Carlo Giuliani vs. corporate juggernaut
 

err....................GOd i didn't need to see that at 10 in the morning after getting home at four: i almost spewed my morning coffee
>=(
What the hell is this about?

Sequence of events as I understand them:[list=1][*]Vandals and hooligans (aka "protesters")* run amok throughout the city, hurling firebombs, looting local businesses and assaulting the police.
[*]Small group of vandals and hooligans hooligans manage to corner a much smaller group of riot police. Vandals and hooligans begin to assault trapped police officers with bricks, rocks, spears (yes, I said spears), large pieces of lumber, etc.
[*]Trapped police officers prepare to force an exit.
[*]Particularly stupid hooligan (Signore Giuliani) attempts to bludgeon one of the police officers with a fire extinguisher. (If you don't believe a fire extinguisher can be a dangerous weapon, drop one on your foot.)
[*]Police officer shoots stupid hooligan in the head.
[*]Darwin smiles.

(* Please note: "protesters" != "vandals and hooligans". Most of the protesters in Genoa are reasonably law-abiding types, seeking to air their grievances in a non-violent manner.[/list=1]
The moral of this story: If you pull a black ski mask over your face and use a fire extinguisher to attack a cop, don't be surprised when he shoots you.

This is almost commonplace now...

I don't agree with half of the things that the protestors "protest" about. However, they have the right to demonstrate peacefully...and these idiots go out there and ruin things for everyone involved. Seattle was completely caught off-guard by these nuts. Not to mention, it makes the G-8 look like bigger assholes than they already are.

Hubris Boy, sorry but your wrong on a few counts.

Yes there are/were a smallish number of hardcore anarchists running amock, this guy was one of them. While carrying a fire extinguisher towards an ARMOURED LAND CRUSIER he was shot twice the head by a cop INSIDE the cruiser. The vehicle then apparently backed over him, possibly repeatedly. - in other words the cop was in basically 0 direct danger, he has since been charged with murder, and rightly so.

There is another key point here, he shot him clean in the HEAD, cops are taught how to shoot to disarm but not kill, this guy wanted to kill, if he wanted to stop he throwing it surely he could have shot him in the chest/shoulder which would have made him drop it but is far less likely to kill him that between the eyes.

I don't agree with the methods of anarchists, they are counterproductive, but I like huge group of people protesting such meetings in a peaceful manor. Also please, remember cops don't play fair, I was at the S11 rally in Melbourne last year. In some of the batten charges they just randomly hit people around the head with 3 foot long steel poles, often these people were just standing on the sidelines, some of the cops just went rabid and hit anything that wasn’t wearing blue, and the court cases which have recently been won here prove it.

2 sides to ever story - I'm getting my information from the Age newspaper here, which is the biggest and leans slightly conservative so....

Also note that amongst the 124 non police injured (64 cops injured) were 10 journos who were apparently beaten despite wearing ID gear..

When they can raise nearly 100,000 people onto the streets, its sure sign to me that something is amiss, and that people are realizing how such meetings undermine our fragile democracy.

I fear the future.

Jaguar, sorry but you're wrong on a few counts:

The cops were outnumbered and surrounded by a violent mob. If that doesn't constitute danger, I don't know what does.

No, they aren't. Cops are trained to shoot to kill, and to aim "center-of-mass". If a cop points a gun at you, he's not trying to wing you, or shoot the fire extinguisher out of your hand. That only happens in movies. If a cop points a gun at you, he's aiming at a spot in the middle of your chest and he's preparing to kill you, because he's exhausted all his other options and can't think of any other way to resolve the situation. That's why it's called "deadly force", and why it's used so rarely.

I have no idea what this means.

All this proves is that there are some stupid cops in Melbourne. I don't know anything about this. Did they fire the cops in question? I hope so.

