Christians and Pagans
 

I know that on another thread, there's a fairly involved discussion going on about Wicca, Christianity, and Paganism. I thought that perhaps this would be a better place for that discussion (Besides, I keep losing it in the IOTD/Doodads threads *G*)

I have a friend who is a Wiccan and she also calls herself a witch. When I asked her what a witch was, she sent the following to me. Perhaps it can help BUGZ figure out her own definition of the word.

--
I am a witch.
I do not worship Satan; I am not interested in Satan. Satan was invented by the Christians. Satanism is a form of Christianity.
I am not a Christian.
I don't go to church on Sunday.Jesus is NOT my savior. He was simply a holy man who lived 2,000 years ago.
I am not afraid of going to Hell because I don't believe in Hell any more than I believe in Satan. I believe in reincarnation; that I will come back to this world oranother and live out another life.
I am not evil. Telling people I am a "good witch" or asking me if I am a good witch implies that there are evil witches.
There are evil people in the world, and there are people who chose to work with the forces of nature in a way that harms others; those people are NOT witches.
The central law of being a witch is:"if it harms none, do as you will."
Please don't ask me about sacrificing cats or desecrating churches. I love my cats. And I don't go into churches or synagogues unless a friend from that religion invites me to some special occasion.
And if I DO enter a church, I am not struck by lightning.
And if a Christian or a Jew or a Buddhist came to a pagan ritual, our gods would not strike them dead either.
Isn't that something to think about?
Wearing a pentacle is no different than wearing a cross, crucifix, or Star of David.
If you want me to take off the symbol of MY religion (and Wicca is a religion, protected by the same First Amendment rights as other
religions) because it's offensive, you need to make everyone of every religion do that.
The five points of the star signify the four elements of Earth, Air,
Fire and Water, and the fifth point is Spirit; encircled by the World.
How that can offend anyone boggles my little pagan mind. An image of a tortured, dying man is more offensive, yet thousands of people openly wear crucifixes every day.
Also, don't ask me if I'm in a "coven" in that half-horrified, half-fascinated tone of voice. If I want to talk about my coven, I will bring it up. If I am a solitary practitioner, I have no coven to discuss.
In any case, our rituals have candles, food, drink, poetry, dancing...yes, there is a knife but it only cuts the air, not anyone's flesh.
I don't drink blood. I am not some kind of vampire. I wear black because it keeps negativity away and because it looks better on me than orange and purple polka dots.
If you want to ask me something related to MY religion, ask me when the next full moon is. Or the next blue moon. Or what a blue moon IS. Ask me about herbs. Crystals. Healing. Even ask me to make you a love potion. But I don't cast spells on other people and I won't cast a spell on you to make you prettier, thinner, more desirable. And I won't cast a spell on your quarry to make him/her love you. Trust me, you don't want that, you don't want the karma that involves, and neither do I! That's a form of manipulation, taking away someone's power, infringing on their free will. Not nice at all.
And I also won't cast a binding spell to make someone STOP doing
something to you. Spell work is about co-creation. A witch works with universal energy, With the gods, to tilt the engine of probability somewhat.
Need money? Don't try to ensorcel your boss to give you a raise.
Simply ask the universe to increase the flow of abundance in your
direction. That infringes on NO ONE's free will.
One last thing: giving me a book about the Burning Times is like giving a book on the Holocaust to a Jewish person. It's not funny and is rude.
Yes, I do go to Salem, but not because any of those poor executed people were witches, (I think the jury is still out on some of them), but because there's cool pagan shops there.
If there were cool pagan shops in a town called East Cowflop, I'd go there.
Please don't try to make me ashamed of who I worship and what I am. Please don't try to convert me or "save" me. Don't throw holy water on me. Don't leave little pamphlets on my desk or windshield.
I don't need to be saved.
Witches are proud of the fact that we don't recruit people to become witches. We simply ARE, and those around us see how we think, how we act, and our inner peace, and only when someone says "how do I become a witch?" do we take them into the fold with us.
I will NEVER leave a religious tract with anyone. I don't have one, unless you count this letter. And I am not asking you to convert.
I am only asking you to understand. If you don't want to understand, just leave me alone.


NOTE (I do not know the original source of this, and did not write it. But I'm willing to talk about it!)

