Is he cripplingly shy, or gay?
 

Another thread on a similar subject made me think to post this. I have a very good friend, let's call him Dwight, who I've known for a little over three years. The two of us have been splitting apartments for the past two and a half years, and we would probably have continued to do so well into the future, except that I've bought a house and moved in with my fiancée.

Dwight is a nice Book-of-Mormon-thumping went-on-a-mission-and-made-mom-and-dad-proud go-to-church-every-Sunday Mormon. I try not to hold that against him, though, as it's pretty damn common here in Utah. He's good looking, has a sense of humor, he's responsible, loves kids... many of the things that would make him attractive to women. But he doesn't date, and does a pretty convincing job of making it look like he's too shy to talk to girls... but here's why I think it's more than that:

1. He's 29 years old.
2. He's a virgin.
3. He's had ONE girlfriend. EVER. And it's a girl who was a complete headcase, which he "stole" from me. They dated about three months before he broke it off.
4. Aside from the girlfriend, he's been on about four other dates with girls IN HIS WHOLE LIFE.
5. On two occasions, I arranged dates for him with nice, attractive girls which he claimed to be interested in, and he never followed through on either of the dates.
6. He talks about wanting companionship, but does nothing about it.
7. He has a number of mild mannerisms one often sees in homosexual people... the stance, a way of talking, the clothes he wears, etc.
8. When the subject of homosexuality comes up, he goes to great lengths to make sure everyone in the room is aware that he is heterosexual... even though nobody was suggesting otherwise.

I personally think that he's gay, but so deeply Mormon that he won't even admit it to himself. Even if he did, he would never come out in the open about it, because it would break his parents' hearts. He's a good friend, and if he did come out of the closet, I'd be happy to help him to find a man... I just dont want him to live a lonely and unrewarding life.

Has anybody else had a friend like mine? Were you able to help them find direction at all? Any suggestions?

A friend of mines name came up in a conversation with someone who I didn't know knew him. I was gonna clean that sentance up but I kinda like it Anyway, She inquires "Can I ask you a question?" To which I reply, "I don't know, nobody knows." He prolly doesn't know himself. He doesn't know himself. I have no idea if there is anything helpful that can be done. He used to date and had one serious relationship a few years back but I don't think he's seen a woman since her. It could very well be he got his heart broken, but that seed of doubt is there. I know a married father of four who falls into a similar category, although he and his wife seem fine. I'll post in a decade or so if the rest of the story plays out.

Well, I would curb the matchmaking urge and just make sure he knows youre his solid friend. Sounds to me like a relationship with either gender isnt his main problem or magic solution. A girlfriend or boyfriend cant fix it. He's got to solve it, there maybe lots of reasons why hes not coupled up, and single can be just fine. I'd watch for signs of depression, and offer the support you can.

Yeah, it really sucks, and I guess there really are a lot of people who are like this. Religion is supposed to help people. How come more often than not it just ends up suffocating them?

That's because most religion, especially Christianity (with it's many different brands), is a pile of crap. Beliefs that are totally unecessary are forced upon people and the original message of the religion (Christ dying to save them from their sins) gets over-run by commandments, priests and rituals.

NB. I am Christian.

You're a Christian, but you think it's all a pile of crap? Explain?

Most religion, including CHristianity (that is to say, most Christianity) is a load of crap. The fiath is what is important, not how you worship etc.

Mormonism is particularly suffocating. I was an active member of the Mormon church until I was old enough to make up my own mind about it, which was about age twelve. My mother still tried to make me go for a couple years, but thankfully she realized that I wasn't avoiding church because it was boring or because I didn't like getting all dolled up every Sunday, but because church just wasn't for me.

The Mormons excommunicate anyone who openly admits to being homosexual. That's just the paperwork though, the real problem for gays here is the Mormon density... using data from the last census, a local paper showed that about 88% of residents in Utah County here are LDS (tried to find a link to the story, but I can't find one). About 60% desity in the whole state, but Utah County is Mormon HQ. Mormons do not tolerate homosexuals... they don't speak to them, help them out when they need something, or let their kids near them.

So it is not surprsing that a lot of gay men here don't come out of the closet until after their tenth wedding anniversary. Being gay just isn't allowed, and anyone who chooses otherwise is shunned. Sad but true.

Oh, and in case anybody was wondering, I'm straight.

....on a related note, I read that Utah has the highest percentage of Prozac perscriptions per capita of all the US states. Hmm.

I found an archived copy on Geocities

Hey, isn't it neat how everything comes together?

My cousin's life closely resembles your friend's. We believe he has had a couple of serious relationships with men, but he's never come out of the closet (he's not Mormon though). We finally got as much confirmation as we'll probably ever get that he is gay about 10 years ago when his "roommate" of 5 or so years suddenly moved out and he had a nervous breakdown as a result. There was clearly more going on there than just a house-sharing arrangement.

My aunt kept hoping that he'd get married for the first 40 or so years of his life and then just gave up mentioning it.

I don't know that you can do anything about people who are in such serious denial, other than be there to offer support if and when they need it.

Yeah! What she said.;)

Christianity should be joyful and hippy-like, but somewhere along the line control was added. That happens in any large organization given a long enough time-frame.

Yes, most definitely be a friend. My friendship kept a friend from committing suicide once. I wasn't there, which was all that much scarier, but he remembered me saying that if he moved to LA, I'd miss him and it would get boring. It was an innocent enough remark, but I meant it, and he didn't carry through.

Wow, that's fucked up. It's funny how the smallest thing can change (or save) someone's life.