Petitio principii- "it begs the question". You make a statement based on a "fact" which has yet to be proven by argument. Are you suggesting that the G8 meeting is somehow anti-democratic? I would beg to differ with you there. With the exception of the Russians (and we only invite them because we don't want to hurt their feelings, and they like to feel they're still important), this is a meeting of the world's largest democracies. They're getting together to figure out ways to help the rest of the world enjoy the same democratic blessings and, incidentally, get rich along the way. Wheeee!

I do, too. But for entirely different reasons.

These demonstrations can indeed be peaceful. As an example, the IMF/World Bank in Washington, DC last spring.

DC Police saw what happened in Seattle during the WTO meetings. They had a bit of time to prepare. Arlington, VA Police were made US Marshals so that they could keep patrol over the bridges that run between the two cities--hence, giving the DC Police more bodies. In addition, everyone was on duty during that period. Damned near every police officer was on the streets. The police also caught a break (some may say unfair) by raiding the protestors staging area two days before the protest. (The reason--building code violations. It was sneaky, yes...but shrewd on their end.) In the end, a few hundred people got arrested, were let go on minor violations, a few got hurt, but nothing extreme happened.

I believe that as a whole, cops DO play fair. However, cops DO have a right to play tricks on us citizens in order to protect society as a whole.

If the cops in general felt they were in imminent danger, then they did have the right to shoot and kill Giuliani.

As far as the G8 (or rather, the G7 plus Russia), it was a gathering of the 8 most powerful nations. As much as we may not agree with all their policies and decisions, they represent us a whole. Furthermore, the US is a republic, NOT a democracy...and this goes for most first-world nations. If we were all true democracies, then we would not be first-world nations...it would be sheer chaos. Also, the protestors will NEVER get anywhere, for the simple fact that there are too many factions. This isn't like the Civil Rights Era or anything. I'd be curious to know how much money Bono and Bob Geldof have given to relieve third-world debt.

They were part of a convoy of armoured 4wds - the fire extinguisher would have bounced off - at worst left a dent. I've got pictures of the car and the shooting here. If you think you in enough danger to kill someone for throwing somthing in you - while inside what amounts to an armoured personel carrier i question your judgement.

Stupid cops in melbourne? they are using exactly the same tactics over there and in many other similar rallies- blind batten charging, its dangerous and innefective - a good excuse to bash people up. I userstand where the cops are coming from - and targeting cops is not smart but thats no excuse to kill people. There are few situation where i think cops shoudl even have the right to carry firearms. Airtasers, capsician sprays, cattle prods, and things like netguns are more than sufficient for 99% of situations. Firearms shoudl only be used by a teams like ARVs and SWAT who have the full training and dicipline to use them effectively. Its not easy to do, it requires years of specialisted training.

I've done full weapons training (mostly subbys(Uzi, MP5, MP5K, MP5SD) and rifles(AK47, M16) but some pistol) for a couple of reasons (Work in cambodia where you carry arms for security reasons and for paintball licnece) , we were trained to aim for 3 targets depending on the goal, head/center chest for kill or shoulder to disarm. Secnet training i did was partly based on H&K training - the most elite training organisation in weapons use and handeling in the world.

The cop shot him in the head - twice, he clearly wanted to kill him - then BACKED OVER THE BODY. He has been charged with murder for a good reason, this cannot come under self defense.

G8 meeting as slightly different in nature to what i do not like which are WTO meetings - which basicly are closed doors meeting over the richest and the most powerful - without public concent or scrunity our democraticly leaders cut deals with the multibillion dollars dominaters of commerce. This is what is defined as an olicarchy (yes i can't type and yes my spelling, particualry latin, sucks) where power in concentrated amoungst a few.

Well i don't think 100000 peopel are out there for a picnic - they have each some to the same conclusion that somthing is seirously wrong there - and are motivated enough to do somthing about it.

