Progressive Islam
 

In recent decades, a cultural and intellectual trend has emerged, expressing scepticism towards metanarratives which attempt to provide overviews of history, society and humanity. This trend has influenced thinking on socio-political issues and policies, with postmodernist scepticism particularly apparent in studies of gender, but with the same trends finding footholds in a whole range of issues, from international development to education.

Islam is a religion of metanarratives which express the aim of guiding believers in their everyday lives and also in their understanding of the world. Contemporary Muslims working and writing in English have attempted to respond to key socio-political issues with due regard to these grand metanarratives. However, some Muslims have felt it a matter of human and intellectual integrity to challenge or reintepret these metanarratives when confronting key contemporary issues. Frequently, their views have been met with hostility, ostracism and exile, and even murder.

Further information can be found via this links page, developed by a sociologist with a special interest in 'liberal' or 'progressive' Islam:

http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/LiberalIslamLinks.htm

:)

Could you repeat that without use of postmodern, deconstructionist bullshit?

Metanarrative?

Could you repeat your question when you have remembered the manners your mummy taught you, and attended a college where they teach people how to interact in a meaningful way with intellectually challenging texts?

     It's ok Wolf, I think I've got it. Read as: People seem insulted when they are told how to think. Read as: Women need to get back in their place.

     Look Tasneem, I respect views other than mine and your right to hold them. But you don't get any Martyr points for it. You might consider the rights of others to look at an overview of Muslim society, see women treated very badly by our standards, the ones we grew up with here, and judge by those standards. Often times we won't look any deeper into the culture. That's tough. I don't care much about the inner beauty of a culture that teaches half it's population that it should be subservient to the other half. You can say that makes me a bad person if you wish, that's your prerogative. The difference is I won't complain, cast any accusations or martyr myself in response.

I find your intepretation of the quotes you selected intriguing. Even quite unique.

Your understanding and response are coloured entirely by your own very stereotypical views of Islam. They have nothing to do with the original statement whatsoever.

Liberal Islam is a broadbased, grassroots response to an intellectually intransigent and reactionary current within Islam. This current is seen as 'the' Islam by people like you, Daniel Pipes and his friends in the Whitehouse. If you simply bothered to check the link I posted above, and taken more than a few seconds to reflect on that information, you might have posted something which was actually referred to the real world outside of your own head.

This is why this forum has collapsed. It has become dominated by articulate but intellectually vacuous bullies. I think the term 'right wing bullshitters' kinda sums it up really.

     Actually, I've based my opinions on the people I've met and what I've seen. I've known Muslims, here in the US, and not liked the way they treated women. I hope that is clear now.
     Granted, I haven't met any 'Liberal Islamics' however if you are an example I don't see the change. You use big words and name call. You have been insulting and have a clearly displayed double standard. For example, you were extremely condescending to Wolf for the use of the word 'Bullshit' but then use the term "right wing bullshitters" freely yourself and obviously that's okay.      You clearly lable me a bully here, as well as call me stupid albiet in a verbose way. Think about it. Why are you on the attack if I am the bully? I'm ready to here you out, but I expect you to live up to the standards you set for others. As you said, remember the manners your mummy taught you. I am neither right-wing nor intelectually vacuous. I'm ready to listen, just talk to me with decency and without condecension.
     I thank you for saying that I'm articulate though, I do try.
     Now, want to retry this in simpler terms and explain the 'Liberal Islamic Movement' in your own words?

No, this thread has collapsed because your a pompous ass that want to tell us what to think. :turd:

It's "you're", you old fart.

Isn't Islam that religion that teaches people to kill everyone?

Organized religion is the greatest scam ever sold in the history of mankind.

Scams have to have a mastermind, some person intentionally intending to deceive others. Now, I wasn't there when religion was invented, but I highly doubt it was intended to deceive. Most likely it was invented by people who couldn't accept the fact that they were ignorant.

Atheists are no better, of course.

Jesus...Mohammed...Buddha...Luther...any of them could have been con artists.

See, I told you dave still cares.:D

Got any evidence that might suggest it is so?

Liberal Islam?

Is that like Iranian moderates? As in "The Ayatollah Khomeni thanks you on the behalf of the Iranian moderates".

