Stupid White Men
 

I've just read Michael Moore's Stupid White Men, and a lot of it has scared and worried me. Is it really all that bad over there?
How much of it is true/do you believe?
And has any of it inspired any of you who've read it to go out there and do some of the things it suggests?
Finally, is Michael Moore actually on here?

Michael Moore is just like any other extremist. No, it's not that bad over here. Would you pay any attention to Pat Buchanan or Jerry Falwell?

Michael Moore has one significant thing in his favor that most of his ultra-right/ultra-religious counterparts do not -- a sense of humor, often one that's self-deprecating. (Buchanan, for all his xenophobic tendencies and hateful rhetoric, can be surprisingly self-aware at times; dig up his conversations with Hunter S. Thompson, for example, or his frank admission that the "liberal media" charges are mostly a bunch of hooey.)

Most of Moore's rants have at least a kernel of truth to them, often more than that, and they make for great reading and TV.

As for "is it that bad," depends on the context you're referring to, but the answer is often "yes, it is." Not that America was peaches and sunshine and love and peace while Clinton was President, either, but things have been getting verrrrrrrrry ugly since he left.

Things have been getting verrrrrrrrrrry bad since September 11. It's not all roses, but it's hardly the bleak picture the extreme leftists paint it out to be.

You can go to his website, michaelmoore.com, and read the messages he sends out to his mailing list, if you want more info.

I consider Moore more an entertainer than an investigative reporter. Since 9/11 I've seen a tremendous increase in potential for ugliness than actual ugliness. But, the power is there.:(

I dunno... over the past period of years I have really gotten this impression that there is only one acceptable opinion.. manufactured by the politicians and the media in chahoots. Any differing opinion that you might hold is unacceptable and dangerous. Actual attempts to report facts seem fewer and farther between.

I didn't start to have this feeling after 9/11. But it sure got a lot worse.

Well don't hold back... let us know what that ONE opinion is so that we can hold it and avoid trouble!

Sometimes you come on contact with certain people that just "light up" in the middle of a conversation when they think of some funny or sick-assed quip. So you find yourself waiting for it because you just know it's coming. After 9/11 I'd see people "light up" but the quip never comes. You could almost see them swallowing it. Self censorship extreme. I still haven't heard a lot of jokes or sick remarks about 9/11 and that's very unusual.
I'm thinking the same thing is carrying over to political thought in mainstream America. The Gumint is like a spouse. Don't let them even think you're not onboard.
Cellarites excepted.

Joth, yes...I think Undertoad is really Michael Moore. He just changes his views on here to throw people off. UT looks like him, and kinda sounds like him too. (Proof)

I saw Michael Moore on Donahue last summer, and really liked what he was saying for the most part. However, since the release of his movie, and the whole Oscar speech, he's starting to sound as whiny as Ann Coulter.

But in the end, the left needs a few more nuts. Prior to him, the only really obvious ones to me were Al Franken and Larry Kuby.

As scary as it is, sometimes, Pat Buchanan comes across to me as incredibly reasonable.

Now, are things "that bad" on this side of the pond? Well, Moore's book came out 5 months after 9/11, and I have yet to read it. Having said that, and putting 9/11 aside, the United States is still a great country. Yeah, we have our problems: the manufacturing sector is dying, our poverty rate isn't great, and we have quite a few people out of work right now. And of course, we could talk about racism, 9/11 aftereffects, blah blah blah.

But the good greatly overshadows the bad, IMO.* After all, the Cellar is Philadelphia-born and bred. Need I say more? :D

*--For the record, Sycamore is not a flag-waving patriotic yahoo.

Something just doesn't sound right when to exercise Philadelphia Freedom, one must go into the cellar.

As far as 9/11 goes, every time you hear a politician, pundit, coworker or columnist spout the "Everything changed after 9/11" line, and PARTICULARLY if they use it as a justification for some military action or reduction of personal freedom, feel free to club that person repeatedly with a large, blunt object until they admit that they're being ridiculous.

But it's true. Attitudes therefore strategies and priorities changed. Not necessarily justified, but sadly true.:(

SOME attitudes changed.

SOME strategies and priorities changed.

They changed for people who wanted them to change, or allowed them to change.

They changed, primarily, for those who allowed the actions of a small group to alter their attitudes towards a region, a nation or a religion as a whole.

They changed for those who previously held an "Everything the US does is good, and the rest of the world respects and admires us" attitude -- and in that case, change is good.

They changed for those in the government that used 9/11 as a pretext to do things (here and abroad) that they'd wanted to do all along, and cranked up their aggression several notches in the name of the "war on terra."

And, in changing, they annoyed the heck out of the rest of us.

The rest of you, huh? Are you saying nothing changed for you on 9/11? You don't think maybe our security was a little lacking?

