6/23/2003: Bloody antler trade
 

http://cellar.org/2003/stagsaw.jpg

In the distant land of Gorny Altai, Russia, somewhere in Siberia near Mongolia, the locals steal the antlers from the local deer. They do this not because they like antler-less deer, but because there is a big trade in antlers. Here they lead a stag into this strange contraption which stops it from moving at all.

http://cellar.org/2003/stagsaw2.jpg

They saw the antlers off with a regular hand saw.

http://cellar.org/2003/stagsaw3.jpg

A few of the locals surprise the tourists with this practice, which probably gives the stag a chance to return some bad karma through blood-borne disease and parasites.

Remarkably, this is the major export in this region of the world. The antlers go mostly to Asia for use in traditional medicines. (The stag lives on, none the worse for it all.)

Reuters feature story

NONE the worse?
 

I wouln't say "none the worse". He probably feels pretty bad for a while, and gets no hot does that year.:mad:

This could be bad in the sense that the antlers havn't fallen off naturally. If they'renot swabbing the end with antibiotics, it would be nice to see them smear the end with latex paint to seal it. Preferably not white latex...

I read the article and it mentions

"Some deer die from shock during the de-horning but in this case the stag's stumps were treated with salt and the animal was released back into the lush mountains to grow new antlers -- which one day will be culled again."

So, some are the worse for it and how about a nice dash of salt on the fresh wound!

The article also mentions that some Russians mix the blood with vodka. Not surprising as they seem to mix vodka with everything! Really brings meaning to a Bloody Mary.

Besides messing with the deer's mind, I wonder how this practice effects things like mating. Typically male deer and other horned mammals grow horns as part of the courtship ritual when finding a companion to mate with. I would imagine that this deer will be sitting the season out.

Lot of mixed up info in this article. Antler and horn are not interchangable and I don't believe either one has nerves so pain is not an issue as far as the cutting or salt goes. The bleeding from the neck is a common practice in many parts of the world for domestic livestock. They call them farms but I think they're more free range herds than what we consider farms. Damage to the animals psyche would be the same as an escape from a bear or lion or maybe branding. Aren't blood baths a russian tradition since 1918? Why is that kid in the back smiling?

Unfortunately, I don't think that's correct. Before deer antlers get hard, they are a live appendage and cause considerable pain when lopped off. Check out this exerpt from here:

<blockquote>Antlers are defined as the appendages which grow annually from the pedicle formation of the frontal bone of deer. They are therefore quite unlike the horns of cattle, sheep and goats, which do not regrow if removed correctly. Antlers also develop and mature in a manner different to horns and broadly two stages of antler development are recognised: velvet antler and hard antler.

Velvet antler is defined as growing antler which contains an abundant blood and nerve supply and which has a fully intact skin with a covering of fine soft hair. The surgical removal of velvet antler without some form of anaesthesia will cause pain and distress to the animal.

Hard antler is the antler when growth has ceased, calcification has occurred, and the skin,nerve and blood supply are no longer functional. This is when the antler has no live skin at its base. Hard antler can be removed above the pedicle without causing any pain or bleeding. Hard antlers are shed naturally just before new velvet antlers begin to develop from the pedicle.</blockquote>

Frankly, I find this disgusting.

Yes the guy standing in the back ground does look very suspicious and devious. Dirty Russian:eek:

I stand corrected. Reading that linc made me laugh. When any government anywhere gets involved, they sure can write rules at great length. You'd think they got paid by the line. ;)

Eastern woodies
 

I am surprised no one has commented on the "medicine" that is made from the deer antlers. They are used to cure Bob Dole's problem:E.D. It is all about the male erection industry, don't you know.

FYI: The Jackson Hole boy scout troop is the richest boy scout troop in the nation, by far. Each year, the boy scouts are allowed to collect the antlers left on the ground at the national elk preserve.

I personaly can't attest to deer or elk antler's efficacy. Since most of Asia is horny for the stuff, it is probably more than a wives tail.

