Another story about appalling Muslim behavior in France
 

http://www.msnbc.com/news/950453.asp

Now, what can we do to comdemn this culture to the trash bin of history?

Re: Another story about appalling Muslim behavior in France
 

I think the last paragraph says it best:

The problem is that to help the women of the cites in the long run, you have to help the men—not only to find jobs and education, but to learn to live in Western societies. And precious little has been done about that.

You'd make a good gutter press journalist - highlighting Islam as the alleged source of this kind of behaviour. Let's face it, the Oklahoma bomber had links to Elohim City, but did anyone go around reporting this as 'appalling Christian behaviour in the USA'.

In spreading hate through distorting the truth in this way, you make yourself not much better than the criminals you condemn. Utter hypocracy, and shame on you!

McVeigh was a lone wacko. This is group behavior that is echoed in the countries and cultures that these assholes come from.

Your instinctive but misplaced respect for cultures not your own enables this kind of behavior. Shame on you.

I feel so dirty ...

Oh wait, no I don't.

I've been spending a lot of time dealing with a child whose only 'crime' was behaving like an american teenager (and not one of the bad, acting out, drinking, smoking weed, having sex kinds). Her father and brothers were physically abusive and in the process of shipping her back to their (muslim) homeland to "make her right". (We suspect that we have either circumvented an honor killing or, more likely, a hastily arranged marriage).

It is a problem of Islam. Undertoad did not write the original article. He merely provided one line of commentary.

This isn't necessarily a problem of Islam, it is a problem of some followers of Islam (among others).

"McVeigh was a lone wacko. This is group behavior that is echoed in the countries and cultures that these assholes come from..."

McVeigh surely echoes the gun-toting, survivalist, socially retarded streak of insanity running through the heartland of the USA bivle-belt. To suggest this man was a lone nutter, whilst out of control immigrant Arab youth somehow echo some mythically evil Arab culture is simply nonsense.

The world is a complicated place. It isn't made up of goodies and baddies. If you really expect anyone to believe that the venomous, anecdotal nonsense you have written here is any respect in touch with the real world, or likely to lead a realistic solution to social problems anywhere, then you are deluded.

From your little ivory tower in the UK you expound on what's happening in the bible belt and the Islamic nations, hmmm. Have a hamburger.:p

Oh I get it now. It's wrong to be oversimplifying and anecdotal about repeated gang rapes -- but McVeigh was obviously produced by the bible belt culture.

I guess those Oklahomans kinda deserved it, then, eh?

I'm more afraid of your soccerball-toting, socially retarded, revisionist, cup-final fans. Oh my God! Lookout!!! Mr. Project has a soccer^H^H^H^H^H^Hfootball!!!

Zing! Excellent counter-point! You should have gone on to mention all of the Christain immigrants in European coutries, and how their Christian-dense neighborhoods are rife with such bombings, indicating that it's a defect in the culture, not just a case of "every-country-has-it's-share-of-nutballs." And don't forget all the Christain-ghetto gang-rapes you hear about in the news, and how Christain immigrants force their women to cover themselves and/or imprison them at home.

Sometimes different is just different, and sometimes different is fucked up. Muslim culture tends to have a larger-than-usual share of the latter, I think. I think Islam as a religion is a fine, worthy religion (if you're into worship at all, which I'm not), but the culture has some severe, unignorable impairments in the human-rights department.

Whereas I think it's flawed as a religion because it teaches that those different than you are bad. Just like Christianity is flawed, and - hey - all religions are flawed. I think we oughta just outlaw it, and kill all the zealots. World would be a much nicer place, and we'd be down to a population of a few hundred million.

It's unfortunate that many of the ethnic groups and cultures we find barbaric are also predominately Islamic in the faith department. That leads to refering to them by their common denominator which is Islamic. That of course leads to a defensive posture by Islamics that are not also barbarians because they feel they're being unfairly attacked. And the beat goes on.
Maybe we need a new name for the bad Islamics. Badlamics?

