I'm a Birdbrain
 

And I have this picture to prove it. This colorful little guy is a kestrel named Falco. He is currently the ward of a terrific group of falconers who have become regular participants in various of our Pagan festivals over the past couple of years. It has been a rare and very groovy opportunity to become intimate (no, not that way, you filthy-minded dregs) with various raptors, including hawks of several species and, this weekend for the first time, their Gyr Falcon-Kestrel hybrid named Lisa.

While not Pagan, these falconers are extremely Pagan-friendly (in fact, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they eventually became Pagan, so comfortable are they around all of us and our naked, partying, drumming, witchy ways.

They do great work rescuing and rehabilitating birds in need, and even, as in the cases of Lisa and Falco, adopting them and making a committment to care for them for the rest of their lives due to various maladies and/or Federal regulations (Lisa should live about another 38 years in captivity...that's a long committment!).

Anyway, all this just to say that I attended another great Fest this weekend, participating in Scottish Highland games in 105 degree weather. I sucked, but I felt pretty manly for a guy who is only two years post-bypass surgery. Made some new friends, caught up with some old ones, and generally acted like a Pagan. Doesn't get much better than this for me...

Lisa the Gyr Falcon
 

Such a cool looking bird. Very vocal, too...

Manly Warriors?
 

This was the fun throw after the axe throwing competition. Normally, contestants throw a little tomahawk sort of thing at a giant log target, but after that's been settled, people break out the ridiculous toys, and we have a go with them...

Carrying a BFR
 

There were two events that would have just been stupid for me to even attempt, and this is one of them. The Stone Carry, or what I prefer to call the BFR Carry...Big Fucking Rock. 185 pounds of solid stone, with rounded edges making it that much harder to grip. No way, Jose. Still, the winner carried it 515 feet in just under two minutes. Just for the record, the guy in the picture wasn't the winner.

I'm thinking those shoes are not OSHA friendly.

Man thats a beautiful bird. :thumb:

I did! I did see a puhdy tat! And I ate it, burp.
I guess you don't mention the skirt when he's got an axe like that.
I tried the caber toss......once. Great pics man, thanks

The caber toss event featured three different size cabers...12', 14' and 16'. I turned the 12', did not turn the 14', and was smart enough to not try to pick up the 16'.

I like the dude's kilt, though (I like kilts generally) ... I think that's one of the "utilikilts" which are made by a company over in Ardmore somewhere ... one of my friends has one, but he hasn't, as far as I know, had the courage to wear it in public as yet. I'll have to check with him.

The raptor pics are great also El, looks like you had a great time.

Preparation H is missing a good bet by not buying advertising space on the cabers.:(

Wolf, the camo job is indeed a utilikilt. There were fewer of those than usual this year for some reason. A lot of the Safety (i.e., Security with a kindler, gentler name) guys wear them at the big Fest we hold over Memorial Day, but most of them didn't participate at Tara this year due to the heat.

It was a blast, though. Lots of great drumming, and I got to play a little music with an old band partner and also with a friend who is a great native flute player.

OH...and in case it wasn't obvious from the subject line, that's my bloated, aging visage in the first pic with Falco on my head.

egad! I love to look at men's legs when they wear kilts. Oh, nice bird too.

Paganism
 

Elspode.....I know this is a bit off the thread, but what exactly do you do as a pagan? I obviously live a somewhat sheltered life (raised Catholic, non-practicing now for the most part), but is this a religion for you (pagan def. according to Webster = same as heathen, one who has no religion) or is it a way of life for you? Are you a witch, or warlock rather? I thought you'd be Wicken (sp?) then. Your festival looks similar to a RenFair. Is that accurate? What's the difference? I'm not trying to grill you or anything, just curious. Maybe I should have sent you a PM with all my questions?

The birds are beautiful. You should feel lucky to have the opportunity to handle them:cool:

Well, I try not to adhere to Webster's idea of Paganism as I do in fact have a religion. I am Wiccan, and the preferred term for Wiccans is 'witch'. Warlock is more properly used for someone who has turned against his or her coven...translation for it is "oath breaker". Much of the information in the world regarding Paganism and other non-Christian paths is promulgated by Christians, who tend to have a very narrow view of spirituality and have very clearly stated that any path which is not Christian is wrong and damns one to hell.

