of us.

Another is the fear factor. Lots of people are just plain fearful. Allowing them their 2a rights gives them a bit of security. Rightly or wrongly many white people are fearful of urban blacks. This fear is obvious to anyone paying attention and IMO plays a major part in people getting attacked/mugged. If you have some protection, a handgun concealed, then people arent nearly as intimidating and they may even actually warm up to you. I have been the only white guy in sight in many occassions. Non-whites in these cases see that I am not fearful of them and we get along just fine. The handgun is a security device for my own mind. It alows me to hang out with all types of people without shitting my rural drawers.

The last example I have is one of being a witness. How many cases are unsolved because no one was watching an act of violence or too scared to testify in court? My guess is many. If *I* see something suspicious, I'll look into it. I may only pass by but I know if the shit hits the fan and someone shoots at me I can shoot back. In this way I am not as easily intimidated and can witness whats going on. Some guys are acting shifty down the block, I can sit on someone's front step and watch them watching me. They know I can see them and I have some interest in watching them, they'll probably move on. And I didnt even draw my gun! It works! Having and carrying a concealed handgun encourages good citizenship!

So, I'm very happy for Missouri and it's residents. Crime will soon be on the decline, peoples of all races can mingle without fear (founded or unfounded) and people will feel empowered by their newfound 2a rights!

OK, so I know I'm over the top here but hey, I havent posted in a while.

Applause, applause.:thumb:

Oh...Sig Sauer P230SL.

Glock 21, Glock 21, Glock 21!

Poor, poor, poor...that's me! Please indicate expected price ranges for suggested concealables. I'm pretty sure I want a semi-auto, not a wheelgun, because they tend to give you more shots in a smaller package. Caliber? Well, .22 is out, but I'm open to suggestions about other bores.

Slangster! Great to see you back!

Heh. The 21 is about $550. It's a full size .45 with a ten round mag. You don't actually want to be carrying it. I was kidding. :)

(But it makes a goodie for defending the home! Or totally destroying just about anything.)

Glocks run around $500ish new, you can get factory refurbished for around $475 (these are police department turn-ins that have had all the powdered sugar and coffee blown out of 'em and are completely rebuilt). Frankly, my recommendation remains to go with something like the Glock ... for reliabilty you really can't fault 'em, and I think it's worth the little bit of extra bucks (so says the woman who gets drool on the H&Ks every time she's in the store, even given that you can buy two Glocks for every H&K you take home).

Caliber is a tricky issue. Convential wisdom of course says that bigger is better, but if the gun is too big to easily conceal ... well, as the saying goes, a .32 in the pocket beats a .45 in the drawer at home.

I happen to like the .40, personally, midway between a 9mm and a .45, readily available (unlike the 10mm, which you have a bitch of a time finding ammo for). There have been a lot of studies on what are called "one shot stops" and the .40 does a lot better than a 9mm and only slightly less well than a .45, based on data collected from the streets, rather than just lab test of distance of penetration in gelatin.

It's also of a middling price to shoot in terms of ammo cost. Something in a 9mm would probably do you nicely. Anything smaller than that has a side-issue of sometimes bouncing off of heavy canvas or leather clothing.

Take a peek at Kel-Tec. They have a small frame 9mm that a lot of people really like. I don't have a P-11 myself, but they are purported to be very reliable and accurate. Store prices for new weapons are LOWER than the prices specified on the company website. (I have gotten Kel-Tec products for at least $50 lower than the prices they show.) Also, Kel-Tec's customer service is excellent. The P3AT is brand new, and they are having some "issues" which are being quickly resolved.

Before buying anything though, try it out. Most ranges that are associated with gunshops have a rental case ... try before you buy.

Fair warning ... they ARE like potato chips.

If you are just looking for a home defense weapon, rather than something to carry, go for a shotgun. Heck, go for a shotgun anyway. You can buy them at flea markets pretty cheap. Think of the pistol in the nightstand as a means of getting to the shotgun in a home defense situation. Oh, and get a pump rather than a break-open ... two reasons, one is that you'll have more shells available to you, and two, nothing says "you're fucked" to a burglar like hearing that (*chick-chunk*) sound in the total quiet of a darkened house.

(Gun control laws are like OSHA for criminals...)

I remember thinking that the Glock safety mechanism is kind of minimal? Would you carry it without a chambered round?