The problem is not with the religions themselves, it's when they become entangled with statecraft. The seperation between church and state allows things to run fairly and efficiently. We see a big problem today in Iran's Mullahcracy. Many religious leaders essentially being assigned territories that they control economically and religously. It sounds more like a mafia then government.

The collision of Islam and the western world seems to be at the root of this. The west offers opportunities [and of course pitfalls] to everyone regardless of gender or ethnicity, and this threatens some male members of the Islamic faith in ways they can't cope with. My advice to male Muslims: Chill out. Relax. Trust Allah in the way you have been spouting [walk the talk]. I guarantee you'll like women even better after a little exposure to western culture. This isn't the end of your world.

Christianity is supposed to be about fellowship and goodwill, but if you mix in control, you will attract people who seek it. I see little difference between bad Christians and bad political figures.



Please kill me, I said statecraft.

Our newest Cellar member Saraax is a American, educated, female Muslim. Things that would get her stoned to death in some countries. I hope she posts on this. :D

Well, that's a grand slam just about anywhere. At least we just hand out stupid looks and ignorant comments for 3 of the 4 here in the US.

"Islamofascists" was once proposed, but drew all kinds of fire because it actually alludes to Islam.

How un-PC.

It drew fire because the only things these evil buggers have in common with those evil buggers is their hatred of Jews and their love of street fights. If we use the label that loosely, we could easily label the US a fascist state with our growing militarism and developing control economy. All we need is a charasmatic leader tramping around in military clothing... oops wrong thread.

Damn it, that's it Griff. I'm tellin' W on you.:p

Girls need to kick some cultural butt. A committed investment in secular education for women is key all over the world. Revolution. Political power and a change of law.
Cultures that abuse the basic rights of women and children align with many religions to justify their crimes. Islam has been embraced by many misogynistic tribal cultures and the fundamentalists are flairing. Rape, kidnap and sale, torture, imprisonment, murder are all OK, often called for. That really pisses me off.

That must've been warch I heard on The World the other day...it IS produced by Minnesota Public Radio, after all.

ok, after almost a year of silence, I figure I might as well weigh in on this...since this is my master's thesis, after all. I'll admit that that may lead me into territories of bias, although I attempt to remain fair.

Undertoad, I respect you, but you are grossly oversimplifying things. Are there huge Muslim communities throughout the world raping girls everywhere? If I recall correctly, that article attempted to show that Muslim animosity toward Jews was ripe in the ghettos of Paris, where a large number of Algerian and Lebanese have sought a better life. It's about culture shock, on one hand, and basic human carnage on the other. And it's about the youth soaking up the worst parts of their heritage, mass culture and ignorance, relying on the words of extremists for guidance.

But nevermind that for a second. Islam, as interpreted by some, is actually very tolerant - much like some Christian sects are way more tolerant than others. It doesn't teach that "those that are different from you are bad" - it leans more towards tolerating their differences. (For example, the sop for Muslim empires in the Arab world was to allow different religious groups to thrive, albeit with fewer rights. Hence, the formerly huge and influential Jewish community of Baghdad, and the sprinklings of Maronites and Coptics throughout the Arab world.) However, I've never really bought the line that the rules about women are meant to protect women from men. An example would be the coverings, which are theoretically worn to protect women from men's instincts - if the men don't see those sexy legs, they won't automagically think with their dicks and set up for the grand rape scene.

Uryoces, what you're talking about was built pretty clearly in Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations - and then discredited pretty quickly. It seems intuitive that people who only view Western culture from the outside would see it as either a pinnacle of desire, a threat, or somewhere in between. Following this, it would seem that jealousy would turn into animosity and merge with the latter situation - thus leading to the Clash Huntington talked about.