There are many reasons ot fear the future - 3 generation of tech are gonna turn out some pretty scary stuff (although i wouldn't mind some neural implants amoungst other things) and i'm not looking forward to what will probably left of our enviroment but total domination by corperate interests i see as the biggest threat. Blend 1984, some elements of Brave new world and and William Gibson and bingo - welcome to reality 2020.

ANd its hard to spell/type correctly when your tying in free periods in a busy library surroudned by peopel at school.

Goodness... you're extraordinarily well-trained. Tell me, which companies hire 16 year-old Australians for armed security work in Cambodia? And, which companies train 16 year-old Australians to handle machine guns? :eek:

FYI- the M-16 fires a high-velocity 5.56mm round, the AK-47 fires an enormous 7.62mm round, and the Uzi and the H-K MP5 variants you mentioned all fire the venerable 9mm Parabellum. (Personally, I think the 9mm is a little underpowered, but a lot of people still like it. The +p and +p+ loads are nice, if you can get them. But I digress...) Getting hit in the shoulder with any of these rounds would likely be fatal. Kinetic shock alone (forget about the bullet itself) would cause massive trauma to the brachial plexus and possibly even the pericardium; and, if the brachial artery or basilic vein gets torn, you'll probably bleed to death before they can get you to the hospital.

Anybody who ever taught you that shooting somebody in the shoulder isn't likely to be fatal is either a liar or a fool.

When you go off to university, be sure to take a class in human anatomy, even if it's not a requirement for your major. It's a fascinating topic!

Hope this helps! :)

Cops don't have heavy weapons, I think the cop was using a glock18, although I’m not sure.

What company?
If you hadn’t noticed Cambodia isn’t a nice place. My dad is a digital electronics engineer, I know the systems he works with well, security systems. Most of my work was soldering up circuit board and power supplies and installing them in various locations. Systems in Cambodia are slightly more complex than the average, and working in Cambodia is not safe. Training was provided my ex-military Cambodia and a mercenary firm that was US based, although I cannot remember the name.

Congratulations for knowing what type of rounds the various guns fire, a brilliant achievement in patronization and attempting to be condescending as possible. AK47 I used only once - I disjointed my shoulder with the recoil (although it is by far the most used weapon, both Quick Response Teams which the security company kept mostly used them), last work I did although I’m going back at the end of the year. MP5/K I did full training with, apart from vehicle deployment. M16 and Uzi was more target practice, if I was working n the field I carried an MP5. Work is mostly done inside walled complexes, home of the rich and powerful or business HQs. The most vulnerable time is when work is being done on security systems, some include turret guns. While there was never an incident there have been, and will be again. Gangs are well armed, up to an including RPGs, mortars, light support weapons etc... You don't fuck with these people, you shoot and run. If you doubt what I’m saying take a look at a national geographic article form last year about Angkor Wat, they were forced by the local authorities to take a full armored convoy. Sure a big part of doing the training was the fun bit of trying out guns etc, but it was pretty good, and worth doing. Just curious, have you done any military training yourself or somthing or did you jsut grab a couple of facts of a webpage hoping to intimidate me?

I never implied that you would live if shot with a full size assault rifle you would live, but last I check cops don't usually carry M16s and the like(although I saw some footage that looked like a riot cop firing some kind of subby into the air...). This guy was shot with a pistol, and ambulances were around - its the middle of a riot, they are on standby. Sure I'm no qualified doctor by a long shot but I’d say you'd have a better chance than in the head but you certainly would not be throwing anything around for a while.
And on a relative measure, I think you'll agree the chances of survival are higher.

I agree syc, what most of there people want - true socialism is never going to happen. It is a matter of balance and alot of people think that’s well out of wack at the moment and I’m one of them. I don't want revolution, I want evolution. The currant protest movement is a huge myriad of groups banded together, many of them overlap, no it’s not really going to do much but it gets attention, that’s a start. I'm not some kind of far left antiglobalisation nut. I run a small business importing hardware for crying out loud, globalization is good, it’s a matter of its implementation and reaping the most for the majority.

