06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?
 

I have these two friends, Janice and David. I've known them for a little over 10 years. They're Christian, but I don't hold that against them. They're not the sort of folk that sing in church every Sunday. They follow their own moral code, but they don't shove their noses in everybody's else's business like the church folk do. When first I met them, they lived together, but were just friends.

I later learned that David was gay, but denied it to himself because he believed it to be a sin. When he became a Christian, he gave up his homosexual ways and became celibate. Jan and David both believe very strongly that he's not gay, despite his homosexual experiences. Being gay is a choice, and he's chosen not to be.

Several years later, Jan and David got married. Not too long after, a baby followed.

A couple years after, Jan messages me and tells me they're having problems. He doesn't like sex, she says, and they've only had it 10-15 times in several years. She tells me it's clear by the expressions on his face that he doesn't like sex, and that he prefers to masturbate. She's insanely frustrated, and believes herself to be a worthless, inadequate woman who can't even please her own man. What little self-confidence she had has been completely obliterated, as she completely blames herself for everything. To be fair, she does say that he's selfish for not trying.

I asked her if she still believed that being gay was a choice, and she said yes, that the problem was that he just wasn't trying hard enough. Now, she doesn't know what's going to happen.

I thought it'd be interesting to see what you guys thought. Maybe you could offer some insight? She also asked me to put up this poll, so vote accordingly!

Your friend is a sucker. She needs to wake the fuck up. So does he. They need to get a divorce and just be friends, where they can go on cock-sucking trips together. There's nothing wrong with being gay, so tell him to get the fuck over it.

That will never happen, because they're blinded by their stupid religion. They should probably just kill themselves.

My father died when I was three, and I was raised alone by my single mother from that age.

During my childhood I was exposed to several gay teachers (although nobody knew it at the time). A very good friend of mine from age 9-11 wound up gay. And I was involved in the theatre when I was in college.

Despite all this, I wound up heterosexual.

Yes, I'm not sure what went wrong. Maybe my momma wasn't feminine enough, or didn't make me out to be feminine enough. On the other hand, she didn't let me play with toy guns. So I dunno.

However, being involved in the theatre in college meant that I watched as others -- by my estimate, 50% -- slowly came out.

When I was a senior, in fact, I said to incoming freshman buddy Joe, who was also getting into the theatre crowd: "Joe, you won't believe me now, but before you graduate, half of your friends are going to turn up gay." (Joe was a confirmed het.) Four years later, he told me that to his amazement my prediction had come true.

So, having watched the species up close, having identified it early, I can't possibly imagine it being a choice in the gay people I've known. It's something deeply rooted within them, just as deep as the heterosexuality is in us hets. It might be genetic, or it might be a switch that gets set very early in life. Its persistence through different cultures, regardless of the public attitudes, kinda suggests that it's genetic.

I can imagine what it might be like for David. I try to imagine forcing myself to have lust for someone that I'm not attracted to. I imagine what it would be like if all of society told me I should have that desire. I might behave like I was expected to behave, to see if the desire might follow. The result would be very much like that: I'd try every few months, and if it wasn't happening maybe I'd come up with other excuses for why. Actual sex is that final expression of desire, and it's the part that's hard to fake.

But uh, basically I agree with dave.

Well, I also wanted to add, I feel like this is an example where an intellectual question isn't just mental jibber-jabber. All this shit we talk about, it's not just for nothing. Your views really do affect how your life turns out, in a very real way.

Also, while I was driving my wife home from work tonight, she told me of two friends she knew who are also in this exact situation. My wife, Kathy, even used to date the guy, but eventually gave up on him after realizing he was hopeless. And now her friend is married to him! And the funny thing is, Kathy doesn't blame herself, because she realizes it wasn't her fault.

Decisions affect lives. Even if you think it's an insignicant one, it might not be.

You make it sound easy, but it's really not given her current mindset and situation. Hey, if only people really could "fix" things, just like that. Wouldn't life be great?

Re: 06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?
 

You know, it's not as easy as you guys might think. Intimacy is a big issue in a relationship, but sex is only a by-product. And if two people love each other....

I have a question for all of you intellectuals. Do you all believe that the paths of your lives are chosen by genetics? Did none of you finish college against the odds, become under or over achievers, made a choice that surprised you or others? Did ALL OF YOU just say, "I had no choice," and get carried away by the whims of fate and fancy? Every homo or heterosexual has a choice, the same as straight persons do. I assume I'm not the only one out there who has had a same-sex fantasy or encounter. I could have gone to my own sex (who seem to be smarter) as easily as not. In the end, I made a choice.