The festival of which I posted photos is actually centered around a Scottish Highland Games, and it isn't overtly a Pagan festival, although in practice everyone who attends is Pagan as far as I can tell.

I am always happy to answer any questions anyone might have about my path or other Pagan paths of which I have any knowledge...education and community service are the primary missions of our coven.

On a lighter note, I think you would find Wiccan and other Goddess worship paths very familiar as Catholicism is practically goddess worship anyway...;) . In fact, of all the former Christian religions from which my Pagan friends and associates hail, Catholicism seems to be the most common...

There is one thing I can say about Pagans. I've met an awful lot of them in my time, and every damned one of them was really nice to me. I've never met a witch who was a mean-spirited jerk. I'm sure they must exist, but they must be pretty rare.

There are many religions that you most definitely can't say that about.

I know what you mean here. That's part of the reason I'm "non-practicing". There are a lot of things I don't agree with in Catholicism and "if" there is a hell, I don't want to go just because I didn't believe some of their "stories".

That's funny. I would have never pictured a witch wearing a kilt.

Maybe I'm missing your humor here, but if you consider the sacrificing of virgins to be Goddess worship I don't want any part of it.

I'm interested in persuing this conversation. I'm still curious. Watch for a PM if you don't mind. I'm having a heck of a time trying to make my post pretty. There must be a better way to respond to parts of a post without all the copying, pasting, and vB coding I'm doing. I realize I'm a computer dummy, but it shouldn't take an hour to reply to a post:confused:

LUVBUGZ -

There isn't a better what, but here's what I do.

First, use the quote function to start the quote. Delete all that you are not replying to.

(Secondly, I remove the bold tags, because I don't find them necessary, but this step is obviously optional.)

Third, respond.

Fourth, type in [quote] (or hit the Quote button, put a space in and then hit Ok to set up brackets automatically - this is smarter and easier, but I always type it out myself) and then paste in the next part you want to respond to. Don't worry about bolding it (if you're doing step 2) and that's one less step. When you're done, close the tag (I can't do it or it'll quote the text I've written) or, if you were smart, you don't need to, 'cause it's already been done.

GOTO Step 3.

It's more a pain in the ass than, say, taking a nap. But it's still pretty easy. If you respond to one post (or person) for each one of your posts, this makes everything very readable. If you want to respond to multiple people, then you have to deal with attributing whatever to whomever and it gets to be a headache (and you spend an hour doing a two minute job). It's all in the approach; you, too, can respond like a pro! Just work out ahead of time what your post will be like and then get to it!

I think it's easier to just copy and paste what I want to respond to. If the reader has been following the thread, they'll know who said it, if they care.:)

Don't take the discussion to PM, we're interested in your conversation. :(

Anyway, witches don't sacrifice virgins. That's just a myth spread around by Christians.

It's only safe to leave out their name if there are very few posts in between yours and theirs. Otherwise, it's very confusing for your readers, especially in long and active threads.

Pretty Posts
 

Dave,

Thanks for the info. I was hoping there was an easier way, but I guess I'll just have to deal:( Is this the dave that gave Anne a blast of :turd: for guestioning his pixel arranging capabilities? That was very entertaining. If you are the one, you went off dude! I can see your side, but I think Anne was just making a flip remark w/out really meaning to insult your intelligence or abilities. Anyway, I don't want to get those polemics started again. Needless to say I enjoyed it:biggrin: You seem nice enough to me, offering pearls of wisdom to Newbie such as myself:p

Ok, I just thought it might be easier to talk there where I wouldn't have to worry about quoting every other sentence. If Elspode is game, so am I. Maybe I'll ask one question at a time, although that could lead to a pretty long thread. Should I continue here or should a new "Pagan thread" be started? Not sure what forum protocol is:confused:

Actually, I was refering to the Christians doing the sacrificing. I seem to remember something about that from the Bible (or maybe that was an Indiana Jones flic?):confused:

Anne made the ultimate mistake of posting what sounded to me like condescension, although it may have been unintentional. That's the one thing that most people won't tolerate. Everybody has a right to express their opinion. We're all equal so you can disagree with anyone, even UT. He owns the joint but he's the consummate gentleman. :)

But the do sacrifice virginity.:p

Juju's gender continued.....
 