Dirty Russian
 

"Dirty Russian"
That's when you mix the deer blood and vodka and the olive juice together and a shot of Tabasco!

YUM

Like anyone really gives a shit what animals "feel" right? If they do, they're labled an activist and all the "normal people" mock them. People don't care where their food/medicine/whatever comes from, so long as it's convenient and some one else does the "dirty work" for them. :finger: I hate people. I really do.

Quzah.

I'm a meat eater, but I do care about how the animals feel. I'm trying to be better. Really.

For example, take one of the most common foods these days - chicken. The conditions they're brought up in at places like Perdue and Tyson are pretty fuckin' bad. So then I read about this place called Bell & Evans, who lets chickens reach their slaughter size naturally, without any hormones or anything. They're kept in roomy and comfy places instead of being packed into one of those football-field sized cages that holds god knows how many. Everything about their chicken raising is humane. Now, the chicken costs more, but it's not prohibitively expensive, and I have a relatively clean conscience when I bite down into a burrito packed with their meat. We <b>are</b> higher on the food chain, and I have no problem with eating animals. But if there's a more humane way to do the whole raise & slaughter thing (and there is), I'm all for it.

More info at http://www.bellandevans.com

Also, nothing can beat the taste of naturally raised chicken. Their eggs are delicious, too.

Hmm... omelette.

Well, I happen to agree. It's a better taste, to me. But honestly, I like any chicken. My main reason for eating Bell & Evans is that they do (mostly) right by the chicken, and I want to support that.

That's very nice of yours. To me, it's all about the taste :D

That makes us even.

The problem with chickens in a roomy environment is they like to beat each other up. I met a man that made a fortune making plastic chicken coop window covers that filtered the light so the chickens could not see red. If a chickens see blood on another chicken, they'll peck it to death.:(

That's why most of these huge enclosures are dark. Chickens freak out in the light.

the other option is to use only red light. then they don't know when their random pecking actually draws blood (which would then cause a problem). So since its all red all the time they act fine.

Though you'd think they'd go nuts eventually (if chickens are capable of that). Sorta like the Seinfeld with the Kenny Rogers Roasters sign across the street.

That's why they just cut their beaks off. It's fairly common practice. Like "stunning" cattle with stun guns or other assinine ways of killing them for food. The bottom line is the bottom line. Most businesses could care less if it's "nice", they just want to save a few pennies here and there. That's why shit like mad cow shows up. Because they want to safe a few bucks on feed, so they feed cows their intestines and shit mixed in their food. Then they wonder why Bad Things(TM) like mad cow happen to hit their animals.

People are just stupid. Shrug.

Quzah.

They don't actually cut their beaks off. Debeaking is a myth.

Usually cattle are killed with a captive bolt mechanism. "Stun guns" are used for milking bulls, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, cattle are very tasty (especially a nice porterhouse), chickens are less tasty but still good if prepared correctly, and I'm not losing any sleep over eating either one.

How come if I click on Quzah's search link, the second thing I get is a <B>video</B> of a debeaking? The other searches I've done show nothing but clear cut evidence that debeaking exists somewhere... Furthermore, I do a search on "debeaking myth" and don't find anyone else saying that debeaking is a myth.

Hmmm. :confused:

The video is only true if you believe it to be.

I present to you further evidence of this phenomenon:

http://www.cellar.org/showthread.php...6520#post46520

(Read from that post to the end of the thread.)

We should teach our children, from a very early age to begin chasing down and killing chickens with their bare hands. Mom will gladly prepare it for the child once its dead, but the children need to understand where the food comes from.

Anyone wanna go cow huntin?

Oh, I see you were just trying to get back at Quzah for not believing you have ten fingers. I read that thread before, but I didn't want to get into it.

I must say I still don't believe debeaking is a myth. But, for what it's worth, I believe you have ten fingers.

:D

I raised cattle, pigs, sheep, chickens, turkeys, rabbits and horses.
Always took care of them. Cleaned, primped, showed, fed and cleaned up after them, every day. Always treated them like family. They were very nice. Nicer than people. Then I ate them, except the horses.