As do we all: to stay with someone you love, and work through issues, be they sexual past or the fact that you always leave your freakin' socks on the floor.

Get over it. Life means choices: none of us were born speed-bumps; and whether we become one is up to us.

Genetic predisposition? Entirely possible, I suppose. A choice, if a nonspecific, early on, and well-hidden one? Equally possible. A figurative faucet you can turn on and off as it suits your lot in life? Probably not.


Where does bisexuality fit into it all?

Firstly, let me say I believe there is no choice regarding sexuality. Secondly, my room-mate through my Naval recruit school days was (is) bisexual and, boy, was i ever jealous. He had the entire human race to reject him rather than the mere fifty percent that beat me with sticks.
I'm hetro with no great desire to experience the flip side but if I was predetermined, especially bi, I wouldn't complain.
As for the married couple, if he really had choices surely he would choose to love and obey his god's wishes rather than succumb to the 'weakness' of sexual preference.
Lastly, I'm glad I'm on the outside looking in.

I'm sorry, but your friends are dumb assholes. He is <b>eventually</b> going to break, and mommy is going to slash her wrists anyway. So we have a kid with a gay dad that dumped mom ("he didn't love us enough to change!") who is now taking a dirt nap. How fucked up do they want their kid to be?

Sometimes people need to wake up. You make it sound like it's impossible. This is pretty clearly a case where the two people would be better off as friends because sex really <b>is</b> required to make a happy and close marriage and these two aren't getting it done (for obvious reasons). Yet they're so blinded by their faith that they cannot accept reality (that they <b>both</b> like dick). Obviously they need serious counseling (and not some fucking charlatan like Dr. Phil), but they're not going to do that either. Tell me honestly, could they be in a more hopeless situation?

So what's the point? She will reject the truth and not do what she needs to do (which is get a divorce and find someone that can make her happy), so they're both going to be miserable.

My advice is to buy her a vibrator.

Re: Re: 06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?
 

Welcome to our little corner of the Internet, case study!

You're absolutely right. But, based on juju's description, I'm not getting the impression that there's a lot of love in this marriage. Is it easy to admit that they both made a mistake, and move on? No. Is it difficult to stay together in the situation they're in now? Yes. Life is full of choices between two (or more) rotten options. I have to come down in the "split up" camp. The way I see it, it offers a better long-term situation than continuing with what's going on now.

OK, I'll answer even though it wasn't directed at me!

No, of course not. But as I am now, I have certain predispositions. I'm somewhat introverted, I like solving problems, I like to take things apart and put them back together, and I have a limited amount of patience for shmoozing and "chit-chat". (As Skunks says, by now it doesn't matter whether it's nature or nurture.) In many ways I'm well-suited for my job as a network administrator/IT jack-of-all-trades. Is that the only job I could have been happy with? No, obviously. But it's equally clear that there are some jobs that would drive me up the wall, that would be "against my nature" if you will. Sales, for example. That doesn't mean I can't CHOOSE to go out and get a sales job. It does mean if I do, I probably won't be very happy.

I'm hetero. I have a pretty strong attraction to women. I've never experienced any desire to try men. Does that mean I couldn't CHOOSE to have a homosexual experience? No. But it does mean I'm not likely to find it as interesting as sex with a woman, and it's not likely that I'd be happy in a situation where I could no longer have sex with a woman.

So yes, people can always choose, but sometimes we make the wrong choice, and sometimes we don't realize it for years, and sometimes the other choice we didn't take was just as bad.

My best friend's parents-in-law were in a similar situation... deeply Mormon people, thery were married and actually had a few kids before he finally admitted to himself and to her that he was gay. They are now divorced, and while it was difficult, I am certain that their lives are now (and will continue to be) better for separating. Who wants to look back on their life in old age, and think "My God, I wasted my life pretending to be intimate with someone who didn't make me happy?" Those are years that you can never have back, so once one realizes that the choices they've made will not bring them happiness, they can be cowardly and hide from them, or they can make some new choices.

No one is claiming that it it's not difficult, but everybody gets their turn wading through shit once in a while, and no amount of advice or words of comfort will make it easy.

Re: Re: Re: 06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?
 