Hey juju,

Now I remember why I assumed you were a girl aside from the semi-fem screen name. I remember during Dave's pixel ability debate that his byline read '...loves juju w/ all his heart'. Considering my possibly misguided Catholic background, I assumed you were a girl. Not even considering that you to may be "partners". Not that there's anything wrong w/ that, but I'm just curious.:)

You could do either. We always drift from the original topic of threads here, so no one is going to object either way.

Anyway, it's no fun if only Elspode gets to know you. :)

juju and I engage in homosexual intercourse on a daily basis.

(Actually, we don't, and I've never met him. That was my user title for a while because of something a month or so ago where he was a weenie and I was real mean back. I actually think he's a pretty cool dude so I kinda put up the silly user title as a way of saying "he doesn't suck, I was just playin'." juju is married and is expecting his first child in the next nine months and I'm EBTR - Everything But The Ring - with my living partner [a female that posts here as jennofay].)

Yes, that's the same Dave. I am a beast, unleashed upon the masses to keep everyone playing nicely (and to tear their fucking throats out when they don't). Occasionally, I go off with very little provocation, but for the most part, if you don't give me a reason to be an asshole, I won't be.

Re: Juju's gender continued.....
 

Lol! Well, what can I say. He's just funny that way. Actually, though, I'm married and heterosexual.

your user title
 

What is this, you don't love me anymore??

Bitch.

By the way, the baby is actually due in 2 1/2 months now. Gettin' close! (I know, I know, doom and gloom, just wait you'll regret it, have fun now, enjoy the smell of crap, blah blah blah)

LOL Yeah I think we've pretty well worked you over on that topic.:D

Paganism, Witches and Sacrificing Virgins
 

Luvbugz, as stated before, I'm happy to engage in any sort of discussion about my particular path. However, Paganism encompasses a great many differing paths, and I'm by no means an expert on all of them. Like most endeavors, the moment you think you know all you need to know about your religion, you probably should immediately cease practicing it, because you'll be wrong.

Above all else, Wicca is an internal journey. All of the external trappings (lots of cool robes, magickal tools, graven images...all the stuff that the Bible says is bad) mean absolutely nothing in and of themselves. They are tools, just like any other tool, something you use in connection with your spiritual knowledge and efforts, to achieve a state of consciousness.

Wicca, as practiced by my coven, is a path that allows the practitioner much latitude in choice of deity, form of visualization, and source of energies from which to draw. However, like all religious paths, there is no one true form of Wicca. It has permutated since its codification in the early 50's since being brought into being by Gerald Gardner, and there are as many forms of the same basic religion now as there are of Christianity, as far as I can tell.

Most variations have a couple of things in common...first and foremost, Wicca is a religion of personal responsibility. You can't fuck up and blame someone else for it, and no one is going to forgive you. You have to make up for your wrongs. If you intentionally commit harm, you will expect that to be returned to you thrice over. Tends to keep one on the straight and narrow, if you accept that concept to be true.

Anyway, please feel free to throw questions my way. If you want to start a separate thread, please do shoot me a PM with the location and title as I sometimes have to browse The Cellar rather hurriedly, and I'd hate to overlook a topic in which I was supposed to be participating.

Oh...and there *are* a lot of Pagan assholes...probably at least as many as there are in the mundane world, because, in the end, Pagans are people first, and Pagans second. However, *I* am one of the nice ones. :3eye:

     Good, a virgin is a terrible thing to waste.

     Anyway, Ep, Goddess worship? I find this interesting. What is the role of the Deity if not to forgive or take away responsibility? Just to guide maybe? Also, what forms does 'worship' take? Other than attending what appear to be pretty damn cool festivals, I mean.

Goddess worship in general is an acknowledgement of the female power of creation. Historically, goddess worship was very common, if not prevalent, amongst ancient peoples. These people were very much attuned to the Earth and the cycles of the seasons, and so their practices centered around the events closest to their lives...the turning of the seasons, the cycles of birth (Spring), life (Summer), harvest (Fall) and death (Winter). From the ancient's point of view, plants and animals went through these cycles, as did the entire Earth.

For modern Pagans, these events are symbols, representations of a natural process of which we humans are a part. Our deities tend to be representations of some aspect of the natural world. For some, these deities are as literal as is Jehovah is to his adherents, but for most, these dieties are symbolic, a way to visualize the creative and motive forces of our corporeal existence, and a link to our spiritual selves as part of the greater whole of the universe.

I guess I would say that the purpose Pagan deities serve is pretty much the same as the purpose served by Jehovah or Allah, with the exception of divine forgiveness. Our dieties are the creators and incarnations of the elements of the universe, and we are a part of them...and they of us.

My particular coven practices goddess and god worship in equal measure...we believe in the inherent balance of male and female energies in all things...sort of a 'it takes two to tango' kind of thing. There are Pagan sects which practice goddess worship exclusively, but that's for another post.

As for the Wiccan form of worship, it is ritual like any other ritual. We form circle, or sacred space, entreat the embodiment of the elements of the four directions, and the god and goddess, to join and watch over our proceedings, and then conduct our meditations, spellwork, or whatever within this place 'apart and separate' from the real world. We then share bread and wine (a practice older than the Christian communion), and then dismiss the dieties and elements, and dissolve circle.

Another thing that sets Wicca and a lot of other Pagan paths apart from mainstream religious practices is the fact that we are *all* clergy, in a sense. Anyone can conduct a ritual proceeding, even without others present.

There's a lot more to this, obviously, but this is the basic theme.

El,
I want to preface this and future posts regarding this topic by saying...Please, do not at any time feel I am attacking you or your beliefs. I am asking/commenting because I am interested in learning more about it. My personal "style" is to basically say/ask what I feel which sometimes (often) is mistaken as argumentative, rude, or just plain bitchy. So, in advance, I apologize if I might happen to come across in this manner. Also, although I don't agree w/, buy into, or believe most of Catholicism, that is the only religion I have known and still find myself defending it at times. I know this is hypocritical, but old habits die hard (no pun intended...ya know nuns/habits;)). All this being said, my first issue is.....Wicca vs. Pagan. It may be a symantics thing, but I would consider you a Wiccan rather that a Pagan. For some reason Pagan just sounds 'bad' to me. I asked my dad what a Pagan is once and he said "Pagans where those Roman bastards who piliged, raped, and plundered." He by no means is an expert, but like I noted before good old Webster says a Pagan has NO religion. You also said you consider yourself as having a religion, Wicca. So, am I correct or is there some "New-Pagan" who does 'believe' in some type of religion?

The definition of the term 'Pagan' has, in relatively recent times, become an umbrella term for persons who are not Christian. At least, that's the way those of us who fall under the heading use it.

The terms Pagan and Heathen derive from ancient times, and were descriptive of indigenous peoples in parts of Europe. These peoples worshipped nature, and had their own gods and goddesses (which varied by culture and geographic location). Since the writers of the history books get to pick the terms, they were named Pagan (from paganus, or country-dweller) or Heathen (literally, dwellers on the heath, or countryside). Since those writing the definitions felt that their own religions were the proper, superior ones, these indigenous peoples were assumed to have no religion...well, none that anyone need be concerned with, anyway.;)

There are several modern dictionary definitions for the word Pagan, I submit to you the following from The American Heritage Dictionary online. Definition #1 is the predominant definition in our modern, politically correct world.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/p/p0011100.html

So, I guess it comes down to this...Wiccans are Pagans (because our practices are rooted in the practices of the indigenous peoples of Europe), but not all Pagans are Wiccans. I suppose I tend to call myself Pagan more often than Wiccan, and that probably boils down to 'safety in numbers' than anything else. If you only count yourself as Wiccan, the group is smaller, but if you consider yourself part of all the Pagan subgenres, it becomes a substantial number, and that is essentially how our community functions. There's a lot of overlap, and we tend to support each other's paths and rituals, and merge our community efforts and outreach as a group of differents, operating mostly as a group of people with a path in common. Does that help any?

You needn't worry about me being offended by your inquiries. I am generally able to differentiate between honest curiosity and outright attacks. :D

I agree that 'external trappings' have no meaning on their own, but these (robes, magical tools, and graven images) are used as 'symbols', correct? Therefore, they do have meaning and are obvioulsy associated w/ Wicca. I think these things are cool looking, but it's their symbolism that I'm not sure about. I think these objects are what may "scare" outsiders because they don't know what their significance is and assume it's something bad/scary. So, what are these things used for? I'm sure there are way too many to explain them all, but just name and explain a few for me so I can get a feeling for their significance.