If that was the case, though, there wouldn't be a burgeoning middle class in Lebanon and Syria. And every Arab (or, in the gross generalities espoused pretty much everywhere these days, every Muslim) would be touting a gun, a grenade, and a burning American flag. It's not like that, despite what the media makes it seem. There <i>have</i> been female leaders of Muslim nations (Pakistan and Bangladesh come to mind), but not enough. And of course, everyone's rights need to be expanded, as long as the general cultural sensibility is protected (or else it will be fought every step of the way; see the fight over gay rights in the US and the Anglican church).

The real problem here is the generalities. Calling it an Islamic problem doesn't actually address the problem, but offloads it onto something simpler and easier to grasp. It takes detailed examination to actually understand society, or what drives a social group. Take this example: Strains of anti-Israel that have morphed into anti-Jewishness in an economically stagnant immigrant, minority community that is basically shut out of society (no melting pots in Europe) has ended up in violent acts and thuggishness. Ridiculous, indefensible, non-condonable - but none of that matters if the motivations aren't understood and eliminated. And that means punishment; that means rehabilitation; that means prevention.

And Maggie, I've said it before, but that word is one of the worst misuses of terminology I've ever heard.

Well Hermit, what you say sounds rational and logical enough to almost be self evident. But, how are you going to get that into a 15 second sound byte (bite?):D

This discussion is a little over my head. But I do have a question:

Undertoad, did you actually mean to infer that part of the problem is Islam, or did you just mean to suggest that part of the problem is Arab tradition and culture?

I just ask 'cause everyone is saying that you're accusing Islam, but I don't get that from what you said.

Are there huge Muslim communities throughout the world raping girls everywhere?

Only in about a third of the world it seems; the places where such things are tolerated, such as tribal Pakistan, East Africa, and some bad sections of Paris.

I admit to using the broad brush generalization. I do find it interesting that I wrote a message describing the year-long repeated rape and brutalization of an 11-year-old and the part the people find offensive is where I generalize.

The most offensive approach would have been to avoid any reference at all to culture. No, the most offensive approach would have been to not forward the message at all.

w00t, 10 points to hermit for a very accurate cross-section of the issue. Considering you're doing your thesis on this stuff, it's probably a good thing you can objectively analyse the situation or you'd kinda be screwed.....but i digress.

The point I think hermit missed (and since i spend a fair chunk of time in France i'll fill in) is the severly under-represented socioeconomic factors here. These places are slums of the worst type, gigantic ugly housing projects. It's one of the most hostile environments i've ever been in (including war-ravaged Cambodia and vietnamese slums). The police travel around APCs, when they do at all. These are massive lawless tracks on the borders of the 'city of love'. Is it the slightest bit suprising that such (undenaibly) despicable behaviour goes on in areas that have basically reverted to barberism. Islam is far from perfect i'm not denying that but it's not the cause of this kinda stuff, the environment is. If anything Islam is at most a catalyst.

I know i've been flitting in and out of this place all year but things have finalyl settled down a little and i tend to be in the same place for more than a week these days so expect more of the usual far-left-wing trash (although i'm going for a shooters licence, does that discredit me?) out of me - things are back to normal ;)

Sweet.. Jaguar with a gun! Hey, how about a picture of you firing one? That would be funny, after all those arguments over it.

I always knew there was hope for the boy ... enjoy yourself, jag, and pay attention to the safety rules.

I dunno wolf, armed leftists can be a source of concern. ;)

I guess a big question is whether Islam was as big a factor in the (rise and) fall of Arab civilization as the Catholic writer Hilaire Belloc believed Catholicism was in the rise of the West. We tend to see Arab culture as Islamic culture but is that a broad generalization or just a clear view from the outside?

I'm definately going to have to read this Hilaire Belloc guy. Sounds interesting. I think the equivalent about Arab civilization is Albert Hourani's A History of the Arab Peoples. I'm reading it right now, and it's excellent.

Anyway.

As far as your question goes...I'm not quite sure what you're asking (haven't been awake for very long). I think, though, you're asking about the relationship between Arabic culture and Islamic culture. Am I right, or am I just making myself look like an idiot?