There actually is a lot of love in this marriage. He says that he's happy now, happier than he ever has been, or was, living the gay lifestyle. They love each other a lot, which is why this is so hard on them. Juju says "sometimes love isn't enough" but that sounds like a bumper sticker to me.

I think their hearts love each other, their bodies just don't seem to be making the leap.

Well "insanely frustrated" with "selfconfidence obliterated" doesnt sound like healthy intimacy and love. Either they can live with the nonsex companion compromise or they need more and will start lookin.

I think you have genetic dispositions, but those are also developed through society. And I think you cant help or particulary control who you fall in love with.

I'm the gal who dated that creative, arty, soon to come out 50% in college. I was a magnet. I ran a freakin' gay finishing school! You cant change 'em back, bless their little confused hearts.

Hell, the love part is easy. That comes naturally! I think anyone will tell you that marriage is work. You've got to reach compromises, learn to live with each other and work as a team, and not piss each other off. It requires constant maintenance and understanding, both of which have nothing to do with love. The love just makes it all worth it.

Given that, I think that staying together and keeping each other truly happy requires like a thousand more things than love. That's why I say the old maxim is true. <b>But</b>, I've only been married for a year, so I'd be more than willing to bow my stance to someone else's superior experience.

Well, I would argue that the love is what makes all that work possible, but that's just nit-picking. As for nature vs. nurture, I think we'll eventually find that the two are more inextricably connected than we can now imagine. Personally, I think that orientation is primarily nature, but behavior (acting on one's orientation) is more a matter of choice. The question we seem to be struggling with in our current society is, should we expect a small minority to make difficult behavioral choices in order to conform with the basic nature of the vast majority?

In the case of Juju's couple, I think divorce would be best for all, including the kids. I had to make a similarly difficult decision with my marriage (not over sexual orientation, but a serious mental-health problem) after 15 years and three kids. Complicating matters was that we didn't hate each other, we were both good parents, and we enjoyed each other's company. Nevertheless, we are all better off now, separated, than we were three years ago.

Ever think of training women to develop your finishing skills... save a lot of heart ache in this mean ole world.

WTF! They both knew he was gay but decided to try to make a marriage. He failed and she thinks its her fault. What kind of retarded shit is that? How in hell is it her fault? I'll bet a years pay she thought, as soon as we have a baby everything will be just story book perfect. My god, how many people have made that stupid mistake. The shame is, then they dump a kid into their mess. Wake up world, a kid(s) solves nothing.
She can tell he's not enjoying sex because he makes faces? Bwhahahahahahahahahaha. If you ever watched someones face while their having sex (not on camera) you'd think they were being tortured. Except the wives that have a sandwitch and do their nails, that is.LOL
Anyway, what to do? The only way they can stay together is if they both get it through their thick fucking heads that neither one of them is a failure. Be realistic about what their situation is. Decide if there is enough love and common interest (NOT THE KID) to stay together without a "normal" sexual relationship. They can still have sex but it will have to be tailored to their tastes. If they can't do ALL of those things, and I doubt if their religion will let them, then they're better off apart.

Heh, is that what the women you've been with look like during sex?

I think sexual orientation is primarily an issue of nature, though it can certainly be affected by nurture. There was a study being done when I was in my last year of college...something involving one of the pairs of chromosomes...the 21st pair I believe. I haven't heard anything since, but it sounded interesting.

IIRC (Wolf might know better than me), homosexuality was removed from the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition--the psychologist's bible) in the late 70s/early 80s.

The bottom line with your friends, juju, is that they need to have a serious heart-to-heart. If they think they can make it work, great. If not, they need to cut their losses...now. And quite frankly, they need to find a way to take religion out of it. (Though that's a whole 'nother matter.)

Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder in DSM-II ... but was taken out in the DSM-III revision.

What IS a diagnosable disorder (although I don't know if there's a formal name for it and I'm too damn tired to bother to look it up) would be when an individual is SO discomforted by their sexual orientation that it causes significant problems in their ability to function.

I voted "lawyer" in the poll, but would have voted "shrink" or "marriage counsellor" if those choices had been available.

There are likely more issues in the marriage than are described here. Getting a third-party negotiator can help majorly in figuring out where to go from here ... find some compromise and stay together, or start taking the steps that will lead to the eventual dissolution of the marriage.

what about just staying married, and finding a friend to blow off some of that unused sexual energy? didn't america think that was acceptable back in the 70s?

after all, bell bottoms are back................

Re: Re: 06/03/03: Is being gay a choice?
 