I don't think I could eat horse normally.

Chickens are stupid. Dumber than cows. And there were all the things the native americans said about the stupidity of the settler's livestock... They not only have to be debeaked, but de-stacked too. Yes, chickens will stack on top each other until the bottom ones die. I don't really feel bad about something as stupid as a chicken dying.

I especially don't when they are covered in a batter composed of secret ingredients and deep fried.

Good for you. Honestly, I don't feel bad when I hear about people dying from Mad Cow, Salmonella, Botulism, either. But then, to each his own I always say. :)

Quzah.

More people still die from not eating at all than die from those things...

Says you. Starvation is a myth.

Good for you! You have no reason to feel bad about them dying...as long as you're eating them.

Would you feel bad about a severely retarded human being dying? I guess if the person was really tasty you wouldn't care.

You've clearly not spent that much time around the severely retarded.

Wasn't it the head of PETA who said something along the lines of "If I was on a sinking ship and had the choice of saving a smart dog or a retarded baby, I'd save the dog?"

Well, consider this thought: People who are for "assisted suicide" feel that they should have the right to kill themselves when their "quality of life" is below a given point, the point being one that they decide upon.

Consider people who are on life support. The same applies here. Peole make the decision for them because they are unable to decide for themselves, if their "quality of life" is below a given point, where it is better to "let them die".

Given the above, is it reasonable to assume that there is a point at which the "quality of life" for a, as you put it, "retarded person" would be better off left to die?

You have to weigh the severity of the situation. That's what they all do I suppose. I imagine everyone has a point some where that if the QOL is "too low", they would be compelled to think that "Being-X" is better off dead.

Before you say it's not true, let me prove it to you. Every day you decide which has more value: You going hungry, or you killing something, directly or indirectly to eat, assuming you aren't a strict vegan or fruitatarian. Thus, you have made a decision that Being-X is better off dead than alive.

Taken with the above context, is it inconceivable that such a situation would arise, that you'd save a dog over a "retarded person"?

No? How about your favourite dog over a near vegitable state "retarded person" who is a total stranger?

After all, some people say their pets are like children.

Oh, I guess I'm obliged to comment on the PETA picture above for some bizarre reason. Here you go: Wow. Impressive. It amuses me to no end to watch all the "meat eaters" go to extremes to "prove" that they have some right to eat whatever they feel like, or that they're vastly superior to all other life forms. Somehow this picture fails to prove the latter, and for the former, I could care less.

Quzah.

Do you even think about what you type? This makes absolutely no sense in any context.

Quzah.

I've worked with people who have various disabilities (mild to severe) for years, but that is beside the point.

I was just trying to say that "Because it's (he/she/they) stupid," is no justification for killing.

Also, I value human life above other animals. There is no justification of it other than I'm biased, because I am human.

I'm not surprised you don't get it. That seems to be a trait you have.:p

Botulism is most often associated with green beans. Salmonella can also be vegetable-borne.

As for Mad Cow, I stay away from offal. Steak doesn't contain brain.

what's worse: humanely killing one domesticated cow to get 300 pounds of meat, or brutally murdering thousands of innocent, wild insects for one stinking tomato?;)

No, no, no...you don't *kill* them...you simply grow your food in a wholesome and biologically safe organic manner which discourages the insects from eating your tomatoes in the first place.

I'm all for organic tomatoes, especially with bacon and lettuce and mayonnaise on some nicely toasted wheat bread. Lots of bacon.

Don't forget you have to feed the cow... 2500 pounds of grain to raise a cow for slaughter. How many insects do we have to murder just to produce this grain, to feed an animal... to produce "food" that really isn't that useful to humans (albeit tasty to many)?

If only life was fair. I lived in Washington State during the infamous Jack-In-the-Box E. Coli outbreak of 1993. Several children died, including one child who according to the news, had "never eaten a hamburger." The child had caught the illness from a playmate who had eaten a tainted hamburger. (I have been a vegetarian since I was 12. But I remember wondering if somehow I could come down with the illness when it was in the news).