Maybe you disagree about how it's being fixed, but surely you don't think everything should have just continued as normal?

I'm saying that for me -- personally -- nothing changed on 9/11.

On 9/10, did I feel that:
(a) there was significant anti-US sentiment around the world,
(b) some of the reasons for that sentiment had justification (from the perspective of those holding those opinions),
(c) our security (at airports, at our borders, at major public places) was visibly lacking,
(d) someone creative could easily catch America sleeping and do something really nasty, and that
(e) America would react very badly to the discovery that it was not in fact forever invulnerable and impregnable?

Yes, I did. And I did not cheer or celebrate when I turned on the radio and found that I was correct on all five counts. The state of the world is nothing new; all that is different is that on 9/11, America took a major hit within its own borders, and (to borrow from the late Douglas Adams) America reeled like it had been mugged in a meadow. I view 9/11 as a symptom of the problems, not as the problem itself.

Are there many things that can be, should have been and still should be fixed? Of course. But I view most of the Bush administration's corrective measures to be useless at best, and dramatically counterproductive at worst.

Unlike many, I don't view Muslims in general with any more suspicion than I did on 9/10 (that is to say, none). I don't view any countries in the Middle East as "the enemy," because I view the average citizens in those countries as having about as much control over the acts of their leaders as average Americans have over theirs (that is to say, none). I don't fly... but I didn't fly before 9/11, either, and not for terror-related reasons (more because I'm a chickenshit who's admittedly superstitious about plane crashes, regardless of the actual ratio of crashes to safe flights).

From a direct, personal standpoint, the ONLY difference in my everyday life is that I get frisked by an electronic wand before I go into the Spectrum to watch Phantoms games. (And if I was a terrorist, a minor-league hockey game would be MY first choice of target.)

Of course, I'm a suburban white boy who makes a comfortable living -- not someone of vaguely Arabic appearance, or someone with a French background or surname, or someone who's received death threats for publically opposing the Iraq war, or someone penned into a "First Amendment Zone" a mile away from the person they're protesting, or someone sitting in a cell at Gitmo without recourse or representation, or someone related to anyone who was in the WTC or the Pentagon or any of the four flights that crashed.

For them, things have changed... which is a shame.

And they've changed for you also, like it or not. Much more than being wanded at a phantoms game. Your perspective of the world and our countries place in it may not have changed but you are not an island (to coin a phrase) and lots of changes are going on that will affect you. I'll wager much more than you can forsee.

I don't know if this is what vsp is referring to, but sometimes in history there are more severe crises that have to be dealt with that really do cause permanent and big changes. In The Fourth Turning they point to the Revolution, the Civil War, and the depression/WW2 as the country's defining crises.

They also say we're about due for another. Their argument is that history is very cyclical and driven by generational aspects that repeat again and again.

Next one is supposed to be in 2005, but I don't think they're so strictly accurate. But if the theory holds, it wouldn't be off more than a few years.

Revolution, Civil War, and Depression/WW2 commonality lottsa dead folks. Trend- increasingly centralized government.

I suspect your wanding at the Spectrum has more to do with the actions of 'bangers in Phila than it does terrorists in the Middle East or elsewhere. They always used to do physical searches at the stadiums, didn't they? Wanding is more effective, less invasive, and also less likely to result in sexual harassment charges (I operate a walkthrough metal detector and hand-wand as part of my job).

Not to my knowledge; these friskings started when the bombings of Iraq started. Before, they might ask to look in your cooler to make sure you didn't bring in bottled beer; now, EVERYBODY gets searched. A friend of mine assumes the POW/concentration-camp position when he goes through the turnstiles (arms behind the head), to my great amusement and the consternation of the security guard.

Only if you believe that Bush & Co. would have done many things quite differently had 9/11 not happened. I don't; I sincerely believe that taking out Hussein, provisions of the PATRIOT Act, an aggressive takeover of the judiciary, etc., were part of their playbook all along, and 9/11 was an unfortunate but nonetheless useful pretext for them to speed things along and intimidate opposition. If it hadn't happened, something else would've.

This isn't "Bush caused 9/11" or "Bush knew it was coming and did nothing" conspiracy theory; either theory may or may not hold some truth, but we'll never know, so I don't lose sleep over them. All I'm saying is that all that changed on 9/11 was their timetable and the ease of execution of what they had in mind. It's not as if Cheney, Rummy, Wolfowitz and such haven't been chanting the "best defense is a good offense" mantra <a href="http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm">for years now</a>...

I've been under the impression this was strictly foreign policy. Are you saying "we" are targets of these men also?

I can remember being patted down EVERY time I went to concerts at the Spectrum or Tower. I don't think it was my sexy body that prompted it.:D

Hmmm.