There's just something about a hairy ass that doesn't quite do it for me. Oh yea, and the carrot and peas don't get me steamed up either.

My mother, who taught the first grade for a number of years, told me that she could pick out a kid or two in the class that were destined for gaydom. Sometimes they were little boys that had the mannerisms and interests that would make them flamers if they were adults. Other times they weren't as pronounced, but had more of an affliction for the same sex.

Some things might be predisposed, regardless of genetics.
Trying to perfect the trifecta, yea?

Certainly not! How can they eat a sandwitch or do their nails bound with duct tape?

but AIDS didn't just go away

well, of course health cards and references would need to be checked....maybe bonded and insured...maybe bondage... but, hey!

"Ego-dystonic homosexuality" is the one they put in the DSM.

I'm also reminded of the old Masters and Johinson quote about religious orthodoxy as being a primary cause of sexual dysfunction.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ya know, I gave this some thought and I don't get this guys deal. Why refuse to be who you are? I understand the religion being against it, but there are churches that don't go with that idea.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, I figure if you are attracted to someone, and they are likewise interested go for it. Heck, I wouldn't even try to date a chic that had an appearance I found unappealing. I can't imagine going to a different gender. Oh well, I don't understand organized religion either.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I wonder about the origins of the marrige though. If the guy was physicaly attracted to dudes, and she knew, wtf? I mean how much sex could she have expected when she isn't even his prefered gender? Did they discuss these issues?

Well, first, they don't consider him to be gay. He's "chosen" not to be, and is therefore hetero in their eyes. She did know of his gay experiences, but figured that was all in his past, so what difference does it make? Therefore, he's not gay. If you accused him of it, he'd probably be insulted.

As to why they got married, they'd been very good friends for quite a long time. And you know how women get when they start to get older. They feel inadequate if they're not married, so they start bugging the crap out of the closet guy they're to.

Cut to several years later, and they're having a baby. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that they picked the exact date that the egg dropped to have sex, just because that's what Kathy said her friends from college did.

Bullshit. He may argue until he's blue in the face that he's not gay, and he may try to pretend that he's not, and he may even be insulted if you suggest he is.

But deep down, he knows he's gay and that he's never gonna change. I bet he fantasizes about banging a dude on those rare occasions where he fucks his wife.

She may believe his act, but he sure as hell isn't fooling himself.

Well, isn't that how their whole mess got started?

Whoops. :) That really wasn't intentional.

You think not? Looks to me like he's "successfully" fooling himself...if "success" is defined as ongoing denial. You'd be amazed how powerful denial about this kind of stuff can be; if you're sufficiently terrified by the truth.

Been there, done that, about a slightly different issue, admittedly, but the mechanism is familiar. I was lucky enough to recover from it before killing myself. Not everybody is. Some do kill themselves, others just finish out their lives closeted and miserable.

But to work from the theory that "he's just not trying hard enough" ranks pretty high on my cruelometer, which is why this "it's a choice, a lifestyle" approach is so bogus.

Maggie, so you feel if he has any doubts surface about being hetro he just feels he's failing his religion and must work harder rather than face reality?

I was defining success as fooling himself into believing he enjoys sex with women, which he never will accomplish.

A confession
 

I have been reading this, but I think most of you are a bunch of windbags typing to hear yourself talk. This is MY LIFE you're tinkering around with. Just because I haven't lived it like YOUR life...all of you, escaping your realities by hanging around with other windbags...doesn't mean my life choices are wrong.

He thinks about ME, not about some guy. He has made choices, choices that required the courage to walk away from all the stuff that was wrong in his life and come into what he considered right, whether or not you windbags think it is.

When someone gets cancer, do you people immediately condemn him to death? No -- at least I hope not. You tell him to fight on, to face the problems, go head on, and do battle. And yet here is something this man considers to be that bad, that troubling, and you just tell him to give up.

We have fought a long hard struggle, and we love each other very much. D is happy: happier than he ever was out in the gay lifestyle. He has not acclimated to having sex with a woman, but he spent longer than most making other choices. There is as much evidence to support the fact that people can live straight as gay, but you all ignore that. I suppose when a child is born bad--and they all are born bad -- you don't bother to help them correct it, you just let him do what he wants to do.

All my tirading to say this: This is my life you're tinkering around with here. How about accepting the fact that just because we don't live YOUR way doesn't mean our way isn't okay?

Windbags.