PS...I think I get it about the Pagan/Wicca thing, but I still consider you a Wiccan, if I may. Gee, I might even be a Pagan, I'm a country-dweller.:p

Webster says coven is a gathering or meeting of witches. What's your def.? Is this your particular group of fellow Wiccans, or is there more to it?

The definition of coven is essentially correct. Wiccans consider themselves witches, and our worship groups are called covens, for the most part. I do know of at least one group in our town that has recently formed a Wiccan church...

Ritual tools are indeed symbolic, and any "power" these items have is only that which is imbued by its owner and user. Interestingly, many of the ritual items used in Wicca are things which are commonly found in the homes and hearths of the common people originally.

The first time my son attended a Wiccan ceremony was when my wife and I got handfasted. Following the ceremony, he reported to his mother that people were walking around waving knives and saying things he didn't understand. As she is the product of mainstream Christianity, and not terribly open minded to begin with, she totally lost it. It has taken me literally years of explaining to get her to not actively fear that someone was going to sacrifice something. Now she just says we're all going to burn in hell...

There is a lot of information out there for anyone who cares to look which explains pretty much every aspect of Wicca and other Pagan paths, right down to use of ritual tools, but most people don't really care enough to learn. It is far easier to say "my god is better than your god", and leave it at that. There is nothing to fear from a true practitioner of Wicca, but that isn't to say there aren't Pagan freakos out there, because there are. But there are Christian, Buddist and Muslim freakos as well.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is...handfasted (married?)?

So what exactly were they doing waving knives around?

Not to get too personal, but with your beliefs differing so much from your wife's I would think this creates some strife in the marriage:( Her comment sounds exactly like something my dad (Mr. Catholic) would say.

Obviously, I care enough to learn or I wouldn't be asking, so if you could, would you direct me to some websites or other places to find out more about these rituals and tools? Preferably info. from the 'sane' Wiccans as opposed to the "freako" Pagans you refered to:) Thanks

I should have been more succinct. My son's mother is my *ex* wife. My current wife (to whom I was being handfasted at the time, but to whom I am now legally married as well) is a Wiccan High Priestess, so we tend to see eye to eye on most religious issues.

Ritual cutlery is extremely common in Wicca. A double-edged blade, preferably with a black handle, is referred to as an "athame" (pronunciations vary, but ah-thaa-may is fairly common), and is used in ritual to direct energy, basically the same as a wand. An athame is more appropriate when doing more difficult magickal work, whereas a wand might be preferable if you were doing something like, say, encouraging your plants to grow better, that sort of thing.

Athames are never used to cut *anything* except air. In fact, if you do draw blood, you must break and bury it. There are ritual uses for knives where cutting *is* involved (no, not cutting on any living beings, except possibly plants), and for that, you use a boline (bo lean), a single edged knife reserved for ritual purposes.

BTW, most athames aren't even sharpened, although they are pretty darn pointy.

To be honest, I don't really glean all that much info from the Web regarding Wicca, but there is plenty out there. Warning...not all of it is good, but I really haven't taken the time to evaluate it all. If you are into reading, see if you can locate a book called "The Truth About Witchcraft Today" by Scott Cunningham. Although it is becoming somewhat dated, it is really the standard for dispelling untruths about the modern practice of Wicca and witchcraft (further warning: not all witches are Wiccan, and therefore operate under different standards of ethics than we Wiccans do, so don't assume than any witch you meet is in fact Wiccan...they might not be). If you find anything online that you feel is informative, but you wonder about it, send me the link and I'll be happy to tell you just how flaky or reasonable it is, *from my point of view*. There's a lot of variety, even within Wicca, of practices and ideas.

Oh...and handfasting is an ancient coupling tradition in which a couple promises to be together for a year and a day. At the end of that time, they may either renew their vows, or go their separate ways. I chose to keep the lady I was handfasted with eight years ago, and actually married her outright five years ago. Not surprisingly, our anniversary is on October 31st. It is the highest of Wiccan holidays, and we call it Samhain. You probably know it as All Hallow's Eve, or Halloween. :D

I won't vouch for this site in its entirety, because I have only just brushed it over, but it seems to be fairly decent:

http://www.americanwicca.com/

As always, I am happy to elaborate, comment or otherwise add to any information you find, and answer any questions you may have about anythign you read or hear regarding Wicca, Paganism and alternative spiritualities...from my own point of view, as always.