The idea that a phone can be tapped or a computer searched without any kind of judicial review, even after the fact, is very troubling. Yes, if there is an imminent threat, actions should be allowed for in an emergency, and they always have been. But now a judge may never get involved.

Who watches the watchers?

So because they feed you in jail and give you a book and an issue of clothing, it's ok to detain you on no charges for almost two years?

Wow, I must have missed the part in the 5th Amendment about parting gifts.

Yes, the 5th specifically allows exemptions for war and other emergencies. But almost 2 years? And they were released without being charged.

The 5th or any other part of our constitution does not apply to them. As a matter of fact, if they had their way, the constitution would be a historical relic of a former country.

What kind of insanity is this? In what court would you charge them? Maybe the Belgian courts where they charged Tommy Franks with being a war criminal?

Look, I'll guarantee you this: if there is *another* 9/11 style attack in the US, that's when you'll have your permanent change to deal with, and afterwards Patriot I will look like a ban on chewing gum.

At the end of the day the honorable opposition -- whichever side you think that is -- is only as powerful as the American public lets them be.

I really don't think you join the al Qaeda or Taliban looking for a bridge club to play cards with. Two years for, at the very least, aiding the enemy? They got off light. These people are thugs who want to kill you.

In some kind of court. If a soldier is taken prisoner during a war, he is returned after the war is over. If a person commits crimes during war, he is tried, convicted, and imprisoned.

We are witnessing some kind of muddled version mixture of the two where combatants and anyone in the vicinity who might have been a combatant are scooped up and examined for close to two years to prove their innocence, then when it is exhaustingly clear that they are completely innocent, they are given a package and returned. Compounding the issue is the fact that some of these men are citizens of countries we consider allies.

If its not a military court, and its not a civilian court, and its not even a tribunal, what is it?

I want some degree of safety, but I also do not want my government to go to extreme lengths to guarantee my safety in the short term with implications for the long term.

I don't think that was the case at all. They were guilty. They were detained to find out what they knew about the rest of Osama's organization. Were the situation reversed, our boys would have simply been tortured then killed. These prisioners were treated much better than they could have been and many would say, should have been.

Every one is stupid, not only withe man
 

I think we can not judge one people if he/she is stupid by one's skin color. Maybe there are the same chracters in the same skin people. But it is difficult to summrize them in one word.

hey if anyone can give me a link to convos with michale moore and hunter s thompson i would really appreciate it, thanks

Charges?? Levy, who the fuck brings charges against POWs?? I'll tell you who, and in big letters so it will penetrate the milky fog that makes up the bulk of your understanding of this matter: NOFUCKINGBODY CHARGES POWs WITH LAWBREAKING. EVER. Not within any credible body of law. North Vietnam tried it, to universal sniggering and disparagement. Also to zero prosecution. It wasn't good enough even for a Communist show trial; it failed to clear even a bar that lowly set.

I am, of course, begging the question of whether these are POWs within the letter of the law -- they are getting POW treatment as a matter of policy, and that seems to me right.

No, it's not remotely as bad as Stupid White Men would have it: after all, I, a reasonably bright white male, am bright enough never to buy any product Michael Moore has ever put out, and am unlikely ever to become stupid enough to do so in the future. If I were as stupid is Moore would have me be, I might have bought a ticket to his most recent movie.

Too bad, Michael. Now go on a fucking diet and learn to dress like you did it in a lit room.

I would like to announce that Michael Moore is fat, and doesn't dress well.

And these and other things are to his shame -- but then, somebody whose primary visible motivation is resentment sends up red flags. Resentment is against-motivation; what the hell do you have for a for-motivation? That's always the test I have for somebody's evident philosophy of life.

This is the fundamental reason I keep clashing and throwing sparks with Marichiko and TW. From what I see, it is their resentments that drive them.

And from a calm clear-thinking non-judgemental individual like you this is of course the most damning accusation of all.
:lol2:

The nattering nabobs of negativism.

5 points for who said it.
10 points for who wrote it.

You just did.

Agnew
Safire

Too easy with the web, though I did remember the former from my youth.

Truer words were never spoken. I am, after all, urbane. Those two's damnation is of their own making. They could do better; yet they will not.

I'm pleased to see that sufficiently stimulating you with a 2x4 between the eyes is producing well crafted thinking at last. Guess I'm getting the wrist technique properly down.

Guess if I'm smiling, Rich.

You're wrist technique is lovely.....but you really should be doing that in private. :eyebrow:

You are wrist technique is.... ??? Jesus Hexametrous Christ, Bruce! You can write better English than that!

If you don't want to see me spooge right into BS'er Rich's eye, for his sins, you're at liberty to turn your back. I'll still have as much fun, but I'm under no illusions as to how riveting the spectacle might be. Rather a train wreck -- and isn't the Anna Nicole Show still on in syndication?