J

Denial, the most predictable of human emotions.

It's not a disease, you fucking retard.

All the really smart people out here..capable of phrasing a decent, compelling argument, and then there's you, Dave -- resorting to profanity and name calling, I presume because that's as hard as your mind wants to work?

Maybe it's just that that's how people treat you.

I am saying precisely that. It's not a disease, it's a choice. Like every choice, it has its ups and downs.

There. I used small words. If you have any other questions, let me know. And in spite of the profanity, thank you for making my point.

J

Re: A confession
 

And how exactly do you know this? You don't. Even if he swears up and down until he's blue in the face, you will never know what is going on inside his head.

My wife will never know what goes on inside my head. No doubt sometimes she would be pleased and sometimes she wouldn't, but I'm not gonna tell her. I think she would rather not know when I'm fantasizing about a supermodel, so it's best for both of us if I just keep that to myself.

Just like your husband is doing. He's gay, and no amount of blood, sweat, and tears will change that. It's how he's wired.

Quote:

All the really smart people out here..capable of phrasing a decent, compelling argument, and then there's you, Dave -- resorting to profanity and name calling

If you can't handle what people are going to say about your situation, don't be a chicken shit and have someone else ask it while you lurk around to hear the answer.

So who is it that you believe makes a decent, compelling argument? Here I thought we were just a bunch of windbags.

Just the idea of having to get "acclimated" to sex with a woman! Hon, to a straight male, there's no acclimation. It's built into us. We can't ignore it and it's not confusing at all. It's an animal drive, and it's led to several billion of us getting created.

Stick it in, move it around a bit, feels real good, orgasm. There hasn't been a set of directions this simple since "lather, rinse, repeat."

Re: Re: A confession
 

I actually didn't. Juju asked to post it, and I said okay. I am in a state of flux, because, as he mentioned, I'm not sure where we're going to be in a few months. Meanwhile, I was interested in hearing what other people said I had to say.

And maybe I am in denial, and maybe I'm not. I suppose I'm the only one out here struggling with something--?-- But I'm not lurking, I'm here.

J

Re: Re: A confession
 

And I guess I missed the part where calling someone a "fucking retard" is a valid statement on the situation. Sounds like sanctimonious name-calling to me.

J

Re: Re: Re: A confession
 

Just because someone comments on others' problems doesn't mean they don't have problems of their own. If someone posts a problem on here (whether it's someone else's or not), it's fair game.

Quote:

And I guess I missed the part where calling someone a "fucking retard" is a valid statement on the situation. Sounds like sanctimonious name-calling to me.

And calling us "a bunch of windbags typing to hear yourself talk" isn't "sanctimonious name-calling"?

Re: Re: Re: Re: A confession
 

Well, yes, but it was provoked.

In a lot of ways, you allowed yourself to be provoked, case, or at least opened yourself up to it.

I do respect your courage in allowing Juju to tell your story in an open forum. You're dealing here with a bunch of people, of different ages and experiences, and socio-political orientations.

What you are dealing with is an extremely sensitive issue. For you, and for your husband. As I said much earlier on in this thread, decisions have to be made on both your parts, in terms of what is to happen in your marriage. These decisions are often best made with the assistance of some third party, sometimes more than just one. Given the complexity of the situation up to three folks could/should be involved. Private therapist for each of you, and a separate marriage counsellor — If you think the situation has reached this point! I'm a stranger with limited information and insight into your lives. I'm not telling you sight unseen here that you need your heads examined ... all i'm suggesting is because of the depth of complexity of the things that you need to sort out both individually and as a couple, some additional help wouldn't hurt.

Your and your husband's sexual preference and sexual expression are things that you've been dealing with throughout your marriage. There is a bond between you that transcends that. You wouldn't have been together this long if it wasn't there.

Have you already made use of counselling or pastoral counselling services available through your church, or would such contact potentially lead to problems within that community? If so, you might want to look elsewhere for that other perspective. If spiritually based counselling is important to you, look into practices for which that is a focus. Be aware, though that not all secular counsellors are created equal ... the 'he's gay and has to express that get over it' theme that erupted here might also show itself in a professional setting, although more subtly.

Have you at least been able to have open discussions with your husband thoughout your marriage? Is he able to talk to you about his thoughts, his feelings, his fears and uncertainties? Does he know you are able to listen? (assuming that you in fact are) Are you able to share YOUR thoughts, feelings, fears, and uncertainties with him equally?