Dagney

So, according to her, Wiccans/witches are like the metaphysical equivalent of hackers - decent people, bad PR.

Meh. I reiterate my original position - I believe in God, you don't. Okay. I'm no apostle, I'm not going to try and convert you, I haven't felt an urge to do so. The way I see it, we'll find out who had the better hand sooner or later.

Thanks Dagney for the post. Your friend, although she may not be the author of the piece, seems to be a "good" witch like Els. Everything there has basically been reiterated by Els in our conversation. Of course, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I'll ask him to read this and give his opinion and see if we could shift our conversation over to this thread:)

This particular piece has made the rounds for awhile, and it is essentially correct (or rather, I should say that it is essentially applicable to my particular path). I would only disagree with the part that says:

"There are evil people in the world, and there are people who chose to work with the forces of nature in a way that harms others; those people are NOT witches.
The central law of being a witch is:'if it harms none, do as you will.' "

There are people who are indeed witches, but who do not follow the Wiccan Rede, which is "And it harm none, do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.", which is essentially the same as that which is quoted by the writer. However, saying that those who do not follow the Rede are not witches is presumptuous and incorrect. As I stated before in the thread over in Quality Images, not all witches are Wiccan, in much the same way that not all Christians are, say, Baptist.

Saying that an evil person who uses the forces of nature to do bad stuff is not a witch is simply untrue. They are probably not a *Wiccan* witch, but a witch they may indeed be. They just aren't a witch like me, or like the writer of the piece, and they aren't a witch whose methods and practices would fit within my ethics and morals. That, however, does not give me the right to say that they aren't a true witch, because they are...they're just not a Wiccan witch.

The rest of the stuff is pretty much right on, from the point of view of the path which I follow. Others may have varying opinions.

Els, what is the Wiccan Rede? A Wiccan "bible" for lack of a better term?

I understand, as we have discussed this before. Thanks Els:)

PS--don't forget to post those pics, and BTY, why do you refer to them as "graven" images/objects? Sounds kinda scary, like death or having to do w/ dying.

Graven as in engraved, not in the grave.:cool:

The Wiccan Rede is a "code of ethics" of sorts for Wiccans. A link to one can be found Here

Graven images for Wiccans are the same as those for Christians You know, from the Ten Commandments ("Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.") It's an image of something that we hold 'holy'.

And if you ask nicely, I'm sure a few others who may have Pagan or Wiccan beliefs may offer their own opinions.

Dagney

Perhaps you should not try to read so much into what others have to say to you.

I meant no insult by my phrase "ask nicely". It's MY "style" of interacting with people.

There are those of us who come off as being "argumentative, rude, or just plain bitchy" (Traits I'm not sure I'd be proud of)
And there are those of us who truly believe that you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. I'm one of those people, who try to be more friendly than bitchy. Trust me, if I was being bitchy, you'd _know_ it.

Seeing that you've made the assumption that there are a number of people here who have made an attempt to 'attack' you in some way, shape or form, I'd say it's more than likely not us....

But that's just MY opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

No, not witches, ENGLISH.:p Look it up.

I find that people who are new to the internet often have problems interpreting moods and intent behind the written word. Lots of times, one sentence or phrase can be interpreted five or six different ways. It takes practice to work around this, but I'm sure you'll get it in time. But don't worry... we <i>all</i> went through this phase.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Heh, hey Bruce, how does it feel to know that your basic knowledge is meaningless without someone else's okay? Don't worry Juju seems to think you'll get it in time.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dagney, thanks for piece and the link. Also thanks for opening this discussion up a bit. I didn't realize that the Cellar had such a high Wiccan population.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Onyx, if I may ask a very personal question, why did you leave your coven? I realize it's kind of rude to ask but I was curious. If you don't want to talk about it feel free to ignore me or tell me where to go. Sorry if it's to personnal.

I take it back. Bruce will <i>always</i> need someone to hold his hand. :)

Yow! I didn't realize I was an authority (and let's just clear something up, here...I am *not* an authority on *anything*, I just have opinions, and I am sometimes able to describe and discuss things with which I am familiar).

LBZ, "graven" means carved, engraved, that sort of thing (Bruce, as usual, was correct. Bruce is a smart and much-experienced feller, it seems to me). This particular usage has nothing to do with death (unless, of course, you happen to have a graven image of Kali or something...).