If this cop had been on the ground and the guy came at him with this, sure, shoot, but he was in an armored vehicle, that’s not defensible, and that’s why he’s up for murder.

Flame War?
 

Years of USENET may have left me over-sensitive, but it sounds like it's time to break out the asbestos g-string (y'know, protect what's important without over-exposing yourself to the asbestos).

*sighs*
very close to.

I looked at pics from the NY Times and also read various stories on the incident from several agencies.

From what I've gathered on my own, it IS possible that the cops overreacted. I didn't see pics of the kid getting run over, but saw a pic of the moment the kid was getting ready to throw the extinguisher. Bottom line: Civil disobedience. Gandhi did it. MLK did it. Cesar Chavez did it. The majority of the protestors in Seattle, DC, and Genoa did it. But you do NOT throw fire extinguishers at police officers...period. Whether the cop was in an armored vehicle or not (and from what I could see, there WAS a window open on the vehicle).

This <A HREF=http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/21/international/21ITAL.html?searchpv=day02">link</A> will expire later in the week...and you must be registered with the New York Times to read it (it's free). But these are probably the best couple of pics I've seen (other than the one displayed here).


And for the record, it is a POSSIBLE manslaughter...see <A HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/23/international/europe/23ITAL.html">this story</a>.

Socialism and communism are wonderful ideas on paper...and that's really about it. Sure, we all want SOME sort of change...but in a capitalist society such as ours, it will come slowly. After all, it took over 300 years to begin dismantling the injustice against slaves and their African-American and Hispanic offspring.

Great leaders of civil unrest did so "non-violently". They also represented a cause. There is no cause in these street riots. Based upon interviews, most demonstrator rioters don't even have a clue about they they are rioting over. They don't even know the facts. They have been educated in the knowledge of Action News.

No wonder these adult children are violent. They see car crashes nightyly and call that news. Sorry. I have no sympathy for a person that got what he deserved. The only way you can prove to me otherwise is to demonstrate brainwashing. Of course that is a viable possibility.

Most of the violent anarchists are from radical socialist groups. Not a very smart cause, but a cause. And the fact that implying that by this the forfit thier right to life..

Alot of different people and groups (non violent protesters) ar earngy about alot of things, msot of htem are intertwined, until they can prove that and organise a propper front nad ogranisation they are wasting their time sadly.

Look again at the picture. What is that on his head. He does not represent people. He is simply the latest version of Nazi Storm troopers who created 1930s anacrchy in order to advance themselves - people who crave power - everyone else be damned. Do we really want another Third Reich leadership?

Great world leaders don't field hooded demonstrators. Ghandhi and King used "non-violent" civil disobedience. Even Malcolm X's supporter in their most radical times did not cover their faces. In fact they wore suits and clean cut appearances.

Ironically, who did the Martin Luther King civil disobedience demonstrators rail against - with their faces exposed? The enemy of civil rights were again, "people with hoods" . That is not just a coincidence. Why did they wear hoods? Why did Carlos wear a hood?

Carlos is no different. He does not represent a just cause because he covers his face. He only represents self serving interests which is why he wears a woolen black ski mask in July in Italy. He got what he deserved - albeit extreme. It is better that he did not have to go to court because he killed someone - which is really what he wanted to do with that fire extinguisher. If someone was going to die, then Carlos and not the cop was the best choice.

The cause that Carlos really represents is a need for people to receive factual information. I maintain Carlos did not read The Economist - too much intellectual activity - which, BTW, was also characteristic of the 1930 Nazi party. If Carlos and his peers had their way, then the world would be a worse place.

The questions raised by anarchists are valid. Unfortunately who do they attack? People and institutions who have been asking and seeking answers to those same questions before Carlos was born, the organizations who have tried many different solutions so far without success; and those same institutions who have attempted new solutions again without success.

However Carlos represents those who know none of this. To have any sympathy for Carlos, you first must say that he was a victim of his own ignorance.