When it all comes down to it, isn't that a lot of what counts?

I'm heartened to hear from someone who, based on this brief contact, seems to regard marriage not as something that is disposable, but as something that should be, and deserves to be, worked on.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A confession
 

No, it wasn't. We didn't know that the subject of this thread was reading it. People talk differently about people when they don't think they're around. We were being frank with Juju and the subject in general to make our points.

The point remains, you should have mentioned up front that the question was about you, and can't become upset at comments made beforehand.

Wolf makes a good point here. You have to decide what is important to you in a marriage.

However, the sooner you accept one single fact, the sooner you can get yourself out of your problem: <B>your husband will never lust after you</B>. No amount of counselling, religious or otherwise, will change that. It's not that he isn't "trying hard enough".

It's also important to realize that his lack of lust isn't your fault. Don't blame yourself. We cannot choose whom we lust after. We can't choose what gets us going. And I think deep down, you must agree with that. Think of whatever it is that turns you on, whether it's big hulky men, guys in tidy whities, whatever. Do you think you could change that, if you could just try hard enough? Of course not.

Now, it's time to decide what's important to you in a marriage. Some people can live without their partner lusting after them. Some people can live without their lust ever being fulfilled. Some can't. It all depends which category you fall into.

A counselor may help each of you decide what it is that you want, and what you're willing to give up to get it. But they won't be able to un-gay your husband.

Also, frankly, calling 5-10% of the population "diseased" is also sanctimonious name-calling. On behalf of my gay friends, whose heads you obviously don't understand, it seems you have earned your way into your situation and don't deserve much sympathy.

Ditto for the approach of desperately needing advice, relying on an anonymous message board for it, and not liking what you hear and flying off the handle.

This is a very blunt situation and it requires blunt thinking, blunt language.

If you want to know how heterosexuality operates in the real world, post your picture to certain Usenet groups. There are any number of men willing to decorate it with man-juice and post it back to prove their sexual response to your image. Rude -- un-called-for -- maybe even on the edge of deviant. But male sexual response is like that: immediate, driven by visual stimulation, sometimes stronger than common decency.

Yeah, nice try Toad, you perv! She's not gonna send you her picture, so just give up!

It's hard to tell what *he's* feeling...if he's mounted a 24/7 effort to repress his sexuality, he's probably not feeling much of anything. The info we have is that *she* feels that way.

But putting that tight a cork on his feelings is not something that can last forever. My guess is if something external doesn't cause him to realize who he truly is and begin to act in harmony with that, the whole situation will end in something ugly.

Then you liken it to cancer <b>why?</b>

Do you think someone can will themselves to be cancer-free? What exactly are you getting on about?

Being gay is just that - being gay. It's not a choice, it's not a disease, <b>it just is</b>. Just like you like men, so does he. He obviously loves you as a person and doesn't want to hurt you, but him not liking sex is a pretty serious issue if he's actually now straight (after making the choice and all).

I couldn't choose to like men. I just couldn't choose that. It's not how I'm wired. It's not how <b>anyone</b> is wired. You either like guys or you like girls or you like both, and that's the way it is.

Welcome to the real world, where people use harsh language. I don't really give a fuck if it offends you or if you think I'm right, because I'm happy in my relationship, both emotionally and sexually. Whether or not you get some dickin' has no effect on me whatsoever. Be happy that others here are taking their time to give you advice. We sure as shit don't have to, because we have nothing to gain.

Or maybe you can take the fucking blinders off your eyes and approach your situation with an open mind - and be thankful that enough people give a shit to bother offering advice about your miserable situation.

Damn Tob, I'm all outta material.

Okay. You guys make some valid points. Some of this I'm sure I've been in denial about, some of it I haven't wanted to think about, and some of it I'm not sure I believe.

With all these comments in mind, I'm going to find a counselor and try to find where I belong in all of this.

Thank you, and thank you Juju. Please take this thread down.

J

Anaolgies are as bad as statistics when it comes to twisting them to prove a point. Cancer? Come on. Homosexuality is not a disease, it's not life-or-death, and cancer cells can't be removed by making a lifestyle choice (assuming you believe that there really is a choice).

If you have a question that is difficult to ask, expect an answer that is difficult to hear.

My threads are like my children. I can't just kill them off! I'll close the thread, though. Hope that's good enough.

Thanks for your opinions, everyone! If you want to know Case Study better, maybe we can convince her to post in the regular forums.