What Islam needs is a really good and deep internal schism, followed by a splintering into many sects with profoundly different basic beliefs, followed by a general disillusionment with the religion and its practices in general. Then, and only then, might it become profoundly less harmful.

I don't think any of them qualify as con artists simply because they didn't benefit from their work. If fact most suffered from it. The true con men are the ones that *organized* these teachings into religions for fun and profit. Once there is a profit then they're a target and tool for every con man that comes along.

Like, for example, L. Ron Hubbard.

and the sacred cow you rode in on, Whit.

:eek:

well, crap.

what am i gonna do with my authentic and recently purchased prayer stick?

For the record, I don't think the people I mentioned are scam artists...they certainly could have been, but based on my knowledge of them, I'd say no.

Juju, it really depends on how you look at each of them. You could take what's out there in terms of evidence, and argue it either way.

Put it on eBay.

     Feh, there are no sacred cows. At least not to non-religious types like me. Besides, if you're not ready to discuss something, don't bring it up on a discussion board. Seems kinda obvious now that I read it...

I'm sure that was a rhetorical question, wasn't it? 'Cause if it wasn't....heh, heh, heh...;)

Hey, that Joseph Smith guy sounds like a con man to me. Whoo! Thats one helluva narrative, meta or otherwise.

Hey thread starter, buck up. That your cited Islamic practitioners seem to have at least acknowleged individual human rights and freedoms, with the emphasis on individual, is good news. Now they need to effect cultural progress to stop that honor killing.

Anyone know how many different streams of thought flow through the 'Muslim world?'
I assume, probably because of my modern-western bias, that there are as many splinters in Islam as there are in Christianity, there's just a few that are somewhat more vocal about their beliefs (and by somewhat, I mean shouting so loud they can't hear anyone/thing else).
Is this true? Are there schisms between different parts of Islam? If not, who wants to nail some theses on a mosque door and start some?

Urge to comment, rising...

If it wouldn't be a blatant thread hijacking, I might have much to say on this topic.

Heh. Yes, there are many different groups that all consider themselves Muslims. The most obvious (and the one that garners the most media attention right now) is the Shi'a vs Sunni schism. (Most media sources call it Shi'ite; this is no longer correct, in the same manner that Israelite is no longer correct to describe an Israeli. Shi'a get offended if you refer to them as Shi'ite.)

Just picked a page at random ... (yeah, I have a Koran. And a Bible, and a Book of Mormon, and some Eastern karmic stuff ... us witches tend to be well read, right El?) I was not specifically looking for this type of reference. Just did that flip the book open and point thing.

Although a 'softer' interpretation is certainly possible, sounds kind of ominous to me. (as is the capitalization of "We" in the second paragraph. Most religious texts capitalize the name of their deity, but this is the first time I've seen a reference to the followers capitalized.)

My take:

Everyone is going to want to be a muslim, whether they like it or not. They can have their fun now along with their false beliefs, but god's gonna spank 'em on the ass soon enough.

If any nation destroyed by Muslim conquerers, it was ordained by god and fate beforehand ... anyone have a different take on this?

Sounds to me like "We" can do no wrong. Whatever the hell "We" do is OK because "We" were preordained to do it.
That's pretty scary.:eek:

religion of peace ... after everyone else is converted or dead.

"I'm the chosen people!"
"No! I'm the chosen people!"
"Nuh uh! I'm the chosen!"
"Get out! You aren't chosen! I am!
"How dare you!"
"How dare YOU!"
"Huh! Just wait, you'll be sorry."
"yeah right, your unchosen self will by WAY sorrier."
"Oh yeah?"
"yeah!"

There is a fall class I saw posted today that purports to explore the possibilities, probabilty of an Islamic "reformation". Looking at internal change and modernization- like the people our threadstarted chose to highlight. Change is good.

Cool. Remind them to nail it to the door.....and run like hell.;)

I would not make a very big deal out of it. I think you will find this kind of "scary"stuff in almost every religion. I would suggest that this is the reward for becoming a "member"of such a religion.
In order to go through all the trouble of praying and refraining from a lot of activities on gets promised eternal life, bliss and of course to conquer the fools who did not believe!!

This is not only so for muslims, but for chritians, jews, buddist and a few aothers as well.