You could say that. However I don't believe these anarchists to be victims of ignorance. I believe these people, like British soccer hooligans, only want the thrill of violence. Globalization is just a cute tool to recruit more ignorant supporters who also only want the thrill of violence.

What is the downside to Carlos' death? Too many people will see the emotion of a dead adult child instead of first seeing the black hood. The first thing I see is a hood so black that we needed a separate picture to see his face. That black hood represents what Carlos really wanted. He wanted violence - not to advance mankind - which is why he did not even have the balls - was not even man enough - to show his face. Carlos destroyed his own life. I have no sympathy for Carlos who even dumped useless suffering upon his parents.

In 1968 Chicago, when the whole world was watching, - - no hooded faces - - because civil disobedience represented a real cause. To associate Carlos with any great civil movement is to praise Hilter for removing another institution - an elected government. Carlos only represents a selfish cause.

I think we've pretty well come to a consensus that Signore Giuliani was an idiot, or worse.

I'm curious, though... has anybody seen any biographical info on him? I've looked, but come up empty-handed. A Google search returns a lot of "Carlo Giuliani"s, but most of the sites are in Italian. The search is made more difficult by the fact that Giuliani seems to be a fairly common surname in Italy.

It might be enlightening to know how he ended up the way he did. Does anybody know anything about him? His background? His education? (Must have been pretty limited!) Did he belong to any political "groups", or was he just a free-lance moron? Etc., etc.

BTW tw- I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think you're wide of the mark when you compare the rioters in Genoa to the Nazis. Both the Nazi and Communist parties in Weimar Germany were very well organized and reasonably disciplined. (When they weren't busy killing each other in the streets, that is.) More importantly, all the members were (theoretically) fighting for a common ideology, however abhorrent it may have been.

As far as I can tell, neither of these elements are present with Giuliani and his buddies. To call them anything other than vandals or hooligans is to give them too much credit. To suggest that they share a common goal, other than random violence, is absurd.

I wonder how many of them are just bored?

Damn tw...about time you got back into the foray...

Exactly. The best leaders were those who were nonviolent. MLK, Gandhi...they posed a threat to the system because they created change without resorting to force. Malcolm X too in his last few years. The government doesn't care about the militant types...well, they do. BUT I think the government only gives them a brief glance.

Quote:

There is no cause in these street riots. Based upon interviews, most demonstrator rioters don't even have a clue about they they are rioting over. They don't even know the facts. They have been educated in the knowledge of Action News.

Okay, don't even get me started on that news station that is about 25 years behind the modern world. I can't believe how many people on phl.media defend that crap as news...like NBC10 is the only station in Philadelphia to sling shit. Hardly...

Now then...there can be no doubt that there are a handful of people...maybe even several hundred or thousand...that believe in whatever grievance they have against the G8, the WTO, the IMF, and/or the World Bank. But like New Kids on the Block, Lava Lamps, and the dot-com boom, everyone wants to hop on for the ride. Not to take away from the seriousness of the grievances, but it seems like these protests are a sort of fad of the moment.

I am rather surprised to learn that even British soccer hooligans are organized. For example, in a PBS radio piece, the reporter got a chance to follow with one of the 'defacto' leaders as they rampaged through the streets of a European town. When blocked by the police, why does the crowd move in unision in a new direction? There are actually leaders who direct this thing. At one point, the leader ordered his hooligan troops to disperse where upon the merged together in another location. That takes organization.

The fact that these anti-globalization anarchists can collect in various cities on cue - even have warehouses setup to support their demonstrators in some cities (was it Washington DC that undermined these support facilities with building inspectors?). These are indeed quite organized anarchists - much like 1930 Nazi party storm troopers.

Tw, you have a point but your also missing whats going on. The protest movement he is a member of is incredibly diverse, the media hates this coz it can't really sum it up or find a common spokesperson.