I like to use the term "graven image" when I refer to all the little statues and representations of deities that we collect because, well, The Ten Commandments describes them that way, and I like to be as concise as possible when breaking the Commandments I don't agree with.

Onyx, I'd be real interested in hearing why you became a Solitary as well, if it isn't too personal or painful. My wife and I have had three major coven breakups in six years (our home is our Covenstead, and she is the HPS), and I'm always keen to hear other people's experiences. I like to think that I can always learn more about my path and the dynamics of covencraft.

As for the graven images, well...go here, http://www.lunalushede.org/Covenstead/Index.htm
and you can see some shots taken in our ritual room. Things like the altar (the dresser covered with a yellow towel, which doubles as our Eastern corner due to a lack of space) will probably look very familiar to Onyx, as it is a fairly standard setup for Wiccans.

These pics will give you an idea of what we have put together as our ritual area. The red, blue and green covered tables are all appointed with things appropriate to the elements represented - Fire, Water and Earth, respectively. The yellow represents Air. You'll see our apothecary (giant spice rack, basically) which contains all of our herbs and such, you'll see the two pics showing our collection of "graven images", and you'll see a lot of artwork of naked and nearly naked women.

This is a quick and dirty slideshow...I didn't do *anything* to gussy it up, but it helps to explain some of what we have been discussing. Enjoy.

No...that couldn't be. A sweet lovable person like you.:eek:

As much as I value and respect Juju's opinion, I'll always be a clueless hick among the so-fist-a-cats.
Maybe some nice lady would take me under her wing and tutor me in the ways of the wicked world.:(

Thanks for the tour of your Coven, Spode. Nice collection of DoDa...er...graven images. Are these old pictures? I don't see your newer/est treasure.:)

Is "wing" the new-fangled term for those?

hehehe, you may want to talk to Brian about that :)

*adjusting her halo*

But I'm like a Mama Bear...I'm sweet and loveable, till you mess with me or the ones I care about :)

Dagney

For the record, I was referring to lovebugz in my first post, and was only kidding in my second post. :)

Juju, I knew that. Just ignore the helicopters.

Wolf, You've got me all wrong. I'm just trying to be congenial and helpful to poor lost souls. Sort of a father..well grandfather figure.:blunt:

Ok, good. :)

Most of the pics are older, yes. We have yet to find an appropriate place for the new altarpiece. As you can see, the room is quite full at present. Witches are horrendous accumulators of 'stuff'...

Yeah, I imagine when 3/4 (or more) of the things you ever see can have some significance to the craft, it accumulates big time.;)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cool, thanks Onyx. I actually had wondered if you had left due to the 'shop around' thing you had mentioned. Thanks for the clarification.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Okay, question for all you Wiccans. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now, if I understand correctly, balance is a very important issue to you. If there is a universal balance wouldn't your 'increase in abundance' mean that someone else would recieve less? Am I right in the idea that Balance is a major point? If so do you believe in 'Universal balance'? My understanding is likely skewed here which is why I wanted to ask.

The short answer, Whit, is 'yes'. In order for us to increase our own abundance, it does have to reduce abundance elsewhere.

This all part of the ethical dilemma inherent to the "harm none" aspect of our path. It is, in fact, impossible to do something without affecting something else. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

However, it is safe to assume (or so I hope) that abundance exists in excess somewhere else, and so asking for a bit more is a reasonable thing.

Abundance is relative, and the distribution thereof is not really up to the person asking for more. If it exists somewhere and the universe wants you have more, then you'll get it. If not, it won't come to you, because the nature of the spell (asking, rather than demanding) does not wrest abundance to you from somewhere else, it simply redirects the natural flow so it eddies a bit more in your direction.

Sounds like all your asking for is a more equitable distribution.:)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Interesting. I find I really like the soft approach in use here. I also really like the willingness to accept it if it doesn't come. Seems realistic to me.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Question: you say "universe wants" do you mean Goddess/God or are you refering to some natural balancing that doesn't actually have a mind per se, just evening things like a scale does. In natural response to weight?

Sounds like communism...bastard pagans!

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Nah Syc, in Bruces post 'Equitable' means 'I'll get mine'. Which, unless you're a politician, or the good friend of one, isn't Communism. Not in the real world anyway. Kinda capitalistic actually...

I was referring to the concept as a whole, not Bruce's comment in particular.

Not like Christianity is any better...they're like conservative extremists...bastard Christians!

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh c'mon Syc, just Juju out on us completely here and say, "Batard Religious People!" You know you want to...

Nah, I'll one up that...

All of those involved in organized forms of worship must be eradicated from the face of the earth.

How's that? :D

Goshes golly guys, I just wanted Bill Gates to send Syc a check. A large check.:p

Seriously there's no harm in hoping (praying) that the people with excess wealth decide to distribute some of it, in a way that benefits ones self. Your not wishing any ill on anybody or trying to deprive them of what's rightfully theirs.:)

I think vaccinating third world children is much more important than giving me money...not that I would refuse it though.

I think it's important to give back if you have the means to do so. But that's just me personally...these days, it seems expected--almost demanded, really--from the wealthy.

Whew! Thank all that is holy that Paganism can in no way be described as organized! Guess us Wiccans are safe... :p

From my point of view, the it is the latter. There is a natural balance and order to things (although I cannot completely discount the possibility of an order of intelligence operating somewhere within the grand scheme of things...an order of which our own minds are a part, but of which we are not overtly aware).

Since we are a part of all that there is, then our actions (say, an abundance spell) are also a part of the natural order, and we are just trying to bring abundance to ourselves via natural methods, with an equitable and balanced result.

Learning...
 

Els..

I was wondering, I've got a bunch of questions about Wicca and the Celtic Paths. If I got them together, and posted them here, would you be willing to discuss them?

Dagney

I would be happy to answer any and all questions. If I don't know the answer (or have an opinion that *sounds* like an answer), I'll say "I dunno"...

Break the list up into small parts for my small mind and short attention span, though.;)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Okay Ep, so if our minds are part of the order and requesting the abundance is natural... So, is nature pushing our buttons to make us take a balancing action? That borders on predestination. Or would we be enjoying abundance like a wolf enjoying deer overpopulation and thus bringing things back to balance only to risk hunger next year?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I know this is getting pretty deep in, but I'm much more interested in the psychology than the trapings of any given religion, philosophy or belief system.

Maybe if LOVEBUGZ deletes enough posts, then later on she'll actually be able to convince people that she is a victim.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Don't know what you're talking about Juju. Hey I was just going over the thread and I've become a bit concearned. Dagney seems to be talking to herself. Also, your initial post makes no sense whatsoever in context and I just realized that I jumped Bruce's ass about needing verification for no reason whatsoever. Go figure. Strange thread...

Perhaps if I delete <i>my</i> posts whenever I make myself look like a fool, then people won't think I'm a fool?

I seem to do that a lot lately. I blame it on HIPAA implementation.

Either that, or I'm finally losing what little grasp on reality I DO have :whofart:

As with all spellwork, asking for more abundance requires intent. I mean, you could stand by and do nothing and let the universe take you where it will.

The analogy of being in the ocean comes to mind. You can float and wait for the tides to hopefully land you on that distant island, or you can swim and get yourself there.

As to the deer/wolf analogy, if there are too many deer, then there will be more wolves. If they then overfeed, there will be both fewer deer and fewer wolves, and a balance will be once again achieved. All of this is a process, not a goal unto itself. It is part of the ebb and flow.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've been meaning to ask you witches, do you really weigh the same as a duck? (If you don't get the reference let it slide)

It's a fair cop...

By the By
 

Hope you had a Blessed Mabon Elspode and OnyxCougar (and anyone else who may follow that path but I just don't know it!).

Care to share how you celebrated? I've been doing a little bit of 'book research' on the day, but would like to hear what a practitioner thinks of it.

Dagney
(who is really looking for it to be 5pm ASAP, with a cold beer, and something a little bit stiffer....Stoli perhaps?)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hey Dagney, while we're waiting for one of them to show up and share with us, how 'bout some outsider info? I've never even heard of it.

I'll dig out my info when I'm at home this evening, I'm currently doing research on Mabon as well as Samhain. (Although I'll probably not be able to celebrate either this year :\)

Luna Lushede Coven held our Mabon celebration at the park right down the street, providing a great deal of amusement for the twenty or so people who were playing softball nearby. We had 42 in attendance, a pretty good average for this particular Sabbat.

While we have our normal coven Full Moon and New Moon Esbats every month privately, our Sabbats are always open to the public, held in a public place (because our house is nowhere near big enough), and pretty much indistinguishable from your average Baptist church outing, except for the robes, standing in a large circle, and....okay, it isn't at all like a Baptist outing, except that we have a potluck afterward. Except for on Mabon.

A few years ago, we decided that Mabon should be a time for us to share the bounty of the harvest with a needy Pagan family or individual in our community, so instead of having a ritual and a feast afterward, we ask people to bring nonperishable food and other items to donate, and the cash donations we usually collect are also given directly and totally to the beneficiary (this money is normally used strictly to finance the rituals themselves as we buy the main dish, and provide all plates, cups, ice, plasticware, napkins and hall rental where applicable-we are a non-profit organization in the State of Missouri, and no, that doesn't mean we don't pay normal taxes...we do, lots of them).

This year, our beneficiary was an individual who has been out of work for over a year, and was in imminent danger of losing his home. Happily, he started a new job last month, and things were looking up, but he still needed the $85.00 we collected, as well as the entire back-end of the Explorer load of grocery items. He was very grateful, and once again, we feel like we've done a good Mabon deed.

Our ritual at this time of year honors the God, who has 'died' and begun his journey to the Underworld. We offer thanks for the bounty of the second harvest (the fruit harvest, as it were) and for all the good things we have enjoyed throughout the last turning of The Wheel. In years past, we have placed bird seed in our cauldron upon the altar, and attendees come up, take a handful, and meditate upon the bounty they've received in the past year, then cast the seed to the Earth, asking for blessings for the coming year, symbolically sharing their bounty with the Earth and its creatures.

This year, we did something different. I bought a buttload of cornstalks, and we piled them up inside the circle. We asked everyone to spiral in, hand-in-hand, pick up a stalk, then place it against the tree that was at the center of our ritual space. As they did so, they said aloud the things they were thankful for in the past year, and their hopes for the coming year. In this way, we pool our energies and share our blessings, leaving the stalks gathered together as a symbol of unity and good will.

We also dedicated two coveners and another community member to the Wiccan path. We do a lot of these dedications throughout the year during sabbats. Dedication simply means that you vow to study and follow the Wiccan path for a year and a day. It is not a lifetime committment, but it is the first step for those wishing to make Wicca their paths, so it is kind of cool. We also provide a white cord for each new dedicant to wear on their ritual garb.

It was a very good ritual, despite the fact that our socialization afterward was cut short by a rainstorm.

We have quite a few people who attend our open rituals regularly (we have had as many as 70-75 at Samhain and Yule celebrations), and we also had several new faces this time around. We've gotten several comments about how nice the proceedings were, and that makes us feel pretty good. People have a need to come together with a common bond, and even though many of our attendees paths vary a bit, we still unify for Sabbats as one group, united in acknowledging the Goddess, the God, and the turning of The Wheel.

Not a bad way to spend an afternoon, if I do say so myself.

But why not?

A few reasons..

1. I don't feel like I know 'enough' to do it right (and I don't want to offend anyOne)

2. I'm moving home to live with my "VERY" religious Mother who would have yet another episode needing me to take her to the ER if she found out I was considering Wicca to be my primary faith rather than the 'hybrid' religion I follow now. (A blend of Wicca and Christianity)

3. I'm extremely stressed with the Implementation of HIPAA which has my brain so scrambled and my energies so disorganized, I think I may do more harm than good.

Dagney

Holy shit! Have you contacted the landlord to verify all this? Maybe the stuff can still be redeemed.

Losing magickal items *and* musical items is too damn much to bear, IMHO. I'd be equally pissed if I lost either my athame or my guitar. Okay, more pissed about the guitar, 'cause it was stupid expensive, but you know what I mean.

I know I don't need to tell you this, but you don't need anything to celebrate the Sabbat other than yourself, your mind and your spirit.

Happy Mabon, OC...you have reason to rejoice...and you can tell him I said so!

Aw, shucks. State of mind is really important in ritual, 'tis true. Glad yours is improved.

May the ex-roomie learn the lessons which he needs to learn...and soon.