Alan, it's possible that your friend could be gay, but it's also possible that he's just incredibly picky. And maybe he stresses his orientation to others b/c he's heard enough people wondering if he's gay.

But warch said it best...he's gotta deal with it. Just be a good friend.

Relationships, like anything else, are a skill. For some folks it's innate, for others it's a challenge. Even "people" persons need to put energy and work into a relationship to sustain it and help it grow and mature.

"Dwight" might just be the kind of person that's relatively comfortable alone, or has some very difficult to fulfill 'ideal partner' concept. If he's chugging along as-is, being happy, fine. If he's seeing not being attached as a major issue, and obsessing over it is causing him other problems in his work or personal life, then yeah, maybe some kind of intervention is warranted.

Your friend may or may not be gay. My gaydar's pretty good, but unless I'd get a face to face (not likely) I'm not even going to guess. But either way, he's your friend, and that's really what's important at the root of it all, yes?

I'd buy that - it seems like in most of us, desire runs deeper than shyness and we will do what we need to do to either get laid or get hitched. That's why there's beer. In a small number there isn't enough desire to override the personal issues.

Ain't it the truth. I was desperately shy back in the day, but all it takes is a drunken one night stand gone bad and you're set for life.

Sometimes it calls for tequilla. ;)


But another aspect is the social transition from single to couple. As 'strami formalizes his pairing, the friend circles can shift. Heightens the desire to see others find their pair. And I think its a major identity/intimacy struggle for those hitched to lose (and mourn) their singleness- not just sex, but general independence. As George noted, worlds collide!

The dude is Mormon, so he won't even touch caffiiene drinks, let alone alcohol.

I'm not the type of guy to offer relationship-finding help without some indication from the person that he or she wants it. In fact, with this friend, it's the first time I've ever asked a girl out on someone else's behalf. In the past, I have directly asked him if he wanted my help, and he's accepted. I'm not just being Mr. Now-I-have-a-relationship-so-I-want-all-my-single-friends-to-have-one, I'm trying to help him resolve a problem which he is often describing... Note the sixth item in my original list:

...this "talk" I refer to is stuff along te lines of "why can't I find a girl?" and "I don't know why it's so hard to find someone." Well.... it helps if you'll actually talk to girls, or make occasional eye contact.... a smile in their direction would be a good start. Bah, nevermind. But to me, such statements do not indicate someone who is happy without companionship.

I can identify with him to a degree... I used to be shy. I used to be really, really, damn shy around girls, and a lot of people said I was more scared of girls than any other person they'd ever met. It would take all my courage to ask a girl out, and my mouth would dry up and my knees would feel funny and my own voice would sound distant inside my skull. After I asked them out and went on my way, I'd be nauseous for an hour. But I was able to make myself do it. In my early twenties something clicked in my head, and I realized that girls weren't scary, and for awhile I was a regular swinger, with 2-3 dates a week with different girls. I did some stupid things and got into trouble, but that's a story for another day.

But, I had my turn at the girls-are-terrifying thing, and despite that I managed to grow a pair once in a while and get a few dates anyway. My point is that I don't think shyness is the reason my friend won't ask girls out, at least not entirely.

Or upset for life.
Until all your married or paired friends start to "treat you like a guest":(

His freedorm
 

Maybe he doesn't dare to know his real feeling. He like gay love in heart bottom but he doesn't dare to show and do it because of fearing the out pressure. He can have this life if he feel ok. As you know, it is not easy to have gay love. He has his freedorm and right to chose.

I have a friend named Todd who is Mormon and was very active in the singles ward of the church. His situation was a little different, because he admitted to me that he "thinks" he's gay, but he dares not tell anyone about it, because it would break his mother's heart, embarass the family, and excommunicate him from the church, something his mother could never live down.

I asked him why he was going to the single's ward if he was gay, and he said that he was forcing himself to find a "nice mormon woman", get married, have a few kids, and that would be it.

He wants the kids, and the only way he can see to get them is to have the wife, even though he's not attracted to women.

I was flattered that he trusted me enough to tell me his secret, but still I tried to explain what was wrong with this course of action on so many levels. It didn't faze him.

That was 2 years ago. Now he insists he was never gay, he was just confused, and he's still looking for a nice girl to settle down with.

Go fig.

Wow, it's amazing how many people this happens to. The desire to conform to society's expectations of you really can fuck up your life big time. It's like peer pressure on a massive scale.

Oh well, one more reason to hate the church.

The Mormon church. Nowt wrong with most of our British ones. Well, not AFAIK. Though I've never met a gay Christian, I think it is because Christians tend not to be gay (because I believe you cannot be born so).

Hey I just remembered watching this film on POV a while ago, and I found a link to it. It was very moving about a Mormon woman who finds her husband dying of AIDs, contracted from a random male lover. They have two kids, She is infected.They are a strong family and stick together. The kids are not infected and the older son leave for his missionary work. They still try to be active in the church, but the man is excommunicated or whatever. He wrestles with his homosexuality to the end. Very interesting and heartbreaking how they deal with being told by their worship community that they'll get no compassion, no care, no love. And they show so much love in response which,in my opinion, puts the Mormons to shame.

The Smith Family

What you'll find is that there are a lot of gay christians who've separated from organized religion despite the "love the sinner, hate the sin" approach that many of the larger christian churches are espousing.

I have an elderly aunt who used to wrinkle up her nose and say,"Johnny? He's a...bachelor."

I met a guy who was in seminary who told me he was a "southern baptist homosexual." I fully expected that uttering those words together would cause some kind of star trek-like disaster and we would all be buried in a matter-meets-anti-matter implosion, but nothing happened.

Still waiting for the other shoe to drop.