The easiest way to put it is...Arabic culture is Islamic culture, but Islamic culture is not necessarily Arabic culture. The general definition for the Arab world is the Arabian peninsula and North Africa. This means that some of the most prominent Islamic societies are not included in the Arabic world, like Iran, Turkey, or the two largest concentrations of Muslims - Indonesia and India. So Islamic culture tends to be different in each of these places, especially since different sects are more prominent in different areas. Most of the Arab world, for example, is Sunni, with pockets of Shi'ism in Yemen, Iraq and Lebanon; and bits of Sufism in Egypt and Syria. Outside of that, though, Sufism is huge in Turkey and Africa; Shi'ism is prominent in Iran, obviously, and parts of the Indian subcontinent.

On the other hand, Arabic culture is obviously influential in Islamic communities. Arabic is the 'revealed language' of the Koran, so Muslims are required to learn it. And as the first Arabian empires spread into Asia and Africa, they brought parts of their outlook with them.

Belloc's book, Europe and the Faith is a lot shorter and so far (just started it) his method and language are interesting but obviously aimed at a Catholic audience. I don't remember Hourani's book making any assumptions about the audience. I meant to re-read that after 9-11 but it keeps getting bumped to the back of the list.

I think you're right about Islam being the organizing principle of Arab culture but hadn't made the language link to the other muslim societies which helps explain how Arab radicalism is welcomed without a central authority giving it credibility.

Maybe because the first part didn't surprise anyone.

Hey UT, you never answered my question. Are you suggesting that the problem lies with Islam, or with Arabic culture?

Yes, he is.

I believe it's a problem of the culture of Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam, but the problem has spread to all men who wear bow ties.

.

OK, it's hard to know. Because: while we in the US believe that our religion, our government, and our culture are entirely separate, radical Islamism merges them all.

And harder still, I think, because we generally figure we have free will, whereas a lot of those folks believe that Allah has already worked out what's going to happen and they're just living it all out.

Everything I needed to know about Farrakhan I learned from his back list at

http://www.fadetoblack.com/farrakhan/albums.html

Have a listen! (Real Audio)

http://www.fadetoblack.com/farrakhan/Isshe.ram

Thought I'd share this quote.


- H.L. Mencken

Would be kinda funny, i'll grab the digicam this sat if i remember.

It's stuff like this that makes me think the arab culture has some severe problems. The 'muttawa' are the Saudi religious police, aka "The Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and Prevention of Vice."
I can't even verbalize exactly why, I just know that this kind of shit is wrong.

THEY say, the people WANT it.:turd:

Don't do an enemy from the image of the enemy
 

I just finished some studies about Islam and my opinion is that, part of the Muslim societies behaviour regarding human rights department, is deeply embedded in the character of the religion and in the very alive Middle Ages Islamic practices and traditions.
We are facing a cultural conflict, where Islamic aggressive and unmodernized religion plays an fundamental role.

Welcome to the Cellar, Wind. I've got 2 questions.
First why did you sent me an email addressed to Juju?
Secondly, your profile says Romania but your email address says UK. Student?

Hello everybody
 

Hello to xoxoxoBruce and to all the others.
Uhh... I've done some silly things, Bruce and I'll repair the misunderstandings by anwering your questions.
First, I was reading some messages from this web page, when I decided to unswer to a question put by Juju( and this was: Is the Arabic culture the same with Islam?). So I intended to answer this question to Juju but it seems I did an unintentional mistake. Sorry (I have the excuse of the beginner I guess).
To the second question I can answer that I'm fro m Romania, but I chosed as the main language, the british english and that's way, the e-mail ends with co.uk. And I'm a student at the University now.
So, I think you know now what you wanted. I will try to take active part to the disscusion around here and that by communicating sincerely we all will have something to win.

No problem, Wind.
Don't worry about your English, if we can't understand what you are trying to say, we'll ask.
And if we sound like we misunderstood, tell us. It will work out OK.:thumb:

Yeah...even native English speakers have problems using the language.

Eastern Europe is the new Western Europe!

Plus werewolves.:thumb: