Before you spend your tax-relief check from the IRS...
 

...you might want to take a look at this article.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...754516,00.html

What's the old saying about "If something looks too good to be true...?"

jeff. just for reference, and so I don't have to hear 4,182 people every day saying "So, how are YOU spending your refund check?"

But they're basing this (the refund) on 2000 info, and it's supposed to be a "relief" backed to the beginning of this year.

And furthermore, according to this IRS letter I got, this is only the beginning of the tax relief! ;)

We pay some of the world's lowest taxes. And yet spin doctors call it relief? It's bribery. When they control the purse strings and can raid the treasury to buy votes - good idea? We haven't even paid off the debt yet. The military is screaming for money. This week, the Bush administration is claiming that Social Security is in trouble - but he has plenty of money to buy popularity? Does he think we are as intelligent as him?

thats right keep growing the State, whats the worst thing that could happen?
 

You know you're driving me nuts here!

You are correct about the debt but that should be solved from the spending side. Republicans bribe us with our own money, while Democrats bribe us with our neighbors money, which is more cynical? Remember that every tax dollar is taken under the threat of violence. I understand that my view is definitely in the minority in this age where the upper and middle classes hide assetts so their parents can go on medicare, where middle class kids look to the state for their education, where businesses look to the government to control competition and subsidize their every move, where state governments build ballparks and where the Federal government "invests" retirement money in government debt while spending the tax receipts... even Paddy Moynihan knows SS is screwed even if state radi...or rather NPR and its listeners haven't figured that out yet. As always, one mans emotional response. Good to hear from you again, Griff

As I understand it, the refund is supposed to cover the additional tax paid from Jan 1, 2001 to July 1, 2001 (when the withholding tables were adjusted). Hiding this fact on the 1040 is of course a PR move.

And Tom may be paying some of the world's lowest taxes, but if he is he's not in my demographic group (upper-middle-class single renters).

Well, there's a basic truth here that bears repeating: not all taxes are bad, not all government programs are wastes of money, and not all political decisions are made specifically to screw the little people. (The charges are accurate in some cases, but some would have you believe that every tax dollar the government receives is a criminal violation of our human rights and that the IRS should be bombed from orbit. Some would also have you believe in Black Helicopters and Tin Foil Anti-Mind-Control-Ray Hats.)

This "rebate" doesn't do much of anything, besides distributing tax refunds to taxpayers many months ahead of time. The ideal tax return should end up as a zero-sum; you don't owe anything, and you don't get a big refund that's essentially an interest-free loan to the government for months. They should be drawing the appropriate amount from each paycheck all along.

So, let's assume that I'm a zero-sum taxpayer, shall we? I make over $6K per year, so I'd normally pay $900 on the first $6K in taxes. Under this "rebate", I'm treated as if I'd now be paying $600 in taxes and receive a $300 check in the mail. So far, so good.

However, in April, I'm taxed at the _actual_ 15% for that $6K. (As the article states, this advance-refund policy is "in LIEU of" actually reducing the $6K rate to 10% this year.) Therefore, I owe the full $900 after all, and my balance due will be zero MINUS that $300 credit, so that I'll now OWE the government that $300.

It all comes out to zero, and I had the opportunity to use that $300 and gain, oh, maybe a buck or two in interest over that time. But a whole lot of people are going to be surprised in April when they find out that for all practical purposes, this isn't a refund we're getting, it's a LOAN, albeit an interest-free one.

Now, as far as the tax cuts affecting your income OVER the first $6,000, that's a different issue entirely and is best taken up with your accountants.

So let me get this straight. Bush is doing all of this so he can say "Look! I'm stimulating the economy! Here, have some money!" What happens in a year's time, when Americans' refund checks (which many people depend upon) are all $300 lower than usual, and half of them spent their advanced-refund checks thinking they were some kind of bonus or rebate?

jeff. long-winded, as usual

What black choppers?

;)

Actually, this got me thinking:

I think the city of Philadelphia should RAISE its sales tax--to 9% from 7%. It sounds a bit high, but given that New Orleans and Chicago have sales taxes of at least 10%, we wouldn't be the highest. (I don't know if counties here in the Commonwealth have the right to raise their taxes about the state minimum, but it's a thought.)