Regardless of how stupid the method is (and I never denied this guy wasn’t exactly bright) what most of these groups stand for is stuff we all would like - fairer governments in relation to corporations (i.e.: they don't own them), better environmental standards etc...Sure I don't believe that their method of doing this is correct, but its still good stuff, they are not trying to grab power (in most cases).
To be honest there is something in socialism, Sweden is a socialist state, higher taxes, but better public amenities, one of the lowest hard drug usage rates etc (I can start pulling more positive stats if you want but I have to be at a formal in an hour so).

The other thing is the overwhelming volume of protests and protesters are peaceful, we only generally see the worst. Your right, the big ones that got things done were pretty peaceful, and that will in most cases be correct. The violent fringe are mostly those that feel most disenfranchised by our society, it’s also something to cling to. The other thing is that ‘the great LEADERS' this movement has no leader, it has very diverse aims, it’s under no ones control, which makes it harder to stop such things. The recent events with adobe and that Russian programmer, as well as the arrest of all at a totally peaceful sit-in outside a logging company (not to mention the *special deals* that Nike and McDonalds, the two biggest corporate targets here have given to cops) have proven that states are often pawns to the companies that pay our elected leaders.

Italian cops have been very hard though, in one mass arrest at night while they were sleeping all but a couple of the protesters had to be taken to hospital and there was blood all over the walls.

There are anarchists and there are protesters, please note the difference.

Sorry but if you think meetings like the WTO (are about solving the issues above in a reasonably manner, I’m past being able to believe that. After the US's flat refusal of Kyoto (Gee, it might hurt the economy (i.e.: god), that is bad, never mind the fact were going to kill ourselves in the process of making all this wonderful money) G8 I’m not sure about, but until people in power make a real stand on some of these issues those fortresses are going to have to keep getting bigger coz the cries of shame are getting louder. I would not be surprised to see an attempt at a fully armed and organized raid at one of these soon.

And I read somewhere this guy was the son of a union official.

I think we admit to ourselves that the issues protestors are addressing hit very close to home for most human beings on this planet today. I also think that many of us feel the need to join the ranks and that this is already done by majority in some way or another. For example firmly expressing your views to friends/coworkers/bought officials.. that's the low end of the specter.. once the problems become more evident/persistent (environment getting fucked over by govs/corps., human/civil rights being slowly and steadily dissolved, etc), then I think more of us will move on to peaceful physical protests and beyond.....

This isn't necessarily a good thing though. Without a common goal, spokesperson, or target, the protests will continue to be as they are--somewhat organized, but with more dangerous fringe activity than needed.

Quote:

Sweden is a socialist state, higher taxes, but better public amenities, one of the lowest hard drug usage rates etc (I can start pulling more positive stats if you want but I have to be at a formal in an hour so).

Last I heard, the dollars are starting to dwindle in Sweden and Canada. Socialism truly is a wonderful concept, but it costs money.

Quote:

Sorry but if you think meetings like the WTO (are about solving the issues above in a reasonably manner, I’m past being able to believe that.

Damn jag...you're only 16...if you're this pessimistic now, wait til you're 40 ;)

Like Candide in the book by Voltaire, I still believe this is the best of all possible worlds. I knew damned good and well the US would never sign the Kyoto Protocol. Nor will the US sign off on the World Court deal involving prisoners that was going on a few months back. Nor will the US give what it truly should to the UN.

In 1914, the US was a big fan of isolationism, hence it took 3 years for us to join WW1. It's almost that way now. Lots of people freaked out over NAFTA, particularly unions...because they were afraid of jobs leaving the States. (That's a matter for another topic though.)

The point I'm making is that the US is slow to warm to a GLOBAL vision. Many folks (particularly Republicans/conservatives) don't look at the US as one cog in the global machine...they only want what's good for America. That may have been fine 70 years ago, but certainly not now. Our dues to the UN were held up for what? 2 years? All because Republicans didn't want to fund family planning issues within the UN (due to the possibility of abortion). Big business is lining the pockets of many politicians on both sides of the aisle...heaven forbid we clean up the air at the cost of capitalism. And actually, that's another perspective to look at--the US takes capitalism to great extremes.