A dear friend of my mother's in SE MN died of Creutzfeld-Jakob (Mad Cow). We were never really sure how he got it. Maybe he ate British beef once or contracted it some other way. He was not vegetarian. But I don't think he deserved to die.

I heard a piece on NPR last year about they're trying to get permission to autopsy more people that die of Alzheimers from the kin. The preliminary results showed that almost 15% really had Mad Cow. It caught my interest because my Dad died from Alzheimers a few months earlier but I was in traffic in NY state with nothing to write on/with. By the time I got to MA, I couldn't remember the details. I must have it too.:rolleyes:

I'm sure we would have heard more about it if that suggestion came to anything.

And what about all that poor grain? What, animals have rights, but plants don't? That's pretty freaking prejudiced if you ask me. Yeah, those vegetarians really "care".

Plant Killer!!
 

The Dictators do a song called, "Plant Killer," about people like me. My "friend" likes to point at me and sing along with it too. But the truth is everybody eats plants (I don't care what kind of hardcore carnivore you are). Humans NEED to eat plants to survive. I'm sure of this. Meat is unnecessary, and it is a luxury for the minority of the planet's human inhabitants.

You miss the point of my post entirely. I do my part for all that "poor grain" by not contributing to the waste of it on livestock. Ultimately, I consume a lot less of that grain than you do.

Whether animals have rights is another debate all together (I mean, an animal doesn't understand the concept of "rights" because that's a human concept.)

Those four pointy teeth we have say we're omnivores by design, built to be able to rip and rend flesh. Being able to live well without using meat as a protein source is the true luxury, a testament to our adaptability as a species.

I think having a meat bag to predigest all that icky grain is a true luxury. HEY COW! Peel me a grape.:D

Mmmm, meat bag... :p

Well, that's arguable... barely. The human body may be equipped to eat insects and possibly small fowl, but not much more than that.

As far as "adapting as a species," I think the most adapting we've done is migrate to colder climates and learn how to kill and cook species that are BIGGER than us, simply out of necessity. The human species survived and grew bigger and stronger because of it. That's adaptability.

Huh? While I agree that we may have gone overboard with the meat eating nowadays, due to the fact that we have no further external competition, no predators, no real threats as a species... make no mistake. We came from omnivores and we've always been omnivores.

<img src="http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/media/corel/chimp.jpg">

<img src="http://www.admin.northpark.edu/dkoeller/Classes/Images/Hunting.GIF">

$0.02 added.

Chimp looks happy. Must've just had a banana. :p

Actually, I haven't done much reading on it, but I think what I read was that chimps do hunt (although I don't know how), and that meat (mostly other species of monkeys) makes up 3% of their diet. And I think chimps are the only species of the great apes to eat meat on a regular basis, but I'm not sure.

The second picture is a good illustration of what I said in my last post... a lot changed when humans picked up bows and arrows.

Nonsense. Cow is quite useful to humans, it's packed with nutrients. Unlike, say, celery, which is largely indigestible fiber.

Yeah, there is no defense for celery. :(

Gorillas eat nothing but leaves all day. If you want to be like them, go ahead. They're lethargic and lay around all day because they don't have any energy. They also eat their own poop, so as to give the leaves a second round through their digestive system.

If we all become vegetarians, we may well eat our own poop in 100,000 years. Think about it.

I'd like to apply that to other arguments. "Issuing unconstitutional Executive Orders will eventually lead to us all eating our own poop!"

Rushing to the side of the celery, wolf springs forth and shouts:

It holds the peanut butter or cream cheese pretty well .. doesn't slop off the sides or nothin'.

And it's a really good transport device to the mouth for the bleu cheese that comes with the hot wings.

You stop dissin' the celery!!

Naw, solient(sp) green.

Celery is a untensil that doesn't have to be washed. Something to be said for that.:D