I'm not always right about everything. It pisses me off, but darn it, that's just the way it is. I'm hoping to correct that sometime during this incarnation, though. :eek:

Hey Els, long time no see. Back to my questions. So, w/in your coven what deities to you "worship" and what do they symbolize?

Catholics say it is a sin to worship deities and you'll go to hell for doing so. I'm assuming they don't, but do witches believe in life after death and that they may spend that afterlife in hell if they sin in life? Or, do they believe they'll get the "thrice over" thing in life and when the body dies that's the end of the story?

My wife says that Catholics aren't considered Christians. Is that true? I thought that in order to be a Christian you just had to "accept Jesus Christ as your savior"?

We sort of pick 'em as we need 'em, I guess. Different deities symbolize different things, depending on their originating pantheon (i.e., Vulcan as God of the Forge...we use him when we want to boost creativity, or make something, be it physical or more evanescent; we choose Mercury if we want to improve communication, or Venus if we ask for assistance in becoming more loving). There is always the Goddess and the God, the male and the female creative and life forces, though, no matter what specific sort of spellwork we are doing. I guess the answer to your question is that we basically worship the Goddess and the God, in whichever form a person chooses to visualize that energy/force/deity.

Kind of odd for a religion with more saints than you can shake a censor at, isn't it? ;)

Reincarnation is central to the Wiccan faith. We believe that all things are cyclic...it is based on the notion of birth, death and rebirth that we see as the seasons change. Celtic religions believed in the Summerlands, a place where you went after death where your spirit would walk forever amidst green, sun and plenty. That would certainly have seemed like a big improvement over the cool, damp Northern European/British Isles climates during the periods from which these beliefs arise. Basically, we believe that all of existence is an endless cycle, our own physical bodies included. Our spirits, we believe (as do many other religions, in fact), are timeless.

As for Hell...that's a Christian concept, not a Wiccan one. We don't do Satan, Hell or any of the other permutated visions of damnation, evil and punishment that Christians have concocted out of older, less malign light/dark concepts. So, the "Law of Three" applies to this life, I guess...although I suppose there's nothing preventing you from getting your comeuppance in the next incarnation. :cool:

Yea, they gots lots of Saints, but I think they pay homage to them as opposed to "worship" them.

Sounds kinda like "Heaven" to the Catholics, but w/out the hell.

I've always wondered about reincarnation. So, is there a set number of souls that just keep getting cycled through. If a baby is born is it a new soul or just one that has been reincarnated?

I think Catholics are considered Christians, but for some reason I never liked that classification.

     Actually, this is a Southern Baptist based misnomer. Catholics aren't Protestant. However, most Southern Baptist will tell you they are Christian, not Protestant. This is incorrect, actually they are both. Don't see the connection yet? It works like this. Baptist is not Protestant, (at least many of them claim) it is THE Christian religion. If Catholics are neither Baptist nor Protestant they aren't Christian.
     I know this sounds bizarre but I've had the arguments over it. One guy even linked Baptist's with John the Baptist as if he founded the branch. Didn't say it outright, just suggested it.

I suppose it depends on your personal beliefs. My favorite version of reincarnation is that new souls are created all the time (how else to explain the increase in population?), some are recycled, and some attain perfection and go on to join the All.

Southern Baptists aren't alone in believing that their branch of Christianity is the *only* real way...but they are the most smug about it, or so it often seems to me. :D

     Well, I don't know if 'smug' is the right word, but they do seem sure of themselves. Also they don't tend to take it well if you disagree with them about well anything. Doesn't sound like a problem? A mere difference of opinion? Heh, Southern Baptist friend of mine did joke that the possesion of a fire arm was required in order to join the church, and another assured me that the Gov should enforce 'morals' or let them do it. Their version of morals of course.

Did I miss something? How the hell did Baptists and Protestants get in the convo.? I beg to differ w/ your logic here.

Christian =a believer in Jesus as the Christ, or in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus (Webster's def.)