But I still have faith that the US and the other members of the G8 will work together to make our world a better place for all people. I don't think it's fair to point the finger specifically at the G8 or the IMF, for example. As bureaucracies go, they try to do the best job they can within that red tape. The US is slow to warm up to things, but once the US is more isolated, they'll come around.

I won't deny that I have some skepticism, particularly because of the guy that was elected under suspicious pretenses here in the States. My other reason for trepidation is that the baby boomers started turning 55 this year...soon they'll be retiring. Their generation and the generation before it are THE capitalists--the folks driving the gas-guzzling SUVs, not caring about recycling, concerned with mass consumption. (Not all of them are like this of course, but this is an example.)

Your spirit is in the right place jag b/c you (as well as many others) obviously care about what is going on in our world. But if we lose any sense of optimism about the current times, the "powers that be" will seize upon it...and then nothing will ever change. I'm not all for the protests just yet, but I will try to do my part in other ways, such as my possible run for City Council. ;)

Anyone who wants to understand soccer hooliganism must read "Among the Thugs". It's a first-person account of a journalist assimilating into a group of the violent.

They do have designated leaders, but it's not like they democratically elect someone and hold board meetings. They have alpha males just like any pack, and the alphas have learned how to manipulate mob situations through years of weekly experience.

The book also describes, in horrific detail, what you get if you cross Italian police: a beating worse than any of the violence that comes from the mob. The author found himself on the receiving end when he didn't follow the mob correctly. Clearly the cops enjoyed the violence just as much as the hooligans.

Soccer hooligans remind me of tribes from millennia ago so much it’s not funny.....
The US now seems to be taking England’s stance for much of last centaury and the one before, a policy often described as 'splendid isolation', which suits me fine, there is no way in hell myself or anyone I know wishes in the US (apart from new York), all want to go to Europe that isn’t a corporate state.

*laughs, welcome to the screwed up generation, 99% are deeply apathetic about anything outside their own little lives and the other 1% are extremely bitter.

I hate to start throwing round overused and abused term but the Italian police are fucking fascist.

G8 may be able to do something, I don’t know enough about it but no business leaders are present so maybe they'll actually serve the interests of those who elected them instead of those who line their pockets oh so well. US politics are now a bought and sold resource, hard to have faith in that. Such meetings and organizations have become center points for protests because they are nice big targets and many different groups issues are covered, meaning you get one hell of allot of people on the ground (200,000 @ G8 I think?). In Melbourne they tried a system of letting protesters have a say inside the forum - but they did it in such a patronizing way (to the media some of the attendees called the protesters wild animals from inside the limos, while wearing Armani suits on the way back to their lear jets) that it had zero effect. Let them eat cake isn’t going to work in the end, and if something doesn’t change, history will repeat itself I fear.

On the other hand the fact we have time to protest about issues that don't effect as us as much (compared to French peasants, Russian peasants, pre-civil war America, French-occupied Vietnam) is good, and it says something good about society in general, just not those in power.


I'm not the kind who turns up to any old protest but I can tell you the mood on the ground is certainly getting uglier, there are more and more people saying 'this isn’t working, they don't want to listen, lets ramp it up to the next level' The next level is AK-47s, planned raids, high power internet attacks etc, and believe me there are the resources to do it too...

One of the things that *really* got me with the US election (apart from the Supreme court ruling it was legit to screw the voters by running out the clock then demonstrated how to do it) was that NAder was banned form attending, let alone participating in the presidential debates, the debates which were funded by the same corporations that gave so much $ to the two parties, talk about a duopoly.

I jsut try and make peopel actually interested in things outside the price of the latest MD..