It's not minimal. You can't shoot a Glock unless you grip the handle and pull the trigger, period. Yes, there is no external safety. But you shouldn't be pointing a gun at something you don't intend to destroy anyway.

Does that include when it's holstered and pointing at your nads?

It's not going to go off when it's holstered. If you're holding it, hand around the grip, finger on the trigger and pointed at your nads, then you are a dumb mother fucker.

Glocks don't have an external safety. Okay. But if you could somehow suspend the gun in mid-air and just pull the trigger (without gripping the gun), it wouldn't go off. If you held it by the barrel and then pushed the trigger with your finger, it wouldn't go off. For it to go off, you have to intend for it to go off.

Idiots can manage nearly anything. Not saying anyone here is an idiot, just making a general observation. Then again maybe I'm wrong, having hardly any experience with hand guns, let along any with a Glock, it's very likely an idiot couldn't fire it without having a hand around the grip.

Not even a genius could do it unless they had disassembled the gun and removed all safety functionality. Glocks actually have <b>three</b> different safety functions built in (as opposed to the <b>one</b> that many guns have). Read up about 'em. It's not getting fired unless you want it to.

If I understand correctly, the Glock has a handle squeeze safety mechanism? Cool. Less shit to think about under pressure.

I still don't buy it. I still think bearing concealed handguns is not a stabilizing force. I know you could shoot off your nads or the nads of an innocent bystander if you just applied yourself.

Remember: "Baby" is a tool, only. ;)

I got an email at work mentioning the change in Missouri carry laws and reminding employees that the permit is not valid on company property.

I just got an email from a friend that works at Jefferson Hospital. In his words he made "one or two little jokes about 9mm and the US acceptance of the metric system or 9mm and administrative reorganization" and he's now on administrative leave pending a report from a shrink and a therapist.
Take heed kiddies, the world has no sense of humor when it comes to guns. :(

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The only time I've ever been bothered at the idea of someone having a gun was when a woman, that was on medication (both legal and illegal), walked in on a gun discussion and said she was going to get one. Politely one of the guys asked what kind of gun she intended to get, her reply was, "35 mm". We looked at each other for a minute, well a couple of us may have chuckled a bit. Finally the guy asks, "You mean a camera?" She say, "No, a gun, a 35mm."
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I really hope she never got a gun...

Nope. The glock does NOT have a grip safety (that's the kind that requires that you be squeezing the grip with sufficient pressure to disable a safety interlock.

When people talk about there being no "external safety" on a Glock, that just means that there is not a separate safety switch on the weapon that needs to be disabled in order for it to fire.

The three Glock Safeties are ...

The firing pin safety (mechanically prevents the firing pin from moving forward and striking the primer of a round unless the trigger is engaged)

The drop safety (Glocks can be dropped from a great height and will not fire. This is a problem with many guns. It was one of the design requirements of the German Army for whom the Glock was originally designed. Prior to bidding this military contract, Glock did NOT make firearms. They made shovels, knives, and other amazing doo-dads out of plastics. Their 17th product was the first Glock pistol, and this is why the first 9mm Full Size Glock was designated the Glock-17, in case you were wondering. The Glock-18 is one that you will rarely see in this country ... it's the one with the selective fire switch. A full auto pistol, yes indeedy! Uses a 30 round magazine. The Glock you saw in Terminator 3 was a representation of an actual production weapon, not mere Hollywood fakery.)

The trigger safety (this is a little lever on the trigger itself that is depressed along with the trigger when you fire the pistol. if you attempt to activate the trigger without having this lever also depressed, the gun won't fire. Yes, I have tested this — it's recommended as part of cleaning/PM. It really, really works.)

Basically, as with any firearm, you oughtn't be pointing it at anything you don't want to put a hole through.

Although they have developed a "reputation" Glocks are actually a lot safer with respect to accidental discharges than a lot of other firearms. It's not unusual to carry a Glock with a chambered round, meaning, all you need to do is draw and fire, without having to first rack the slide to chamber a round.

You can check out the information on the Glock website.

Technically I would think that it's valid, it's just against company policy ... any business can establish codes of behavior/conduct for it's at-will or contracted employees. Violation of those policies may include termination, of course.

Retail sales locations and other businesses may make restrictions regarding concealed carry on their premises, however, what's often misunderstood is that unless you do something further to violate a law (like refusing to leave the premises if it's discovered that you're carrying so that you are then trespassing) you can't be charged with anything.