Catholics fall under the def. of Christian, therefore Catholics are Christians. This has nothing to do w/ Baptists and Protestants.

Protestant = any Christian not belonging to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Eastern Church (Webster's def.)

Baptist = a member of a Protestant denomination practicing baptism of believers by immersion (Webster's def.)

Catholics, Protestants, and Baptists are all Christians.
Protestants and Baptists are NOT Catholics.

That's what I was thinking, that new souls had to be created to explain the population increase. So, your soul keeps cycling through until it's perfect, then it no longer gets reincarnated. Isn't this like what the Hindu's or Buddhist's believe. I guess I could look it up.

What do you mean by going to join "the All"? What's "the All"? Or is that a typo?

The concept of The All, as I understand it, is that all things are inextricably intertwined. There are a lot of variations on the theme, but essentially, the universe itself is a kind of consciousness, a matrix upon which all energy flow is inscribed (I recommend reading the book "The Holographic Universe" for a very interesting and provocative treatment of this theory).

During corporal existence, our experiences and actions (which, let's face it, all involve the flow of energy) are imprinted upon that, but we have a separate identity (spirit? consciousness?) from The All. When we leave the physical plane of existence, our accumulated energies return to the "pool" of energies that is the universe, to either be returned for another shot at achieving "perfection" (whatever the hell that is), or at some point, to become integrated into that pool.

The notion of The All appeals to me on many levels, but I would really like an explanation of how our individual consciouness is extricated from the pool for our corporeal existences, then returned to the pool, then extricated again, and so on.

Again, I don't have the answers...just some thoughts.

Yes, The All does sound interesting and a lot better than going to hell I might add.;) This concept might explain why some people "feel" or "sense" that they have lived on earth in another form. I mean like lived during another era, during another space in time. I have recently been watching a TV show called "Crossroads". I'm not sure if it airs where you live or if you have seen it, but this guy (can't remember his name) is a "medium" who validates messages sent from "the other side" to his guests who are on "this side". He gives them "a reading". I use to just click past this show thinking that it is a bunch of crap, a hoax if you will, but stopped one time to actually watch it. Of course it could be a huge hoax created for ratings, but if it isn't I find it quite interesting. Along w/ easing loved ones minds that their friends and family members are OK and are in a "safe place" now it seems to show that there *is* a "spiritual life" after death. I also find it interesting that none of these people who have passed appear to be "in hell". Now that could be all part of the hoax too, but if not it's nice to know your soul won't be burning in hell for eternity after your body has died. At the same time though there is no suggestion that these souls will be coming back, ie. reincarnated. Maybe only the "perfect" souls are able to come through and reveal themselves to "this side". These are all very interesting thoughts to ponder;)

     LuvBugz, if you go back you'll find that I was responding to something Juju said. Heck, I even quoted him. What his wife was saying, as I previously pointed out, is a common misconception among the Southern Baptists I've known. That's how they got involved.
     I actually stated the idea to be incorrect in my post, even used the words misnomer, incorrect and bizzare. I assume you misunderstood me, and were seeking to inform instead of treating me like I'm stupid. Thanks for the definitions, but I was well aware of them. Please reread my post and notice what I said. This is not my logic, just some stupidity that I've argued over on many occasions. Also, I hate that particular misconception becasue it's based in ignorance about the origin of the religion these people follow.

So your soul gets recycled until it reaches perfection, then becomes part of "God". Like Syc.:D

Whit, yes I realized you were responding to Juju's post, but I didn't understand the lack of logic in your reply and why Baptists and Protestants where being mentioned. I understand now that you were reiterating someone else's idea's to show how illogical they are and not your own. Just to make sure we're on the same page though....you do agree with my logical deduction that Catholics, along with Baptists and Protestants, are all Christians?

How do you know that Webster isn't the Devil?:eek:

Yeah, and it only took 226 recyclings.

     Oh, most certainly. In fact, I've tried to convince many Southern Baptist's of this. I think one or two may have actually listened to me.
     Oh, by the by, I was speaking to a well traveled friend the on the subject and he says it isn't just a southern thing, he's heard it up north too. So maybe it's a Baptist, as opposed to Southern Baptist idea.

     Syc, 226? Damn... I'm only on cycle 42...

     Bruce, Webster the Devil? Could be, it would explain why he still looks like a 9 year old.