Spirit or brain?
 

     Where does the personality come from? A lot of the people on here don't buy into any religion, (myself included) but that doesn't mean we believe there is no spirit/soul. I was just wondering how people felt on this subject. Are we really just meat, with chemically programed responses, or something more that can move on when the body dies?

I think our brain gives us a baseline of personality--inherited, chemical/biological affects, general human tendencies, etc. But I definitely believe that our spirit gives color to the canvas (the brain).

Sperm donor and I share many personality traits (the way we laugh, our stubbornness, among them). But I'm a completely different person than he is--I'm empathetic, I'm more creative than mechanical, and I'm not afraid to show "sissy" emotions.

And if we didn't have spirit, there'd be too much predictability. I'd be just like my mom and dad, my mom would be just like her mom and dad, etc. We wouldn't truly be individuals. That would be boring as hell.

Man, if I were exactly like my mom and dad, I'd be in a world of trouble.

     Hmm, I don't know. I'd like to think that I'm more than blood and tissue, but I'm not sure that's a solid argument. When you consider how many facets a personality has, double it and then blend randomly an amazing variety could be produced.
     I have a friend that was adopted, in his mid-twenties he met his real mom. We were roommates at the time and I witnessed her making gestures and using body language I'd seen out of him for years. This was the first time they'd seen each other since the day he was born.
     My own Daughter has the same smartass tendencies that I, my father and my Grandfather have. As well as the tendency to not worry much about the affect of our words, also inherent in the family. Meanwhile, I keep my mouth in check around the girl-child and her mom actively discourages her sarcastic tendencies.
     Obviously, physical, mental and even emotional traits can be passed. Often times purely genetically, since even though they weren't taught they exist in the child.
     So, there has to be spirit because it's needed for variety? Hmm, no, I don't buy it due to the extreme diversity one individual can possess. I have a friend who's mom's a holy-roller now. When he was a teen she custom painted Harleys and lived a life appropriate to that job. Both persona's are sincere. One person can play many roles in their life. Two mixed? The mind boggles...

I've read articles claiming even tiny babies can pick up moods and attitudes of the people (family) around them. You might be teaching the kids things you don't even realize.
I don't know if it's true for children, but I've seen it in animals for sure.
If kids can do this then why couldn't they put together combos of emotion. If one parent has an emotion that is usually paired with the other parent having another emotion then when the first appears they would expect the second. Sort of a learned response. I'm just theorizing here but it seems possible. :confused:

     Ok, I'll buy that. However, I didn't know my Dad. I did however clearly get my smartass tendancy from him. I was away from him at about three months, and have only seen him a few times in my life. I garantee my mom was always disaproving of the sense of humor I seem to have picked up from him... Yet here I am, and my daughter is the same. (oh yeah, she's going to be trouble...)
     Also, that theory completely ignores my first example. He was seperated from his mom, literaly, on the day he was born. Yet their hands moved the same way when they talked twenty-something years later.
     By the by, am I to take it that you are on the spirit over body side of this?

I..um..well...I don't know. OH MY GOD....I don't have an opinion on this! xoxoxo Bruce slinks back to his van down by the river.:blush:

     Slink away you should! Begone, you are no longer worthy of the proud title, "Opinionated Bastard".

The decision on this issue should be obvious, unless you're a faith-loving bible-beater. The existence of a spirit has never been scientifically proven. The brain, genetics, and trait inheritance, however, HAVE been scientifically proven.

Which is more likely to be the source of anything? Something that is proven to exist, or something that exists only hypothetically?

"Mere accumulation of observational data does not constitute proof"
One of Heinlen's books.
Simply because you haven't seen the soul doesn't mean it isn't there. We can't see gravity, and definitely don't understand it, but it's there. What if the "soul" were some kind of magnetic field? Hmmm..that would explain why people driving while talking on cell phones are such dolts.

I never said the spirit wasn't there, I simply said that it hasn't been proven to exist. That's the difference between me and an atheist -- I don't rule out things that I know nothing about. (or, I try not to, at least.)

Attributing an effect to a cause that there's absolutely no evidence of, however, is pretty foolish in my opinion.

I tend to think of the "soul" as simply the conglomeration of a person's values, thoughts, and feelings... the combination of abstractions which make a person unique. Everyone has one, but it's nothing supernatural.

It is a bleak view to think of ourselves as chemically programmed meatsacks though... if there is no spirit or soul, no heaven and hell, and no great diety... if everything we think and do is preprogrammed response to chemicals and electrical impulses according to the laws of physics... if creativity is nothing more than a rogue electron strking a vulnerable neuron... then that means that everything was basically pre-decided the instant the universe was created. So if the universe were suddenly destroyed and a new one born in exactly the same fashion, we would lead the same lives, because all of the same rogue electrons would still hit the same vulnerable neurons at the exact same times. I would still type this same posting, and you would still read it and get the same "this guy is really full of bullshit" feeling you're experiencing now. Things like creativity, morals, and choice would all be illusions. Bleak.