I would say that every religion is agrassive, even hinduism with theire aggresive "not violence"thing

Hi MA, welcome aboard:beer:
I think your right about every faith having zealots but the Jehovas Witness zealots seldom come to the door with an AK-47.
The biggest difference seems to be most religious fanatics strive to bring you into the fold whereas the Islamic fanatics just want to kill you for not being in the fold already.
Now I'm sure I'm making an unfair blanket aspersion of Islamics but if a Purple Midget keeps hitting me in the name of Purple and the rest of the Purple Midgets say nothing then as far as I'm concerned all Purple Midgets are bad.

Purple midgets ARE bad. Don't you watch the news?

Green!
 

Purple midgets very bad. GREEN midgets much better.

Putting the fun about midgets aside for a moment: I personally have never anybody on my doorstep with an AK-47. I think that islam is a way and a language to bind the forcess oposed to the US or better said the Pax Americana which is forced upon the (Arabic) world by the US and their allies.
For the man in the street in Bagdah, Cairo, Kabul or any other Arab country, the americans are the bad guys. See for yourself on the newnetwork Al-Jazeera, if you dont believe me.
This attitude is a result of the way America has conducted their forreign affairs in the region: supporing dictatorships (Iran, Irak), supproting a royal family without real power (Saudi Arabia), not doing anything in Libanon at the time (in which time by the way you could very well find a christian with an AK-47 at your doorstep) or of course Israel.
The onterforce we are all aware of since 9-11 the much more are liberation movement that a religious movement. The destinction is very relevant here.
Liberal moslims were and are very outspoken about the non-use of force or war. I therefore do not agree with you that the others were silent: they were not, even not is the islamitic countries. You can not jugde an entire faith on the behaviour of some lunatics woh happen to use the same ideology, but for other reasons.

I have not seen this. All I've seen is the Muslim leaders saying it is Allah's will.

Maybe this is where it al begins. The soft spoken ones, with the leberal and non violent approach, are really to soft or not interesting to the general media or public.
I have heard them on TV and read their opinions in the newspapers. I think one muslim who is opposed and does speak out is enough to take away your general remark anyway.
By making general remarks about a large part of the world population, one cannot start building any trust.
It is by building trust and respect between moslims and non-muslims that one can put a real and to the muslim terrorist movement, by taking away the feelings that feed it.

     The way I see it is that people (middle-easterners in this case) often blame those they see as having something (US) for them (middle-easterners) not having it. In this case a small portion of the Middle East blaming the US. Now, these few people then spread their views by talking to those they are closely connected too through a social structure, in this case religion. Thus the views of the few have become the views of the many, but not all. However, on the other side of the ocean all we hear is the threats and all we see are the acts of violence.
     Here's the catch though, when we respond to these actions there is an out cry of "We're not all like that!" This is true. Now, how are we in the US supposed to separate out who is who when the people coming after us are saying it's Muslim vs. Christian? Heck, I'm don't consider myself christian or even religious in any way, yet I'll get killed just as easily. So will my kids for that matter.
     To restate my question, if you are attacked by a group that claims to represent a larger group, and you know they participate in said group, how do you separate the good from bad in said group?
     Blah... that sentence was way to long... I think the point stands though. Hope it makes sense outside my head...

Yep, I always judge christianity as a whole by those who speak about it to me. And of course, those are always the jerks. I imagine Islam is much the same way.

Yeh, I got one buddy that's a Muslim. Guess what? He shuts the fuck up about it, and he's a cool dude! He doesn't try to convert or anything.

I think that, as a whole, people just don't like others' views being crammed down their throats, be it by killing infidels or riding their bikes to my house in the middle of the fucking winter and interrupting my jerk-off time.

Dave, is he reluctant to discuss it if you ask? Or haven't you asked.

Well Michael, stories like this certainly don't help.:(

No, he'll discuss it, but in a completely non-preachy way. If you have any questions that won't offend, I'll ask him. (I don't want to set him off - you know how these Muslims get when you make them angry! :) )

No thanks Dave, I know a couple myself. They're pretty quiet about it but get quite animated when you ask them why they're terrorists.:D

No, I Agree this is horrible and would like to add that apparently even (some) muslims agree to that. So, as whit and juju point out: don't judge the whole group by the actions of the most prominent morons, who claim to represent the group!