Take that extra money, and give it back in the form of discounting the wage tax, for both residents and non-residents that work in the city.

Now then...as a whole, there HAS to be some sort of healthy balance between the amount of taxes we are levied, and what we get for those dollars. If we tax too high (like Sweden and Canada), then our social welfare programs could fall into financial problems. But given what we're being taxed now, there is talk again of Social Security running out of money within this generation. (Of course, it doesn't help that when the Social Security Act was passed, few people lived to 65.)

So...what exactly is a fair tax? I'm not sure, but I know it's not the whole "flat tax" concept.

I"ve always wondered hwo you taxpayers (argh ill be one soon - i'm now running an import business) feel about your moeny going into so called *black* military and research applications?

There was one flying around near the Ben Franklin Bridge around 8:00pm last night. Either black or very dark green.

Well, unfortunately, black projects are probably quite necessary to a large power in a world with hostile nations in it.

And, simply put, whether I admire or dislike "black ops," can I do anything about them? Not really. Will there ever be a true and accurate public accounting of government funds that doesn't cover up something? Not likely. So I don't lose sleep over it.

going far afield to slaughter some sacred cows
 

Jaguar asks a key question here if we generalize it a little. How do we feel about paying for government actions which violate our personal code of ethics? The civics class answer is that we hire, through government, experts for programs with specific knowlege to allow them to make the necessary tradeoffs between competing factions. The reality is the gov employees you get are more likely some combination of fanatics and self-serving bureaucrats than disinterested experts, whether we're talking military leaders or social workers, who represent either their fellow fanatics or themselves more than "societies will". All you need to do is listen to the excuses of the Ollie Norths and John Kerrys of the world or sit down with somebody from the Dept of Agriculture to know these people are willing to make choices most of us would not.

What kind of tax is least unfair? Maybe consumption taxes so you can limit your tax payments, if you don't believe in many of the governments missions? When appropriate, use taxes, gas taxes or tolls for highways. Many difficulties would arise, how do we bill ITT for black ops? How does George Soros pay for opening the Balkans up, oops... outside of campaign contributions? Dang, lost that address for the tin foil hat. My brain waves are seeping out. ;)

If you still need help seeing my view of government, it is simply that government is legalized organized crime. Through government we can justify using force to get what we want. You would never take a gun to your neighbors house and demand money to send your kid to school, but its just fine if the sheriff nails an eviction notice to his front door for the crime of being unable to pay his school tax.

So what can we do about it? Hold government employees to the same standard we hold up for individuals. The Horiuchis and Conditts of the world must suffer the same scrutiny as Joe Schmoe. We need to look to voluntary action first and leave government action as the last resort. Every time you want a new law ask yourself, is this rule important enough for authorities to enforce with a gun? Object lesson http://dailypress.com/news/middlepen...s/86057sy0.htm

Will Rogers said it best--"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

In a government such as ours, there is bound to be some spending that doesn't sit well with everyone. That's why the United States is a republic and not a democracy. If I don't like it, I could move...but why? The benefits of being a United States citizen far outweigh the negatives.

As much as we bitch about our government, those 537 elected officials are willing to do most of the dirty work for the other 275 million of us.

I have to say i like griffs answer =)
interestng answers all round..

Aluminum Foil Reflector Beanies ...
 

Just go there. It's good. Promise.

http://www.zapatopi.net/afdb.html

ahhh safe again
 

Thats the site! Now I can go outside again. ;)

The scary thing is that it took me a few minutes (until I reached the testimonials page) to determine whether that page was SERIOUS or not.

Or have I spent too much time trolling the locals at Free Republic lately?

jeff. who are, thankfully, not contagious

Actually, some of the Navy helicoptors are actually dark blue, but heck, they look black to me. So, I couldn't understand why my cousin Ed jumped 20 feet one day at the community garden when I mentioned that "One of your black helicoptors is above us" while we were out weeding. (Willow Grove folks seem to like to see what we're up to out there!)

BTW, when it comes to sales tax, the State folks have the final say as the tax money is supposed to go to them-- both Pittsburgh and Philly had to get state permission to raise the sales tax and keep the extra. What with all the public school funding problems between Philly and Harrisburg lately, I don't think Harrisburg is going to let Philly raise the sales tax again. . .

God, this state is damned near repressive.