One powerful reason to believe in an afterlife is the desire to think that there is more to life than being a helpless puppet in this version of the universe. So do I believe in an afterlife? I WANT to.... but my preprogrammed response happens to be one which won't allow me to easily swallow such an idea without evidence. And a "feeling" isn't evidence to me. Well, maybe circumstantial evidence.

Ok, I'm done.

I dunno, I think some things happen just by random chance. It could have happened one way, or it could just as easily have happened another way. If that idea is true, then the new universe would still end up completely different from its predecessor.

Well, what causes something to be random though? Does our concept of random really exist? Something that is seemingly random is really behaving exactly as it should according to the laws of physics, on any scale. Things are perceived as random to us because we cannot observe the cause, and/or the cause is too complex for us to grasp wholly, like the weather.

Even the direction that each subatamic particle came barreling out of the sigularity at the Big Bang (assuming you buy that theory) was governed by physics. If you put together the same set of circustances exactly, the laws of physics would still make the same calls and the same results would occur.

Of course if you can come up with something that is truly, genuinely random, then I am wrong. But I can't think of anything that is truly random.. everything is triggered by <i>something</i>.

Well, crap, I guess you've got me there!

Woo Hoo! That means when I look back at all the wrong choices I made, it wasn't my fault. It was preordained, preprogramed. Thanks, man.:beer:

Bastard Calvinists!

I don't really look at life as though everything is pre-decided, I was just making a point about a possible scientific conclusion on our reality. I prefer to think that I have free will, and that I can make a difference, at least in a small part, on the future. Of course, maybe that's what I'm preprogrammed to want to believe.

Damn. I was hoping you guys were giving me an out.
I would like everything to be explainable in logical terms. But over the years I've come across too many things that just can't be explained. I'm not talking about anal probing aliens but strange feelings and physical occurrences that made the hair stand up on my neck. More importantly made my brain stutter. My brain says the soul/spirit isn't logical buy my gut dissagrees.:confused:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Um... I think you're really underestimating the variety of exacting particle placement that can change everything. Or, on a larger scale I suggest an experiment. Put two dice on a slide with a six inch drop, record the number on the top and the number facing out so that you can insure placing them back exactly where they were, also, mark the exact positioning of the dice on the slide. Let them go. By your logic they'll come up the same each time since physics will do the same thing every time. You might find something random about the results.

You misconstrue my logic... the key phrase is "the same set of circumstances exactly." If I perform an experiment like the one you describe, the circumstances will be significantly different each time. I do not have the precision to place the dice in exactly the same point on the ruler each time, nor can I manage to push them with the same force, or be inhaling or exhaling with the same force, or get the angle exactly right, etc.

I'm not saying it's actually possible to recreate the circumstances of the Big Bang with exacting detail to the subatomic particle level, I'm just remarking that if it <i>were</i> possible, one might expect the universe to unfold in exactly the same way. It's just a complicated way of philosophising on whether we have genuine freedom of choice, or whether everything happens the way it does because it <i>has</i> to happen that way.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Actually, you make my point, there are so many things that could be changed slightly that there's no reason to think things would be even similar. If the big bang reoccurred I believe the universe would be completely different. For the similar reasons to the dice. A smidgen different everything changes, why would it be exactly the same right down to the subatomic level? Sounds like a really odd assumption to me.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Tieing all this back to subject, what about personality shifts due to brain injury or electroshock? Seems to me that the physical overcomes the spiritual in this case. Change the physical, and the spirit becomes unrecognizable.

I think a good example of personality shifts caused by outside influence is many war veterans. Especially in Viet Nam and earlier wars where soldiers saw extended fighting.:(

If the big bang simply reoccurred, sure, things would probably be different. But my thoughts are regarding an identical beginning, not just a big bang, but the <i>same</i> big bang. Every particle flies the same direction from the get-go.... what could happen to make things different?

(this may be lengthy...)

Perhaps if I put it another way... imagine for a moment that there is such a thing as a parallel universe. This parallel universe is completely disconnected and unaffected by events in ours. This parallel universe is created at precisely the same time in precisely the same way as ours, from an <i>identical</i> originating singularity. When the bang occured, the initial direction and speed of every subatomic particle would be the same, exactly mirroring ours, every particle in our universe having a couterpart in the parallel one.

These particles would eventually combine into hydrogen atoms (matter and antimatter), following the laws of physics (and quantum mechanics). Since all of the originating particles had the same speed and direction, and follow the same laws, one can assume that the counterparts to the particles which form atoms in our universe would also combine in the parallel universe.

Right or wrong? What could cause someting different to happen in the parallel universe? It's all governed by physics, there is no such thing as "random."

So these hydrogen atoms would start to succumb to gravity and pool up all over the place, many of the pools growing to the point where the mass and pressure starts a fusion reaction, and a star is born. Since this is also governed by physics, one can assume both universes would develop the exact same stars the exact same arrangement at the exact same time.

Am I wrong yet? If so, why? What would affect the outcome?