Some types of businesses are covered by state or federal statutes that restrict concealed carry. Carrying in such locations (courthouses, schools, federal property (i.e., the post office and federal parks), and in some states businesses which sell alcohol for consumption on the premises) can result in criminal charges.

True enough, Wolf. I believe the new Missouri statute prohibits carry inside schools, churches, college campuses, and a bunch of other select locations, unless you are a duly licensed officer of the law.

Not sure of the exact limitations, but I know there are some.

Kennesaw, GA, is a unique town. They have an ordinance which requires that the head of every household own a firearm. (there is information about this on the town's own website (http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/History.aspx)

The crime rate is significantly lower than other towns in the same county.

http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/PoliceDepa...tatistics.aspx

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Am...e_plummets.htm

The experience of most communities with shall issue concealed carry laws has been a reduction in crime rates.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Minnesota and now Missouri.

Yes, I was abbreviating.;)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Abbreviating? Why? Late for a hot date? Hope you've learned your lesson.

Even gangbangers doing "waistband carry" with cheap-shit guns rarely blow their own nads off. It's really not going to happen unless you were already working on qualifying for a Darwin Award.

I'm so ashamed.:blush:

Are you sure that wasn't the French Army?;)

If you dont carry one in the pipe, leave it home. Do you feel more comfortable with the notion that you might accidentally fire it (in the holster this is next to impossible) or that you are in a crisis where you dont have the *ability* or time to rack the slide ?

When drawing your Glock from the holster, keep your trigger finger *outside* of the trigger well. You'll be fine.

And if you're not playing "badass" by looking at it or showing off, it's perfecdtly safe in the holster.

Good call Dave. I'd only suggest the mini-model (G30) for everyday carry. It has a ten shot clip too and if you feel like the world may explode in chaos during you outting you can bring some extra clips, they're only 22 bucks and can fit 5 or 6 in a belly pack.

Yes that's true. It's also the point. Having those among other options lets you control the situation.
It's not unusual to have doubts about what's unfamiliar.
There will always be stupid people that will hurt themselves and others, but they will do that with or without a gun. It's the people who prey on others that have to worry, because they don't know who is capable of defending themselves and who is not. Just the possibility of concealed carry protects many people that would never own a gun.:cool:

I personaly have a Glock 23 , mid sized , .40cal 165gr Federal Hydro-shocks . I looked at lots of holsters and i like the fobus line , cheap in price , strong in construction, good value for the buck.
My advice is to go to a gun show , look at and feel EVERY mid to small hand gun . Autos are preferable but they can jam , revolvers come in MANY different flavors , and are simple to operate , now they only hold so much ammo (5-6-8 rounds) .
And unless you think you are going to get into a movie style fire fight 5-6 rounds should do .
Awhile back S+W came out with a knock off of my Glock , a local dealer was selling them for sub $300 after taxes I thought "hell Carol (my wife ) might like one of those" . We went down to look at them , she liked it but it was awkward in her hand , we looked at the Lady Smith ( designed for a ladys hand ) still funny in her hand , we went thru MANY different models and makes , untill one fit her hand , the salesman said "pull the slide back " she struggled and struggled , he said " lets go look at revolvers .
The first one she picked up was a S+W 649 , .357 no hammer . She said this is it !!! so we got it and went to an indoor range . The first 5 shots at 25yards were in a fist sized group on a man sized sillouette target . I thought begginers luck , but no she can put 5 rounds rapid fire in a fist sized group any where on that target she wants , and Carol doesn't shoot much at all . That goes to show you how important feel is . Yes the sigs and HKs will feel killer in your hand , but they will also kill your wallet . Torus makes some nice revolvers and autos that are lower dollar but still good fire arms . Good luck and good :rattat:

CCW in MO was supposed to go into effect yesterday, but was temporarily blocked by a St. Louis judge. An appeal is now before the MO Supreme Court.

Damnit, I knew some folks in St. Louis would try to fuck this up.

The latest update

The outcome of this is going to be interesting, to say the least. The judge's point for blocking CC in Missouri is that it is against the state constitution. However, the constitution of MO says pretty clearly that the Legislature gets to decide...and they did.

Sounds like a weak argument from anti-gunners in denial about the true nature of the CC issue. But then again, what the hell do I know.

I'm going to move this discussion over to the Politics thread, where I've included some more links...and I SO want to hear what Radar has to say about it.