The city is only attempting to save face. IMO, a state takeover might work wonders. Given that the student population is dropping, the schools are falling apart, the teachers pseudo-struck last year, and now they may not be able to pay them...hell, give the Parking Authority back. Take the schools instead.

Philly cannot be in trouble. They just raised taxes to build two new stadiums to replace stadiums that they did not perform maintenance on for the past 20 years. With all those new stadiums, the Philly economy must be booming - after all was that not posted in Cellar mark II? With all those subsidized navy yard jobs, then everything is rosy in the Philly economy.

Oh? You mean the new mayor is historically a power hungry, head bashing mentality? The mass transit system has reverted to MBA mentalities (political appointees and accounting types)? The new 'temporary' stadium carpet cannot even be put down properly by city officials? How can it be since the region - spent so much to look good to George Jr's party- including brick wallpaper on the center divider concrete of the Admiral Wilson Blvd? How can it be since 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top political management?

Oh? That explains why all mass transit expansion plans have been quashed. The same city councilmen are also on the board of directors for the port AND for the Philadelphia Gasworks. Their appointees make plans and spend money on Septa. That explains why the region has no new transportation (highway) plans (I 95 and I-476 will remains crossing over each other without any connection; I-95 southbound will never connect to I-76 westbound; I-76 eastbound will still require getting off onto local roads where all that new stadium construction occurs to get on I-95; the bean counters cannot even propose a solution to the Schukyll Expressway). They region has negative growth compared to national averages. Even the so called high growth areas in Chester county don't even lead the state growth rates. The population is dropping and aging because young innovators must leave the state to find growth jobs.

Of course. We still have the same bean counter mentalities who cannot even purchase street signs at intersections or direction signs for the many twisting highways. Just try to follow local street signs for the Tacony Palmyra or Betsy Ross bridges. We still have a water company that intakes Schukyll River water so dirty that the only thing missing is dead human bodies. PAs libraries - 49th in the nation (of 50 states). Ahh, but we kept costs down. We still have a city without any long term growth plans - except those to subsidize rich corporate sports companies.

Kids - they don't vote - may they be damned.

Speaking of that money...
 

My check came yesterday. And although it was nice to look at the $300 check in my hand, I knew there was a hidden string attached to it...pulling me towards income tax hell...

And now the city may be sued for any money the Eagles cannot recoup through insurance, thanks to last night's debacle.

Although, maybe you can answer this, tw. WHO will own these stadiums? The city, or the Eagles and Phillies, respectively?

Quote:

Oh? You mean the new mayor is historically a power hungry, head bashing mentality?

I don't mind John Street. He is able to cover where Rendell couldn't (e.g. the Unions, no SEPTA strike). The Daily News makes him out to be so shady though...and I'd wager it to be only half-true.

Quote:

Oh? That explains why all mass transit expansion plans have been quashed. The same city councilmen are also on the board of directors for the port AND for the Philadelphia Gasworks. Their appointees make plans and spend money on Septa. That explains why the region has no new transportation (highway) plans (I 95 and I-476 will remains crossing over each other without any connection; I-95 southbound will never connect to I-76 westbound; I-76 eastbound will still require getting off onto local roads where all that new stadium construction occurs to get on I-95; the bean counters cannot even propose a solution to the Schukyll Expressway). They region has negative growth compared to national averages. Even the so called high growth areas in Chester county don't even lead the state growth rates. The population is dropping and aging because young innovators must leave the state to find growth jobs.

You meant 276, not 476, right tw?

Also, if I understand correctly, weren't there plans to build a "crosstown expressway", only to be stopped by local opposition (b/c it went through Southwest and West Philadelphia)? Not to mention, the whole fiasco with the building of the Blue Route.

My thoughts on SEPTA are mixed. SEPTA seems to have most of its transit routes where they are most used and needed--in lower income areas. The access is fairly good where I live, but it could be better. More and more people are latching on to public transit across the country...including here in the Philadelphia suburbs. But it doesn't seem to grow with the demand. Not to mention, SEPTA has the whole area on lockdown, other than PATCO and NJ Transit. The neighboring suburbs may wish to explore their own versions of mass transit.

Generally, suburbs seem to have a better head on their shoulders than their city, but it seems like everyone is on level footing here...along with the commonwealth.