So the fusion process builds other atomic elements deep in the star, until the hydrogen fuel is depeted and the stars burn out, nova (blow off layers), or supernova (explode altogether). Stars which nova or supernova cast all kinds of atomic elements throughout the unverse, some of which will eventually form into planets. Again, can we assume that the mirrored universes would develop the exact same planets? One or more of which develop the exact same ecosystems, same life, and then the same individual life forms? Would those life forms lead identical lives, make the same choices and think the same things, just because they started from an identical beginning millions of years previously? Depite the fact that they were completely disconected from the other universe?

If you say No, then why? At what point could they possibly diverge?

I guess my point is that if you believe that individuals in the universes with identical beginnings could lead different lives, then like myself, you probably believe that we are more than the sum of our parts... that we are not just a bunch of atoms which ended up where they were inevitably going to end up from the very beginning. And that thing that makes us independent of the inevitable march of physics, that gives us choice... that is what I call a soul.

Wow, long. Sorry. Heheh.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Okay HP, I give up. What's the deal with your "identical beginning" theory? I see no reason to think the big bang would happen the exact same way.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As far as the 'if it did' scenario, I'd think every thing would continue to happen the same way. I don't see any reason to think that if it did our souls would mean a damn thing in changing any of it. To answer your question of individuals being able to be different in identical minds, bodies and circumstance, I wouldn't say no. I'd say if two identical people faced an identical situation then they'd have an identical response. Why would a soul matter anyway? We are suggesting that they would both make the same choice of thier own free will. Just because both did it doesn't mean both didn't make a choice true to them individualy. It sounds to me like you think they might not make the same choice, why not?

The spirit may well remain unchanged. We don't know. What can certainly change is the outward ability to express the spirit. Some brain injured patients may well be fully functional on the inside, but unable to express themselves. (isn't that a spooky idea)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Spooky? Yes, very Johnny Got His Gun. But often enough the people can interact and are different. However, you make an interesting point. Up to this point we all have linked personality and spirit, why is this? What have we based this assumption on? I think it's especialy interesting because it was a general assumption, not jut me. I do realize that I started this assumption, but it did go unquestioned. Thoughts?

Isn't personality how a person interacts with others? This is a result of a combination of inputs during their lifetime from nutrition to love and everything in between. The distilled or maybe compounded result is your soul/spirit. It's the "you" inside the "bag of meat". Whether the soul/spirit exists after the "bag of meat" is something that has been and will be debated forever.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;What? You have to interact to have a personality? Damn... I'm screwed...

Calm down, your not screwed....yet. You've got it backwards. You have to have a personality to interact not the other way 'round.:p

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I have to have a personality to interact? I'm still screwed...

Well I know that there is SOMETHING that lingers after the meatsack dies. I've had too many paranormal experiences that simply could not be explained by any other event.

In light of those experiences, I have to go with spirit. I think the spirit endures, inhabits a meatsack for a time, then when that time is over, it finds another one. Voluntary reincarnation.

Not to say the brain doesn't play a part. I don't think this is an either/or question. The brain imprints upon the spirit. Brain dies, spirit endures.





If I could type I'd get a real job.

The $64 question is whether the paranormal experiences are causeed by spirits after meat sack OR between meat sacks?:confused:

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I find that interesting Onyx, especially since I've attempted repeatedly to seek out paranormal experiences. It hasn't happened for me yet. Heck I even lived in one supposedly haunted house where all the other 6 tenants reported a slew of things, mostly surrounding my room, but I never saw or heard anything.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Still, this is the first thing on this thread that has pushed me towards the idea of spirit, But I'd like more info. I'm willing to accept your words at face value, as you have no reason to make anything up. However, I need to understand why these experiences convince you of the realm of spirit. I'm assuming it would have to be pretty telling to have that effect on you.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't know Bruce, I started this thread pretty well believing in spirit but the idea seems to be slipping... I'm slmost convinced we are meatsacks at this point.

This is a jump of logic that I just cannot do. If you can't explain something, you just assume a certain cause? If you don't understand something, you should look for more facts, not jump to conclusions.

My house use to belong to and old woman that lived alone in her later years. Quite often, when I'm in the cellar, I hear the front door then footsteps through the living room (hardwood, rug, hardwood) then into the dining room where they stop. The first few times I went up to see who it was...nothing. This has been going on for 25 years and I'm not the only one to hear it. Even the dog, laying on the cellar floor, would look up.

Years ago two friends and myself were looking to rent an old (150 yrs) house, We arranged to meet the Real Estate woman there one afternoon. I went there after work and my friends and the woman were already touring the house. Inside, I yelled and they responded from the second floor, so I went up the stairs and down the hall. As I passed one of the empty bedrooms I noticed a little girl sitting on the floor talking to her doll in a sing-song voice like kids do. When we finished with the second floor we went down the back stairs to the kitchen and did the first floor. Finished, we started to leave and I asked the woman, what about her kid, as she locked the door. Well she didn't have any kids. We searched the house from top to bottom. No kid. We rented a house across the street.

did you ever do any research and see if you could link the child to a past (and apparently present) resident?

No. A friends brother, who's a contractor, bought the house. He sent a crew in to remodel first then moved in with his wife and a bunch of kids. They never mentioned seeing anything and I didn't want to freak out the guys wife, so I didn't either.